Adjustable Tension Slats, Zoned Latex, or something else?

That was really helpful, Iā€™ve noticed a pretty noticable change as I just flipped the top layers and waved and stacked them neatly. I wasnā€™t really aware of the weekly break in period so Iā€™ll start doing that a little more to even out the support.

I also just received the New Amsterdam frame from European Sleep Works and itā€™s been a huge upgrade from my old frame. I think thatā€™s how the support was suppose to feel from the beginning.

From here I think itā€™s just maintenance and maybe a pillow wedge to help with my shoulder and other less medically interesting things.

Thanks for all the direction, I seen a panel of doctors through this process and none of them seem to know what to say when Iā€™ve asked about proper back support when sleeping just that I should get a some or a new mattress and then talk to mattress salesperson during this process. Obviously that still leaves a wide gap, so I appreciate your time.

Hi jd,

I think thatā€™s pretty much the norm. Doctors and even chiropractors know lots about backs but in most cases not as much about what to look for in a mattress. Unfortunately most mattress salespeople know even less and you were fortunate to be able to spend some time with Steven and Katie who are much more knowledgeable than most in the industry.

Iā€™m glad things seem to be working better and I hope you have the chance to check in and update us after a little while.

Phoenix

So hereā€™s a follow up itā€™s been about 5 and a half months and Iā€™ve learned quite a bit since I started down the new mattress journey, and some of it has more to do with physiological/medical issues, hyper mobility/congenital laxity on top of the shoulder injuries.

From where I left off a lot has been realized specifically on the on they hypermobility side and that Iā€™m naturally in extension probably more than I should be when standing, that has been very helpful in understanding everything else.

I ended up trying a pillow wedge as I mentioned a while ago, and although it didnā€™t workout I came to some realizations. The cover on the wedge is much softer and more comfortable than the cover on my OMI (Organicpedic) mattress and I think that type of cover is more efficient at getting the best support from the latex. I currently have a low height talalay pillow, when I broke the wedge down and took out the 1" thin bottom layer I covered it and it felt great.

My thinking is I can try replace the cover on the OMI with a stretch knit like you suggested earlier so the latex can do a better job in support or use a low height 1" topper with the same type of cover as the wedge and either way using a medium height pillow or similar to create clearance for the shoulder. Thin topper just to get comfort but prevent shoulders from being pushed out of the joint.

I avoided discussing hips sinking in all of this because the complexity would get a little hairy, but I feel like it might be enough to create good postural alignment for my spine and joints.

Below is a more specific review and explanation of the wedge with my lax joints, I want to point out that if anyone else reads this that itā€™s being hypermobile/congenitally lax that is the problem, the wedge itself probably would have been great otherwise.

Overall, the elevation of the wedge was helpful for breathing, but I donā€™t think I can continue using the wedge. Iā€™ve tried every single way I could think to use it. And maybe youā€™ll run across this again with someone else or already have but, part of my shoulder issues involve hyper mobility/congenital laxity, basically loose joints with a wider range of motion on top of existing injuries. Generally speaking stability of the spine and joints is my biggest need.

What happens when laying on my back is my joints are naturally loose, so for the shoulders the weight of my spine sinks in first into a softer material and then my shoulders do not sink instead stay pushed forward due to the flexibility of the joints, they simply lack stability to stay back easily. While sleeping on my side any extra material under my shoulder push against my shoulder could cause impingement and be pushed slightly forward, this depends on the angles, but that becomes hard to predict during sleep. Hugging a pillow helps as it keep the shoulder down and in a better socket position, but the wedge has stacked layers and although soft they still manage to push my shoulder awkwardly.

As another example if sleep on my back and let one shoulder hang off the wedge, itā€™s actually in a comfortable position, seemingly aligned, so thatā€™s been my problem areas.

Any suggestions are always welcome. Iā€™ve unzipped half the bed for now and will unzip the whole thing for tonight, itā€™s already helped and wish I did it earlier.

I may need to search for a good quality stretch knit cover as Iā€™m not sure if Iā€™ll be able to get one from ESW. Do you think all stretch knit covers are all about the same quality wise, with the difference being if it has quilted wool top, which could be more or less taut with a variable amount of wool? Not sure what direction to go there as I do acknowledge the wool is helpful, but when Iā€™d rather get the best support and comfort if it comes down to it.

The other idea was to get a thin (1" maybe a little more) soft topper which might accomplish a similar level of comfort and support, but not sure if itā€™s more or less ideal it does some to be more practical as itā€™s easier to get the right size and might more predictable or easier to get.

Thanks again I feel like Iā€™m almost there now.

Hi jd,

Thanks for the update and for the detailed comments about some of the issues you are facing and working on. You certainly have your share of ā€œsleeping challengesā€. Of course your issues are too complex and ā€œnuancedā€ to do more than make more generic suggestions on a forum but it seems that you have gone through a steep learning curve and have a good understanding of the underlying causes of the issues you are experiencing.

[quote]What happens when laying on my back is my joints are naturally loose, so for the shoulders the weight of my spine sinks in first into a softer material and then my shoulders do not sink instead stay pushed forward due to the flexibility of the joints, they simply lack stability to stay back easily. While sleeping on my side any extra material under my shoulder push against my shoulder could cause impingement and be pushed slightly forward, this depends on the angles, but that becomes hard to predict during sleep. Hugging a pillow helps as it keep the shoulder down and in a better socket position, but the wedge has stacked layers and although soft they still manage to push my shoulder awkwardly.

As another example if sleep on my back and let one shoulder hang off the wedge, itā€™s actually in a comfortable position, seemingly aligned, so thatā€™s been my problem areas.[/quote]

I have certainly come across issues of shoulders being ā€œslouchedā€ or pushed forward or ā€œhunchedā€ and Iā€™ve mentioned it on a number of occasions (such as here and here). A good way to visualize good alignment of the spine and joints is to imagine floating in the air with good posture and slowly being lowered onto a mattress and if all the different parts of your body ā€œstopā€ at the same time you would generally be in good alignment while if some parts of your body continue sinking after other are ā€œstoppedā€ then you would be out of alignment (see post #6 here). Alignment issues can be from head to toe, from side to side (as in your case with the shoulders being pushed forward) or with rotational alignment where the spine is rotated or twisted.

A couple of things that can help with more difficult alignment issues include a body pillow and an adjustable bed with the legs raised slightly (or a pillow under the knees) can also help to decompress the spine with back sleeping and raising the head slightly can also help with breathing issues.

Unzipping the cover can help the latex to contour and can remove some of the ā€œdrum effectā€ of the cover which can help the wider or lighter parts of the body to sink in more easily and itā€™s good to see that itā€™s helping. When the comfort layers can contour more exactly to the curves of the body it can provide more even support under the different areas of the body where itā€™s needed and can certainly make a difference for some people.

[quote]I may need to search for a good quality stretch knit cover as Iā€™m not sure if Iā€™ll be able to get one from ESW. Do you think all stretch knit covers are all about the same quality wise, with the difference being if it has quilted wool top, which could be more or less taut with a variable amount of wool? Not sure what direction to go there as I do acknowledge the wool is helpful, but when Iā€™d rather get the best support and comfort if it comes down to it.

The other idea was to get a thin (1" maybe a little more) soft topper which might accomplish a similar level of comfort and support, but not sure if itā€™s more or less ideal it does some to be more practical as itā€™s easier to get the right size and might more predictable or easier to get.[/quote]

There will be some differences between different covers in the type and thickness of material they use, their design, and their ability to contour but the component post here has some of the better sources for unquilted knit covers Iā€™m aware of and post #4 here also has a list of the ones that sell stretch knit covers without quilting. I donā€™t have any personal experience with any of them and a conversation with each manufacturer is generally the best source of information about properties and specs of the specific covers they sell. This topic may also be worth reading as well.

The component post also includes some of the better sources Iā€™m aware of for toppers.

Itā€™s been a challenging journey but itā€™s good to see that youā€™ve made such good progress and of course Iā€™m always looking forward to any further updates you have the chance to share.

Phoenix

Thanks so much for the resources and the a really description to help visualize the postural alignment on the mattress.

Iā€™m still testing a few things out, but will follow up when I figure out whatā€™s working best.

