My Original thread has become quite convoluted, so I’m making another one to help narrow my goals and perhaps get some opinions. If that is not ok, delete!
California King DIY, layer options listed:
A) 6" Dunlop Core Layer (medfirm) (35-40ILD)
B ) 3" Sleep on Latex Comfort layer (soft)(20-40ILD)
C) 2" Linenspa memory foam comfort layer (extraextrasoft)(unknown ILD)
We have tried many different set ups (bottom to top)…
A, B, C - top layer feel completely unsupportive but has a ‘soft feel’. Backpain resides mostly in the upper back.
A, B - feels the best in terms of support, but fails massively in terms of comfort, body feels bruised and used in the morning. Wife likes this best but she only sleeps on her back. Gymnastic floor vibes.
A, C, B - maintained the setup for the most time, still doesn’t feel great, it’s almost like the part we want to support us just caves in, it does feel much softer than without C, allowing me to sleep on my side without ‘bruising’, I do experience lower back pain with this setup though.
We have not tried A, C, but I just feel like this memory foam is so shitty and finally have the budget to move on from it.
Proceeding:
eyeing up a 1" talalay topper, ILD guesstimate in the low 10’s, still getting this number. I feel with this I can go A, B, D and get a nice bit of softness on top while also having the support of the B layer and the firmness of our A layer.
Worries:
I dont want to spend another $300 on another latex layer that won’t work. I’m worried the C layer is the same as the future D layer but they are completely different foams. I’m also worried 1" isn’t enough, but I figured that we can add some sort of down cover or something to supplement the softness if it isn’t soft enough. I can’t afford another $600 in latex.
Closing:
Unless you are Canadian and require a calking, I suggest buying from SleepEZ or Arizona mattress, I feel like I wouldn’t be living this nightmare had I been south of the border. We have not had a comfortable night sleep in 9 months now and I sleep on the couch when I’m feeling extra destroyed by my $1500 mattress. I regret not getting the swiss dream bed, or something premade. This has been a time consuming nightmare and I feel so far from my goal.
I’m so sorry to hear of your DisasterIY! I apologize for the delay in the reply. I was standing by to see if one of our DIY gurus would take a stab at your dilemma, but I also don’t want to leave you without any sort of answer so I’m chiming in and still hoping that DIYers will chime in
Because the pain you’re describing is in your upper back, I’m going to offer some things to consider (from the ever wise Mattress To Go) that you may (or may not) feel is helpful. But, it’s better for me to put it all out there and let you decide for yourself what may be useful to you!
[i]Two easy and inexpensive things I would tell you to consider before making layer changes:
Reevaluate your pillow. Make sure it is thick enough when you are on your side to maintain a decent alignment and make sure that if you roll to your stomach that you are not using that thick pillow.
Change the way you sleep on your side. Try placing a large pillow behind your shoulders/upper thoracic area to allow you to slightly lean back against it when you are on your side. This takes some of the stress off of the shoulder joint against the mattress and also allows for some support for the shoulder not against the mattress. Additionally, try “hugging” a pillow in front of you when sleeping on your side. This can help to take some of the stress off of the shoulder that is against the mattress, and also helps to support the shoulder that is not against the mattress. You didn’t mention how you position your arm that is against the mattress. If you find “hugging” the pillow top be uncomfortable, I would still tell you to place a pillow in front of you and use it for a ledge upon which you may place your free arm that is not against the mattress. This will allow for extra support and take some of the stress off of this area and the upper thoracic region.[/i]
It sounds like you’re finding this build too firm as a side sleeper. I think you may be onto something with the addition of 1" of soft talalay latex. You have a larger profile and sleep on your side so you need to be able to sink (but not collapse, which the memory foam sounds like it may be doing).
Unfortunately, I don’t think that 2" memory foam is sturdy enough to handle this configuration, which is why you are feeling inconsistencies in terms of support and also potentially the lower back pain.
If 1" is almost enough, you can always buy another 1" layer. Or, purchase through someone who has a sturdy layer exchange policy who would allow you to exchange for a 2" layer and pay the difference during the trial/testing period.
I am so sorry! You are not the first Canadian to express this sort of DIY frustration.
I’m also wondering about your B layer. You mention it is soft, but then the range is very wide (20 - 40). Do you happen to know the specific ILD of that layer?
In waiting I ordered the super soft (15ild) talalay topper. We are struggling quite a bit to both sleep happily so I had to make a move.
