Another Newbie

Another Northeast Ohio shopper here – I came across this thread when I was doing another search. cn1ght, are you still searching, or did you finally find something you liked?

While the Englander Nature’s Finest Marilly Smooth Top discussed earlier apparently isn’t under consideration anymore, I happened to have some notes about it from when I was looking at the same mattress at Taylor Furniture in Brunswick last weekend, so I thought I’d share the specs that I had. This was the information posted in the store that I copied down (but it included no information on the density or anything):

Englander Natures Finest Marcilly Smooth Top:
3 in natural latex
3 in super poly foam
3 inch racetrack foam
5 in firm poly foam
Soy based poly foam
The price at Taylor’s was $1499 (so the under $599 quote you got was either in error on the part of the salesperson or an amazing deal!)

I rather liked the feel of the Englander mattress, but with little specifics as to the quality of materials, I haven’t been considering it. Taylor also had some hybrid (latex/innerspring) Englander mattresses. They’re apparently going to be expanding their Englander offerings in the showroom as they clear out some of their other mattresses.

Today I came across a store that actually had various Dormeo Octaspring mattresses to try out. Mattress Warehouse in Macedonia has several. (I tried them and found them too soft for my taste, but I like a firmer mattress.) I didn’t get the specs on them, but I don’t think these had any latex. (I could be wrong about that.)

It seems we’ve been to many of the same stores. Here are my notes on my experiences (along with some information to help update the “Cleveland” list):

I also went to Taylor Furniture in Brunswick. My experience was different than yours — there was a salesperson working with me the whole time I was there. While he was able to direct me to the types of mattresses I wanted to look at, he was totally unable to answer my questions about the density of the foam or the type of latex in any of the beds. I was very unimpressed and don’t plan to go back.

A note about Taylor Furniture for the Cleveland list — I went there because they carry Dutch Craft, and they did have a couple of Dutch Craft beds, but the salesman said they weren’t ordering from them any more because delivery was too slow (up to four weeks). They also had a two Boyd mattresses (mentioned in a post somewhere on this forum), but both were floor models that they were selling off. I was told that they are going to stop carrying Boyd in order to make room for more Englander mattresses. So it looks like they are getting rid of both the Boyd and the Dutch Craft mattresses that they have.

Another store that is supposed to carry Dutch Craft (according to the manufacturer’s website) is Griffith Home & Auto in Geneva. They no longer carry Dutch Craft either. The salesperson didn’t seem to know why; he thought maybe Dutch Craft had gone out of business, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. They did have a couple of Enso mattresses — the Dreamweaver and the 12" PureGel Blue Mist (I think)— which I found really comfortable (despite the fact that they apparently have lower quality materials, which is the only reason I haven’t pursued those yet, though I’m still tempted). I was surprised that I liked these, since I’ve found most gel-infused foam mattresses too squishy feeling. (I later learned that my mother had purchased an innerspring mattress from this store that developed a huge impression in the middle after only three months, and the store apparently told her they couldn’t do anything because her husband must have been “too heavy” for the mattress, even though he isn’t even overweight.) So, while the salesperson I dealt with was friendly enough, I don’t think I’d purchase anything from this store.

I did find Dutch Craft mattresses at J B Furnishings in Burton (an Amish store), but they are going out of business at that location, so they were selling off their floor models. While they did have one Dutch Craft Paradise Gel mattress (too soft for my taste), they no longer had any regular memory foam mattresses. They do however sell Dutch Craft mattresses (and other Amish furniture, crafts, and quilts) at a marketplace in Boardman and say they are doing good business there (they just started there in July). They gave me a card with their new business name and address:

Dutch Craft Furnishings (not to be confused with Dutch Craft, the mattress manufacturer)
Located at The Valley Market Place
6121 South Ave.
Boardman, OH 44512
Phone: 330-550-4192
Hours: Thurs. 9-6, Fri. 9-8, Sat. 8-4
(I believe the owners names are Betty and Levi Yoder)

Another Amish mattress option, which I learned about on these forums, is Country Bedding in Apple Creek, Ohio. They manufacture and sell their own mattresses. You have to go there in person, because they don’t have a phone. I took a trip down there last weekend. My experience was pretty much identical to brianj, who had posted some pretty detailed information about them on another thread here.

