i’ve been on this journey for a while now, and i’ll keep this short
top to bottom, t - talalay (blended from APM), d - dunlop (SOL)
*28t/34d/36t - back is very happy, shoulders are not, finding myself tossing throughout the evening
*24t/34d/36t - shoulders very happy, back not happy
[strike]24t/36t/34d - shoulders very happy, back not happy (NO)
28t/36t/34d - back isnt as happy, shoulders medium happy (NO)[/strike]
(28t configuration) do i add a topper, 2" 22t?
or
(24t configuration) do i exchange the 36t (still within the window) and move up to like a 44t to improve the support
i’m wanting 2 to be the right answer as i have a 9" encasement that i’d like to stay in, just looking for validation that it will help
When you say back not happy can you explain further? Is this an alignment issue? Are you side or back sleeping? Same thing with the shoulders, is this alignment or pressure related?
If you’re on a 28T comfort layer and you don’t have any pressure issues except in the shoulder area then the likely solution would be to just add some simple zoning of the 2nd layer to allow more room for shoulder travel. I say this as a possibility but it would be good to ensure we all understand exactly what the issue is before jumping to a solution.
back not happy as in waking up with lower back pain, have degenerative disk disease. i start off on my side, but i think i end up on my back sometimes throughout the night. so it’s an alignment issue, my butt sinks in too far as i’m heaviest in the butt/leg area being a volleyball player. so my butt is down, upper body is up
when i’m on my 28t, i get numbness in my arms which then causes me to turn to the other side, and my shoulders can be stiff in the morning
ideally i’d like to avoid the zoning, its very close
its either the topper and leave the 28t on top, or address the likely issue which is the support. changing out the 36t for 44t or some form of xfirm dunlop
Ok good so clearly you need the support and if your back is happy on a stiffer surface I would be looking to modify your first option (*28t/34d/36t - back is very happy, shoulders are not, finding myself tossing throughout the evening) such that it also works for your shoulders.
That’s makes perfect sense, 28T for shoulders is very stiff for most people.
Any reason for this other than just simplicity? I’m not saying you need an expensive V-zone setup but to throw out any idea of zoning entirely (even simple soning) you may be seriously limiting your options for a solution.
I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish here. If you have hammocking issues and you add a softer topper it will help with the shoulders and hurt the lower back again. Adding more stiffness to the lower layers if the firmness is already good will not do much for your back but will definitely hurt the shoulders more. This why I would still suggest (assuming your back alignment feels good on the first option) using a piece of 22T to zone the 2nd layer down in just the shoudler/head area. This will keep your back aligned while also allowing your shoudlers to travel into the bed to relieve pressure there. If you start to feel any pressure points on the hips/back I would maybe add another 2" of 22T on top of everything but I’d do the shoulder/head zoning first to see if that doesn’t solve your issue completely.
i had a zoned mattress and it didnt work for me, also adds another layer of complexity of tweaking. i was able to sleep on a memory foam mattress for 12ish years without these issues (2 mattresses in that time span) and am frustrated with latex at this point, but too stubborn to not get it right. i’m so close, just need to lock in the final adjustment
the 28t configuration doesnt have hammocking issues, just the stiffness. so do i address that issue with a 2" topper, or…
the 24t configuration has hammocking but is super comfortable. so can i address that issue by replacing the 36t layer while i’m in my window to, and get a firmer layer, say like a 44t. this could keep the comfort, and address the hammocking
so i have two options: (1) topper to the 28t configuration (2) replace support with something firmer in the 24t configuration
What was the outcome of 24/36/34 vs the 24/34/36? Still too soft? Alignment problem?
Since you already have it, throw the 24t on top of the 28/34/36 to test the topper idea. There is not going to be a huge difference 22t and 24t or 2" vs 3". Given your previous results, I bet this is too soft. If you are after a really minor tweak, maybe 1" layer from SOL could help. Maybe…
Swapping in a 40+ layer into the 24/34/36 setup will firm things up but there is no way to tell if it will be firm enough for you. The benefit to going this route is you can also try 28/34/36/40+ ,with the 28 as a topper. The 4th layer will give you more travel.for your shoulder, even more so when the 28 is used as a topper.