The reason 20-40 was stated was a misunderstanding reading about my topper. Sleeponlatex lists the following for the 3" topper I have
20 ILD (25%) / 46 ILD (40%)
Hope that helps. I think it just isn’t enough though and I’m really hoping the 1" adds that extra ‘cush’ I’m needing as my wife floats on top of the most part.
If it doesnt. I am also looking at a 2" hemp topper, but again the worry becomes 3" soft + 1" super soft + 2" hemp creates a very large comfort layer that will likely be too much.
Our sleeping setup last night was A → B → D (Bottom to Top)
I was so happy laying on it, it felt slightly on the firm side while I lay on my side, but noticeably softer than just the A → B setup and I no longer felt forced to sleep on my back or wake up sore. I actually thought ‘we’re finally here!’
But then I woke up at 4am miserable, my back was aching terribly center of mass and I had a hard time getting back to sleep (I proceeded to wake up due to pain 3 more times during the night)
How can this be? Is it just my body getting accustomed to Latex? or is that it? Am I ruined? Do I need more softness? (but it feels so nice to lay on)
Looking at your post the last thing I have left is the pillow, but my pillow is fairly new, Down, and is easily ‘customizable’ (I can make it very small or very thicc)
I took some pictures, if you look real close you can see a circle on my back where the majority of the pain can be found, I took pictures with my standard sleep posture (regular pillow), an extremely high pillow (never do this just wanted to see how it affected my back), and no pillow (rarely do this). Anything pop out at anyone?
Sorry you’re continuing to have discomfort with your mattress setup. Wanted to mention that I’m only seeing one picture attached. Since NikkiTMU has been working with you I’d expect that she’ll respond shortly, but having the additional pics might help. It appears to me from the single pic that you’re hammocking so that you’re back is unnaturally arched which is likely the cause of your back pain. The problem could be that the combo of 3" of soft Dunlop latex along with 1" super soft Talalay latex is too soft/thick of a comfort cradle which is lacking in sufficient support for your midsection which is where we carry most of our weight. There’s often a delicate balance between having enough of a comfort layer to avoid pressure point pain while still having enough support to maintain proper spinal alignment. I’m not sure what combination to suggest you try next, hopefully NikkiTMU will have some helpful input for you.
Sorry you’re continuing to have discomfort with your mattress setup. Wanted to mention that I’m only seeing one picture attached. Since NikkiTMU has been working with you I’d expect that she’ll respond shortly, but having the additional pics might help. It appears to me from the single pic that you’re hammocking so that you’re back is unnaturally arched which is likely the cause of your back pain. The problem could be that the combo of 3" of soft Dunlop latex along with 1" super soft Talalay latex is too soft/thick of a comfort cradle which is lacking in sufficient support for your midsection which is where we carry most of our weight. There’s often a delicate balance between having enough of a comfort layer to avoid pressure point pain while still having enough support to maintain proper spinal alignment. I’m not sure what combination to suggest you try next, hopefully NikkiTMU will have some helpful input for you.
Regards,
Bill
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply, I’m seeing only 1 picture as well, I will try to reupload them in this post.
So you’re saying even though my mattress feels too firm, that it is likely too soft? That would be almost the end for me, I can’t forsee myself spending 6 more months destroying myself while working up a budget for an entire new setup that may or may not work.
I regret cancelling my original Serta purchase to be completely honest with all of you.
One of the images I can’t upload, but it is with a super high pillow which I never do anyways.
Let’s see what NikkiTMU says after seeing your pics since she’s been involved from the start, or another TMU administrator who will likely be more experienced than I am at diagnosing your situation. Hang in there… hopefully a solution will not be as involved as you fear.
Sorry to butt in, if I’m out of line please let me know. I don’t want to step on anyones toes or misguide you at all to make matters worse. I’ve just been reading about your story on here and felt bad for what you’ve been going through for the past 9 months. I’d say you’ve been suffering long enough. I’m hoping you’re able to find a solution to your mattress problems here pretty soon so you can start sleeping a lot better.
I’m by far no expert on latex mattresses by any means. I only started researching them heavily for the past month or so and finally built my first latex mattress last week in fact, largely thanks to the incredible resources and knowledge people have so kindly shared on here over the years. NikkiTMU, Sweet Dreams, and most everyone else on here are going to be way more knowledgeable than I am about these things. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
To me what stands out the most is that there is a huge gap in between your firm dunlop core which has a ILD of up to about 40 and your comfort layers. Your SOL comfort layer is a soft firmness layer with around 20 ILD and the other comfort layers are even softer than that. It just seems to me like you should have some kind of transition layer in between the two, so that the transition between them in terms of firmness/softness aren’t so dramatic. Which maybe then would give you much better support that way without being too firm and also better pressure relief and comfort as well. You may not want to hear or even consider this but I’m gonna throw it out there, perhaps adding a 2-3" medium firmness transition layer (around 28 ILD) would help in your situation. Preferably talalay latex since you sleep on your side a lot. I’d be curious to see what NikkiTMU or someone else thought about this.