Country Bedding, 2696 S. Carr Rd, Apple Creek, OH 44606 - talked to Atlee Miller
They offer two memory foam mattresses
Both of them have 2 inches of memory foam on top and bottom (so they are flippable), with 6 inches of 2.4? pound polyfoam in middle (I have notes somewhere and can’t find them — I know it was more than 2 pounds for the polyfoam layer, but can’t remember the exact number)
The gel foam version has 4# Gel memory foam (I think it’s Aerus)
The regular memory foam version has 5# Sensus foam

I found the gel foam to be too soft for me (again, I like a firm mattress). The regular memory foam mattress felt really good overall and I rather liked it — my only reservation was that the edge sank more than I would like when sitting on the edge of the bed. (It was fine when laying on it though.) The construction is simple but solid, and Atlee talked at length about the quality of the materials they use. Prices are good - a queen set (mattress and foundation) is $864. Mattress only would be $768. He said they try to have one of each mattress in stock, but if they are out of stock it takes about a week to make one. They don’t deliver, but can provide the name and number of someone who does.

Original Mattress Factory - I went to the store in Macedonia, and found the sales staff to be very knowledgeable about their mattresses. I tried the two Serenity memory foam mattresses and the Serenity Latex. The regular Serenity memory foam mattress is a good firm mattress that I really liked a lot (said to be similar to the Tempurpedic Rhapsody Luxe - I would agree with that assessment). The Serenity Plush was too soft for me, so I didn’t get the specs on that. I rather liked the Serenity Latex as well, but probably not enough to spend the extra money.

Here are the specs on the Serenity (firm) memory foam - part is from the website and part I got from the salesperson:

10 1/2" thick overall:

⁃	1 1/2" High Density Memory Foam Topper ~ 10-16 ILD, 8 lb/ft Density
⁃	Air-Flow Layer  (if I recall correctly from viewing the cut-out, this was in between the two memory foam layers - it was relatively thin and looked like two layers of fabric with soft bristles or hairs in between.  Or it might have been between the memory foam and the core.)
⁃	2 1/2" High Density Memory Foam Topper ~ 8-14 ILD, 5 lb/ft Density
⁃	6" High Density Foam Core - 28-32 ILD, 2.25 lb

A queen Serenity set is $1499 (or $1319 for just the mattress), plus delivery and tax. (Delivery was $45 and tax was $104.22, bringing the quote to $1648.22 — a bit more than I’d like to pay.)

My notes on the Serenity Latex are not quite as complete. The latex has the advantage of being double-sided (flippable), while the memory foam is not. There are 3 inches of latex on each side (specs listed on their website), with a 4 1/2 inch 2.5 lb density core. They use Talalay latex (40% natural, 60% synthetic). Price for a queen set was $1719 (plus tax and delivery).

MattressMatters - we went to the one in Macedonia. The salesperson there was very personable and helpful and seemed to know her stuff, but I didn’t ask many in-depth questions there, since there wasn’t anything I fell in love with. In terms of memory foam, they had Tempurpedic (so I took the chance to try those out for comparison), as well as some of the other major brands (iComfort, etc.) which I’d previously tried in department stores before I found this forum. They also had AmeriGel (made by Southerland). Specs listed for the AmeriGel Atlanta (a medium firm mattress) were:

⁃	2 in of 3 lb gel infused memory foam
⁃	1.5 in luxury foam
⁃	7 in core high density performance foam

They also had some latex mattresses (Restonic).

Hope these notes are helpful to someone! I know I’ve benefitted greatly from all the detailed information that others have posted here. I’m still searching (endlessly it seems) for the perfect mattress at the perfect price point. I have calls in to the Amish manufacturers in Sugar Creek, and I’ll probably check out the Valley Market Place in Boardman, but now I’m shifting to seeing how online offerings compare to what’s available locally that I’ve liked.

Hi a2dox,

Wow … thanks for taking the time to share your comments, information, and experiences in such great detail … I really appreciate it :slight_smile:

I’ve also added a link to your post to the Cleveland list as well so that others can easily find it.

It’s great to see you are making such good use of the information here and while I realize that it can sometimes be frustrating to “extract” some of the specs you need to make an informed choice from some retailers … it’s always a breath of fresh air when you are dealing with better manufacturers or retailers that are more knowledgeable and that provide it more easily. In the end … it will be worth the time and effort it takes to make the best possible choice in terms of suitability, quality, and value.

