Brooklyn Bedding has changed materials

Hi BG4,

Iā€™m sorry your girlfriend doesnā€™t like the feel of the new BME mattress :frowning: , as she was expecting it to feel exactly like your old one, which of course it wouldnā€™t, as it uses different materials.

Mattress companies are constantly updating their products and models rarely stay the same year after year, so your girlfriendā€™s case is a good example that as a consumer if youā€™re trying to approximate the same product bought at a previous time, no matter how recent, the onus is upon you to always check the specifications on the law tag of the mattress your trying to compare to just to double-check if things have changed in any way in the current model youā€™d be ordering. As she didnā€™t personally order your mattress back in May, Iā€™m sure she didnā€™t notice the new introduction of the TitanFlex foam and thought nothing of it, assuming it to be like your mattress. Itā€™s unfortunate, but it happens at times.

You are correct that the new mattress uses a high-density, high-performance polyfoam in the place of the upper latex layers, and that while still buoyant, has a feel different from latex. The polyfoam core is also harder (36 vs. 32 ILD) than the old version. There also seems to be a bit longer break-in process with the new mattress. But I wouldnā€™t go so far as to take your opinion of the new mattress and turn it into a de facto statement, which of course it isnā€™t. The change in design has been discussed quite a bit here on the forum, and many people like the new feel. But they were also aware of the change in specifications and not caught ā€œoff-guardā€ like your girlfriend apparently was.

[quote]Dear Brooklyn beddingā€¦ I tried to promote your product and tell everyone how much I liked itā€¦ But you Fā€™ed up and desided to cheap out and change your bottom lineā€¦
By switching to a cheaper foam and conseal it under a fancy name Titanflex.[/quote]

Of course, you have absolutely no personal knowledge of any of the "factsā€™ you just stated. You have no idea of the cost of the new polyfoam core compared to the previous generation, nor do you have any idea of cost of the TitanFlex foam, nor the cost of the research and development that went into the product, nor the market research and reasoning behind the change in design (you can read about some of the explanations here).

Not liking the feel of a new version of a mattress doesnā€™t entitle site members here to make unsubstantiated claims about the motives for a mattress companyā€™s decision to make a change in product design. Youā€™re certainly entitled to your opinion on the feel of this or any other mattress (as many people discuss here), and Iā€™m happy to have discussions about that, but your commentary needs to be fact-based and not what is in essence an ad hominem attack against a company.

And to add to Sweet Dreamā€™s point (thanks Sweet Dreams), your girlfriend fortunately did have the foresight to purchase something that does have a good return policy, so in the end sheā€™ll be able to get a refund and find another product.

And hereā€™s the good news. If you want the old design, it was pointed out yesterday by someone on the forum that the old version can still be found in a few places online, like here.

I do appreciate your post, because it allows me to be able to point out (as I do from time to time) how mattresses change in design and the consumerā€™s responsibility to compare specifications before making a purchase, especially when trying to ā€œmatchā€ certain mattresses.

Phoenix

Iā€™m curious, I contacted dream foam to see the ILD of the core of the mattress I ordered (eurotop) and they said they donā€™t measure by ILD, That itā€™s a 2lb high density polyfoam. Is it that itā€™s different foams measured different ways? Can you explain?

Hi Kbxy88,

Dreamfoam is correct that the durability/quality of polyfoam is best expressed by the density of the foam (mass per unit volume), and not the ILD / IFD (plushness). Density and ILD/IFD are not necessarily related in polyfoam.

As a consumer, all the information you need to know is in this article. While the specs that affect the quality and durability of the layers and components are important to know, I would consider ILD/IFD information to be a legitimate part of what many manufacturers consider to be ā€œproprietaryā€ information and it can add to the confusion for most consumers anyway. I would also keep in mind that ILD is only one of several variables or ā€œspecsā€ that will determine how soft or firm an individual layer or a mattress ā€œas a wholeā€ will feel to different people (see post #4 here). Many mattress manufacturers also are aware that people attempt to copy their designs with DIY componentry, so disclosing ILD/IFD is something they choose not to do, as eventually your own personal testing will tell you more about the appropriateness of any product for your needs than ILD specs.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix.
I just wanted to say thank you for the service you provide. I have been lurking for a while and think I have decided on a BME. My last step will be to give them a call to answer some questions.
They have what seems to be a decent sale on right now. $750 (-$50 at checkout) for queen, plus 2 pillows, plus sheets.
My question is, historically, is this a good deal? Do you how often they run these ā€œsalesā€?