I appreciate anyone’s suggestions at this point. I had thought about that previously, but in sleeping with the memory foam on top of the 20ILD layer I experience the best sleep, which leads me to believe I simply needed a little more ‘cush’ on top. Looking back on it, I should have returned the sleep on latex topper when I had the chance but unfortunately I’m well clear of their 100 day policy, let alone the 30 day policy of their toppers. Again in looking back I think Dunlop latex is terrible for me but am confident my core layer will last many years (depending how much I sleep on the couch).
I guess I could try and contact sleep on latex to see if they could help at all, but I’m kind of stuck with what I have at this point and with 0 budget to explore more options I’m not thrilled. The only thing I thought to try last night was flip the 3" topper with the 1" topper so that the softer is underneath (but I don’t suspect that would help).
Is it likely that the 3" layer is the problem? Should I attempt to contact SoL and replace it? (Again i doubt they would honor this even though their customer service is fantastic).
I’ll also wait for Nikki, won’t make any moves because I can’t afford to and will just sleep terribly until I have a plan :silly:
Should I try removing the 3" layer and just have the 1" on the 6"? I could maybe swing another 1" layer in a couple months and skip my wife’s Christmas present :silly:
Can I petition the forum for an edit button? I hate double posting.
I have been laying in my bed for the last 2 hours simply trying to figure it out on my own and using the Mattress guidelines on this site. I think you all may be right in that my comfort layer is now too thick, and the reason it never felt good is because of the density of the dunlop topper. I can visually see myself not hitting the core layer at the bottom when laying, and even if I kneel on the bed I struggle to feel that firmness that lurks 4 inches below me.
I’m wondering if there is a low cost solution somewhere in having an inch cut off the 3" dunlop layer, having more layers is always a good thing right?
I think the main problem here is that my comfort layer was never comfortable, and I’m trying to fix it by loading on more comfort and more comfort which is destroying the firm integrity that my bones need, but definitely helping solve my ‘bruised’ feeling.
To reiterate, I think the 3" layer is the problem, and always has been the problem, and because the memory foam had no rigidity like this new 1" layer has, I am no longer sinking far enough to hit that firm core.
I’m very curious what Nikki thinks, but I have at least spent more time on the bed and mentally trying to figure out a fix.
I’m going to let this post fester for a few days and sleep on the couch tonight before tackling another night on my bed.
It really is a tricky situation that you’re in. Have you tried taking the 3" dunlop layer out of the equation and just tried using the 2" memory foam and 1" talalay topper together on top of the core? Might be worth trying if you haven’t done so already. Other than that I honestly don’t know what to tell you.
That’s what it sounds like to me too. I think if your 3" dunlop layer was talalay instead you would of been much happier with the comfort being a side sleeper. Although I could be wrong (I’m not an expert on this). I just know that talalay contours to your body a lot better. I tested both talalay and dunlop at a savvy rest store before I ordered anything trying to get an idea for how dunlop felt as a comfort layer since I’ve had zero experience with it except for what I’ve read online. Talalay I’ve had experience testing it before and I’ve always loved the feel of it. The dunlop to me being primarily a side sleep just felt way too rigid and firm. For people that like a firmer bed I guess it would be alright, but if you want more of a plush/soft experience without really any pressure on your side I wouldn’t recommend it. At least not as the upper most top layer.
BTW I agree with you completely about the need for a edit button on here. I don’t understand why there isn’t one.
Again I greatly appreciate everyone’s responses here, being at my whit’s end is never fun but every suggestion helps me work through the problem. This forum is a fantastic resource and hopefully I can return the support to someone else when I eventually figure it all out.
Last night my wife and I (now relayering experts, seriously we can change layers and make a bed in under 5 minutes) switched out the 3 inch layer completely, we slept on the 1" on top of the 6". To my surprise my back looked quite straight from the side, and I woke up feeling ok, which is better than bad! It feels firm, definitely. But it doesn’t hurt as bad as any other combination we have tried to date. I was surprised for sure that such a small piece can make such a difference. I’m considering getting another 1" talalay, that is slightly firmer than the one I already have in the future, so I would end up with 6" dunlop med, 1" tal soft, 1" tal super soft. But that is a future consideration. I had a somewhat ok sleep last night.