I have a slightly lower BMI and I am currently testing 24/32/36/36 and 24/32/36/40. I have not settled on one yet but it’s a final step in the right direction. I could not get any 3 layer configurations to work for me and the 4 layer setups I previously tested were not firm enough, as I made the mistake of increasing the thickness of the comfort/intermediate layers instead of adding another support layer.
yeah, it was perfect comfort, but my back was still a little sore in the morning, too much travel in the lower layers i suspect
[quote=“lantern71 post=92251”]Since you already have it, throw the 24t on top of the 28/34/36 to test the topper idea. There is not going to be a huge difference 22t and 24t or 2" vs 3". Given your previous results, I bet this is too soft. If you are after a really minor tweak, maybe 1" layer from SOL could help. Maybe…
Swapping in a 40+ layer into the 24/34/36 setup will firm things up but there is no way to tell if it will be firm enough for you. The benefit to going this route is you can also try 28/34/36/40+ ,with the 28 as a topper. The 4th layer will give you more travel.for your shoulder, even more so when the 28 is used as a topper.
I have a slightly lower BMI and I am currently testing 24/32/36/36 and 24/32/36/40. I have not settled on one yet but it’s a final step in the right direction. I could not get any 3 layer configurations to work for me and the 4 layer setups I previously tested were not firm enough, as I made the mistake of increasing the thickness of the comfort/intermediate layers instead of adding another support layer.[/quote]
i’m going to likely break down in that direction at this point and go for 4 layer configurations, waiting to hear back from Ken at APM to see what the firmest he can do in dunlop. swap out the 36t for the firmest he can get there for the base layer. without any purchasing, i’d at least then be able to test out a 24t/28t/36d/40-44d and see how that goes or see if the 24t/36d/40-44d did enough to get the balance of support and comfort i need
if 24/36/34 had too much travel but your back was happy on 28/34/36, maybe the 24t layer is too soft for you. I would also hazard a guess that 24/28/36/40 will not work. Making the base firmer is unlikely make up for for the softer combination of 24t/28t.
Not sure this is helpful but I struck out on my latest round of testing. 24/32/36/36 (all 3" layers) did not support my hips enough relative to my upper body resulting in a downward pelvic tilt and I know this causes lumbar pain after several hours. 24/32/36/40 did not provide the proper alignment but was firmer. Also tried 24/36/40 and I needed to sink in just a tiny more for proper alignment. For reference I am 6’1 185lbs and 24/32/36 is borderline for me. Comfortable in feel but could be a hair firmer. 28/32/36 is way too firm for me.
Only thing left for me to try is 2" 24 / 2" 28 / 3"32 / 3"36 or 2" 24 / 2" 28 / 3"36 / 3"36 where the comfort layers are not too thick but might be able to provide proper pressure relief. After that I give up.
[quote=“lantern71 post=92292”]
Not sure this is helpful but I struck out on my latest round of testing. 24/32/36/36 (all 3" layers) did not support my hips enough relative to my upper body resulting in a downward pelvic tilt and I know this causes lumbar pain after several hours. 24/32/36/40 did not provide the proper alignment but was firmer. Also tried 24/36/40 and I needed to sink in just a tiny more for proper alignment. For reference I am 6’1 185lbs and 24/32/36 is borderline for me. Comfortable in feel but could be a hair firmer. 28/32/36 is way too firm for me.
Only thing left for me to try is 2" 24 / 2" 28 / 3"32 / 3"36 or 2" 24 / 2" 28 / 3"36 / 3"36 where the comfort layers are not too thick but might be able to provide proper pressure relief. After that I give up.[/quote]
I can totally sympathize with your frustration as it seems some of us (myself included) have a very narrow window of position/alignment to find things comfortable while sleeping. I might feel I got things perfect one night and wake up feeling great then the next night or two I can feel the issue coming back (not sure if things are settling or something else at play, still working on narrowing it down). I will say I’m not sure I would be anywhere even close without the zoning I added to the mattress which allows me to make adjustments in specific areas without affecting the rest of the bed.