Wow just reread this thread, and unfortunately, Iā€™m posting because I havenā€™t found whatā€™s working best yet, so I could still use some help. Thatā€™s not to say for a lack of trying.

One acknowledgment I failed to mention in my last posts were discussing my hips/butt falling into deeply into the layers, which exacerbated my shoulder and is the main culprit of my current problem.

Basically the bed feels closer to a hammock, in that it dips in the middle. Iā€™ve tried a multitude of different options at this point.

Iā€™ve returned the top soft layers to OMI (Organicpedic), they lost them when inspecting them, so they took about month and half to admit this and send me new ones.

During this time I had an older dunlop soft layer from foamorder.com and had them cut it into thinner slices. Since the range was n25-32.5, the cuts went from 1" softest, .5" medium soft, 1.5" medium. Not official firmness, but just an easy way for me to discuss this.

Iā€™ve used every combination known to man, or at least I think I did to place these layers on top of the M F talalay layers with and without a cover.

I came to the conclusion that firmer with a thinner top layer seem to be a little better, but it was because it supported my butt/hips better, dipping wasnā€™t as much of a concern, but after months of trying this and receiving the new Soft layers from OMI, which they said might be a little firmer than before due them being sourced differently.

I read some mattress underground about how I could test zoning, and went to foam underground, bought a small scrap of polyfoam .25" rated 35 ILD, probably about 25"x30" and placed it under the Soft layer to see if it would give me extra support and it did.

Unfortunately it didnā€™t seem to last and as the Soft layer broke in more at the hips than at the head of the layer, causing unbalanced or uneven support from the bottom of the spine to the top of my head, and shortly I started getting a pulling muscle strain at my neck causing headaches. Basically pelvis tilted lower didnā€™t feel good.

I got tired of this and removed the new Soft layers and the polyfoam and put the dunlop 1.5" layer back on and started feeling better, but eventually noticed the dipping again and the dunlop layer tends to feel uneven or lumpy in support compared to the talalay which can trap and position my joints in the wrong place.

So I removed the dunlop and Iā€™m on the M F layers (F is inside of mattress cover M on top ) and while medium is decent, it still dips at my hips. And can be a hit or miss on the shoulder depending on pillow height or position of body.

I put a pillow under my legs to help my back from arching too much and it helps, but this dipping and everything else seems kind of tedious and ridiculous. Iā€™m pretty frustrated at this point part of me is ready to get an ikea mattress, since Iā€™ve slept on firmer coaches and mattresses that were cheaper material wise and didnā€™t dip in the middle so easily or require so much attention, I also slept better on them.

So any guidance here would be greatly appreciated, this has had a seriously negative decline on my health and other aspects of my life.

My experience with OMI (organicpedic) inspection and return left me with a bad taste in my mouth, as there was multiple mix ups and finger pointing but they did replace the layers. Iā€™m at the point were Iā€™m wondering if I should get the medium layer inspected, my guess is if they do theyā€™ll just return it and say itā€™s fine. I donā€™t think it should be dipping that easily, but maybe this is normal for latex? My partner can visibly see my hips dipping into the Medium layer, the firm layer, on itā€™s own, is the only one where my hips were above my body while on my back. Itā€™s pretty frustrating to fix not knowing OMI ILD ranges, as they say wonā€™t say.

So Iā€™m looking for alternatives, ikea being on of them or if thereā€™s more even balanced way to zone what I already have since Iā€™ve only tried to use the polyfoam underneath the soft layer only (SMF), maybe it needs to be done below the medium or firm layer?

Any help is greatly appreciated, sorry for the long post, I was hoping to have good feedback at this point.

Hi jd,

Unfortunately your circumstances are well beyond the limits of complexity that can be easily dealt with on a forum or where I would be able to make any specific suggestions outside of the ones Iā€™ve mentioned in my previous replies and there is no way for me to ā€œdiagnoseā€ mattress issues when there are also complex medical issues involved because there are too many unique unknowns and variables involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or any ā€œsymptomsā€ they experience.

I would also keep in mind that when there are complex health or physiological issues involved that there may be no perfect solution or mattress so ā€œbest possibleā€ may be your most realistic expectation until the underlying physical cause of any symptoms you are experiencing can be healed or reduced.

In looking at the previous posts in the topic though there are a couple of posts that I havenā€™t linked previously that may be helpful ā€¦

There is more detailed information about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.

There is also more about primary or ā€œdeepā€ support and secondary or ā€œsurfaceā€ support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the ā€œrolesā€ of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between ā€œsupportā€ and ā€œpressure reliefā€ and ā€œfeelā€.

These posts are the ā€œtoolsā€ that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your bodyā€™s language and ā€œtranslateā€ what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any ā€œsymptomsā€ you are experiencing.

Quite frankly I am also lost in the amount, details, and complexity of all the information youā€™ve provided and it would be helpful if you could provide a simplified recap of the layering combinations youā€™ve tried (listed from top to bottom in bold) and the specific ā€œsymptomsā€ you experienced on each combination and how they changed (became better or worse) relative to the layering combination you tried before it underneath each combination. The changes in your symptoms with each incremental change in layering combinations are really the only way to assess or guess at whether any changes you make from one combination to the next appear to be moving you in the right direction and to be able to see any ā€œpatternsā€ in your experiences that may help point to a combination that works as well as possible.

This sounds promising and if I was in your shoes I would probably pursue this type of zoning a little further perhaps with a little bit thicker layer of polyfoam and perhaps using more durable higher density polyfoam as well. I think youā€™ve read this already but there is more about zoning in post #11 here and the posts it links to that may also be helpful.

Again though ā€¦ If you can provide more specifics about each layering combination youā€™ve tried and your symptoms on each of them and how they changed relative to the others then I may be able to see some patterns that may point to some additional options that may be worth trying.

Phoenix

Thanks for the fast reply, I would have responded sooner myself, but I thought Iā€™d get an email, so sorry for the long time difference and if I wasnā€™t very clear, I am bit fatigued.

I think itā€™d be easiest to give a brief and only relevant recap, as Iā€™ve tried everything really possible and can reduce down what works and what does not.

OMI (Organicpedic) Talalay 3" layers

Soft - Top
Medium - Middle
Firm - Bottom

Chronology - Current to oldest order
S* M F
1",1.5",2""S* M F
M F

  • Added Polyfoam and or latex to raise hips, more details below.
    **Older 3" Soft Dunlop 25-32ILD which I had cut increments of .5",1", and 1.5".

Currently S M F setup is to soft in the middle section of the bed and causes hips to dip 1" below my forehead, where the head and foot of the bed are firmer.

Since I didnā€™t think I got a reply I decided to take the whole feeling part out of this and really pay attention do the support or the given elevation that the material provides to the body, primarily the spine.

I have real measurements that prove a fairly explicit difference between the body standing up, on the floor and in the bed, The bed is the only one that hyperextends weight into the pelvis and tailbone.

Itā€™s a repeatable process that can be shown on anyone, which I did with my partner, the bed simply is softer and does not support evenly. That could be due to break in of the heaviest spot, but I canā€™t simply lay in pain every night waiting for the rest to break in. So I literally put weight on the head of the bed, when Iā€™m not laying on it to try to even it out. Iā€™ve done this before and it worked, but the problem is that each layer is less supportive/weaker/softer in the middle, not just the top layer, S M F are all an issue.

So I used 35ILD .25ā€™ polyfoam layer cut into 2 pieces and placed over the Firm and Medium layer, this made the top of my waistline almost level with my forehead, which is similar and relative to how I stand. This probably doesnā€™t differ much (.5") from person to person either depending on their posture flexion or extension, which most people are unaware of.

Prior to this I placed a very soft piece of latex 13ILD 1" thick 25"x30", and placed it on top of the soft layer to emulate the position of my waistline on the floor, as Iā€™ve tended to feel better on the floor than in my bed in the back position. This was to test elevation from head to toe, and give me a range from standing to laying on the floor where the forehead and the waistline are. After trying this it felt pretty awesome, but started giving me problems after a few days, I assume my back started feeling better and my pelvis might be a little too high.

So I scrapped the latex and will probably try to find another piece of polyfoam to fine tune and support in the middle layers. The placement of the polyfoam is pretty important from what Iā€™ve noticed as itā€™s relative the what part of the spine you might need more support.

