Alternatives to Tempur-Pedic Flex Supreme?

I emailed the 4sleep people and they responded within 30 minutes! Here are the details:
[color=#0000bb]We make the mattress with four layers specially designed to provide the proper support without experiencing pain from pressure points. It’s a tricky science to figure out the right combination and there is a lot of misinformation out there about IFD’s and densities and how those translate into softness or firmness.

Our four layers are:
1.5" of 3.5lb density ThermaSense Memory foam with an IFD of 10. This is a very special type of gel foam that differs from the normal gel memory foams in that it not only absorbs heat from your body but also can liberate heat back to the spots where you need it. The goal is to maintain the optimal temperature for restful, deep sleep and our ThermaSense foam can do that. We don’t use an overly dense foam so that you will achieve that floating sense that is so unique to memory foam: float but no sink.

The second layer and third layers are made up of a special foam that provides an alternative bridge between latex & visco memory foam: you get the comfort & conforming properites of visco but it is extremely compression resistant so you do not sink, you have better support as you “float” on top of the layers. This foam also has superior air flow for great heat dissipation to aide in cooler night sleep, i.e. it continues to pull air through from the top layers. The second layer is 3.0lb density with a 10 IFD, the third layer is 3.0 lb 18 IFD.

The core layer has a 35 IFD, the side rails are 50 IFD.

While we are happy to provide the technical specs on our mattress, they do not alone tell the whole story. The unique and specially formulated cell stuctures, composition and properties of each layer very much affect the overall “feel.” The order in which the layers are assembled is a science in and of itself. If you have to go with a standard firmess scale we’d rate ourselves about a 6.5 to 7 out of 10, with 10 being the firmest. But because of our ThermaSense top layer, you’ll get that plush feel without losing any support. And because of the two middle layers, you’ll never feel like you’re sinking in quicksand, can’t move in your bed, or that your sleeping partner is bouncing you around all night. However, you’ll get plenty of localized bounce to support your own movements when and where you need it. J

We spent many years compiling information from our customers and competitors mattresses to determine what makes a truly great mattress. We feel we’ve accomplished that with a caveat: we’re always open to change as the needs of our customers change. That’s why we feel the trial periods our important, not just for the customer but also for us to learn how people truly adjust to the foam and what makes them the most comfortable.

Of course we offer a full 20 year warranty, our foam is 100% USA Made and CertiPur-US certified. We use plant-based derivatives in our foam so that it is naturally antimicrobial, hypoallergenic, dust mite and mold resistant. Contrary to what some competitors are saying about layers in a mattress being bad for air flow, we use water based glues applied in a way that minimizes blocking of air flow through the entire mattress and allows each layer to enhance the overall support, durability and comfort of the 4Sleep mattress.[/color]

Hi bmorgan,

Thanks for taking the time to share the information that they sent you … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

It’s good to see that they are transparent about their materials and the only information that is missing is the thickness of the second and third layers and the thickness and density of the polyfoam base layer.

While the density of the top 1.5" gel memory foam layer is a little lower than I would normally suggest (see the guidelines here) … it’s also only 1.5" thick so it’s in the range of “about an inch or so” of lower quality/density materials so it’s not thick enough to make a significant difference in the durability or useful life of the mattress.

The second and third layers are a high performance polyfoam that are high quality materials and wouldn’t be a weak link in the mattress (see post #3 here).

I completely agree with their comments here. While the quality/density specs of a mattress are the most important factor in the durability and useful life of a mattress … they will tell you very little about how a mattress will feel. You are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components would be the best “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing or personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

There are also no “standardized” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that is firm for one can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here).

Once you have the missing pieces of information (the thickness of the two high performance polyfoam layers and the thickness and density of the base layer) then you will be in a better position to compare their mattress to some of the other “simplified choice” or “one choice fits all” mattresses that are discussed in post #3 here.

Phoenix

You got a much more detailed response than I did! I only was able to get the density of the top layer which was 3.5lbs and that the next two layers were latex like but with better pressure relief properties, and that the base layer was 2.8lbs (seemed crazy high compared to most other mattresses in the segment which made me wonder if it was a typo and they meant 1.8lbs). Also to add the second layer is 1" and the third layer is 1.5". They also said they planned to update their FAQ page by the end of the week with the full specs for those who wanted it.

Nice to know they are being transparent. It definitely looks like an interesting mattress and is probably high on my list for when I make a decision this month on my next one… Sorry for not posting this earlier, this week kinda got away from me.

Hi zexpress,

The information they provided you seems to have filled in at least some of the missing gaps including the thickness of the middle two layers.

