DIY Latex Adjustment - Shoulder Blade Pain

[DelrayTaco]

Hi friends-

Looking for adjustment advice.

I’ve had a DIY latex mattress from Arizona Premium Mattress since December of '21. Ken was great to work with, even with how frustrating supply chain issues must have been for him back then.

The base system consists of 3" firm (34-38 ILD) natural dunlop, 3" medium (28-33 ILD) natural dunlop, 2" med natural dunlop with an organic cotton mattress cover. On top of that, I have a 2" soft (20-24 ILD) talalay layer inside a stretch bamboo cover. For reference, I’m 5ft 11in, 160lbs, broad shoulders, narrow hips, mostly a side and stomach sleeper. Pillow is a MyPillow Premium queen standard (white) but we have others available. Previous mattresses have included a ~2010 Eurotop Simmons Beautyrest from Sleepy’s (from memory, my favorite mattress), ~2013 SelectComfort (worst bed ever), ~2016 Original Mattress Factory Orthopedic Luxury Firm (good materials and build, good price, but I should have chosen the Eurotop version.)

Unfortunately, around the time the APM mattress system was delivered, an upper GI infection was getting a foothold that would absolutely wreck my sleep for approximately 15 months until it was properly diagnosed and treated in late February by a brilliant CFMP.

Half-way through treatment, Fitbit sleep scores were in the low-80s to low-90s from mid-March through mid-April. Over the last couple of weeks, for whatever reason, possibly due to frequent air travel and hotel beds, muscle fatigue and pain have developed in the mid-back between the shoulder blades. The discomfort starts approximately 6-hours after getting into bed. If I get up and lay on the couch (polyfoam over standard horizontal couch springs) or start the day early, the muscle fatigue will subside.

Thinking the soft polyfoam+spring couch cushion was the direction I should move, I placed an order with APM for another 2" soft (20-24 ILD) natural talalay layer. Now I’m thinking that may make things worse and I sent a note to Ken asking to postpone processing the order until I have more info.

I’ve tried adjusting the layers to see if anything would help. I flipped the mattress so firm was immediately under the talalay topper. That didn’t help. Flipped again and removed the soft topper. Didn’t help. With the mattress cover removed, 3" firm dunlop, 3" medium dunlop, and 2" soft talalay topper felt like I was bottoming out. Added the 2" medium dunlop under the topper (still with the organic cotton cover removed), that helped with the bottoming out feeling but the mid/upper back fatigue persists.

Frustrated, this morning I’ve taken a cotton bath towel, folded it in half lengthwise, and laid it across the hip/pelvic region of the mattress under the 2" soft talalay topper. That gave an initial perception of helping my hips to not sink in as much which also felt better on the upper back because I wasn’t curved. Tonight will tell if this has any significant improvement but my gut is the center region needs additional support. This is why I asked Ken to postpone my order - I may want to see if adding a small
zone of firm talalay under the hips will make the difference.

Also happy to provide reference pictures to get feedback on support/alignment.

A quick search found these relevant threads
Help w/mattress causing Upper Back Pain below shoulder blades - the location of steve’s muscle pain is similar to mine. mid/upper back between shoulder blades.
Futons? Looking at Otis - #2 by phoenix - phoenix mentioned causes of mid/upper back pain, which resulted in the email to Ken to hold off on shipping my order. This also reminded me - I’ve never experienced this pain/soreness with any other mattress, or even this mattress until recently, however I do experience this muscle discomfort on flights because the terrible airline seats cause my upper back and shoulders to roll/curve forward if I don’t have a jacket or pillow providing lumbar support.

Thanks in advance!

[DelrayTaco]

We have some progress…

1. APM responded very quickly and cancelled the order. Thanks Ken and team, great service! When my wife realizes latex is the way to go for her half of the split-king, you have our repeat business.
2. The folded towel test yielded noticeable improvement. Got a fancy graphic to illustrate the change (hopefully it works):
   
   
3. Mid/upper back muscle fatigue was significantly reduced. Slept very well with little turning, and the fatigue pain only set in about 30 minutes before getting out of bed. On a 0-10 scale, this was around a 2 or 3 whereas the previous night was a 6 or 7. Hips did not sink in as far so I was in better alignment.
4. The 2" soft Talalay topper might be too soft. My wife tried the topper one night while I was travelling for work. Initial feel was great but it was too soft for her. The mild fatigue I felt this morning seemed to be the result of not enough push-back. To that end, the layers were re-arranged to the following:
   
   
5. Tomorrow, the folded towels will be replaced with 1-inch 44 ILD polyfoam. It’s 24" wide, so it’s a bit less than 1/3 of the mattress. Would appreciate some suggestions if I should make reduce the width (width being measured from head to toe of the bed), if I should start with one piece, two pieces, etc.

