Phoenix,
In your opinion, what is the main difference between a 10 inch latex mattress with either 6+3 or 3 - 3 inch layers?
Will there be a difference in feel of the two? Are there certain factors which make one better than the other?
Hi mattressseeker,
There would be little if any practical difference between two 3" support layers and a single 6" support layer if they were all the same type and blend of latex and the same ILD and were inside a tight fitting cover with 3" inches of latex of the same ILD on top of them. Two 3" layers would respond a little more independently and because the elasticity of the top 3" wouldn’t be connected and “pulling back” on the bottom 3" when it compresses and “in theory” it may act a little bit softer but in practical and real life terms most people wouldn’t notice any difference in terms of performance or firmness. If a single 6" core with a 3" comfort layer was a good match for you in terms of PPP then there would be little benefit in having multiple 3" layers that were the equivalent ILD.
Also in “theory only” … two 3" layers that were exactly the same ILD as a single 6" layer could be less durable over the course of a long lifetime because they will act more independently and abrade each other slightly but I don’t think that any difference would be significant or even measurable in “real life” terms and the other factors that affect durability (see post #4 here) such as the firmness of the layers would play a much bigger role. It certainly wouldn’t be a concern of mine.
Multiple layers would have more options for fine tuning though both before and after a purchase because for example a support core with a medium over firm layer would be a little firmer than a medium layer and a little softer than a firm layer (closer to the medium) and you would also have the option to rearrange the layers to firm over medium which would still be in between a medium and firm 6" layer but closer to the firm. You could also use the softer top layer in the middle to create a firmer feel compared to having the soft on top. The main advantage of having more layers in other words is that for those who need it it can provide more options to customize the layer combinations either before a purchase or by rearranging or exchanging layers after a purchase. While this is attractive to some people … it can also add some complexity that may not be necessary or may not justify any extra costs involved in having more layers for others.
Outside of a mattress with more layers having more options to customize the mattress, if a mattress is a good match for you then one isn’t inherently any better than the other.
Phoenix
As far as durability is concerned, I completely agree that a single 6-inch support core will be greater than two 3-inch cores of the same material and density. I’ll also point out that because the exact density of Dunlop latex within the same ILD range can vary from one piece to another, and usually increases in density from top to bottom within a single piece as well, two 3-inch cores even of the “same ILD” might behave unpredictably compared to a single 6-inch core.
With two 3-inch pieces, you may not have the top and bottom half of the same 6-inch piece of latex. You might get two tops, two bottoms, or the top of one and the bottom of another. Furthermore, even if you do get both halves of the same whole, it may no be that easy to discern which half is which. The orientation and placement of each individual piece as well as the order in which the two pieces are stacked with respect to one another can have a significant effect on how they interact with one another and a noticeable effect on the feel of the mattress as a whole.
In my original question however, I was not referring to two 3-inch pieces of the same ILD vs. a single 6-inch piece of the same latex. In such a case I know what I would do. What I was asking is if I’m looking for the feel of an 8" or 9" mattress with 2-3 inches of 19-ILD NR Talalay over 6 inches of 36-40 ILD NR Dunlop is there a specific advantage to using 3 inches of 34-36 ILD over 3 inches of 40-44 ILD that would outweigh any durability advantage of using a single 6-inch 36-40 ILD core?
For instance, there is no major difference between 36-ILD and 40-ILD. So in both cases it would be soft over firm. Is it possible however that because the delta between the top layer and the top of the middle layer in a three-layer design is smaller than the delta between the top layer and average density of the core layer in a two-layer design, the comfort layer would interact more with the support layer in the former than in the latter? In other words, for a side-sleeper like myself, would a three-layer design in which the two bottom layers are both much firmer than the comfort layer SOFT/FIRM/X-FIRM, work better with a 2-inch comfort layer than a 3-inch top of the same ILD? And likewise, will the two-layer design SOFT/FIRM work best with a 3-inch comfort layer?