I also opened a channel of communication with Sleep on Latex, I will say they have the best customer service I have ever dealt with in history. They offered a full refund on the 3" topper which would greatly support my ability to go find another 1" (it would mean $450). By the way this 3" piece of latex was a full $400 cheaper than the closest competitor in Canada. Even though I’m now thinking the 3" is the problem I want to give a huge shout out to Sleep on Latex. Just because it may not work for me they are a great, honest, company. I will be trying it a couple more times to make SURE it is the right decision to get rid of this piece of latex as it again, is a fantastic deal.
In my quest to find the best prices possible I came across ‘BFF Foam’ in Canada (BC) and gave them a call, they said they do not like selling direct to customers and prefer I use their retail channels (which sucks tbh) but I sourced it through ‘WR mattress gallery’ in New Westminster, the people there were helpful and nice but I would still prefer to source the topper directly as $300/inch seems expensive to me (even though it is the cheapest local price I could find)
Again thank you everyone and I’d still love to hear more ideas.
Oh that’s good to hear that your making some progress. I’m glad that your wifes on board with all of this and is actually helping you and NOT strangeling you. That sounds like a really good plan with what you’ve laid out for the future. I think if you added another 1" layer of soft talalay (not super soft) it would definetly be a lot more comfortable for you sleeping on your side. I think you need at least 2" to make much of a difference in the comfort layers and 3" for a significant change. If you can swing it you might even think about getting a 2" talalay layer if it’s not too expensive, so you’d have a total of 3".
Wow! I’m shocked. I can’t believe that they would be willing to still give you a full refund after all of this time. Good thing you decided to contact them. That’s wonderful should you decide that the dunlop comfort layer you have isn’t doing you any good and you’d rather go a different route instead. It’s just a shame that they only sell dunlop and not talalay or else you could of just got an exchange through them. I can’t believe how expensive latex prices are there in Canada. $300 for an inch is ridiculous! Is that with or without a cover? I’m in Michigan (Metro Detroit area) only about an hour away from the border with you and it’s around $300-350 for a 3" layer of talalay shipped (depending on if it’s blended or natural) which is like $380-440 CAD. Even cheaper for dunlop.
Thanks PK, yes I also appreciate my wife hahaha, she indeed cares about me! Also good news.
I think future layers will be 1" at a time as the price doesn’t change for more (1" 300, 2" 600, 3" 900)
I do wish sleeponlatex had talalay as well as moving forward I would love to purchase from them again, I feel bad about the situation but I’m also not rich and looking to stay on a budget.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Latex prices in Canada are absolutely insane (if the border was an easy crossing right now I would just order to a mailbox). $300 an inch is cheap here. I contacted one supplier in Surrey (Canada)(BC) that wanted $980 for a 2" topper. That does not include taxes or a cover, in fact none of the prices I am quoting include a cover.
Sleeponlatex’s covers are about $50 per, which is a way I can support them I guess.
I’m going to keep trying to order factory direct but it truly is tough. I’m also going to reach out to more suppliers in the coming days as I sleep on my firm ass mattress.
Just thought I’d update this thread for anyone that comes here from Google.
Do not build your own mattress, especially if you live in Canada. Nothing has worked for us, after countless hours and thousands of dollars we are both miserable and sleeping poorly every night.
The best setup we have is 6" of dunlop, 1" of extra soft talalay, we sleep bad, we wake up like we were in a fight many days of the week. Lower back pain with anything more than 1", general soreness with 1".
I regret so much the following:
A) not just ordering the original sleep country bed, I would likely be sleeping great up until 5 years from now.
B) not ponying up the cash for the Swiss Dream Bed, the long and short of it is that this bed would have cost a bit more up front, but we would likely be sleeping and not constantly dropping money on more and more attempts to fix our sleep. We are reaching the costs of this bed now.
Unfortunately we can’t put more money in to this problem so we will be sleeping like shit for 3-4years until we can save enough to buy a new bed. What a %%&$&$ing nightmare. Sitting on my couch now at 1:30am because I can’t sleep.
Hopefully this helps someone down the line, this whole experience has taken years off my life I’m sure.
