Thank you for your reply! Yes, I agree with you concerning trying a new mattress after an injury. No mattress would receive a fair evaluation! I am almost fully recovered (enough to lift weights and work on my stairmaster) but have slight back and hip “twinges” and soreness during the day. And smart for you to point out that no injury is the same!
I have flipped the Zenhaven to the “softer” side but continue to wake up with stiffness and soreness every morning. Also oddly I am not only sore in my lower back, but also hips and upper back. It is difficult for me to even move for the first 30 minutes when I arise in the morning, but then it goes away. When I first lie down at night, the mattress feels fine and I seem to sleep ok (back and side) waking several times at night as I always do to turn over.
In regards to your great idea of adding the topper, I unfortunately gave it away after receipt of the mattress. (wanted a fresh start! lol)
Zenhaven has been very responsive and not only sent someone to “flip” the mattress twice, but now are sending me a free latex topper. They have also extended my trial period to 170 days which is unbelievable!
Finally, my plans are to try the topper and then if not better return the mattress and start over following your guidelines. And I appreciate your comments regarding everyone else’s opinion. You know we all want someone to indicate which mattress is best for us, when we need to put some effort in! I also think I may be trying too hard to make the Zenhaven work since from all information provided, it should have been perfect for me! Again, thanks for all of your assistance!
Hi sdianne.
Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it.
I am sorry to hear that you are still waking up throughout the night and experience pains and morning discomfort. Even though Zenheaven by itself does not meet your specific comfort/support needs I am glad that they are so responsive and that they are sending you a topper and that they offered to extend the trial period. This may be all you need to hopefully get things right and get many restful nights.
This sounds like a good plan and in case you need to do a hard reset and find another system the personal experience you gained in the process is the most reliable way to understand your body’s needs and most likely will help you to find a mattress that is a good “match” for you as no “theory at a distance” can be as informative as your personal experience.
You may wish to read Post #3 here which will walk you through how to track down the cause of the back pains you are experiencing.
I look forward to any updates you may wish to share with us.
I or any of our Expert Members of the site look forward to assist you in any way we can.
Phoenix
Good morning Phoenix!
I received the topper yesterday and last night was my first good sleep in a long time and most importantly very little soreness this morning! This may be the answer! I would have never guessed that I would like a “softer” feel but apparently so. Thankfully, I now have 50 days to decide if this is my mattress. Again, thanks for all of your help!
This is great news. 
I am glad that it arrived before the new year and that you slept so well and like the feel of it. Good have a new topper for a Happy New Year!
I hope that you continue to sleep well, and thank you for the kind words.
I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback about your mattress/topper combo once you’ve had the change to sleep on it for a while
Phoenix
Hi, I’m in the market for a new mattress, and based on my research I’d like to try a latex mattress. After looking at multiple local and online options, I’ve narrowed it down to Sleep on Latex or Zenhaven, and I’m having difficulty deciding between the two. I’d appreciate any advice that folks here could offer. (Note: I’m side sleeper with a preference for medium firmness, which means I’d probably choose the “soft” 9" SOL or use the “luxury plush” side of the Zenhaven.)
Both mattresses are supposed to be very good, and both companies receive high marks for customer service. I have some history of lower back pain, and I think either mattress could be comfortable and supportive. As I see it, the main advantage of SOL is the lower price ($999 for a 9" queen soft, versus $1899 for a queen Zenhaven). On the other hand, while I think there’s a good chance I’d find SOL comfortable, I feel a little more confident about the Zenhaven. This is based largely on the fact that I’ve found more positive reviews online for the Zenhaven (both professional reviews and customer reviews on third-party sites like goodbed.com). SOL also receives good reviews, but there aren’t as many of them. Also, it seems like the construction of the Zenhaven might be a little higher quality (e.g. I’ve read about the Zenhaven having “5-zoned construction”, which is supposed to increase comfort). Finally, the Zenhaven might be a bit more durable (due to its Talalay latex), and the white glove delivery service is a plus.
Does anyone on the forum have any thoughts or insights that might help me come to a decision?
(Note to administrator: please feel free to split this post into a separate topic. I’m new to The Mattress Underground, and I couldn’t figure out how to create a new topic, so I am replying under a related topic instead.)
Hi boston_ma.
Welcome to our Mattress Forum!