Hi papalion,
In any practical terms there really wouldn’t be any meaningful difference in durability between two 3" layers and a single 6" core if all of them were the same type and blend of latex and the same firmness level.
Having the top and bottom half of the same core wouldn’t be important and even the ILD of different 6" cores with the same firmness rating can vary between different cores to some degree (and it will vary more with some types of latex than with others … see post #6 here) but these types of considerations would make choosing a mattress much more complex than it needs to be and in most cases they wouldn’t make enough difference to be meaningful for most people anyway…
Questions about “feel” are much too subjective and relative to each person to provide any meaningful answer. If the only difference between two mattresses were the relatively small differences in ILD you are mentioning some people may feel a difference when they lie on a mattress and some people wouldn’t and some people may feel a difference when they wake up in the morning (after sleeping on the mattress over the whole course of the night) and some people wouldn’t. I certainly wouldn’t consider a relatively small difference in ILD to be a significant enough durability factor to use durability as a basis for choosing one over the other and I would focus on choosing a mattress and layering combination that was the best “match” for you in terms of PPP.
I think you may be getting overinvolved in some of the finer details of mattress design and theory and I would keep in mind that mattress design and theory is more of an “art” than an exact science. The most likely outcome of this type of analysis can be information overload and “paralysis by analysis”.
You are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and individual preferences and sensitivities involved to be able to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict how a combination of layers will feel to you or to make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components would be the best “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing or personal sleeping experience … hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
Unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and specs and different layering combinations and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you … I would tend to avoid using ILD numbers or other complex specs to try and predict how a mattress will feel for you and focus more on your own actual testing and experience or if you can’t test a mattress in person then a more detailed phone conversation with an online manufacturer or retailer. If you try to become an “expert” in mattress theory and design it could take you years to learn enough to design your own mattress using specs that can be more complex than you may realize and I would focus more on your own testing which “bypasses” the need to know anything about specs at all or alternatively talking to knowledgeable and experienced manufacturers or retailers who already know what you would otherwise need to learn before you would be able to choose a mattress.
Phoenix
ADMIN NOTE: This post was originally a reply to post #4 here but was split into a new topic of it’s own.
This is such good info. Thank you.
A few further q’s:
There are two models that we really like so far of latex mattresses.
The first has a 6" firm core, a 3" soft middle layer and a 2" medium top layer.
I’ve been told that 6" talalay King size latex does not come in one continuous slab, but rather 2 twin longs. We are concerned about feeling the crack b/w the two pieces. First of all, do you know of anyplace that sells a continuous king size slab of talalay? And second, do you think the crack will be felt? (esp considering we’re planning on putting two layers on top of the 6"). Thirdly, this bed at Healthy Choice is beyond our budget, and the closest one we found online is Arizona Premium. But they only have the 2" in soft, and the 3" soft or medium. I’m thinking 6" firm, 3" medium and 3" soft might be the closest we can come to the Healthy Choice mattress we liked, but not sure if the 3" would feel a lot different from the 2" layer.
The second model we like is:
3x3" layers: medium on the bottom, firm in the middle, and soft on top.
What do you think about these two combos?
Is there any science/ insight into these “non traditional” arrangements? Of course, it felt amazing so we could just go by that, but since most other mattresses we tried were firm on the bottom, medium in the middle, and soft on top, we’re looking to understand why these other two combos were so comfortable. We tried to test our posture alignment following your instructions, but couldn’t really see it so we’re really just deciding based on comfort. We’ve tried a few stores in person and feel like it’s time to make a decision, hopefully without going back to a store.
i’ve heard from some stores that their assemble it yourself latex mattresses shift a little in the mattress cover and need to be jiggered a little, perhaps every month. while Arizona Sleep says their mattress cover is a little bit smaller than the latex pieces and fits very snug, and there’s no shifting. so i’m inclined to buy from them, but wondering if anyone has had positive/negative experiences with the foam shifting or not.
thank you!!!
Hi September,
I switched your post into a new topic with a more appropriate title because your questions are different from the original topic.