Sorry to hear you’re having such a rough go with your build, a lack of sleep is brutal (espcially when you wake up in pain on top of it). I definitely agree designing your own mattress requires alot of engineering, problem solving and patience. Depending on what you need and how fast you find a solution it can be somewhat costly as well. I also agree that due to the ridiculous restrictions we’ve been dealing with for the last 2 years in Canada has made it a massive pain to get DIY mattress building materials (or anything really) across the border from the US although I have been able to find work arounds myself (YMMV).
Funny you mention Sleep Country because my DIY journey actually started with a horrible Beautyrest mattress from Sleep Country that killed my back shortly after the exchange period was up. I will never purchase another mattress from any store that doesn’t allow full refunds, that crazy exchange policy is the scam of the century IMHO. Also gone are the days when you could just go to the store and buy a good mattress for $500 and be done with it so if you really want something that works often it requires spending some money to get there (good materials aren’t cheap, even more so today).
I know from your original post you both have lower BMI’s (around 20) but you didn’t mention either you or your wife’s build. Are either of you curvy or bony? I ask because this usually lends itself more towards talalay and you’ve been buying lots of dunlop from what I’ve read. Even the SOL layers are still dunlop (they felt soft initially but still lacked the travel I needed to really be comfortable). I know it’s hard at this point to think about how to make your situation work but forget about the mistakes you already made or advice that didn’t work out (we’ve all been there). As the border with the US opens again I would suggest thinking about creating the bed one layer at a time as you can afford it. You’re in Vancouver so just use www.kinek.com to find a mailbox on the US side you can ship the items to so you can pick them up.
Here’s what I’d suggest for you:
2-3" talalay (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" talalay (28 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (32 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (36 ILD) - Support layer
Here’s what I’d suggest for your wife:
2-3" talalay (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" talalay (22 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (28 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (32 ILD) - Support layer
Start with the first 2 layers then add more as you can afford them or until the mattress feels good to you. At that point you can buy a cover and be done wtih it (use a mattress pad to hold the layers together in the meantime). Worst case you can always add zoning later to really tailor each side but don’t cross that bridge unless you really need to.
While I appreciate the message I can’t continue spending money on guesswork and won’t ever do it again. There is no way to even get back any of the money already invested. People don’t buy used mattress parts on craigslist.
“Here’s what I’d suggest for you:
2-3” talalay (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" talalay (28 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (32 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (36 ILD) - Support layer
Here’s what I’d suggest for your wife:
2-3" talalay (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" talalay (22 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (28 ILD) - Support layer
3" talalay (32 ILD) - Support layer"
Which translated to:
$800
$1000
$1000
$1000
Not including taxes or shipping. That is $3800 which is more expensive than some of the better beds I’ve seen. This also does not include our original purchases of $1200, $300, $300, $450 (refunded), $120 $120.
With an original budget of $2000, it would put us at $2490+$3800 = $6290 which simply is not going to happen for something we fingers crossed would be happy with.
I think the question really comes down to what’s a pain-free good night’s sleep really worth. The answer is obviously that varies depending on who you ask. I too wasted plenty of money hoping to use some of the original beautyrest mattress I paid $2500 for but finally came to the unhappy conclusion the whole thing was junk and out it went (painless sleep was my priority). Of course I wish I knew that beforehand but you can’t take a mulligan on every life decision (experience is earned). Building a good quality DIY mattress is a design process and it’s different for everyone (BMIs, body shapes, sleeping preferences, materials, budgets, etc) but if you’re considering it guesswork (vs engineering) then it probably means it’s not for you. There’s no shame at all in saying I’ve had enough for whatever reason and I’m going a different route. Ultimately I think most individuals on TMU are on here to try to help each other be successful but what that means can vary considerably.
Unfortunately I can’t just keep spending money, even as an engineering problem for an analytical mind it still costs money, and a lot of it.
I’ve opened a channel of communication with a Swiss Bed rep, maybe we can work something out in the long run using foam I already have.
I also should be clear on what happened. We ended up ordering a 1" soft talalay to put under our 1" super soft talalay, which would both be on top of our 6" dunlop core. While it feels great to fall asleep it I ended up waking up 7 nights in a row with excruciating lower back pain. The only successful system we have tried is 6" dunlop, 1" super soft. But my wife gets upper back pain from this because she is much lighter than me I imagine. Again we are 175 & 125lbs, with low BMI, and boney to medium structure.
Tonight we are giving it one last hoorah because we’re crazy bed people at this point.
Tonight we sleep on plywood, with 3" dunlop soft, 1" talalay soft, 1" talalay super soft.