-taco

[Basilio]

Hi DelreyTaco and welcome to the Mattress Underground

A belated ‘congrats’ on your @APM mattress from 2021! Ken did indeed navigate through the supply chain tumult as well as anyone could; glad you had a good experience and more importantly that you enjoyed your DIY build from them.

Certainly sorry to hear about the Upper GI issue…sounds extraordinarily difficult…but great news on the diagnosis and treatment from that CFMP; Functional Medical practices have helped a lot of people without relying on prescribed medicine. Sounds like the overall affect of dealing with that for so long, and the hotels and airplane travel all have combined to take a physical toll. Of course the first thing I would recommend would be to check in with your healthcare provider, as the pains may indicate a spinal/ alignment/ muscle issue…it may not be the bed, it may be that your bodies’ ‘sleep profile’ has changed over time.

There are inherent benefits and problems with a DIY build, and, as perceptive as a Mattress Guru like Ken is, only you can judge what is comfortable for you, based on your Stats(height, BMI, sleeping position(s) and any underlying health issues), which you astutely provided, and PPP(Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and personal preferences).

It sounds like you are possibly sinking in, as you surmised, in your hips, ‘bottoming out’ on the firmer layer below…this is where it can get both tricky and frustrating with DIY: you need to sort through the permutations of the layers you have, noting the difference in feel. I would say Personally, at this point, with the results you describe, I would be tempted to try a medium to medium firm comfort layer, with a firm latex support layer on bottom, but you don’t want to be exchanging layers only to have another not quite right comfort, or worse. Keep in mind the differences in types of latex - Talalay: bouncier, like angel food cake, where as Dunlop is more like pound cake. If possible maybe lay on each layer separately on the floor to see how your pressure points feel with each one, with and without a topper. If that’s not a reasonable endeavor, just try to switch the layers out until you get at least a ‘good/not as good/worst list of the layer combos to zero in on the exact issue. Using the towel does give you another data point.

Great to see you did some forum research on the topic as well…unfortunately, while the information can be useful, remember everyone has a specific and unique combo of Stats and PPP, and another sleeper with the same Stats, same pains, same everything, will have completely different needs and solutions for their perfect bed.

This is exactly why DIY is not for everyone! But if you can give it a little more consideration - and even reach out to Ken Hightower at APM your resulting sleep system can be well worth the effort! Hoping for a future report of your success!

~ Basilio

[Basilio]

Hi DelreyTaco,

Wow! Sorry for the delayed reply but look at that, already progress! And the graphic is perfect in illustrating the current trial layering. You sure appear to be on the right track here…keep going, this is the ‘fine tuning’ stage; be patient, be conscious of the various layer changes and how you feel. Really, well done so far!

~ Basilio

[DelrayTaco]

Thank you for the kind and encouraging words, @Basilio

Last night was also an improvement. ZERO mid/upper back fatigue. The 2" medium Dunlop layer in the stretchy bamboo cover seems to be the ideal comfort layer as it relieves all pressure points but has enough pushback for the upper back. If a little more “cush” is wanted, I could replace the cotton mattress cover with APM’s bamboo/wool cover and put everything in a 10" cover (might do that anyway and save the 8" cotton cover for my wife’s future build).

Two folded towels in the hip/pelvic zone was too much. The towel between the topper and mattress cover has been removed. The 1"x24" polyfoam should arrive today and will replace the folded towel between the 3" medium dunlop and 2" talalay. Tonight is the only chance I’ll get to test it before leaving town but confidence is high this will work. I’ll be sleeping on a different bed until early next week, then I’ll be able to give this setup a proper adjustment period.

[Basilio]

Great progress, you are getting down to the minor adjustments now. The bamboo cover,
as well as wool, also provides additional air circulation to keep you cool while you sleep.
Good luck with the foam layer, safe travels and after you get back you can finalize the last few details of your build!

