DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive

Mattress Talk Materials, Specifications & Designs
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1

well, getting a little frustrating, esp since latex prices are up at least $100 on king 3" making it harder to experiment

210lb, 6’

bottom → top
3" 34ILD SOL dunlop, 3" 28ILD blended talalay x2 (9" total)

stuck now having just ordered a 9" cover from APM, i suppose we can add on top, but i’d like to nail it down within the 9" constraint

still having issues where my hips/butt sink in more than my upper body causing back pain

whats the play here? it seems like i need to ‘stop’ my butt from sinking past where my upper body can go, i just dont know how to do that with them being different weights

i do have access to a 24ILD blended talalay (however measured a 22.5ILD) that is currently doubled up on the wifes side

help!

2

If you’re suffering from hammocking then it means you need to stiffen up the support layers below. For someone your weight usually you’d have a configuration like this.

3" talalay 19-22ILD - Comfort Layer
3" talalay 32ILD - Support Layer
3" talalay 36ILD - Support Layer
3" talalay 44ILD - Support Layer

So from here I would suggest getting at least a 36ILD talalay, then put that at the bottom and remove one of the 28ILD talalay layers (you may try that on your wife’s side) and see how it feels. For your weight you really should have at least a 12" mattress (4 layer) but try the 9" anyway to see if you can make it work for you.

3

Are you recommending Natural Talalay because it’s more supportive than Dunlop?

I love NT, and I am trying to help my husband get his side of the bed “just right”. He is 175# and 6’4". Side/back combo sleeper. He frequently wakes up with low back pain. He is now thinking that a hybrid (Quantum Edge Elite 8" + 3" firm NT) is working for his alignment. The challenge is finding the balance of comfort/pressure relive while maintaining proper alignment?

4

yeah, that was my fear

I could always try a 3" lux foam @50lb under the 9" latex if I needed that 4th layer?

if I did that, I wonder if I could get away with

34 dun, 32 tal, (play with the 22/28 tal here)

or do you think this is the play

36 tal, 34 dun, (play with the 22/28 tal here). fear of it being too stiff

5

I don’t know why I just remembered this, at one point I had

34 SOL dun x2, 28 tal, and it was too stiff

which is why I’m perhaps questioning the 36 addition

however I did not have the 22ild the last time, so maybe that’s how it helps?

6

Not sure I follow. Didn’t you mention above in your first post that 34D/28T/28T caused hammocking?

When you design a mattress you usually want it to be progressive (the harder you push the more support it provides). This support needs to be matched to your body weight and BMI or you can end up with issues as you’ve seen. The key is to always make sure you have enough support first then add the comfort part after to tweak the mattress for your liking. Most do the reverse and quikly find out it didn’t work quite as well as they thought it might.

So if you got a layer of 36T you then have several options (see below) with the worst case being you need to get one more 32T layer later. Considering hammocking is a problem I would err on providing proper support first then make additional purchases/adjustments as needed. Finally you can add in a zoning layer as well if you can’t get any of the standard combos to work.

Options
36T/34D/28T/22T
36T/34D/28T/28T
36T/34D/28T
36T/28T/28T
36T/28T/22T
36T/34D/22T

7

[quote=“buttercupbetty post=91770”]Are you recommending Natural Talalay because it’s more supportive than Dunlop?

I love NT, and I am trying to help my husband get his side of the bed “just right”. He is 175# and 6’4". Side/back combo sleeper. He frequently wakes up with low back pain. He is now thinking that a hybrid (Quantum Edge Elite 8" + 3" firm NT) is working for his alignment. The challenge is finding the balance of comfort/pressure relive while maintaining proper alignment?[/quote]

Dunlop and talalay have very different response curves which means that they react differently depending on how hard you push on them. Talalay is more contouring than dunlop which is very good for people that are side sleepers, have curvy shoulders/hips/bums/etc or may have certain medical conditions. Usually you can substitute talalay (in similar ILD) for dunlop but not vice versa. In the case of your husband you need to figure out why he’s getting lower back pain from the mattress first in order to be able to correct it. Usually it’s from 2 main causes, hammocking (lack of support) or hip rotation (lack of travel in the bum area). Once you narrow it down then you can begin to address the design that fixes your issue.

8

For my husband, my guess is hammocking. His side of the bed had a body impression…

9

[quote=“Mattrebuild post=91775”][quote=“datrumole post=91774”]I don’t know why I just remembered this, at one point I had

34 SOL dun x2, 28 tal, and it was too stiff

which is why I’m perhaps questioning the 36 addition

however I did not have the 22ild the last time, so maybe that’s how it helps?[/quote]

Not sure I follow. Didn’t you mention above in your first post that 34D/28T/28T caused hammocking?

