Berkeley Ergonomics mattress

I made the mistake of believing a sales man, and buying without researching.

After I got my Berkeley Ergonomics mattress, I did a little research and realized almost everything I was told was not true.

I was told the mattress was organic. Turns out itā€™s not. The mattress cover isnā€™t organic, the latex isnā€™t organic, thereā€™s a bunch of synthetic Polypropylene that covers all the springs, and there are chemicals in the latex.

So much for it being organic or ā€œall naturalā€.

Just want to remind everyone to research before buyingā€¦

Hi Taylorajay,

I would agree with you that itā€™s a good idea to do some research before you buy any mattress and itā€™s unfortunate that you didnā€™t read their website before you made your purchase.

I think highly of Berkeley Ergonomics and they certainly make some very high quality mattresses. While I wasnā€™t part of your conversation so I donā€™t know what any specific salesperson may have told you ā€¦ I donā€™t know of any Berkeley Ergonomics dealers that make any claims about their mattresses being certified organic and they provide accurate information about all the materials and components in their mattresses so it would have been very easy to confirm the information that they provided just by reading their website. Their covers actually do use certified organic cotton and certified organic wool but the latex is 100% natural Talalay (there isnā€™t any Talalay latex that has an organic certification) and of course the steel in their innersprings doesnā€™t have an organic certification either. As you mentioned the only synthetic material in their mattresses is the polypropylene they use to cover the pocket coils but itā€™s also a completely ā€œsafeā€ material.

Most people that are looking for an ā€œorganicā€ mattress or materials are usually concerned more with ā€œsafetyā€ than whether the materials have an actual organic certification. There is more information about the three different levels of organic certifications in post #2 here and some of the benefits of an organic certification in post #3 here and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications such as Oeko-tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold, C2C, and CertiPUR-US in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons or whether a ā€œsafetyā€ certification is enough.

There have been some recent and unfounded criticisms about BE by someone that is on some kind of ā€œvendettaā€ that is almost certainly from a competitor that is very misleading and include some comments that are very similar to yours so hopefully your comments arenā€™t being influenced by some very misleading online information.

Phoenix

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Yes, I should have confirmed with berkeley ergo all I had been told. Had I done so, I would have realized that what the sales man told me was untrue. That is why I made my postā€¦to just remind people to double check what you are told by sales people.

Yes, I have seen the criticism that you mentioned. Do you mean the web site about berkeley? Do you have a few minutes where you can review the site and tell me what parts are untrue (unfounded & misleading). I would love to learn I was not mislead but I am pretty sure I was. The site is www.mymattressreview-berkeley.com in case you have not seen it. The pages that gave me the most information were the home page and the false organic claims page. There are berkeley dealers that advertise ā€˜organic mattressā€™. You can see them on the site.

I spoke to berkeley ergo and they did clarify that their mattresess are not organic and either is their cover. I do not have a problem with berkeley, they did not mislead me the sales man did.

Hi Taylorajay,

I agree thatā€™s a good idea with any mattress although it can take some research to know what claims need to be verified or which questions to ask.

I was referring to comments made about Berkeley Ergonomics that Iā€™ve seen in a number of places around the internet (not just one) that were clearly made by someone that was on a personal vendetta against Berkeley Ergonomics and for the most part were exaggerated, misleading, and overly critical. To me they appeared to be from a competitor that had an agenda to harm the reputation of a good manufacturer. My guess is that the website you referred to was probably from the same person although I donā€™t know that for certain. They certainly seem to have a ā€œthingā€ against polypropylene and against BE.

While I certainly donā€™t have the time to go through it all ā€¦ I donā€™t mind making some comments about a few of the statements they make.

They donā€™t make any claims about having an organic mattress and this implies that they do. Someone that doesnā€™t know this and only reads the website you linked could easily think that BE is claiming to have an organic mattress and would already be predisposed towards having a negative opinion about them.

The cover uses certified organic cotton and certified organic wool so the raw materials themselves have an organic certification even though the cover itself isnā€™t certified organic as a final product after manufacturing. For 99% of consumers knowing that the ā€œingredientsā€ were certified organic would be enough and itā€™s very unlikely that they would even be aware that there are different levels of organic certifications ā€¦ or even care.

As I mentioned they seem to have something against polypropylene which is a completely safe material and is used in the fabric that encases the pocket coils. To me this would be a non issue although this is much of the basis for their criticisms. They have always been open about this for those customers that are concerned enough to ask about the type of fabric that covers the coils (see post #4 here as an example).