Just about everyone who came to this site wrestled with a similar situation and a final choice between good and good. Both of the mattresses you are considering would use good quality and durable materials with no “weak links” in their design, as I think you’re already aware, as you have a preference for latex.
Even though you are considering two products that are using good quality and durable materials the final decision, as you already discovered, may not be always easy to make as it involves a combination of objective, subjective and also intangible personal factors. I would strongly suggest that you have a good conversation with each of the online manufacturers you are considering as this can play a big role in which direction you will be leaning. Another look at your finalists from the point of view of your "personal value equation"along with the expertise and recommendations from the conversation with each of the manufacturers would most likely give you enough clues to make an informed decision. The good news is that either way it would be difficult to make a mistake.
As you are a side sleeper you can probably do well with either of the comfort options you mentioned. Only you can feel what you feel on a mattress or decide which one you would most likely prefer and that you believe is likely to be the best match for you based on your preferences and testing.
The consensus with some of the more knowledgeable people in the industry who tried the Zenheaven and with whom I spoke say the product tends to run a little bit on the firmer side as opposed to their word description of the plushness, but of course even with industry experts we have to take into consideration that it is a personal preference and opinion and that only your testing will be the most reliable way to determine suitability.
Price is certainly part of your personal value equation, but again this is something that only you can decide based on all other variables that are important to you.
Reviews certainly can be helpful in learning about the reputation of a company (assuming the reviews are legitimate) and how responsive these companies are to questions or concerns, but otherwise I wouldn’t give them too much credence.
I would advise against review counting or in general using online reviews for any meaningful analysis of a product. Fortunately you already selected two quality products however I would keep in mind that the “review industry” has very aggressive ways of reaching and persuading the consumer. Because reviews have become so “important” in today’s online market they have gained a false aura of legitimacy and while they may not be the cause of the problem … many mattress companies are well aware of their ability to influence people and change buying habits and certainly take full advantage of the market mindset and target the consumer that pays significant attention to them so they are really just taking advantage of a “reality” that they know will sell mattresses for them.
I had numerous conversations with Karl ,the owner of Sleep On Latex and, he always impressed me with the integrity and stand he takes. They do not believe in "sales most of them are fake …“a product is only worth what is worth” and although they recognize that the general direction is to condition consumer behavior and encourage the “sales thinking” all the sales discounts are in effect built into the cost of the product, and in some cases that includes the cost of manipulating end user or the “professional reviewers”. Any of the Sleep on Latex reviews on their site or anywhere else are genuine with no encouragements or incentives. They are also not associated with any review sites which may account for the low numbers you are mentioning.
Latex in general is the most durable of all the foam materials (latex foam, memory foam, polyfoam) regardless of whether it is Dunlop or Talalay or is made from natural rubber, synthetic rubber, or a blend of both. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in
post #6 here ~ but the choice between different types and blends of latex is more of a preference and budget choice than a “better/worse” choice.
Zenheaven’s 100% NR Talalay from Talalay Global is a good and durable foam. The Luxury Plush Side of 1.5" 5-Zone Natural Talalay has (N1 – 14-20 ILD latex) and there are many in the industry, including one of the largest manufacturers of Talalay latex in the world, who believe that in the very softest ILD’s, Talalay latex that is made completely of NR (natural rubber) may not be quite as durable or resistant to impressions as the blended version of Talalay latex in spite of the fact that it would still have greater durability than other commonly used foams. This is because Talalay latex is lighter and less dense by nature than either Dunlop latex or firmer Talalay.
It is true that softer latex (which is generally less dense) would be a little less durable than a firmer latex (which will be a higher density) especially in the upper most layers of the mattress where it undergoes the most mechanical stress, but again I would also keep in mind that all latex is durable material compared to other types of foam and any difference in durability between different types of latex is not meaningful.
Zoning systems can certainly be useful and well worth considering for people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right “balance” between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and the additional posts it links to but the only way to know whether any specific mattress (zoned or otherwise) will be a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP will be based on careful testing or your own personal experience.
As you already know Sleep On Latex is one of the manufacturing Trusted Members of this site and like all the members here I think very highly of and consider them to be among the “best of the best” in the industry. They are very knowledgeable and always ready to guide their customers to make the best possible choice.
I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding … and of course any additional comments or questions you may have along the way that I or any of the Expert members of the site can help with.