~ Basilio

[DelrayTaco]

Here’s a twist…

Over the weekend my wife and I visited some out of town friends. The guest room had an older-but-seldom-used Serta iSeries Perfect Day Super Pillow Top (most recently sold as the Merit SPT.)

Friday night, I had muscle fatigue in the neck, mid back, and hips, mostly from the long flight from Palm Beach to Long Island. I expected to be worse off the next day because of the hybrid super pillow top (SPT) being too soft but, to my surprise, I felt so much better the next day. After the second night, felt great, zero muscle fatigue. After the third night, felt great again, zero muscle fatigue. Last night on the DIY latex mattress, the upper back and abdominal muscle fatigue returned.

What’s even more interesting is the improved sleep quality from the Serta SPT appears to reflect in the Fitbit sleep tracking.

Friday night (Serta iSeries Super Pillow Top):

Sunday night (Serta iSeries Super Pillow Top):

Monday night (DIY latex):

The sleep graph for the Serta mattress has a visibly lower frequency of stage changes which I’ve not seen until this weekend. Would this indicate fewer interruptions due to tossing/turning? If so, how can I replicate this Serta SPT using the existing latex layers as the base? More importantly, should I try to replicate it? The super pillow top runs completely counter to my expectations but the results were great.

After some digging, the SPT comfort layers appear to be 2-3" polyfoam with a thin layer of gel memory foam.

Any guess what would be a good substitute for Serta’s Comfort Foam? Thinking an APM bamboo/wool mattress cover would replicate the SPT quilted top, and one of the FoamByMail 2" Super Soft or HD36 2" layers could replicate the Comfort Foam. May or may not bother with a gel memory foam layer…

[DelrayTaco]

Well, @Basilio, things seem to be moving in the wrong direction and I can’t figure out why.

Last night the layers were rearranged to the following:

Knowing how quickly my body responds to these changes, this was done to try and duplicated the Serta SPT but the results were baaaaad…

Lots of tossing and turning, most of which doesn’t seem to have been accurately tracked. But see around 3:30am where there’s more red? The mid/upper back and upper abdominal/rib muscle fatigue set in hard. Had to get out of bed and lay on the couch, and even then, it took a 1 or 2 hours for the fatigue pain to subside.

Obviously it’s difficult to put into words but it seems like my body is fighting the resilience of the latex, particularly the “bouncier” / “springier” soft Talalay. The initial feel is great but after a while, it almost feels like it’s pushing up too much, or maybe the springiness isn’t providing enough solid stability like memory foam or polyfoam would…?

For the sake of experimenting, there’s a 2" 3.5-lbs gel memory foam layer on the way. This will go into the bamboo cover with the 2" medium Dunlop layer.

[Basilio]

Hi DelreyTaco,

Quite a lot of data points! Some things to keep in mind while you ‘experiment’:

• Close tracking of your sleep with your fit bit is great, but personally I notice some discrepancies with my own, as in the profile presented sometimes isn’t totally accurate on
  sleep amount, REM sleep, etc.

• We usually recommend that to adequately ‘break in’ a mattress, as well as your body become accustomed to the new mattress can take 4-6 weeks, just to give you a ‘baseline’

• Your frequent travel allows you to sleep in different beds, but only briefly; it’s therefore hard to pinpoint the issue ‘remotely’, as it were.

• It would be difficult, if not impossible to ‘match’ any Serta or ‘big brand’, as there is no information on the densities of their proptrietary foams.

• Likewise, a latex mattress cannot ‘mimic’ the feel of a memory foam/gel foam mattress. You are trying to find the right combination of comfort sand support.

• Ken at APM should be able to help with configuring layers
  If you explain the feel you are going for…he has years of experience in finding the right combination for specific sleep profiles.

• The Dunlop topper is a good idea so you can actually feel the difference between that and the Talalay.

Keep persisting! You are in the midst of the DIY fine tuning that drives some consumers crazy, drilling down to the ideal. You are very data-oriented, which is awesome! But keep in mind the points above…at this point you don’t want to fall into the ‘grass is always greener on the other side of the fence’ mindset when you are briefly trying mattresses that are new to you, especially with all the factors affecting your quality of sleep.

~ Basilio