They have never claimed that it was. There is no Talalay latex that has an organic certification but it does have an Oeko-tex certification and a C2C certification as well (see post #2 here). Again this is very misleading because an unwary consumer may believe that they are claiming that their latex is organic when they arenā€™t.

[quote]Turns out that the Berkeley Ergonomics coil mattresses contain a LOT of synthetic Polypropylene.

The Polypropylene covers all the springs in the mattress. It is not a small amount that could be missed. [/quote]

This is a complete exaggeration because the fabric that covers the springs is a very small percentage of the whole mattress.

[quote]The latex in my Berkeley Ergo coil mattress also contains 23 chemicals. 22 of the chemicals deemed ā€œmoderately problematic, but acceptable for useā€, and one chemical deemed ā€œunknownā€. You can view the

2-page Material Health Certificate for the latex used in my bed here.[/quote]

This is also completely misleading since none of the chemicals are harmful and their comments come from a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the C2C certification (which is most likely done on purpose so that once again the people that read their site are predisposed to think negatively about BE). Radium that makes their Talalay latex deserves credit for the time and effort it took to achieve the C2C certification and not criticism. You can read much more about this in post #13 here and the rest of the topic which discussed this extensively.

I could go on but itā€™s really not worth it since itā€™s clear to me that they are just ā€œout to getā€ Berkeley Ergonomics for their own personal reasons and agenda and their website and the similar comments they have made around the web have very little credibility.

Berkeley Ergonomics is among the most transparent manufacturers in the industry and itā€™s a shame that a single person with an obvious agenda and that is probably a competitor can ā€œsprayā€ unfounded criticisms all over the web and have that big an impact on the well deserved reputation of a good quality and reputable manufacturer that they even merit a reply in the BE Q&A section on their site (see the ā€œwhat about the bad reviewsā€ section).

Phoenix

thanks for taking the time to check it out. It was not my intention to make this into a big issue.

Just to put a final pin in it though, I think everything is based on the fact that the Berkeley dealers ARE making false organic mattress claims. I think if the dealers were not making false ā€œorganic mattressā€ claims, there would be nothing for anyone to complain about. Naturally I have sympathy for anyone who was told a mattress was organic, when its not, because it happened to me.

As proof, here are some of the false organic mattress claims from some Berkeley Ergonomic dealers
In case the link doesnā€™t work, I grabbed a few off the site and wiā€™ll post a few hereā€¦
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: mymattressreview-berkeley.com/false-organic-claims.html

Berkeley advised me that their cover is not organic but it is ā€œmade withā€ organic cotton, so that is the organic cover issue.

Again, I have no beef with Berkeley. Itā€™s the Berkeley Ergo sales person who mislead to me.

Thank you for taking time with me. I wonā€™t bug you anymore. I feel a bit better after learning from you but I definetly was mislead buy a berkeley ergonomics sales person.

Hi Taylorajay,

I probably look at things a little bit differently than you do based on a broader view of the many different parts of the industry ā€œas a wholeā€.

While I completely agree that there is a great deal of confusing or misinformation information about ā€œorganicā€ materials in the industry and on the web ā€¦ both in terms of the potential benefits of organic materials (which are often exaggerated or misrepresented as somehow meaning ā€œsafeā€) and in terms of what ā€œorganicā€ actually means ā€¦ I also differentiate between ā€œorganicā€ used as a ā€œsoftā€ marketing term in combination with accurate descriptions of the materials in a mattress or topper (including the materials that arenā€™t certified organic) and ā€œcertified organicā€ used as a specific description of a mattress or a material.

Asking the right questions or asking about which specific materials in a mattress are certified organic would generally ā€œcut throughā€ any confusion but most consumers donā€™t know what they donā€™t know about organic materials and certifications and in many cases have often come to believe that organic means something other than what it does because different ā€œdefinitionsā€ of ā€œorganicā€ can be confusing to say the least.

An analogy would be buying food from a local farm that grows their food organically but havenā€™t actually gone through the expense of the certification process that allows them to label their food ā€œcertified organicā€ (with the additional cost passed on to consumers with no corresponding benefit for the higher price). Most consumers would be satisfied that the food they buy is ā€œorganic enoughā€ even though an organic certification with food is even more important and meaningful than an organic certification with mattress materials.