Phoenix
I was desperately trying to get rid of my Loom & Leaf firm mattress, which was giving me mid back pains (I assume that its support core was not firm enough and that made me slouch while sleeping on my back - thus the pain), registered for this site and was impressed by the level of research and knowledge demonstrated by the members here.
I’ve read through the various posts and guides for how to select a mattress, and came to a decision that memory foam was just not for me.
And so I’ve bought the Sleep On Latex firm, assuming that latex will prove more supportive and less “sink-y” than memory foam. While that is correct, I find myself having back pain and slouching in bed while sleeping on my back or my side, and now I’m just disheartened. I was living in Nepal for a few years and slept there on thin foam mattresses positioned on a plywood base - is there a mattress I could buy which will be truly firm and support my very average frame (6’', 150lbs), is Zenhaven the answer?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated - I am waking up every day for weeks now from back pain, that takes a while to dissipate after getting up, and moving around; frist from the Loom & Leaf, and now from the SOL.
Hi NIS2018.
Welcome to our Mattress Forum!
Thank you for your appreciation.
I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing back pains with the SOL mattress. Issues with “pain” and the “slouching” that you describe are usually alignment (deep support) related. Sleep on Latex is using Dunlop latex in their mattresses, which is a very durable and supportive material that is not prone to sagging or deep impressions that could create the “slouching” you are mentioning when lying upon the mattress. You did not mention if you have the 7" or the 9" version, but either way this will generally be considered a very firm product and even high BMI individuals sleeping on their back would not experience “slouching”.
The misalignment that you are noticing in a product that is generally accepted as a very firm latex would point towards excessive sagging that could be caused by a foundation or support piece underneath the product that is giving way and not supportive enough. You did not mention what you have the product on, but you may wish to investigate this and place the mattress on the floor for few nights to see if it is any different. Of course keep in mind that everyone’s individual sensitivities are different and that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on the mattress.
I would not venture yet into looking for another product unless you investigate and pinpoint what may cause the issue you are experiencing with your current mattress. Usually lessons not learned have a way of repeating themselves and you may be better off to take your time and understand the nature of your issue before going in a different direction.
There are also some general guidelines as to what tends to cause back pain in post #2 here that you may find helpful.
I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback once you’ve the chance to investigate this a bit more.
Phoenix
Phoenix, thank you so much for your extremely thoughtful response! Based on your feedback, I have decided to give Sleep on Latex a try. While I still think Zenhaven would be a very good option, it doesn’t seem like it’s necessarily higher-quality, more durable, or more likely to be a good fit for my needs than Sleep on Latex. Also, based on my research, Sleep on Latex seems like a company that I would feel very good about supporting (and this was reinforced by your comments). I’ll report back about my experience once I’ve tried the SOL mattress for a while.
Hi boston_ma.
Thanks for your appreciative comments.
I am glad to see that you are doing your due diligence and base your decision on more in-depth research. Just make sure to double-check that whatever end up choosing you have the product placed on a flat firm surface
Good luck and I look forward to your future updates.
Phoenix
Re the flat surface, I want to add here a word of warning about Zenhaven’s foundation.
I bought a Zenhaven mattress. It’s on the soft side, as mattresses go (I quickly flipped it to the “firm” side, which is still pretty soft), but the bigger problem I had is that within 2-3 months, it was sagging. Like, you had to roll uphill to get to the middle of the bed, sleeping in a hammock type sagging. I was appalled, because latex really really really shouldn’t do that. (I mean, nothing should do that so quickly, but especially not latex.)
Fortunately, their customer service is great and they have a 120-day return policy, so that’s all good. But as I was taking the mattress off the bed to prepare for the pickup tomorrow, I took a look at the foundation (which I bought from them with the mattress):
I was appalled enough at that to measure. Those are 1.5" slats with EIGHT INCHES of gap between them. (For comparison, I measured my other foundations: The Sleep-EZ one is 2.5" slats with 2.5" gaps; the Savvy Rest one is 5" slats with 2.5" gaps.)
The fabric on top is relatively thick, so it seems like they’re trying to use the tension in the fabric as the primary support for the mattress, but… no surprise, that didn’t hold up well, and easily was pushed into the gaps.
I honestly think this terrible foundation is responsible for 90% of the problems I had with the mattress – the “rolling uphill to the center” feeling makes sense now (it’s a king with a split foundation, so the center of the bed was actually properly supported), as does the sagging. Setting the mattress on the floor, it feels much better than it did on that foundation.