The one thing Iā€™ve noticed is adding the polyfoam makes it firmer, but the latex pressure relief isnā€™t the so good feeling closer to feeling something harder like when someone can feel the slats on the tailbone. The soft latex on top was able to give pressure relief in that scenario, but itā€™s just a little too high and creates some misalignment in my lower extremities since my legs are lower than my hips on my sides.

1",1.5",2""S* M F, M F
Prior to this I stripped off the Soft talalay layer and replaced it with the spliced S dunlop layers in every combination known to man. More importantly 1" which is closer to Medium ILD was helpful, mostly because my body was in better alignment, waist higher than when on soft, same goes for MF. Major difference was the dunlop seems clumpy and the talalay more flat which is better (so joints donā€™t get stuck in bad position) so the M F talalay was ok, just still sank which is how I arrived to my current knowledge and situation.

I just see this as kind of ridiculous for the price, and more importantly from how much itā€™s really taken away from my health.

I am hypermobile, this is an issue yes, but the source of the issues are above, the best analogy for the specific problems dealing with hypermobility or congenital laxity is that the body is actually closer to rubber, so laying on something that is requires support, otherwise the rubber body just sinks where the soft spots are.

That means support is critical and breaking periods like this arenā€™t good, if thatā€™s what it really is.

To be specific to my own situation, I have shoulder injuries sleeping on my shoulder on firmer side of the bed means Iā€™m squishing my shoulder in and wake up in pain more times than not. I abhor this bed.

Hereā€™s another way to think about congenital laxity or rubber body The 13 ILD latex 25ā€™x30" square in the middle was helpful because it created hip elevation on my side so I didnā€™t squeeze my shoulder down on the firmer head of the bed, however since the hips are high the knees weight is left unsupported hanging off the latex square causing knee problems when awake.

Basically Iā€™m looking for even consistent support across the bed at minimum with pressure relief minus squishiness which the Soft layer has. I thought if I added the Soft layer back on and I could fix the middle portion of the bed until the rest of the bed broke in at the head and foot sections, mostly the head section so my shoulder would sink more easily (another reason why I elected to put the Soft back up).

It still seems like a bandaid at the end of the day and Iā€™m not sure if Soft is the right call until something changes.

At this point Iā€™m wondering if this type of dipping is normal for latex or ā€œacceptableā€ and if it is there anything else, other materials that are more consistent until the end. At this point Iā€™d rather have something consistent and supportive than supposedly lasting forever if the first few years are so inconsistent.

I was told organic latex was less consistent than mixed synthetics by the person who sold it to me after going through the process of having OMI examine my soft layer, but in reality just losing it and replacing it with a new one.

Is any of what Iā€™m looking for feasible to do? And is there different materials which are more consistent? And is there any truth to the synthetic being more consistent support wise?

As for my fine tuning experimenting, do you have a quick way to tell what kind of pain means too hard or too soft, specifically at the hips/pelvis region?

Thanks!

Also tried to Bold specific content above like requested and it didnā€™t show up.

On another note. Iā€™m directly on the latex with 2 fitted sheets. Iā€™m not using the zippered mattress cover over the top 2 layers S M, only over the Firm.

Hi jd,

If you subscribe to the topic (you can just click the subscribe button) the forum software will send you an email each time there is a reply.

Iā€™m not sure why it isnā€™t showing up for you but I can see the parts of your post that you bolded. What browser are you using? The bbcode tags work for IE, Firefox, Safari, and Google Chrome and should work for all the most common browsers although I havenā€™t tested all of them.

Iā€™m not clear from your post on each of the specific combinations you tried, the specific symptoms you experienced on each of them, and how your symptoms changed on each of the different combinations compared to the others. Whether a particular combination either ā€œworksā€ or ā€œdoesnā€™t workā€ is much less important and doesnā€™t provide the type of information I would need to make any meaningful suggestions. Itā€™s the ā€œchangesā€ in your experience with different combinations that can provide the ā€œcluesā€ that I look for.

My understanding is that you purchased the OMI (Organicpedic) Duo with three 3" layers with the top sculpted layer being soft, the middle layer being medium, and the bottom layer being firm.

Your descriptions are also referring to other layers that look like they are 1", and 1.5" and 2" and Iā€™m not sure what these are referring to because your mattress contains 3" layers.

What I would need to be able to see any patterns or to be able to even guess about the type of changes that may be helpful are the specifics of all the layers in each combination you tried (starting with the first one not the last one and listed with each layer on a separate line from top to bottom) and then a description of the actual symptoms you experienced on each combination ā€¦ not the more subjective assessments such as how much each part of your body was compressing the mattress or sinking in or what your posture ā€œlooked likeā€ ā€¦ see post #6 here.

Yes ā€¦ Natural latex tends to be less consistent than synthetic or blended latex but for most people this wouldnā€™t make a significant difference since relatively small variations in ILD across the surface arenā€™t generally noticeable.

Not specifically no because there can be multiple causes for any ā€œsymptomā€ and you are really going by ā€œprobabilitiesā€ based on your experience and the layering combination you are trying compared to the one before it. The post I linked earlier (post #2 here) has much more information about the most common causes of the different symptoms that people generally experience on a mattress but it usually takes some more detailed detective work and trial and error based on how your symptoms change with each combination to be able to assess whether any change is moving in the right direction.

I would agree that the most important part of the ā€œvalueā€ of any sleeping system is how well you sleep on it regardless of the price or the quality or durability of the layers and components inside it.

Iā€™m happy to share my thoughts but you will need to simplify your posts so that they only contain the specifics of each layering combination and the symptoms you experienced on each of them and how they changed relative to the combination before it so that the information is much less complex and easier to ā€œuntangleā€, understand and assess.

Phoenix

Iā€™m using google chrome on a mac, bold doesnā€™t show up and and I am subscribed to this topic.

I apologize as thought itā€™d be easier to go off of my most current situation only, I still this is true to a certain degree. Iā€™ll explain a little further for more context, but I do think itā€™s fair to basically to forget some of the past, so Iā€™ll reiterate, so you donā€™t have to revisit other parts of the thread, at least thatā€™s the ideal.

Brief History

[ul]
[li]I bought an OMI (Organicpedic) DUO talalay bed about a year and half ago. All layers are flat (no sculpted) at 3" each.[/li]
[li]Bed is split into half left and right[/li]
[li]Iā€™ve gotten a new Soft layer this year, because OMI lost my old one when I took it to get checked for lack of support in the middle.[/li]
[li]I stopped using the zippered mattress cover to sleep on directly it only covers the firm layer[/li][
[li]Sleep mostly on back and then side, mostly because pain at tailbone, wonā€™t change much if comfortable, rare these days, but akin to vampire in a coffin, donā€™t need to move a lot.[/li][/ul]

S/M/F combination:
When sleeping on my back it hurts and feels as if my tailbone/butt is falling into the mattress while the rest of my upper body is higher and itā€™s a pulling aching feeling thatā€™s isolated to the middle of the bed. The head and foot of the bed is firmer and doesnā€™t not create this sinking feeling and is physically more supportive than the middle section of the bed. This is why I say hips are dipping into the bed too much and it wreaks havoc on my entire body, causing misalignment issues, I feel better standing than I do getting into bed. I have measured, the relative distance of my forehead, waistline fairly accurate when standing, the waistline is an inch lower in the bed with no pillow, where as when I stand they are even and donā€™t feel any strain or pulling at the bottom of my spine.

M/F:
Removed Soft layer, felt better for a few days, hips were higher up, but still lower, and pain reflected that, Meaning I felt like my tailbone was as low, but once I adjusted to it, it was still a little low and felt the pulling, at the same time I could kind of feel the slats in my bed so it was a little harder than Iā€™d like, but I didnā€™t have problems with my joints sinking in to the top layer.

ā€”
.5",1", and 1.5", Soft Dunlop Experiment
I own a separate Dunlop layer from foamorder itā€™s a soft layer ranging from 25-32ILD. I had them cut into 3 different layers .5",1", and 1.5", so 1" is the softest closer to the 25ILD, .5ā€™ is the middle and 1.5" is the firmer closer to 32ILD.

So I used every combination there is, and felt it would be fairly tedious to share the same exact problem each time, my tailbone felt like it was dipping, pulling feeling/strain while the other part of my body was up higher the main differences are the softer the material the more pressure relief, however the dunlop is older and can be more mushy and trap my shoulder joints in bad positions. The layer seemed slightly uneven before it was cut since it was used well before I had the Duo.