The different levels of organic certifications can also be so confusing that many salespeople in the industry also arenā€™t fully informed about ā€œorganicā€ terminology either and provide information to their customers that they have come to believe or have been told by what they believe to be a reliable source even though itā€™s not ā€œtechnicallyā€ correct. This also doesnā€™t mean that they are lying ā€¦ only that they probably arenā€™t fully informed about what really is organic and what isnā€™t. In some cases some of the different definitions can come down to ā€œsplitting hairsā€.

On the other hand ā€¦ the benefits of ā€œorganicā€ certifications are also greatly exaggerated by some parts of the industry and are often used as a justification for charging prices that are much higher than other similar products and in some cases can approach price gouging or implying that organic mattresses are somehow ā€œsaferā€ than other materials that donā€™t have an organic certification which of course isnā€™t necessarily the case. In other words there is a great deal of misinformation and somewhat ā€œquestionableā€ practices on all sides of the organic part of the industry.

Overall ā€¦ while I would like to see more consistency in the industry in terms of terminology such as organic, green, natural, ā€œchemical freeā€ and many other terms that can be confusing and misleading so that there is more consistent and accurate information throughout the industry ā€¦ in many cases the differences between different descriptions and definitions are blurred or fuzzy and I personally donā€™t have a significant issue with a retailer that uses ā€œsoftā€ organic descriptions as long as they donā€™t blatantly and purposefully misrepresent what they are selling in an attempt to mislead and they also accurately describe the specific materials in their mattresses, can tell you which components have an organic certification and which ones donā€™t, and that donā€™t describe a specific material or component in a product as having an organic certification when it doesnā€™t (and they should be able to provide you with the actual certification for any specific component that they are saying is certified organic). In other words I differentiate between ā€œblatantā€ and ā€œpurposefulā€ misrepresentation and information that isnā€™t completely or technically accurate but is more ā€œbenignā€.

Itā€™s especially unfortunate IMO when manufacturers or retailers that are more transparent about the materials and components in their mattresses than 90% or more of the industry and really do try and provide more accurate and meaningful information about their products are specifically ā€œtargetedā€ (often by their competition) when there are so many other misrepresentations in the industry that are much more misleading and blatant.

If every more ā€œbenignā€ or slightly inaccurate claim in the industry was subject to the type of unfair (IMO) scrutiny, criticism, and ā€œtoneā€ that BE has been subject to as a result of a single personā€™s opinions that go ā€œviralā€ or has decided to go to ā€œwarā€ with a company based on their own hidden agenda then an increasing number of manufacturers that sell good quality/value and ā€œsafeā€ mattresses that may even contain some organic materials may become even less willing to provide any meaningful information at all because they would question the benefits of doing so when even minor issues or inconsistencies in their descriptions or efforts to educate their customers or a mistake made by a single salesperson can have such a harmful effect on a reputation and business that they have built over the course of many years.

I appreciate and respect those manufacturers and retailers that ā€œdo their bestā€ to provide meaningful and accurate information about their products even if they arenā€™t always 100% accurate or if some of the information they provide may be somewhat unclear or subject to misunderstanding because they are so uncommon in the industry as a whole but I also realize that I may be a little more ā€œtolerantā€ than some because I take a much broader view of the industry and am more focused on more serious misrepresentations or misinformation and I also realize that ā€œmarketing considerationsā€ will also play a role to some degree if any business wants to succeed in a very tough industry. I also realize that not everyone may agree with my opinions :slight_smile:

Phoenix

We did have a Berkeley Ergonomics mattress for a while and I did find it to be of very good quality, NOT that I am an expert. But, from everything I could research, they are a very good quality mattress.

For us it just came down to feel and while it was not uncomfortable per our own preferences, it was also not what we thought to be comfortable. I really never could put my finger on this, except that from what Iā€™ve learned, I donā€™t think I personally like latex as the top layer, I like a little more of a memory foam feel on top with latex as the next layer down to still provide good support & bounce. But, that is just my personal preference. Otherwise, I thought the BE mattress was a very well constructed mattress and I liked that you could unzip and see everything inside as well.

Been selling Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses for a few years now, the mattresses have performed tremendously, no issues with anything breaking down prematurely. ALL materials in the mattresses are tested by 3rd party labs for safety, some materials do have organic certificates however I find this to be less important than safety given you can also buy organic cigars. They are very comfortable and very well priced for a high performance almost completely natural mattress, minus the polypropylene fabric the coils are wrapped in which is used for performance reasons (durability, less absorbent than cotton, dries faster).