First, thanks Phoenix for taking the time to reply to my perhaps too soon commentary. The bed has softened up noticeably since last week, to where I donā€™t have the pressure point pain anymore. Iā€™m still at an odd angle, but itā€™s improving. And I still have some odd neck strain but I think you are right it is on the pillows and not the mattress. Those pillows that come with the mattress are very large and may be knocking my alignment off.

Phoenix or anyone else, do you have a good resource on how to choose a proper pillow? I think that would be my next step.

Hi ryan23,

Iā€™m happy to hear that you are adjusting to your new BME mattress (and the mattress is adjusting to you)! Thatā€™s great news. :cheer:

Regarding pillows, there is a pillow thread here that you may find helpful.

Phoenix

[quote=ā€œPhoenixā€ post=73498]
And yes, youā€™re correct that ILD is measured differently in latex and polyfoam. ILD in latex is usually measured with a 6" thick layer of foam and itā€™s basically the weight that it takes to compress a 50 sq in round metal foot into the foam by 25% (which would be 1.5"). This is different from polyfoam which is measured with a layer of foam that is only 4" thick so it would only be compressed by 1" (and the ILD number would be lower than latex). So first of all latex ILD is not directly comparable to polyfoam ILD. Some latex manufacturers also produce cores that are a different thickness which would also produce a different ILD rating compared to testing ILD on a 6" core. There are also different testing protocols for ILD so in some cases the ILD would be tested at 40% compression instead of 25% compression which would also produce a different result.
Phoenix[/quote]

ugh. looks like ILD ratings donā€™t mean as much as I thought

So I spent my first night on my Dreamfoam Eurotop mattress. Because Iā€™m very used to a pillow top I was trying to get as close to that as I possibly could. The dream foam came and itā€™s 66% Urethane Foam and 34% Latex. (It doesnā€™t say Talalay but Iā€™ll assume it is?) It has 19 written on the mattress tag, which Iā€™m thinking it the ILD. I requested a level 9 on the scale of 1-10.

To the touch itā€™s very soft so I was optimistic!

After sleeping on it, not so much. It feels extremely firm. I have read that there is a false firmness and Iā€™m not positive, but I assume with Talalay as well? My concern is HOW MUCH of this false firmness could there be. I do have 1 more level of softness I could go up, but given just how firm this feels, Iā€™m not sure it will make that big of an impact.

Obviously this is only night #1, but I do have some concerns and Iā€™m going to continue my research process with hopes that thing works itself out during the trial period.

Hi AJohnson,

ILD numbers are quite useful, but it depends upon the material being considered as to that level of importance. Sometimes it is simply a comfort designation but not an indicator of quality (like in polyfoam), and in other circumstances it is a reliable way to compare the softness of certain materials to each other (in Talalay latex), and in other cases can be a reliable tool for comparing softness, but not as accurate as density (as in Dunlop latex). So it all depends upon the context.

Phoenix

Hi Kbxy88,

Congratulations on receiving your new mattress! While your old mattress was a pillowtop, this is not a comfort designation, but Iā€™m assuming your old product was a softer product in surface comfort and this is the direction youā€™re attempting to move.

Yes, your mattress uses Talalay latex. The law tag isnā€™t required to differentiate the type of latex being used, but it is Talalay. And the 19 could very well be the ILD ā€“ that would make sense with what you described in your comfort level choice.

Yes, all materials will have some false firmness, and youā€™ll also go through the loss of your previous ā€œlearned alignmentā€, so these things will all certainly adjust. The largest initial changes will be noticed with the polyfoam in your mattress, both in the quilt and in the polyfoam support core.

Assuming the latex is indeed a 19 ILD, this would be a softer material, and combined with the plush quilt foam, would provide an initial quite soft surface comfort, into which youā€™d sink and then youā€™d feel the deeper polyfoam core. In situations with a firmer support core, especially on a new mattress using softer comfort materials, the bed can actually feel a bit firmer, as youā€™ll have a tendency to ā€œfeel throughā€ the softer upper comfort layers into the base polyfoam core. Going to an even softer 14 ILD Talalay could actually make the mattress feel even firmer, as this softer Talalay would allow you to sink in even easier as you ā€œreachedā€ the deeper firmer support core. I know, itā€™s actually counterintuitive, I know. :S

Youā€™re correct, one night is not enough time for you or the mattress to adjust. Hopefully, within the next few weeks things will soften up a bit in the polyfoam and the comfort will be closer to what you desire. The good news is that you have 120 days to make an adjustment.

Phoenix

Just before I threw out my old mattress I decided to check out what was inside of this pillow top Iā€™d come to love and it was egg crate foam. When I feel the talalay itā€™s such a different feel, but I like it so much better, so Itā€™s hard to believe it feels firmer than the egg crate foam. Thatā€™s where the base layer you suggested might be coming into play.