The 2.8 lb density they gave you certainly wouldn’t be the density of the base layer.

So far the specs look like this with only a few blanks left to confirm or fill in (ADDED: they just provided me with the missing information on their chat) …

1.5" 3.5 lb gel memory foam: A little on the low density side but also a thinner layer so it should be OK for most weight ranges.
1" 3 lb high performance polyfoam: This is a good quality material
1.5" 3 lb high performance polyfoam: Same comments as above
7" 1.8 lb polyfoam

For most people that aren’t in higher weight ranges these would be suitable specs and there wouldn’t be any weak links in the mattress but I would be a little cautious with higher weight ranges (mid 200’s or higher)…

Their price is also a little higher than some of the other “simplified choice” or “one mattress fits all” choices in post #3 here.

I would also be very cautious about purchasing a mattress from an unknown and very new internet source without more information about who is behind it and the only information they provide is “my husband and I”.

Phoenix

I asked 4Sleep how they compare to Tuft and Needle, and they gave me this response:

[color=#004400]T&N makes a good mattress for what it is, it is NOT memory foam hence the lower price. It is designed to feel very firm but it does not have the same “body contouring” abilities of memory foam nor the same advanced technology level of heat and cooling absorption (they claim memory foam sleeps hot, that’s simply not true anymore with the high tech foams, quite frankly I’m surprised they would make that claim.) We’ve added a lot of additional features like our cover with Cooling On Demand technology and our side edge rails for support. Our top comfort layer of gel memory foam is very unique as well, our mattress gives you the feel of the Tempur-pedic Cloud but with a lot more resilient support underneath the top layer.

The T& N mattress would be analogous to taking just a middle and the bottom layer of the 4Sleep mattress. It has very basic characteristics and will feel comfortable to a wide range of consumers. Because they’re not using the same level of foams they can keep the price down. There’s nothing bad about the mattress, it’s just doesn’t bring the same level of sophistication to the construction and overall sleep experience. It’s really not an apples to apples comparison because they are really in different categories when it comes to design[/color].

Hi bmorgan,

There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses.

What it will really come down to is …

  1. Suitability which is all about comfort and how well you will sleep on a mattress regardless of the materials themselves. The only way to know this with any certainty will be based on your own testing and personal experience when you sleep on the mattress. Everything else is just marketing because each person is unique in their own specific needs and preferences.

  2. Durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on the mattress before you need to replace it. The only way to know this is based on the quality/density and durability of the materials inside it.

  3. “Value” which is all about how a mattress compares to other mattresses you are considering based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price and the return policy of course as well as all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of a mattress purchase)

With the density of the top layer of memory foam they would have a slight disadvantage in terms of durability although not to the point that I would call it a “weak link” in the mattress.

There is also more about gel memory foams in post #2 here and while most people wouldn’t have a temperature regulation issue with gel memory foams … the odds are higher that a minority of people will sleep warmer compared to other types of foam materials.

Again … one of the bigger issues I would have with 4sleep is not knowing anything about the company itself and who I was dealing with when the company is very new.

Phoenix

Website is registered to a public mailbox at a UPS Store in Scottsdale, AZ. Other information is private. Domains by Proxy.

[quote=“MattressToGo” post=53268][quote=“Phoenix” post=53264]Again … one of the bigger issues I would have with 4sleep is not knowing anything about the company itself and who I was dealing with when the company is very new.

Phoenix[/quote]

Website is registered to a public mailbox at a UPS Store in Scottsdale, AZ. Other information is private. Domains by Proxy.[/quote]

That just means they use GoDaddy as the company their domain is registered with. The same as Leesa, YogaBed and this site for that matter.

I do agree it would be nice if they gave a bit more corporate information on their site. That along with detailed specs about their mattress are significantly more lacking than the sites of Casper, Leesa and YogaBed.

Hi zexpress,

Casper and Leesa and Tuft & Needle and Brooklyn Bedding all provide information about the people behind them and even though it’s not on their site … Yogabed does as well (see here and here).

Phoenix

Just an FYI. I posted a comment on 4Sleeps’s Facebook asking if they could make talk a bit more about who the company was and they deleted it along with another similar type question. I apologize for even bringing this company up in the first place as something now definitely seems off with them. It’s a shame though that more companies don’t make this style of mattress with a very thin memory foam layer on top of latex or latex like materials.