Hereā€™s the more relevant combos with these layers on top.
S now stands for Dunlop layer (will clarify when that changes later)

2" (1.5"+.5") S/M/F
Good pressure relief, but ultimately too soft I kept sinking at the hips. Uneven in different spots and would sometimes cause joints to stick in a misaligned position, always equals pain later.

1.5" S/M/F
Pressure relief is a hit or miss, I slept better because hips rose up, but it was a little harder and causing bad circulation, numb hands and it irritated pinched nerve at the shoulder when side sleeping. I still had lower hips, just not as much, but just meant slightly less pulling/aching. Less problems with mushiness of layer, but still there with unevenness in different spots of the layer.

ā€”
Compared all the above to the floor
Floor is hardwood with carped on top and waistline is .5" above forehead on floor (no pillow), and felt better just to relax my body on after any of the other combinations. I did not sleep on the floor just rested there a few times to test the difference.

It seems obvious the integral structure of every Talalay layer S/M/F was softer in the middle. I can feel it lying down, I see and feel it when I push on the mattress in the middle of each layer and I have the measurement to show definitive height difference of the waistline and forehead with no pillow. Measured on more than one person, not hypermobile, stiff and curvier.

So I decided to try modifying S/M/F thinking if I have enough support in the middle the pressure relief of the soft talalay layer might be pretty good.

S/M/F Talalay modified with Polyfoam and an extra Latex square.

[ul]
[li]35ILD .25ā€™ polyfoam layer cut into 2 pieces and placed over the Firm layer, this cut covers 1/3, the mid section and then Medium layer smaller about 1/2 the size and covers the tailbone section.[/li]
[li]13ILD 1" thick 25"x30" Talalay Latex placed over the middle of the bed (you can see its outline)[/li][/ul]

This gave me relief at the tailbone initially but as I suspected it only lasted a few night before it started becoming problematic. My pelvis didnā€™t feel like it was sinking anymore, but later on it felt like pressure against the tailbone which didnā€™t feel very good. So maybe this is too high, my waistline measured the same as it did on the floor, so I though it might be too much. I did enjoy have more space for my shoulder, but my knee joints were hanging off the latex square causing instability issues when standing.

S/M/F Talalay modified with Polyfoam (Current Status)
I removed the latex square this more closely resembles my waistline to forehead ratio when standing and knee problems went away. But tailbone still feels like itā€™s sinking a bit, but it also feels pressure. These adjustments feel a little uneven as expected it physically raises the middle like a small hill, which Iā€™d like to reduce so itā€™s more even and causes less problems. When Iā€™m on my side my upper and lower body feels lower than my hips yet firmer at the very end of the bed like a wave and this causes misalignment at the spine, hips, and knees.

So Iā€™m a little unsure which way to go from here. Right now Iā€™m assuming If I can find a denser thin polyfoam that may work or even creating slats of polyfoam over a base of polyform and placing over the firm or medium layer so thereā€™s less of a peak or hill elevation to the layers and overall support or firmness is more even than without the polyfoam.

I hope that clarifies everything, my general need is stability in and out of the bed, so dipping or softness where the spine bottoms out too much isnā€™t ideal, and small amount of pressure relieve so hands donā€™t go numb and or nerves donā€™t get pinched and not too soft that joints are positioned incorrectly throughout the night causing inflammation.

Hi jd,

Once you have purchased a mattress and are sleeping on it the amount that different parts of your body are sinking in or how firm it ā€œfeelsā€ to you or how far it feels like your hips are dipping into the mattress arenā€™t really as important as the specific symptoms of pain and discomfort you are feeling when you sleep on a mattress over the course of the night. Itā€™s the norm that the heavier parts of your body (such as the hips/pelvis) will tend to sink into a mattress more deeply (which is why the middle feels softer to you) than the lighter parts of your body such as your shoulders.

Iā€™m assuming that the part of your body that hurt with this combination is your lower back which is generally an indication that either your comfort layers are too thick/soft or that your support layers are too soft. The two most common ways to ā€œfixā€ this would either be exchanging the firm layer with the medium layer which would create firmer support (and would be the most common adjustment because you can keep the softer layer on top for side sleeping) or to exchange the soft layer with the medium layer which would firm up the upper layers of the mattress.

This would be significantly firmer than your previous 3 layer combination partly because you removed the soft layer and partly because thinner mattresses canā€™t adapt as effectively to the contours of the body and this would be significantly firmer both in terms of the sleeping surface and in terms of support. For most people in average to higher weight ranges this wouldnā€™t be a solution that would work well except possibly for back or stomach sleepers that donā€™t need as much thickness/softness in their comfort layers. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. As you also mentioned it would also be more likely that you could feel the slats under the bed if you were heavier or very sensitive. Iā€™m also not clear if your back pain was better or worse than on the S/M/F combination after a few days so I donā€™t know what your experience with this combination is pointing to in terms of how it changed your experience. Again ā€¦ itā€™s the actual symptoms that are most important not how much it may feel like different parts of your body are sinking in.

I would need more specifics about how this affected your back pain compared to the S/M/F by itself. It seems that the pressure relief was already good with the S/M/F (at least you didnā€™t mention it as a ā€œsymptomā€) but it wouldnā€™t be particularly surprising that adding additional soft layers wouldnā€™t help your alignment (either in your lower back or in your joints). The unevenness could just be from the normal ILD variation in the Dunlop across the surface (which you may feel more than most because of your sensitivity) or because it was cut unevenly.

It would be very unusual that most people would feel any difference between a 1.5" topper and a 2" topper that were in the same approximate ILD range but of course you appear to be much more sensitive than the norm. Based on your symptoms it seems like the biggest difference here was in the pressure relief of the 1.5" layer (which is the firmest of the three) compared to the 2" layer. This would be firmer both because the 1.5" layer is firmer and also because thinner comfort layers will also ā€œactā€ firmer on the same layers below them. Iā€™m not clear how this compared to the S/M/F (with the soft Talalay on top) without any toppers in terms of pressure relief.

This actually isnā€™t accurate and the middle of a Talalay layer would be closely comparable to the rest of the sleeping surface in terms of itā€™s ILD. The reason that it would ā€œfeelā€ softer is because your hips are the heaviest part of your body so they will tend to sink in more deeply. This is also why some people experience a mattress as being soft while others experience the same mattress as being firm. The more you sink into a layer the softer it will generally feel even if the layer is the same ILD across the surface.

This is confusing to me and Iā€™m not clear on the specifics of this layering. If you could describe the dimensions of each of the layers of polyfoam and exactly where they are located in the mattress it would be helpful. I ā€œthinkā€ I understand that one of the firm polyfoam pieces is in the center third of the mattress in between the medium and firm latex layer but Iā€™m not clear where you put the second smaller piece and if it was under the tailbone then it would be overlapping with the first piece in the center third of the mattress. 35 ILD polyfoam is also firm ā€¦ not medium so Iā€™m not sure what you are referring to when you mentioned a medium smaller layer.

Your description of the 1" Talalay layer is a little more clear and if I understand you correctly itā€™s also in the center third of the mattress on top of the other layers.

There are really too many changes between this combination and the one before it for me to isolate the effect of each of the changes. Itā€™s normally better to only make one change at a time so that the effect of one particular change can be more easily identified. Itā€™s not surprising that your pelvis was ā€œliftedā€ higher if my understanding of this layering is correct (which I donā€™t think it is). Was the pressure under your tailbone painful or did it just ā€œfeelā€ uncomfortable. While I donā€™t have your weight or body type to use a reference ā€¦ it would be very unusual if you had a pressure issue in your tailbone with 3" of soft latex and an additional 1" of 13 ILD Talalay underneath it. If you are taking a zoning approach I would also use layers that went all the way across the width of the mattress which would solve the knee joints hanging off the edges of the latex square.

Again Iā€™m not clear on the specific symptoms you are experiencing on this combination or how they changed compared to the other combinations you tried. Again ā€¦ the ā€œcluesā€ I am looking for are specific symptoms (pain or discomfort) and how they change with each combination. In other words descriptions about how each combination was either better or worse relative to a specific symptom is the information that is most helpful.