I did read on the forum you had mentioned that a mattress cover might also firm up a mattress so the first thing I did when I got home was rid that. I noticed it was cooler and did give back a tad of the comfort, nothing extravagant.

I look forward to the trial period to see how the mattress breaks in and then iā€™ll take it from there. Iā€™ll be sure to update in the process. I appreciate the help and knowledge!

Hi Kbxy88,

There are different ā€œspeciesā€ of softness (for lack of a better description). Post #4 here talks a little more about this. Different people will be more or less sensitive to either the ā€œfeelā€ of softness, the pressure relief softness, the support softness, or the ā€œoverallā€ softness of a mattress. But this may be getting a bit too far down the rabbit hole. :wink:

Phoenix

Just to chime in on the free shredded foam BME pillows, they do come quite stuffed and have an inner zipper layer you can unzip to take out some of the stuffing. I took out about 3 handfuls of stuffing at a time and tested the pillow each night until it felt like I had gone too far and put a couple back in - itā€™s a nice option to be able to ā€œadjustā€ these!

Hi skysongz,

Thanks for your tips on pillow adjustments with your BME pillow!

Phoenix

Hey Phoenix,

Following up on what you had written to me, I was wondering in a situation like this, what would be the proper adjustments if the firmness Iā€™m feeling is through to the polyfoam.

The mattress has softened up, BUT I canā€™t say iā€™m fully satisfied quite yet, but I also donā€™t hate it. I had a lower back ache the first 2 nights, but nothing since. Just sort of wanting to research a bit out of curiosity.

One thing that Iā€™ve noticed and is a concern for me; Iā€™ve noticed on the mattress cover a small ā€œbubbleā€ appearing. Itā€™s nothing big, but iā€™m not exactly sure this is ā€œnormalā€

Hi Kbxy88,

My first suggestion would be to keep with your current configuration and see if you continue to adjust to it, as it has been a short time still with this new mattress. My concern would be that if you went with the 14 ILD the bed actually would feel hard, for the reasons I mentioned previously. It may be that you end up choosing a slightly firmer (yet still plush) upper layer from the 19 ILD, but I wouldnā€™t rush to that choice, and if you do end up making a change I would consult with the people at Dreamfoam before making any decision.

Regarding the quilt panel, it is normal for some small wrinkles in a loose top quilt in a component-style system, so I wouldnā€™t have a concern with the photo you provided.

Phoenix

So ā€¦ I just want to say that ā€¦It has come to my conclusion that Brooklyn bedding is now running false advertising with the ā€œBest Mattress Everā€ slogon after a change in material.

It is my Opinion that a change in material would also require a change in the slogan to.
THE SECOND BEST MATTRESS EVER.

To earn the Title of The Best Mattress Everā€¦ one would think thatā€¦ As a company, Changing the material would spin off a new product lineā€¦ and that the old style that someone bought recently or 10 years ago would still be able to be boughtā€¦ because of the claim of Best Mattress Everā€¦ the New Brooklyn Bedding mattress is clearly notā€¦based on being able to sleep on both old and new style mattresses on a regular basis.

Company donā€™t change material because the customers requested a different feel of the new TitanFlex foamā€¦ it was changed because of the cost to manufacture. Letā€™s be realā€¦ Brooklyn bedding isnā€™t in business to make TitanFlex foam mattresses , Brooklyn Bedding is in the mattress business to make moneyā€¦ plain and simple!

What the whole issue isā€¦ We can not get a matching mattress from Brooklyn beddingā€¦without jumping through hoopsā€¦ bottom line.

BG4,

Iā€™ve deleted your nonsensical post. I explained in my earlier reply to you about the reasons why brands change designs, and also addressed your lack of knowledge and incorrectness about the mattress design claims you made. You seem to think you are entitled to require a manufacturer to produce a product to your preferred specification in perpetuity, or at least until it serves you personally. There are plenty of other sites where youā€™ll be free to post illogical and continue with unsubstantiated claims, but further trolling and posts along the lines of your last one will result in the suspension of your account for violation of the forum rules.

Phoenix

Well that was the most ridiculous post ever. Does he not realize the ā€œThe Best Mattress Everā€ us just a clever marketing name? There can be no imperical evidence that it actually is the best mattress ever because thatā€™s a completely subjective claim to start with.
Anyhow, after extensive research, primarily on this forum, I ordered The Best Matress ever in soft. Itā€™s being delivered Friday and Iā€™m looking forward to trying it out.

Yeah. Sometimes Iā€™ve liked Appleā€™s older model better than their newer one. Thatā€™s life.