The tactics used by this individual to intentionally smear and cause as much damage to a company that actually deserves credit for being a shining example of a high quality transparent manufacturer is just despicable.

Although to be fair I also think that many of the components in the mattresses also contain trace amounts of dihydrogen monoxide which is known to kill people if you inhale it into your lungs.

^^^ That was sarcasm, lest I be contributing to the fear mongering.

Hi [email protected],

Needless to say ā€¦ I couldnā€™t agree with you more!

[quote]Although to be fair I also think that many of the components in the mattresses also contain trace amounts of dihydrogen monoxide which is known to kill people if you inhale it into your lungs.

^^^ That was sarcasm, lest I be contributing to the fear mongering. [/quote]

Ever since Iā€™ve read this site Iā€™ve been making a point of drinking 8 glasses of water every day to help my body flush this dangerous chemical out of my system :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Frankly there is not a mattress manufacturer who exists today that is capable of producing an ā€œorganicā€ mattress. Not in the truest sense of the word.

Container ships are fumigated when they dock in a new country. This is to eradicate pests that infest all types of goods, warehouses and transportation methods.

Given that Canada and the USA do not have rubber trees, it is necessary to source ā€œorganic latexā€ from other countries. This subjects the latex to this fumigation at port of entry.

EDIT - apologies, I should clarify a bit here. If the container in question has latex on plastic shipping skids, it may avoid being fumigated. Most skipping skids are still made of wood, though. This is a tough one to have certainty either direction.

In my humble opinion, this one issue alone should preclude the use of the word organic in any mattress which contains latex.

And even then, if you said hey, we have an organic mattress without latex, then my question would be: ā€œdid you have to transport any of the materials and if so, how were they packaged?ā€ The answer is more than likely to be ā€œyes, and plasticā€

If someone wants to become an organic farmer and rancher, and they want to grow their own hemp or cotton, raise their own sheep, perhaps grow a bunch of dandelion (you can get latex from these fantastically annoying weeds!) and then take all of this and locally produce, then perhaps that would be a proper organic mattressā€“but that person had better ensure theyā€™re not using machinery of any kind, because the machinery either has various emissions or might have needed to be lubricated with oil.

Anyway, I went off on a bit of a rant for sure. Berkeley Ergonomics is a great company. Iā€™ve been in this industry nearly 20 years and theyā€™re among the most loyal, honest, hard working folks in this business. I think a lot of competitors in particular are very critical of BE as theyā€™re very hard to compete with. I know even within our own supplier mix that there is certainly some animosity towards BE, and I believe this to be the case simply because they are so good at what they do, and at a very reasonable price.

Being 100% perfect is literally not possible, but Iā€™d hazard to say BE comes pretty darn close.

Organic mattress makers in particular have a hard time with the BE pricing structure because frankly, most organic mattresses are being sold for considerably more money (often because organic certificates cost a fair bit of money). For our company, this is not an issue. We have mattresses which range into the tens of thousands of dollars. Iā€™m merely trying to illustrate that Berkeley tries very hard to deliver excellent value for money and I believe that some of their competitors are remarkably challenged in this area.

Ultimately there is a lot of evolution still to come in the ā€œorganic mattressā€ space. Organic is a bit of a fad, and as with any fad, itā€™ll die off a fair bit in the next 5-10 years. The good news is that this will be replaced by the more sustainable approach of a ā€œhealthy mattressā€ - organic materials where appropriate, but with more focus on quality and value rather than marketing.

We already see a lot of this happening. The number of consumers coming into our stores that view ā€œorganicā€ as a negative term, is actually quite alarming. 5 years ago, this term carried far more weight. Retailers and manufacturers relying upon the ā€œorganicā€ angle will be left behind, no doubt.

Iā€™ll close this by saying I have nothing against the desires of wanting to live a clean, healthy, sustainable life. Organic practises are certainly capable of contributing to some of these ideals. My point is only that organic is not the ā€œend-all, be-allā€ when it comes to achieving these goals, ā€œorganicā€ is simply too narrow-minded.

We can only all hope for a day that DHMO is eliminated from all mattress products. Such a powerful chemical, universal solvent. B)

I also want to talk about the term ā€˜organicā€™ for a moment. In the strictest sense of the word which has an origin in chemistry. Organic materials are anything that contains carbon. Carbon is the chemistry of life here on Earth and that is how the term Organic chemistry came to be known.