If you can fill in some of the gaps in my understanding particularly in the specifics of the zoning you have tried and by using descriptors such as ā€œbetter or worseā€ relative to specific symptoms it would help me more than trying to describe how much each part of your body is sinking in or how your alignment ā€œlooksā€ in mathematical terms.

We need to be on the same page and using the same ā€œlanguageā€ and ā€œmethodologyā€ for me to have any chance of making any meaningful suggestions.

Phoenix

I have tried S/M/F, S/F/M, S/F/F, S/M/M, M/S/F, M/M/F, S/F/F, M/F/S, etc. Iā€™ve done each probably 3x or more depending on the success of the result with at least 3 days or more of trial and error. Iā€™ve also used a removed the soft talalay layer and replaced it with a soft thinner dunlop layer in each of these thicknesses .5", 1"1.5". So in effect Iā€™ve tried latex at 6"-12", I tried each individual 3" soft talalay layer but I did not sleep on those, just too extreme.

So Iā€™ve been looking at this a different way because Iā€™ve have done every kind of shuffling among layers possible (not an exaggeration), and each and every time my tailbone and to waist line felt like it was being pulled down towards the ground straining, the more it physically looked lower than the rest of my body.

I know the more tailbone was elevated the less pulling I felt, which is an obtainable change. Measurement has been a successful intervention feeling has not, as have generalized joint pain can cause a lot of pain everywhere. It took me a very long time to figure out it always came back to the pulling pain at end of the spine.

The (tailbone) Coccyx or around the sacral canal which is the butt. I guess that could be the lower back, but I try to be specific because people tend to associate the lumbar with the lower back and that is absolutely not an issue and usually causes more problems when there is too much lumbar support.

Basically each talalay layer Soft, Medium, Firm is ā€œsofterā€ in the middle, from my perspective this means less supportive as I can physically see a difference and a measure it. It is feeling, a pulling pain at the tailbone area and then obvious to the eye and from rational measurement.

Iā€™m 5"8 currently 168lbs.
Narrow and compact, dolicomorph, thinner bone structure wider shoulders with partial tears in each and a labral tear.
Accumulated some belly fat since most of this started which doesnā€™t help, but I also lift weights. But Iā€™ve avoided lifting for a little while now to get baseline for measurements for when I"m more malleable when I do lift Iā€™m more stiff which is helpful.

Also hereā€™s what I meant by 2" (1.5"+.5") S/M/F:
I completely removed the Talalay 3" Soft and replaced it with 1.5" dunlop and added another .5" dunlop layer totaling 2" of soft dunlop.

These dunlop soft layers were cut in depth from one 3" soft dunlop layer which is 2.5 years old.

Current setup is S/M/F with .25" of 35ILD poly foam over the firm layer and then a smaller piece over the medium layer.

What I described in my last post was in chronological and done over months of time, not in one day, each change you can imagine has come at a price, Iā€™ve paid it and have done so more than once. So I skipped over all the other combinations Iā€™ve done, since they didnā€™t work.

The (tailbone) Coccyx or around the sacral canal which is the butt. I guess that could be the lower back, but I try to be specific because people tend to associate the lumbar with the lower back and that isnā€™t really an issue and usually causes more problems when there is too much lumbar support as Iā€™m in extension naturally.

The main point is my tailbone and up to the waistline feels like itā€™s being pulled down while the mid back and upper back isnā€™t and is physically higher and has been measured that way. The measurement has been the most accurate way to deal with this as opposed to having to rely on someone eyeballing my alignment with a broomstick, Being flexible and having a gut makes it appear that Iā€™m more supported than I really am because if the lumbar is high enough while the lower part of the spine isnā€™t the belly could still look high to the casual observer. I know and my partner knows because weā€™ve done it together too many times.

My experience of shuffling layers and adding them is that, I donā€™t have to have a 3" soft layer and it could cause more problems due to a 3" thickness, however the thinner dunlop layers arenā€™t doing me any favors as they are worn in and lumpy in certain spots. Also the most important note all the support layers Medium and Firm, are softer in the middle itā€™s not just the soft layer at the top itā€™s just less noticeable the firmer each layer is.

So even when I used a thinner slightly firmer soft dunlop layer I would still experience this dipping because it creeps through every layer. This is why I thought zoning in specific areas using the thicker 3" talalay would bring nice to bring up the hips and the extra thickness allow for wider shoulders. However, the tricky part is creating and evenly distributing the polyfoam support without making the shape of the latex hill or wave like.

I guess I donā€™t see any real solution other than getting different support layers or the zoning bandaid. I donā€™t really want to spend more money on more latex at this point, as itā€™s too expensive and I donā€™t see it being as superior as talked about.

So mainly looking for advice on how to evenly distribute new support layer so the latex doesnā€™t wave up, too much. I was hoping to know if there was a good measurement from the waistline to the forehead that might be reliable as a baseline. It sounds like you may not see the benefit in that most of the time, but itā€™s been the most reliable way to make adjustments so far, just need to make those adjustments while keeping the right balance throughout the latex.

Hereā€™s an example

S/F/F
Too firm, raises hips and everything else with with the same level of elevation as the soft layer, just firmer, It still hurts the hips and adds a lot more pressure all around yet still sinks in at hips. Because soft layer is still firmer at the foot and head of the bed while the middle portion is softer the only thing firmer layer does is create more tension across the whole layer and reduce pressure relief. In this case too much.

S/F/M
I know that S/F/M only gives the feeling of firmness closer to the body, but still lacks support in the middle because I still feel pain at the tailbone and the waistline is still lower compared, because each layer is worn in the middle more than the rest. This also reduces pressure relief over the entire body, too much tension.

S/M/F is the best order, whether that Soft layer is 3" thick versus 1.5" is a different story. Iā€™m simply working with what 1.5" to 2"inches seemed good enough for pressure relief, but 3" of talalay provided pressure relief which didnā€™t get lumpy or much in parts like the dunlop seemed too. This is why I opted for the 3" talalay. because if I could raise my tail up Iā€™d have good pressure relief my shoulders might have more room to brief too.

I definitely understand the semantics might not be right, but I do know what is real, and my description is accurate, my body at the waistline is lower than rest of my body it is due to lack of support in that specific area and it causes pain at the tailbone area of my body. I understood the pressure points of weight and how they are distributed across the mattress at the heaviest points, what Iā€™m saying is the heaviest part at the tailbone hurts and it physically is lower than the rest of my body. And through the use of measuring the difference between different points on my body I can get a general baseline for what my general range of ok is, not a fixed measurement, a relative one with a range, just might be tighter than the general population.

Apologize if something is missing, but this might be all I have.

Hi jd,

You are making this much more complex than I am able to follow on a forum and Iā€™m sorry but I donā€™t think we are on the same page or talking the same ā€œlanguageā€ and with the information that youā€™ve provided I donā€™t have enough clarity to provide any meaningful suggestions.

Iā€™m not looking for just a list of what youā€™ve tried or havenā€™t tried or whether they ā€œworkedā€ or ā€œdidnā€™t workā€ or how far different parts of your body are sinking in or being elevated because these are not the most important descriptors ā€¦ Iā€™m looking for specific information about how each layering combination changed your experiences and your actual ā€œsymptomsā€ compared to the one before it. Without this specific type of comparative information that is ā€œsymptomā€ related that describes your experiences in terms of how each combination is better or worse relative to the others and the specifics of ā€œhowā€ it is better or worse I have little to go by.

If you are looking at zoning solutions then there is some information in post #11 here and the posts it links to that may be helpful but it can take some trial and error to find the best possible zoning configuration.

For example ā€¦ with all of your descriptions Iā€™m still not clear about which of the combinations youā€™ve tried was the best, which was the next best, and which was the third best ā€¦ and the specific differences between them in terms of your symptoms that explained why you would rate them that way.

I would also keep in mind that I canā€™t help with medical issues or the complexities that they present because this is something that only a medical professional can help with ā€¦ all I can do is work with the information you provide about how each layering combination changes your experience compared to the others so I can make an educated guess at possible changes that may help you find the ā€œbest possibleā€ solution out of the options you have available ā€¦ even if itā€™s less than ā€œperfectā€.

Without more clarity based on the information I need then unfortunately it really isnā€™t possible to help you outside of linking you to posts that may help you identify the types of changes that you think may be helpful for yourself.