I still think the mattress was softer than I wanted, but there’s a real chance that if I had put it onto a better foundation, I would have ended up being satisfied with it. I’m sort of shocked that Zenhaven would ship a foundation like this that is almost guaranteed to make their product perform poorly. If you buy a Zenhaven mattress, I strongly recommend getting your foundation somewhere else.
Hi mkozlows.
Clearly, the picture tells us something is amiss. In looking at the Zenhaven specs on their website, Latex Mattress - Zenhaven Natural Latex Mattress | Saatva, the description of the foundation does not provide any information about the contents. They describe the foundation as an - 8.75" Profile or 4.75" Low Profile Waterfall Pedestal Foundation. There is no additional explanation or definition of a “pedestal” foundation. However, this term has been used to describe a mattress foundation that is made of a fabric covered wire grid stapled to a wood frame base. The more common term is a “semi-flex” foundation, which is a standard product of most mattress manufacturers. Zenhaven’s mattress is contract manufactured by 20+ different mattress companies across the US. The same applies to the foundation. It looks, by the appearance in the picture you provided, that the foundation may be upside down, as semi-flex foundations have a wood frame bottom and cloth bottom cover that would resemble the surface in your picture. I suggest you send the picture to Zenhaven and ask them to explain it to you. It is very unlikely that the picture is Zenhaven’s “normal” foundation. It is also very likely that the surface has contributed to the problem you have been having with the mattress.
Phoenix
Sorry to interject but I’ve actually spoken with a manager at Zenhaven about this in the past… agree with Phoenix and my first thought as well was that it may be upside down because their foundation is supposed to be completely flat with a thin layer of foam on top of some cardboard paneling (underneath the non-slip cover of course). The picture seems to show what the bottom side of such a foundation would look like. The mattress may feel completely different on the floor or a solid foundation so the situation is unfortunate, assuming the return is now completed.
mkozlows,
This is a “standard” wood foundation, more commonly used in the “traditional innerspring” part of the industry. It isn’t upside down (the bottom wouldn’t look like this), and many companies are now simply placing posture pads and the like over the wood top deck of slats instead of cardboard to eliminate noise and improve breathability. Saatva (Zenhaven) has different licensees around the country producing their products, and it appears that in the case of this licensee they are shipping a foundation using interior construction which they also probably use for other SKUs coming out of their factory. Every mattress brand sets their own parameters for what is and isn’t appropriate for foundation support and construction under their mattresses, and I can’t speak for the minimum specifications that Saatva arranges for production of said foundations with their licensees. However, I would agree with many of the comments here that closer slat spacing (often prescribed around 3" or less between slats) would be much more appropriate for heavier items such as latex and many memory foam and heavier hybrid mattresses using little to no foam as a base layer.
It’s too bad you still don’t have the mattress and could test it on the floor to see if this indeed was the issue with your comfort preference. Most with whom I’ve spoken tend to regard this mattress as a bit of a “firmer” item (of course there are large personal preferences involved in comfort choices), so your comments of it being too soft, along with the sag and higher in the center issue, would seem to bolster your assumption about the foundations. But that’s only speculative without me being in front of the product and your frame support network to provide a more detailed evaluation.
Good luck on your next purchase!
Yeah, it’s all gone, so I can’t check to be sure, but when I took them off the bed, I did turn them upside down, and nothing about seeing them that way made me think that they’d been put on the wrong way. Going from memory, the other side was a thin black fabric (the kind you see on the underside of furniture) and was gappier, if anything. I’m pretty sure I would have noticed if there had been a solid bed of slats on that side.
I did briefly lie on the mattress on the floor, and there wasn’t any sagging, so I do think the foundation was the cause of that. But even without the foundation, it really is a soft mattress – I’ve read the “regarded as firmer” comments on here before, and I wonder what the comparison was.
Because I know that numbers aren’t everything, but in this case they feel about right to me: The soft side had a 1.5" layer rated for 14-20 ILD, and then underneath that a 3" layer rated for 25-30. The firm side had a top layer rated at 20-25 ILD, and then a support layer underneath of 30-35. And all of those are Talalay.