I would be very cautious with Enso because they tend to use lower quality/density memory foam in their mattresses (in the range of 3 lb) which can result in the issues you mentioned.

I’ve added them to the Cleveland list as well … thank you.

Yes … the 1/2" airflow layer is in between the two memory foam layers. These are all high quality materials and there are no weak links in the mattress.

There is more about the Serenity Latex with the specs in post #4 here. They use two layers of latex (one is 19 ILD blended talalay and the other is 24 ILD blended Talalay) and the top 19 ILD layer is apparently 1" and the second 24 ILD layer is apparently 2". There would be no weak links in this mattress either. The Talalay blend would actually be closer to 30% Natural and 70% synthetic but this wouldn’t make any practical difference.

Thanks once again for taking the time to share such detailed comments and feedback.

Phoenix

a2dox did a significantly better job than I did in terms of finding material information. Compared to him I am actually a little embarrassed by how little material information I gathered. I am going to give a terribly formatted reply below, my apologies.

Just to give an update, since I rudely ceased posting without giving some sort of info, I am moving into a new apartment in the near future. On the 22nd (so just over a week from today) I will be signing a lease with a different apartment. The plan had been to find something and have them not ship it until after I had moved. I burnt myself out a bit having looked at so many mattresses within a week and have made no progress since my last posting. Also the whole apartment searching, failed job replacement searching (I am currently employed, I just hate my job)… Anyway, I may go back and review a few mattresses again in order to utilize the extremely useful information provided by a2dox.

Interestingly, I had tested the Serenity Latex mattress at the original mattress factor, however I was told somewhere else that “oh, they use sand” in the latex mattress by someone and never bothered to fact-check. This was compounded by the fact that I showed up just before they were closing so I rushed and did not do a thorough job there.

When I was at taylor’s there were no latex hybrid mentioned. However since I was basically pointed in a direction and left to go solo it is not surprising I was lacking info.

The Dormeo have some with latex and some without latex. I was told that there are (3) stores in the area which have Dormeo with latex, most have Dormeo without latex, so it depends on which location you visit.

I have not fully decided, but I may shift gears and attempt to order a latex mattress online in the end. From the very little I have looked into the matter (so a chance exists of me being wrong) sleepez ships the mattress in pieces (perhaps 3 layers each layer made from 2 pieces) which you easily put together. You call them, answer some questions, and based on their experience they decide which layers are which firmness. If you try it out and it is not to your liking you explain what you would prefer, they ship a replacement layer (maybe the first layer changes from soft to medium) and it can be customized for the first 90 days.

a2dox, if you read this I hope you can answer a question since we seem to have vaguely similar taste in mattresses (not the same, but similar enough for my question). What price range are you looking in? I ask because you mentioned that $1,648 is a bit more than you want to pay and I agree and am still arguing with myself if I want to drop over $1,500 for a latex mattress… I have never purchased a mattress before so I do not really have a basis for comparison other than “that is a lot of money” haha.

Hi cnight,

Thanks for the update.

Dormeo has three model lineups (see post #38 here and some of the other posts in the same topic) and the Serenite line is the one that has latex. A forum search on either Dormeo or on Octaspring (you can just click both links) will bring up more comments and feedback about them as well.

You are right on all counts here except that you can also adjust the comfort/pressure relief and/or support/alignment by rearranging layers and if this is all the “fine tuning” that’s necessary then you wouldn’t have to exchange a layer.

Phoenix

cn1ght, I can SO identify with being burned out looking for mattresses. And you’ve been apartment and job hunting at the same time?? Yikes!

In terms of price range, I keep vacillating on that. I really would like to be under $1000, but most of the things that I find that sound the most appealing are in the $1500 - $2000 range or higher. I just really have a hard time justifying spending that kind of money. Some days I think I should go ahead and find a way to take the plunge (hey, if it’s a great bed, it will last awhile, right?) and part of me says to forget about durability and go with a cheaper mattress – if it lasts 5 years or so, then I can afford to get another later. Then another part of me says I don’t want to have to go through this again that soon! Or maybe I should do a DIY and buy it in pieces … Having looked at my finances, I think I need to squelch the urge to get something expensive and focus on being a bit more frugal. It’s just hard to “settle” when you see that there are some really nice looking options out there.