If you want to continue this process then I think it would be helpful to take this more slowly and incrementally. Starting at the beginning ā€¦ if you can take a single post and describe your specific experience on the soft/medium/firm combination and the specific symptoms you experienced and where you felt any pain or discomfort (ie. I felt pain in this part of my body or numbness in this part of my body when I was in this sleeping position etc) without describing ā€œwhyā€ you think you were experiencing these specific symptoms (such as how far each part of your body was sinking in) and then compare the symptoms on this combination to your experience on the soft/firm/medium combination that you tried and tell me exactly how each of your specific symptoms changed (got better or worse or stayed the same) relative to the soft/medium/firm then as we go through each combination one at a time I may be able to gain some clarity about how your experience and symptoms changed with each combination.

It may take quite a number of posts to go through all the combinations youā€™ve tried and to describe your specific experiences and symptoms on each of them but at least this way I may be able to understand your experience well enough to make some meaningful comments or suggestions.

Phoenix

I understand, thanks for trying to digest what you could. I appreciate the link, and will check it out.

The 2 best combinations for myself always going to be a variation of S/M/F (top/middle/bottom), the only variant being the Soft Layer changing itā€™s thickness from 1.5" or 2" or 3" thickness. The thickness is basically a difference between pressure relief and the amount I sink into the layer at the hips and shoulder.

I think the major problem you might be having is assuming that the layers are supporting weight distribution evenly, even though Iā€™m stating they donā€™t. They do not. the middle section is measurably different. I can stick a 15lb dumbbell at the head and then where my but would be and you can see a measurable sinking of the one weight being lower than the other by eye and by tape measure. Itā€™s not crazy huge, but about .5" inches and each layer contributes to it, itā€™s not just the soft layer, itā€™s the medium layer and the firm layer. So replace the dumbells with a 170lbs body where weight is compressed in the middle and it is more significant.

So no matter what thickness of Soft is placed on the top of the Medium and Firm layers it will always be less resistant in the middle because the support layers are less resistant there. I think even a medium on top would eventually do the same just take longer to sink in the middle.

Therefore, I didnā€™t narrow it down much between the Soft Layerā€™s thickness from 1.5" or 2" or 3". It was easier to consider the 3" as easier to zone without making the top layer too hilly compared to a thinner layer. Also 3" inches being easier on my shoulders. Otherwise 1.5" or 2" was ok, but Iā€™m not a fan of dunlop on top since what I had feels a little mushy and doesnā€™t give as much pressure relief as Iā€™d like unless itā€™s 2", but 2" always sank at the hips given the layers underneath it always do.

Anytime I say the layers sank at the hips it means I felt a pulling pain at my tailbone and strain.

Also my partner said she also feels her side of the bed is doing the same, however sheā€™s not so sensitive a much curvier and stiffer than I am, so itā€™s not just me noticing this as an issue daily. In fact sheā€™s always loved the bed, because itā€™s probably better for her given sheā€™s proportionally bigger at the hips for her size.

That said I think itā€™s easy to say bringing up the hips area is a simple part of the solution, hyper mobility or not, itā€™s more of how to do zone evenly that Iā€™m interested at given that the layers them selves are less resistant in the middle yet the same thickness, so anytime I add a polyfoam layer it will create slight hill in the middle.

My thoughts are to try to get a thin polyfoam thats harder what I have now. so I can keep the mattress from getting to much of a hill in the middle. Iā€™m at 35ILD now, so guessing a little higher. Was really wondering what density Iā€™m might try or if thereā€™s anyway to make a good educated guess so I can buy the right size and amount. I got lucky before and bought it as scraps for very cheap.

Quick recap
S/M/F with adjustments probably best, but hill problem makes it hard to judge, good pressure relief
2"/M/F good pressure relief, but sank at hips, fixing the hips might make it pretty good.
1.5"/M/F best hip adjustment without zoning, however pressure like hands numbing and the like occurs

So itā€™s not clear which one is better or worse because itā€™s the support layers always cause sinking and skew the results which in turn makes for a very frustrating experience and explanation.

Basically I can see the 2" or 3" working if adjusted so the hips are brought up = less pulling pain. Practically speaking Iā€™m using the 3" soft talalay layer because itā€™s better quality, not lumpy feeling and if done correctly might give me the best shoulder room.

That said Iā€™d be open to the 2" version to see if itā€™s easier to zone. But what I did notice is right 2 and 3" didnā€™t really differ that much in support, but 1.5" was more firm due to the range ILD being firmer and being a thinner layer.

I think it may be more whether you believe what Iā€™m saying is accurate that may make this harder to deal with, because Iā€™m saying that all the latex layers S M F arenā€™t evenly supporting the same weight, i.e. a 15lb dumbell sinks further at the hips area than it does at the head of the bed.

If that is accepted than everything else will make sense. Either way Iā€™m looking at attempting a clever diy zoning solution.

I will say Iā€™ve been doing this over 18 months or so, so I havenā€™t been doing this quickly and itā€™s been very time consuming, frustrating and perplexing, because Iā€™d had been going on the same notion that the material is infallible so this sinking must be in my head, so why is there pain too? So I decided to figure it out. And regardless if you agree measuring everything gave much more clarity and I can repeat the process on basically anyone who can stand and itā€™s much less laborious than guessing based on feeling. I recognize there is flex in spine, but the relationship between how much flex can be had without pain or with muscle relaxation definitely seems relative to good postural alignment.

I definitely am not assuming any help with any medical advice, Iā€™m aware of my needs too, and as I stated most of it is more basic, thereā€™s less resistance an an area that I need it in the middle of the bed. In reality itā€™s a pretty classic problem mattress problem, itā€™s just usually not something people are discussing when it comes to latex.

Anyhow thanks, I actually used youā€™re knowledge to gain my own on all of this and did so over the 18 plus months and honestly I really didnā€™t want to post on here anymore as I felt like I asked enough previously and not really the type to enjoy asking for help. Iā€™m going to continue using my formula and see how accurate it is when finalizing everything.

Thanks

Hi jd,

[quote=ā€œPhoenixā€ post=53970]Hi jd,
Without more clarity based on the information I need then unfortunately it really isnā€™t possible to help you outside of linking you to posts that may help you identify the types of changes that you think may be helpful for yourself.

If you want to continue this process then I think it would be helpful to take this more slowly and incrementally. Starting at the beginning ā€¦ if you can take a single post and describe your specific experience on the soft/medium/firm combination and the specific symptoms you experienced and where you felt any pain or discomfort (ie. I felt pain in this part of my body or numbness in this part of my body when I was in this sleeping position etc) without describing ā€œwhyā€ you think you were experiencing these specific symptoms (such as how far each part of your body was sinking in) and then compare the symptoms on this combination to your experience on the soft/firm/medium combination that you tried and tell me exactly how each of your specific symptoms changed (got better or worse or stayed the same) relative to the soft/medium/firm then as we go through each combination one at a time I may be able to gain some clarity about how your experience and symptoms changed with each combination.

It may take quite a number of posts to go through all the combinations youā€™ve tried and to describe your specific experiences and symptoms on each of them but at least this way I may be able to understand your experience well enough to make some meaningful comments or suggestions.

Phoenix[/quote]

Without a more complete understanding of how the different combinations you have tried have affected you and a ā€œone combination per postā€ and more ā€œsymptom basedā€ comparisons of your configurations I really canā€™t make any meaningful suggestions.

Iā€™m not clear on what this means or whether your pain is connected to pressure or alignment issues or is more of a trigger point type of pain that can come from pressure or alignment issues in other areas of your body. Iā€™m also not clear about whether you experience this pain when you sleep on your side or on your back or on how the different combinations youā€™ve tried have lessened or increased this specific pain ā€¦ all of which would make a difference in the type of suggestions I would make.

Phoenix

Hi,

Just a quick answer, I primarily sleep on my back and then towards the end of the night my left side usually.

It might be incredibly taxing to go over every possible configuration Iā€™ve tried and give notes on what happened over the past 18 months. Plus itā€™s a moving target and wonā€™t make much a difference, since the in reality the middle of the bed is softer and literally less supportive than the rest. (15lbs weight example from previous post is accurate.)

I have numerous drawings, notes, dissecting each possibility. at this point, and I see this soft middle portion of the layers S/M/F where it creates anterior pelvic tilt is the main culprit.