I ultimately replaced this with a Sleep-EZ mattress (which I’m happy with so far, we’ll see how it goes after longer use). If you look at the latex that Sleep-EZ uses, their soft is an 18-20 ILD and medium is 30-32. So three of those layers on the Zenhaven are all softer than Sleep-EZ’s medium. If I tried to replicate the Zenhaven, I couldn’t get that close, but I’d end up with a soft/medium/soft all-Talalay setup, probably, and suspect that’d emulate the feel pretty well.
The softness isn’t really a complaint as such – I think that level of softness is going to be good for a lot of people (and some people will want even softer) – but I definitely think that by the standards of all-latex mattresses, it’s not anything you’d call firm.
(My old latex bed, a queen that’s now in the guest bedroom, is a Savvy Rest, and that one I would 100% call “firmer.” It’s all Dunlop, and even though I have it layered as soft/soft/medium, it rates 22-30 as “soft” and 31-39 as “medium”, and feels firmer than the numbers, probably due to the Dunlop.)
My response regarding that was to another poster on the forum who suggested they might have been made upside down. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, that would be correct for the type of foundation provided. The black dust cover would conceal a head to toe beam, and perhaps two small side brace beams.
In your situation, this was most likely a culprit. It’s unclear if this is the same foundation shipped from all of the different licensees throughout the country.
It really is subjective and depends upon frame of reference, previous style of mattress being used, familiarity with different latex mattress configurations, somatotype, mass, sensitivity, and so on. Personally I find this product to be a bit “firmer” and desire more comfort materials, the amount of which are limited a bit by the two-sided design. It’s not to say that there is anything at all wrong with the quality of the latex used (there isn’t) - it just points out the huge individual variation in perception of comfort.
I’m glad you like your new SleepEZ mattress!
Hi Jeff.
Thanks for jumping in… I greatly appreciate it!
Your valuable contributions and high level expertise has helped numerous consumer visitors over the years both on TMU and your own Beducation® site and channel (Look forward to Beducation®’s upgraded programs and content…… Good Luck!)
BTW… I love the new Beducation® logo.
Phoenix
Hi mkozlows,
I’m glad you were able to check and confirm the foundation construction (and try the mattress on the floor as well)… just waned to rule out any possibility of that being the case like Phoenix mentioned in the initial response. When I spoke with them, Zenhaven swore up and down that all of their foundations were made to spec, with cardboard and a thin layer of foam, regardless of the manufacturer, so not sure what happened in this case.
As Jeff indicated, the underside of those foundations are usually a “black dust cover” often stapled to the bottom. It’s too bad that particular licensee/manufacturer shipped a foundation which in my opinion, would be a poor option for virtually any mattress, let alone latex (though it might do the job for a mattress with a stiff polyfoam base layer). Unfortunately, in addition to semi-flex/wire grid foundations, these types of constructions with or without cardboard have been by far the most prevalent in my region, although I did come across one that used both cardboard and a posture/fiber pad (solid and quiet but limited breathability). Hopefully more manufacturers across the country will move towards solid slats spaced closer together so that only a pad is required. This may already be the case as I found a good foundation a couple of years ago (so haven’t been looking)… Jeff would know better than me since he works in the industry every day
Hope things work out for you!
Manimal
Is there an update on this foundation?
I’ve had the slight sensation of having to roll up to the edge of the Zenhaven and being pulled towards the middle of the bed. I can just ever so faintly see the bow in the mattress. This post made me check my foundation and it is definitely wood slats placed 8" across and covered with some fabric. It is NOT upside down…the bottom is JUST fabric, no slats.
There doesn’t appear to be any sort of cross piece…which might explain why my bed is sagging towards the middle just a bit. The slats are on top, and then there is some sort of surface underneath them that appears to span the whole bed. Feels like cardboard or thin wood, maybe?
The sensation is slight but it does irk me a bit…I didn’t think to look at the foundation til this post! I am still in the return window for the mattress and am gathering as much information as I can to justify that decision and go into the next one better informed.
What is the lightest that unblended talalay can be made in? The ZH rep told me the topper was a 7 ILD “but he didn’t really know.” I’m just guessing it’s unblended talalay since that’s their whole schtick but they also used polyester instead of organic cotton so there’s a chance it’s blended, too. I can pinch it to almost nothing, it’s equal to or lighter than anything I’ve seen in our local store, which I know carries down to 19.
I’m using this topper as a way to convey to the reps what is and isn’t working for me for the next purchase so it would be good to know!
Thank you!