The 4Sleep folks told me they were planning to update this info on their website and discuss with Phoenix. They asked me to give them a couple days…

Yeah, they told me that on Monday as well and there have been no changes. Deleting my Facebook post though was enough to make me decide to move on. I think I am probably going to bite the bullet and order the #BestMattressEver this weekend in the soft model. Mario at Brooklyn Bedding has told me that he believes at my light weight the soft model will be fine for me support wise. My hope is that 2" of soft talalay latex on top of the 2" of medium dunlop latex will be able to give me a somewhat similar feel to what I liked about the Weightless Tempurpedics. I figure with 120 day risk free guarantee from a very well respected company I have nothing to lose.

Hi zexpress,

Just to add some further information that was sent to me by one of the members that was doing some research into their site … you can see on this page of their site that 4Sleep is a DBA for Specialized Foam Products, LLC aka Purasleep.

They have also sent me an email inviting me to talk with them over the course of the next few days so I will add any additional information about them as a result of our conversation when I’ve had the chance to talk with them.

As you know the #BestMattressEver is a great quality/value choice and assuming that you decide to pull the trigger … congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback once you’ve had the chance to try it out.

Phoenix

You’d think being part of a known, established company would be something they would make a major part of their brand as opposed to making themselves seem like some married couple decided to make a mattress out of their house. Especially given how many true upstarts are out there now making these mattresses why go for deception when the truth is probably a better selling point in a crowded field.

Either way I am very excited about ordering from Brooklyn Bedding this weekend and I will definitely report back! :slight_smile:

Hi zexpress,

Just to update this topic and discussion … I had the chance to talk with Lori at 4sleep both yesterday and today. She was certainly knowledgeable, open, and transparent about themselves and their new mattress and I enjoyed our conversation. Their mattress uses good quality materials and outside of those that are in higher weight ranges (more than the low 200’s or so) there are no obvious weak links in their mattress so based on our conversation I’ve also added them to the list of “simplified choice” mattresses in post #3 here where you can see some of my comments about our conversation and their background as well.

Phoenix

Phoenix, what makes you comfortable now about the company history and long-term viability of the warranty?

Hi bmorgan,

The company doesn’t really have a history yet so I don’t have any thoughts about them from that perspective although they do have some prior history with Purasleep. Lori was open and transparent when I talked with her though and there was no “evasiveness” in the conversation (unlike many that I’ve had). She was happy to answer my questions about their mattress, their hopes for their company, and her thoughts about the industry in general, so to me that’s always an encouraging sign. Her husband also has some background in the industry prior to Purasleep. The conversation was a good one but of course time is always the biggest test about the longer term success of any company.

Warranties don’t mean a lot to me and they certainly aren’t a reliable indication of the durability or the useful life of a mattress or how long it may be until you will need to replace it. In terms of durability … a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality and durability of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label. A warranty only covers defects in the mattress (which tend to happen early in the life of a mattress) and they don’t cover the loss of comfort and support which is the reason that most people will need to replace a mattress (see post #174 here).

They are one of many new “simplified choice” mattresses that have recently launched or will be launching and it will be interesting how this whole category develops over the course of the next year or two in what is becoming a very crowded field although there are already some leaders emerging both in terms of growth and marketing and in terms of the quality/value of the mattresses.

Phoenix

A general note about warranties, since we’re on the topic:

Warranty is one of the most oversold items regarding mattresses in North America, and one of the least important items to consider when making a mattress purchase - IMHO.

If you look around the rest of the world, there are many products superior to what we find here domestically, yet their warranties tend to be shorter, more in the range of 1-5 years. Marketers know that consumers here equate (incorrectly) a longer warranty with a higher-quality product, so they place unrealistic warranties on very basic products.

Recently, Tempur-Sealy took a step in the right direction and reduced their warranties to 10 years on many of their items. Very few leaders in our industry here at home have been brave enough to speak about “over-warrantying” of mattresses. Gerry Borreggine, the CEO of Therapedic, is one of the few who has.

Warranties cover defects in workmanship, not the change and loss of comfort. As Phoenix mentioned, most warranty issues are early in the life of a mattress. And you really should reevaluate your mattress after a decade, no matter how good it is, so extra-long warranties really don’t hold much value.

In the end, focus on product quality. If you have the choice to pick an item made well using high-quality componentry with a shorter warranty, versus one using less durable componentry with a longer warranty. I’ll always advise to go with the item using the better componentry. A piece of paper won’t make your mattress last longer or feel better.

Hey everyone,

4Sleep has updated their “Our Story” page with more details and photos.

Hi DavidCaron,

I removed your link because promotional posts or advertising aren’t allowed on the forum (see the forum rules here).

I would also appreciate it if you could disclose any affiliation or relationship you or your company have with 4Sleep.

Phoenix