I can totally sympathize with your frustration as it seems some of us (myself included) have a very narrow window of position/alignment to find things comfortable while sleeping. I might feel I got things perfect one night and wake up feeling great then the next night or two I can feel the issue coming back (not sure if things are settling or something else at play, still working on narrowing it down). I will say I’m not sure I would be anywhere even close without the zoning I added to the mattress which allows me to make adjustments in specific areas without affecting the rest of the bed.[/quote
I’ve started to play with zoning. We"lol see what happens.
Two questions for you mattrebuild:
Do you have any suggestions for latex whose firmness/support falls between a 24 and 28ild talalay? In theory would a 24 Dunlop do anything? I am aware of the difference in response curves on paper but not sure how that plays out in practice.
what are your thoughts on 6" cores vs two 3" layers response curves? Most comments I see say the difference is minimal but I know ken at APM thinks otherwise.
I can totally sympathize with your frustration as it seems some of us (myself included) have a very narrow window of position/alignment to find things comfortable while sleeping. I might feel I got things perfect one night and wake up feeling great then the next night or two I can feel the issue coming back (not sure if things are settling or something else at play, still working on narrowing it down). I will say I’m not sure I would be anywhere even close without the zoning I added to the mattress which allows me to make adjustments in specific areas without affecting the rest of the bed.[/quote]
I’ve started to play with zoning. We"lol see what happens.
Two questions for you mattrebuild:
Do you have any suggestions for latex whose firmness/support falls between a 24 and 28ild talalay? In theory would a 24 Dunlop do anything? I am aware of the difference in response curves on paper but not sure how that plays out in practice.
what are your thoughts on 6" cores vs two 3" layers response curves? Most comments I see say the difference is minimal but I know ken at APM thinks otherwise.
[quote=“lantern71 post=92300”]I’ve started to play with zoning. We"lol see what happens.
Two questions for you mattrebuild:
Do you have any suggestions for latex whose firmness/support falls between a 24 and 28ild talalay? In theory would a 24 Dunlop do anything? I am aware of the difference in response curves on paper but not sure how that plays out in practice.
what are your thoughts on 6" cores vs two 3" layers response curves? Most comments I see say the difference is minimal but I know ken at APM thinks otherwise.[/quote]
It depends on what you’re doing with it but if it’s going to be a top layer I would stick to talalay (esp if you need more travel to help with pelvic rotation). If you really wanted to find some you’d have to have someone look at the testing on the side of the layer (either a soft 28T or a firm 24T) but no idea how common that would be to find. The other option would be to go down to three 2" layers (24/24/28 or 24/28/28) in an effort to dial things in. Personally the second option is where I would switch to zoning given the expense involved.
The thicker 6" core would provide a bit more support than just two 3" layers (due to tension in the material) but personally the issue of dealing with cores that large/heavy and the difficulty of making changes would not be enough benefit for me to go that route. It might be good if you were able to try it in a store and found it a good match for you but if you were just experimenting with DIY I would probably chose the thinner 3" layers to give you more options to get it dialed in.
I’m actually looking for less travel. I am well aware of the response curves. I guess I am just wondering how different a 24ild Dunlop is from Talalay in practice? I have only compared firmer ilds and the differences were not huge for me.
Side note, while the sample size is less than 10, every TG layer I have played with has been on the low end of the specified range according to the affixed label.
Dunlop definitely stiffens up faster than talalay which is why it’s great for support. If you look at the graph below (even though I don’t have exactly identical ILDs) you can see for instance the 22T and 20D being compared (with the 20D being considered technically “softer”). You can see with lighter pressures the 20 ILD dunlop (yellow line) deflects more quickly initially but as you push harder on them both the 22ILD talalay (blue line) takes the lead in deflection (at around 20 lbs in the test or 0.4psi) and that continues through the rest of the curve. The difference in deflection isn’t huge (maybe 10-15%) but it’s certainly not negligible either. If you are looking for less travel then dunlop could certainly be worth trying in a similar ILD to the talalay you already have.
I’ve honestly seen latex layers with test ranges on both sides of the spec but again not sure how common it would be to find ones on either side (ie does the manufacturer aim high or low typically which would then affect the probablility of finding what you wanted).