Like you, I’m now considering online options, and maybe latex instead of memory foam, though I think a combination would be perfect. Or maybe something like Dreamfoam. Or maybe I’ll get the Country Bedding memory foam, or go back and check their latex bed. (They have a queen size two-sided latex euro-top mattress/foundation set for $963, or the mattress only for $799. I didn’t get the specs on it when I was there, though, so I’d have to make another trip down to Apple Creek to check it out. And they don’t take credit cards, which is another limiting factor.) Update: I just remembered that the latex bed is a hybrid with coils … so not an option after all, since I don’t want springs.

Another part of me is thinking I should forget traditional beds and just put some cushions on the floor.

Hi a2dox,

FWIW … and you will see this in many of the reference posts I link to … when you look back on a mattress purchase when the time comes to replace it you will remember much more about how well you slept and how long you slept well than you will about the price you paid for it (although price of course will always be an important part of “value”) and since a mattress can have a bigger effect on your overall wellbeing than almost anything else you can purchase … I would generally suggest the highest quality mattress you can comfortably afford and where you can notice a meaningful difference in terms of PPP and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are important to you.

Phoenix

Sweet, we are both in the same boat in terms of price. Now if only we knew which boat we were in that might be useful.

Just to throw 2 things out there: I personally think there is nothing wrong with just grabbing some good quality comfort level (maybe a 3" memory foam topper) and placing that on the floor. I suspect a reason this is not more mentioned is that you really are unable to test this strategy out until after you have purchased it and for most people this would be too firm, they would try to cheap too much and get a poor quality topper, and it would be too awkward for most to get into and out of. I have been switching between a blanket on top of carpet and my air mattress lately, and pathetically enough the blanket on carpet is more comfortable as often as not…

The second thing, some people love sleeping in a hammock. You can buy a stand or punch holes in places and support it that way. I actually own a hammock and I intended to sleep in the hammock. I really did intend to. Problem being that it is my personal experience if you do not sleep on your back then you are not going to sleep on a hammock for more than a an hour or 2.

The only other thing to mention, as I suck at short messages and must make them longer when possible, is about the price. If you spend $1,000 and need to replace it in 5 years or spend $1,500 and replace it in 15 years one of those ended up being cheaper than it originally seemed. This ignores the fact that you would probably have slept better on the $1,500 one. I am trying to retire early and so am cutting costs where I can (is why I am changing apartments), even so I figure if I can talk you into getting the more expensive mattress then you can return the favor and talk me into paying a healthy amount also.

Hi cn1ght,

Interestingly enough there is a hammock forum here that is amazingly active and it seems that there are many people who like sleeping in a hammock as their primary sleeping system :slight_smile:

I completely agree with your reasoning here. While I know there is a strong pull to the logic of choosing a mattress that costs half as much as another one in the hopes it will last half as long … this rarely works out in “real life” because there are so many variables involved and many of the lowest budget mattresses use such low quality materials that for many people it may only be a very few years (or in some cases only a few months) before foam softening and breakdown takes its toll and the loss of comfort and support means that are only “tolerating it” at best and at worst they may no longer be able to sleep on it at all and may need to replace it much sooner than they expected.

Phoenix

Just to give an update: I just got off the phone with Shawn from SleepEz. He was friendly over the phone. There were only a few questions about which mattress specs. I ordered an 8" Queen mattress currently on special for $1,245. 2" Talaly, 3" Dunlop, 3" Dunlop. The firmness for these in same order will be soft, medium, firm. I was told it will be shipped tomorrow and it should arrive by no later than Friday, Oct 10. I mentioned that I am a member of this website and since the mattress is already on special instead of the 5% discount I will receive a free pillow. I did not order a cover nor a support for the mattress at this time. Due to moving apartments there are a huge amount of costs hitting at once: deposit+normal rent, AT&T charged $99 for installation and $100 for the modem which I am required to use, renter’s insurance needed to be renewed, the list goes on actually… Point being that were it not for the fact that the air mattress is clearly not the best sleeping choice I would have put this off for another month, but my sleep is a bit more important right now hah. I do suspect that I will purchase a support in the future as I noticed in a posting made elsewhere that while good airflow is less important for latex mattresses relative to other types, it is still helpful to have and I do not think the wood floors allow for much airflow…

Somethings I perhaps should have asked over the phone and did not:

  1. Is buying some sort of bug/sweat protection cover a good idea for latex?

  2. The Latex goes into a cotton covering. Does this covering need to be washed or only the bed-sheet on top?

I will give updates after I get the mattress and try it out for a few days.