Regardless of what I do there is a pseudo body weight impression where I sleep the heaviest weighted portion of my body sinks lower in the middle of the mattress, when it actually needs to be more supportive. I said pseudo in the sense that latex simply rebounds without weight on it, however it doesnā€™t mean it supports evenly once ā€œbroken inā€ and if youā€™re body is not proportional in weight distribution, youā€™re overweight, or you have ligaments which are hypermobile you can expect disproportional support as the latex layers break in over time.

I was not really aware of the detriments of the latex breaking down this way as all that seems to be marketed as it will last 15-20 years so itā€™s easy to think it means it will support you correctly during that time. That may not be the case from this experience unless you like being out alignment while you wait for the layer to break down, by rotating it or flipping, but once you do that you have to contend with new alignment problems.

When talking about all the benefits I think this should be pointed out as it makes latex sound like some miracle that fixes all in mattress marketing. It does has a lot of benefits compared to foam no doubt, but as a support system, it doesnā€™t seem so good if you need more stability that wonā€™t wear down like that or be codependent on your weight to such a high degree. as itā€™s more like a see saw when it comes to weight distribution. Newton 3ā€™rd law of motion.

The breaking down of the layers isnā€™t so ideal if you fit any of the above differences. Simply removing a layer so you donā€™t sink as much can easily cause discomfort if the mattress doesnā€™t relieve enough pressure, which is really what has happened in all the combinations Iā€™ve tried, remove soft from S/M/F and it feels better for a few days to a week or so and then start getting numbness in my hands from back or side sleeping.

Iā€™ve read elsewhere on this forum where you consider anterior pelvic tilt typically a problem of the mattress being too firm, for the majority of people otherwise itā€™s that they maybe shaped differently other with a different spine curvature, so then itā€™s a medical problem.

I understand the sentiment, they need to work on their physiological problems to do better. However, this implies this type of mattress in design is correct, when realistically most people are different in shape and not everyone is made stiff at the ligaments.

Having hypermobility syndrome is in the U.Kā€¦ is in fact a smaller part of the population at roughly 3%, if itā€™s equal to that in the US near 10 million people, although that 3%. I say roughly because there has been a lack of general population studies or other studies of sufficient sample size to accurately estimate itā€™s prevalence.

That said Caucasians are 6% and whereas African, Asian, Arab, and origin or less than 30%, meaning it could very well translate further in the U.S. where the population diversity is high and larger.

Scaling back down to simply having hypermobile joints is even more interesting, because population that is 10-25%. To break it down further people having 1-4 hypermobile joints is about 10-40%. Thatā€™s around
31-127 million people in the US. That might have laxity in an less ideal place when sleeping, itā€™s not certain, but should be considered, when thinking of the ā€œmajorityā€. Women tend do have this more then men, which could explain some things. One test from Beighton tests is specifically if you can touch your palms on the floor, itā€™s pretty assume some back and hip ligament are looser in these individuals.

On top of that thereā€™s plenty of desk jockeyā€™s in the population ruining their posture and not doing anything about nor realizing it. Which would fit into people outside the ā€œmajorityā€ I donā€™t agree, there, but they maybe easier to manage if they are in the norm of stiffness. However keeping someone at the same same bad curvature over time 8 hours a night only exacerbate the problem. Which is the type of support latex seems to provide if it doesnā€™t help fix it soon after itā€™s broken in. And them ā€œfeelingā€ something good or bad could simply be in relation the problem they have which makes for a difficult time picking anything out. Lots of people arenā€™t always the best at knowing their own bodies or anatomy.

Steps to pick out a mattress seem to be:

  1. Know what posture youā€™re in and if you need to correct it and how a mattress will be able to help or not.
  2. Pretty much everything else youā€™ve written on this site.

So all latex sounds appealing in marketing but without starting an exercise regimen of smart re-postural techniques (PRI or egoscue) and resistance training, which most wonā€™t know about or consider, you may not be able to improve spine curvature, and laying on a bed that supports posture that isnā€™t helpful, is a detriment and a bad buy for that individual.

Maybe I missed something like this in the intro here, but I think this isnā€™t subtle subject when considering the ramifications of buy 2-5k mattresses.

PRI, postural restoration institute advices having even support through head to foot of the mattress or rather the same firmness and maybe a little more firm in the middle. And looking for pocketed coil mattress, advised against, foam, water, futon, latex and air mattresses. These came from 2009 article https://www.posturalrestoration.com/resources/dyn/files/1062906z2b3de4bc/_fn/Mattress_Recommendations.pdf.

Anyone suffering from back might want to research PRI and work with a PRI trained therapist or trainer. I have it makes a difference, itā€™s a little different, but really helps.

I felt I need to say this because Iā€™ve gotten the impression latex has been the best for everything, and itā€™s been very hit or miss, but more detrimental as time passed due to the way it supports and wears down.

All Iā€™m doing now is using polyfoam to trying to make the bed more evenly supported kind of like the recommendation made by PRI. However itā€™s overly complex and mostly bandaids in hope that the layers break down more evenly after time.

Just a quick conclusion for anyone else thatā€™s say in extension, you need to practice breathing exercises keeping your ribs down and the pelvis tucked in towards the ribs, google PRI exercises. So you can see if youā€™re pelvis isnā€™t supported properly when laying on your back, it will create anterior pelvic tilt, especially if you carry more of youā€™re weight near the waist down. You also donā€™t need extra lumbar support at your chair or mattress as it pushes you into more extension.

Iā€™ve zoned my bed with .25 layers of polyfoam of different densities and created a slight decline at the head of the bed. But too complicated to explain more, but the main problem exists, the center of the bed is less supportive and difficult to make firmer and the complexity is outlandish.

Basically it seems like thereā€™s not fast way of breaking in a layer, so even with that you Iā€™ve found it better to sleep lower on the bed then as the top of the bed from head to foot is basically a wave of firm to medium, soft, medium, firm.

I could consider zoning it with latex, but what happens as different layers break in at different rates? Thatā€™s part of the problem with getting a new layer, which Iā€™m dealing with now, itā€™s partially broken. A nightmare of bad alignment that never seems to end.

Anyways, Iā€™m starting to lean towards getting a cheap coiled mattress for the support and seeing how a layer of latex on top would be better, than all latex.

So far this bed hasnā€™t lasted very long for 4k I could have bought a lot of cheap mattresses that might have lasted longer and still been cheaper in the long run of 15 years.

Iā€™ve seen this site as resource, so after so much time, I thought Iā€™d give anyone in what might be considered the minority a different perspective. Although I will say everyone is different itā€™s best understand youā€™re body if youā€™re the type that struggles with finding the right fit easily.

If you have any suggestions on cheaper but decent coiled mattresses feel free to let me know.

Thanks

Hi jd,

I can see that youā€™re very frustrated and perhaps even somewhat angry and unfortunately that seems to have led you to ā€œmisrepresentingā€ or ā€œmistranslatingā€ much of the information you have read on this site.

I donā€™t really know where to begin to correct many of the statements you made in your post that talk about what you somehow have come to believe about your experience or what is said on the site that contradicts the actual information that is written here (including many of the links that I have provided in this topic) and it may be pointless anyway because based on your comments I suspect it would only lead to many more hours of providing even more links or information than I already have to ā€œcorrectā€ much of what you are saying or believe or to try and provide information that I thought would help you only to have them mistranslated once again and then have to do it all over again in the next post. Perhaps itā€™s just easier to let it stand as one personā€™s thoughts about the information on the site or about the information that I have taken many hours to provide to you in this topic. I really donā€™t know what else I can do to help you other than the information that I and European Sleep Works have already provided either in person or in this topic.

The bottom line is that you have some medical issues that have made it very difficult for you to find a mattress that is a good ā€œmatchā€ for you in terms of PPP over the years that has affected how well you have slept on mattresses you have purchased that would normally have worked well for others that didnā€™t have some of the difficult challenges you are facing. While I can certainly sympathize with situations like yours ā€¦ the reality is that there may not be a mattress that can completely compensate for some of the physiological challenges you are facing or that will continue ā€œworkingā€ for you or that you will be happy with over time and as you mentioned with situations like yours you are somewhat of a ā€œmoving targetā€ where a mattress may work for a while and then no longer continue to work for you. In addition to this ā€¦ the only way for you to know whether any mattress will work well for you over time will be based on your own personal sleeping experience ā€¦ not on ā€œtheoryā€.