So technically speaking, since most synthetic materials are carbon based they are indeed organic. The VOCā€™s that people worry about are called Volatile ORGANIC Compounds. So technically just because something is Organic does not make it safe. This is why every material used in these mattresses are tested for safety, the emphasis on safety being the key thing.

The term organic with regards to organic certificates and what people ā€˜thinkā€™ it means is something wholly different. USDA organic has an approved list of synthetic chemicals for both crop and livestock production. Most people think organic means it is 100% free of such chemicals. The USDA has a wonderful criteria to meet but its just not what most people believe it to mean. And while the criteria is certainly good, any criteria for organic certification is by definition arbitrary and actually misleading in and of itself because it is a departure from the strictest sense of the word in chemistry. So to me there is an irony here if not a complete double standardā€¦

People think organic means ā€˜safeā€™, all the safety certificates including Oeko-Tex Standard 100 for the fabric used for the coils in these mattresses really mean more than arbitrary organic certificates. So for this person to have such a vendetta because one sales person did not have a complete grasp on chemistry is just ludicrous.

Apparently to be able to sell a mattress to someone today we need to be accredited engineers, doctors perhaps, and chemists. To be anything less would simply just be bad service and deserving of any criticism they receive no matter how off base.

^^ More sarcasm, because I donā€™t trust it will always be read correctly :slight_smile:

Daniel-Are you with tmasc.ca? If so, donā€™t you have FOUR false (Berkeley Ergonomic) organic claims on your site right now? tmasc.ca/organic-mattress-toppers/organic-talalay-latex-pillow-top.html It appears you falsely claim ā€œOrganic Topperā€ twice (1" and 2" models) and describe them each as ā€œA true organic topper!ā€.

I think retailers that advertise with false organic claims for EXPENSIVE items are FAR more despicable than a consumer who is pointing out the false claims.

I think consumers want to know the truth.

Also, if Berkeley is so transparent, why donā€™t they advise/educate the dealers to stop making false claims?

Hi Taylorajay,

In an earlier post you say ā€¦

ā€¦ and yet you are doing exactly that.

I am beginning to suspect that you are either the same person that I was referring to in my earlier posts or that you are part of a ā€œteamā€ that is on a vendetta against BE. It certainly seems clear that the only reason you came here was to attack Berkeley Ergonomics since you have posted about nothing else since you became a member here.

These are not the actions of a typical consumer that would state their opinions and read the extensive replies and then ā€œagree to disagreeā€ and allow others that read this topic to make up their own minds.

You have had your say and made the points you wanted to make and you have had the chance to read the extensive replies to your comments. While I realize that you may have different opinions from those that have replied to you (including myself) ā€¦ itā€™s time to let the topic rest and move on to other issues and let the other members that read this topic make up their own minds about any agenda you may have and about Berkeley Ergonomicā€™s transparency and the quality, value, and safety of their mattresses.

Phoenix

Taylorajay,

I would hope to have some positive discourse but since I am clearly a despicable human being I am not sure if this is even worth trying. Its certainly never our intention to mislead people, quick 60 seconds of work fixes the issue.

But again if you actually read my last post, the word organic itself in any of these marketing terms is misleading, and the products that carry all of the organic certificates are actually substantially more money by comparison. So if we are misleading people into buying less expensive product that hits the same degree of safety regulation or higher (like C2C Gold) than I accept this indictment because you are speaking of a victim-less crime that was an honest mistake being made in the first place.

Your vitriolic post here is speaking to your own actions to remain willfully ignorant about chemistry, what is safe, what is marketing, what is real and actually what is true. I think Phoenix is right; I have suspected from the beginning that you are one and the same person or person(s) and are simply playing a part because you feel that you have not caused enough damage to an honest company that builds excellent products.

If you would be so kind to remove your listing of us from this page as I have fixed the topper pages would be much appreciated.

ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: mymattressreview-berkeley.com/false-organic-claims.html

You were the one that called the person reporting the false claims, ā€œdespicableā€ā€¦am I not allowed to point out the irony of your false organic claims, while you are calling someone else despicable?

I dont see where my attitude has been vitriolic at all. I am just a consumerā€¦not in the mattress biz. If I offended you or your firm, please accept my appology. .

Hi Taylorjay,

Now that everyone has had their say so that anyone who reads this topic can make up their own minds about your identity or affiliations or the reasons you are posting here along with the issues that have been discussed ā€¦ I am locking the topic for any further discussion.

Phoenix