Hi cn1ght,

Thanks for the update … and you certainly made a great quality/value choice!

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Yes … a mattress protector is a good idea for any mattress regardless of whether it is latex or any other material. There is more about the pros and cons of the different types of mattress protectors in post #89 here that can help you choose the type that is the best “match” for your criteria.

Generally it doesn’t need to be washed if you have a mattress protector on top of it that can easily be removed and cleaned and which will protect the mattress from stains and accidents along with the body fluids and skin cells that we release each night so you can keep your sleeping surface in a clean and hygienic condition. It will also protect the warranty because most warranties are voided if there are any stains on the mattress. For the most part … mattress covers only need to be spot cleaned when necessary or vacuumed once in a while but if the care instructions indicate that it can be washed or dry cleaned without damage then you can clean them once in a while as well if it becomes necessary.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve received your new mattress and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

Hello…
The mattress underground is one where we are able to find new and interesting topics of our interest
Enjoying a lot …
:woohoo:

Hi kelly3car,

I switched your post to a more general topic.

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Phoenix

So the mattress arrived today. I am actually a little confused by this as I thought the UPS site said that a signature was required, but when I got home from work it was sitting there waiting for me. Works out better this way, do not need to somehow fit it into my car.

So silly me spent like 15 minutes getting the 3 layers (3" Firm Dunlop, 3" Medium Dunlop, 2" Soft Talalay) to fit semi well only to realize that I forgot to put the covering down first… I spent another dozen or so minutes trying to cram the layers into the covering most of the time thinking that they must have sent a full size cover or something as the layers did not want to fit.

As I was finally about to zip close the cover I noticed something which I am not thinking is good.

http://imgur.com/d9KBwqM,jfJWxYA

The 2" Soft has an area maybe 6" X 6" or so where the layer has tears. I failed to take good pictures I now see, but the first image shows that there are very rough spots between the holes, the second image shows one a few tears where the latex just pulls apart maybe an inch to and inch and a half deep. This is not something which is consistent through the top layer so I suspect that either maybe I tore it or more likely (I think due to all of the “defects” near the holes) that the latex was not manufactured properly. I also did not check the other 2 layers and I do not know how much of an issue this is and honestly as this point me sleeping on an actual mattress for the first time in more than 6 months matters more. I do not recall this being mentioned elsewhere on this forum, is this something I should contact SleepEZ about?

Initial impression: S,M,F is too soft. I think that my thighs/hips are sinking too much, my shoulders are fine. I am not about to screw around with it and will leave it be for a few days as my body gets used to a real mattress instead of the air mattress which I was only to happy to deflate, hopefully forever.

Other details, I bought a mattress protector from MattresMatters, it is the basic “Protect-a-bed”. I was going to buy the $99 one but the salesman told me that it would not make much of a difference for a latex mattress? I will admit that the samples he had out I could not tell the difference between the $99 and the $39. He insisted that the $99 was better at transferring heat, but who knows. I then made up for this immediately followed as I bought a Sheex Queen mattress sheet set for $161.99… I did glance through the forum and this was a very highly rated sheet in one of the other threads. On the other hand, I really probably should have spent like half of this on the linen one right next to it.

After the fact I now see that I could have added the pictures directly to this site instead of using imgur. Today is not a good day for doing things correctly it seems.

Hi cnight,

Thanks for the update … I appreciate it!

This is fairly typical and most people that are putting together a latex component mattress go through a period of time that they don’t think that the layers will fit … until they do :slight_smile:

Judging by your pictures this seems to be in a very normal range and there is nothing to worry about. Latex usually has small tears, voids, imperfections, or discoloration that is a normal part of the manufacturing process and in many cases there are more than your layer which looks fine to me. There is more about this here.

Latex can also be fragile if you tug or pull it and can tear easily so it’s important to lift and “wave” it into position when you are positioning the layers but this also isn’t something that will affect the performance of the material if there is a small rip or tear. There are some assembly instructions on the SleepEZ site here as well.