Iā€™m certainly happy to answer any specific questions you may have (as long as they are relatively simple enough to answer on a forum) when it comes to mattresses or mattress materials or even mattress design that I can help with but Iā€™m not a doctor or health professional that is able to deal with issues that are caused primarily by specific health or physiological challenges on a forum.

I know that this may not be what you ā€œwantā€ to hear but IMO and based on your history and on the information you have posted here it is the reality of what you are dealing with. I would keep in mind that a mattress canā€™t solve pre-existing health or physiological issues you may have (although it can certainly make them easier to deal with or sometimes help prevent them from getting worse) and that there may be no ā€œperfectā€ mattress for you that you may be happy with over the longer term.

I would also take the time to read post #1 here from a very well informed and knowledgeable member of the forum that is an athlete and physical trainer that works closely with others in the health and medical profession that may help you maintain realistic expectations about what a mattress can and canā€™t do for you.

Phoenix

I donā€™t think I know what mistranslation you might be speaking on. My opinion is itā€™s be nice to place more priority on the individual understanding what there physiology is then pick the right materials for the job.

Itā€™s pretty simple, I donā€™t disagree with how to go about the process of evaluating the bed you have put together here, I actually said everything else is pretty much what you have written here.

As Iā€™ve said in the past I appreciate what you have shared, my own opinion is just setting expectations at the beginning for those who may differ due physiology or injury.

I donā€™t really see how the post/thread you linked really explains much, is there another post, it just says bump at the bottom?

I understand my own situation, again I also have a partner who is experiencing the same problems as me, who is built almost the opposite of me. So it canā€™t be claimed thatā€™s isolated to just me.

Iā€™m simply stating that there are people who donā€™t necessarily fit the same paradigm based on these physiological factors, to those people Iā€™m sharing my thoughts, Iā€™ve lost over a year of time learning by experience, not through theory. On hypermobile issues I can reference to articles or doctors powerpoints to beighton scores and hypermobility sites online if thatā€™s helpful.

The Postural Restoration Institute is one of the most contemporary places dealing with better posture as it effects the whole body once misalignment takes place. I learned from some of the best trainers in the country, checkout cressey performance. They deal with professional athletes, pitchers with a lot of congenital laxity, and general population all the time.

Iā€™ve been working pretty hard to rebuild back to where I was after my health declined, and itā€™s not through theory that takes place but practice and making habits that are repeatable.

Iā€™m not really sure if offended you, but it wasnā€™t really my intention. And sure Iā€™m frustrated or angry about spending so much money and not getting consistency in return, thatā€™s normal for anyone. However, my problem that Iā€™m having isnā€™t with you, or the site. Itā€™s that after trying things out from experience, I donā€™t think latex is the next coming as seems to be marketed (again not specific to this site), itā€™s just a more durable material with nice amenities compared to foams which have different purposes.

I donā€™t relay everything Iā€™ve done as itā€™s heavy, but I can say I recently went to the natural mattress store got on their xfirm mattresses and my pelvis wasnā€™t dipping and it didnā€™t feel too firm, surprisingly. I also jumped on basic Keetsa pillow plus and Simmons beautyrest cheaper and more expensive models that were mostly springs considered firm and they seemed pretty decent maybe a touch firmer, but no dipping.

My point is I donā€™t think itā€™s just my physiology if I can get on a new bed and not experience dipping at the pelvis. As well if my partner experiences the same thing. Who knows maybe I somehow got a bad batch of latex, OMI (Organicpedic) never checked the one I returned for testing, they lost the soft layer and gave me a new soft layer which they said is firmer than the one I probably sent them first time. So that had to be broken in again, which it should be mostly. Last time I had to place weights on a board at the head of the bed so it would be balance how much sinking is caused from the middle the top of the bed.

My point was to say, I donā€™t think latex mechanically supports the same way as coils, thatā€™s not really profound, but Iā€™d rather deal with that as itā€™s more predictable mechanically, than trying fix uneven latex support, which is complicated.

I will have to say you made a fairly generalized blanket statement about my last post, saying there so much wrong with it, but not explaining what youā€™re really pointing at. I donā€™t think Iā€™m infallible or anything so point out what you will, but simply implying Iā€™m wrong without backing up anything seems like a disservice to somebody who might not fit the majority bell curve and could be experiencing something similar.

Iā€™m pretty comfortable with the physiology I brought up, again checkout postural restoration institute, cressey performance (one of the top sports performance training facilities in the country) both are very respected in the industry. A lot of trainers actually get some of the latest info from them because theyā€™re in the forefront and work with injuries often. Theory definitely meets practice in volume there.

And honestly many doctors tend to be the most out of touch when it comes to most of the mattress subject they rely on physical therapists, and generally all the say about mattresses, unless well informed, is get a ā€œgood mattressā€ or firm tends to better.

http://www.ericcressey.com/tag/correcting-bad-posture

PRI techniques have been gaining a lot of traction over the past few years as it helps realign the spine through simple exercises.

The medical system is more likely to be a land of referrals, and at times misinformed individuals, which is why I shared. Iā€™ve been through the system and it isnā€™t so awesome. Especially for hypermobility syndrome, not many doctors are even aware of it or its ramifications. I do think itā€™s important to get anyone get checked out if something isnā€™t quite right, but there may be a level where they simply donā€™t have techniques which are effective, outside of medication or surgery, they are doctors so PT are their go to specialists, even they may not know the latest unless they keep up to date.

Iā€™ve referred friends to the mattress underground and european sleep works, in fact my friends just bought a latex innerspring hybrid from them.

Iā€™m simply saying my mattress sinks more in the middle than any other part of the bed, and it doesnā€™t balance out when I lay my body on it.

If thereā€™s a simple fix for this, Iā€™m interested. But not at the expense of my health like waiting a month through bad sleep alignment. I spent $4k plus on this and canā€™t burn through money, so Iā€™m looking for a substantial fix rather than zoning with polyfoam or the expense of custom zoned latex with more complexity, and replacing the support layers with an innerspring and layer thin latex on top to make a hybrid doesnā€™t seem too crazy, considering springs generally arenā€™t the weakest link.

So I figured I could make something affordable given I have the materials to do it.

If you do have any suggestions on coils Iā€™d appreciate it. I was serious in my post, I literally went to test some innerspring beds right after, which is another reason Iā€™m posting.

So I appreciate being able to voice my opinion to others with possible physiological problems or injuries. I donā€™t really post on anything online, and really just trying to help anyone who may be in a similar position.

If my approach for the innerspring hybrid isnā€™t something you want to indulge, thatā€™s fine. I likely wonā€™t post much more so, just putting my experience out there.

Thanks

Hi jd,

The post I linked in the last paragraph in my last reply was the wrong post so Iā€™ve corrected it.

I donā€™t have any specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or materials because the first ā€œruleā€ of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress. There are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components would be the best ā€œmatchā€ for you in terms of ā€œcomfortā€ or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress will ā€œfeelā€ to you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or ā€œtheory at a distanceā€ that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

There are many thousands of innerspring mattresses in the industry and there is no way for me to know which of them would be a good match for you in terms of PPP but there is more about the most important parts of the ā€œvalueā€ of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists (based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you).

I believe youā€™ve seen this already but the better options or possibilities Iā€™m aware of in the San Francisco/Berkeley/Oakland areas (subject to the quality/value guidelines that I linked) are listed in post #2 here. I donā€™t keep a record of what each of the retailers or manufacturers in the hundreds of lists throughout the forum have on their floor (it would be impossible for any single person to keep up with in a constantly changing market) so you will need to check their websites or call them to find out which of them carry mattresses that fit your criteria that you would be interested in testing.

There is also more general information about innersprings in this article and in post #10 here that may be helpful.

There is more about an all latex mattress vs a latex innerspring hybrid in post #13 here that can give you some sense about how an innerspring compares to a latex support core but there are so many versions of each category of mattress that the most reliable way to know which type of mattress or combination of materials and components you tend to prefer would be based on your own testing and personal experience.

There are also some sources for innerspring/latex hybrids in post #2 here and the post it links to. Some of these may have some dealers in your area and some of them are also available online as well.

Phoenix