There are some comments here about the pros and cons of split layers in post #2 here but you won’t be able to feel a “crack” in between the bottom layer of a mattress if they are inside a suitable cover.
There is also more information about glue seams in Talalay latex in post #2 here. It’s certainly possible to order a mattress with a solid 6" latex layer on the bottom (and a manufacturer could probably glue split layers together for you) but it would generally be much more costly to ship because it would require shipping with a common carrier rather than with a courier. You could also have a solid 2" or 3" comfort layer that was glued together as well in the upper layers of the mattress (which can be shipped by courier) which would remove any possibility of feeling a split layer in the deeper layers of the mattress. You would also lose some of the flexibility of having a side to side split in the mattress where you can customize each side independently.
There is more about the different ways that one mattress can “match” or approximate another one in post #9 here. If the type and blend of latex, all the layer thicknesses, and all the layer firmnesses are all the same in both mattresses and they both have a similar cover then they would be very closely comparable in terms of firmness, “feel” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) but every layer and component will have “some effect” on every other layer in the mattress so once there are differences between the specs of two mattresses then they would no longer be the same. In some cases the differences may be small enough that some people wouldn’t feel them (and you will feel more of the differences between layer firmness and thickness in layers that are closer to the sleeping surface) but others that are more sensitive to smaller changes certainly could so the only way to know for certain how two different mattresses compare in terms of firmness, feel, and PPP for you will be based on your own personal experience.
While your own careful testing or personal experience is the most reliable way to know whether a mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort and PPP (or is a reasonable approximation of another mattress) … when you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart (which would certainly include Arizona Premium) and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.
I would also keep in mind that Arizona Premium is a manufacturer so they may also be able to custom build a mattress that has the same layering as your reference mattress. As you probably know Arizona Premium is one of the members of this site which means that I think very highly of them and I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency.
There is more information about the 3 most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase to “fine tune” a mattress or the exchange/return options that are available to you).
The first “rule” of mattress shopping is to remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
While I can’t speak to how a mattress will feel for someone else or how two mattresses will compare in terms of comfort and PPP … outside of PPP (which is all about how well you will sleep on a mattress) the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is it’s durability and a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality and durability of the materials inside it (which is all about how long you will sleep well) regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label.
Since all the mattresses you are considering are “all latex mattresses” … none of them have any lower quality materials or weak links that would compromise durability and if they are using the same type and blend of latex then they would be closely comparable in terms of durability. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here.
A S/F/M combination would have a little bit firmer sleeping surface for most people and would also be a little more “supportive” with the firm layer in the middle instead of on the bottom and this is a combination that is often used with component mattresses where someone starts out with a S/M/F layering but finds it is a little bit too soft in terms of support/alignment and the support needs to be “firmed up” a little but there would certainly be no durability issues with this combination and which one is “best” would depend on which one you sleep best on in terms of comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment. Once isn’t inherently better than the other (although S/M/F would be more common).
There is more about glued vs unglued layers and layer shifting in post #2 here but this also generally isn’t an issue because latex is very heavy and “sticky” and doesn’t tend to shift inside a mattress in normal use. If for some reason the layers do shift a little then it’s very easy to zip open the cover and “wave” them back into position again and wouldn’t be much more time consuming or difficult than changing sheets.
Phoenix
papalion,
What did you end up getting? I’m caught between getting a 3" vs a 2" soft comfort layer.
I’m looking to get SOFT/FIRM/XFIRM composition. With the bottom two 3" each. I like the firm supportive layer but also like the softness of the bed, just not sure how thick to go.
Hi johnnyjuice99,
I haven’t heard back from paplion, so I don’t know what configuration, if any, was eventually purchased.
As I think you might be aware, I would tell you to take some caution with any configuration that paplion (or anyone else) chose (assuming we find out), as there are entirely too many unknown variables and individual preferences involved to relates someone else’s configuration to what you might like, but their experiences certainly can be instructive of the process and hopefully you might gain some insight that will be assistive as you go through your own configuration choices.
Phoenix