There will always be an initial break in and adjustment period with any new mattress and your body will need to get used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to and I would generally wait at least a couple of weeks before considering any changes unless for some reason there was no other reasonable alternative (see post #3 here).

Phoenix

Cn1ght"

I am about your weight and looking at a firm, firm, medium or firm, medium, medium layering.

I am leaning towards the firmer mattress but a sales agent cautioned that after a full night sleep it may feel firmer than simply laying on it for a short time at the store. Transitioning from a pillow-top I realize it may take some time for my body to adjust (and I am okay with that), however I am concerned that the more time I spend on the mattress it will break in and feel softer - I like the firm, medium, medium but don’t think I would want the resistance to lessen.

So I am curious if you have adjusted and become comfortable or if you think you will exchange any of your layer?

Hi Malachai_31,

I’m not Cn1ght of course but I thought I would chime in with a comment :).

I would agree with the person you talked with and if you are used to a pillowtop then even F/M/M latex will most likely feel firmer to you than the pillowtop you are used to. I would also be aware that the type of latex, the thickness of the layers, and the type of cover that you use will all make a difference in how firm a mattress feels as well.

Phoenix

I am still in the process of transitioning. At the moment I am using (top - bottom)

Bed sheet-Pillow topper-Mattress protector-Cotton covering-Soft-Medium-Firm

The cotton covering is the overall “mattress” part which zips closed to hold the layers together and makes it look like a mattress. I am actually a little disappointed overall I guess and am hoping it is still in a transition phase, the mattress I liked at MattressMatters was more comfortable in my opinion than what I got from SleepEZ, the pillow topper I added helps but not quite there… Actually, it is slightly annoying to know that I bought a $1,200 mattress and had to add a pillow topper, whereas if I had bought from MattressMatters I would have loved it as it came. Having said that, with the price difference I am not about to switch however I not sure this ended much better than a normal spring mattress shrug. We will see what happens in the next week or 2. If I do end up switching it will be either to get an additional Medium or Soft.

Just to throw out other info not related to the question: I currently have (2) different bed sheets. “Sheex” which is a material similar to under armor and “linen” which is 100% polyester if I recall correctly. I prefer the linen one as it has a more “mattress” feel. I also have tried both with and without the mattress protector to see if that was a major cause of my dissatisfaction, the difference with or without does exist, but that is not a large factor in what I want versus what I am getting. I have not tried changing layers yet, so far the most I have done is try different setups with the protector, different sheets, and the pillow topper. The setup I currently prefer is the one I typed out above with bed sheet=linen.

[quote=“Phoenix” post=43816]

Thank you for your reply. It actually addresses another concern: that the SleepEZ top layer will be a 2-in Talalay instead of a 3-in Dunlop we had tried. The Talalay vs Dunlop firmness didn’t seem dramatic (but I may feel different after 8 hours on it!) and I can’t decide if being a little softer on top of two firms would be a good compromise or if being an inch thinner will make it feel firmer as I would compress it that much easier/completely?

Thank you for the update, cn1ght, and sorry to hear your not more comfortable. Though, I’m surprised to hear you say you are thinking of another soft layer if you feel the bed is too soft now…

[quote=“Phoenix” post=43816]

Thank you for your reply. It actually addresses another concern: that the SleepEZ top layer will be a 2-in Talalay instead of a 3-in Dunlop we had tried. The Talalay vs Dunlop firmness didn’t seem dramatic (but I may feel different after 8 hours on it!) and I can’t decide if being a little softer on top of two firms would be a good compromise or if being an inch thinner will make it feel firmer as I would compress it that much easier/completely?

Thank you for the update, cn1ght, and sorry to hear your not more comfortable. Though, I’m surprised to hear you say you are thinking of another soft layer if you feel the bed is too soft now…

Hi Malachai_31,

In general thinner top layers will feel firmer because they will compress to a greater percentage of their thickness faster and will “allow” more of the firmness of the layers below them to “come through”. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. If you have a thinner top layer that is also softer it can be somewhat “paradoxical” because the softer layer will feel softer with initial compression but you will also sink into it more deeply so you may feel more of the firmness of the layer below it as well so it can have a “combination feel” of being softer and firmer at the same time depending on whether you are more sensitive to the surface feel or the feel that comes from sinking in a little more deeply.

Phoenix