When you design a mattress you usually want it to be progressive (the harder you push the more support it provides). This support needs to be matched to your body weight and BMI or you can end up with issues as you’ve seen. The key is to always make sure you have enough support first then add the comfort part after to tweak the mattress for your liking. Most do the reverse and quikly find out it didn’t work quite as well as they thought it might.

So if you got a layer of 36T you then have several options (see below) with the worst case being you need to get one more 32T layer later. Considering hammocking is a problem I would err on providing proper support first then make additional purchases/adjustments as needed. Finally you can add in a zoning layer as well if you can’t get any of the standard combos to work.

Options
36T/34D/28T/22T
36T/34D/28T/28T
36T/34D/28T
36T/28T/28T
36T/28T/22T
36T/34D/22T[/quote]

thank you, and apologies

my current configuration is 34d/28t/28t, and for some reason, literally been so long on this journey, that i just remembered that at one point i had a 34d/34d/28t and it was a touch too hard

so i feel like right now that a potentially stiffer than 34/34 with 36t/34d/28t leaves me with one real option 36t/34d/24t, and maybe thats the one, who knows

i suppose i can start at 36t, and always exchange it for 32t, and move to a xfirm/34d/32t/(24/28). do you think in that scenario, in lieu of the cost of latex, that i could use a 50lb foam as the xfirm layer is a feasible option?

10

[quote=“datrumole post=91781”]thank you, and apologies

my current configuration is 34d/28t/28t, and for some reason, literally been so long on this journey, that i just remembered that at one point i had a 34d/34d/28t and it was a touch too hard

so i feel like right now that a potentially stiffer than 34/34 with 36t/34d/28t leaves me with one real option 36t/34d/24t, and maybe thats the one, who knows

i suppose i can start at 36t, and always exchange it for 32t, and move to a xfirm/34d/32t/(24/28). do you think in that scenario, in lieu of the cost of latex, that i could use a 50lb foam as the xfirm layer is a feasible option?[/quote]

I would caution against just using ILD to compare the layers. Talalay feels very different than dunlop (I spent quite a bit on SOL dunlop layers before realizing this). So you may find that the 36t/34d/28t actually feels softer (still firm yet conforming) than the 34d/34t/28t simply because it allows for more travel. Mysuggestion would be if the 36T alone still feels a tad bit hard (but is better than the 34d/34d/28t) then get the 32T to add to the stack instead of just exchanging it. Can’t help you on the foam sustitution but it may make it harder to troubleshoot if it doesn’t end up working well for you. Good bedding materials aren’t cheap but then I always ask myself in the end what’s a good night’s sleep really worth?

11

What has been an absolute godsend for me in tuning my bed precisely, and therefore avoiding back pain by getting support just exactly right, is not just what’s in the mattress, but what’s under it. I have one of those European slat systems. Bendy wood with little rubber sliders that let you set firmness distinctly every 5 inches or so.

First I get the tuning just right, lying in various positions and seeing if I’m more comfortable with things more or less elevated, then marking the spot I want to adjust up or down with my finger, getting off the bed, and tuning that spot, then repeat.

As the mattress wears, I can extend its useful life to me by adjusting the tuning to compensate.

12

datrumole, I am in a similar situation and somewhat remember your previous thread.

if you struck out with your previous 3 layer configurations the only one left might be 34/34/comfort layer. But the more likely resolution is to go to 4 layers as mattrebuild suggested. If might seem counter intuitive given your previous experience, but a firmer 4th layer at the bottom will provide the softness/travel you are looking for while simultaneously maintain support. I think the question becomes do you go with something like

44/36/32/19-24 comfort layer

or

44/32/32/19-24 comfort layer

13

sorry that second one should be 36/32/32/comfort layer

14

truth, i just feel like i’m so close, i’m sleeping great, but i can feel it’s literally on the cusp of right where i need it

question, i’ve often seen dunlop described as feeling about 4ild firmer than talalay (actually, pulled from APM’s website: “Available in Firm #36 ILD but when compared to Talalay latex feels more like #40 ILD”)

so do you think i could do the configuration as 34d/36t/(22|28) if the statement above is somewhat accurate, that would mean it’d be closely equivalent to 38t/36t/(22|28)

reason i ask is i’d need to cut the 34d since it’s a king right now. in your suggestion, of 36t/34d/(22|28) it’d be my second layer, but my wife’s first (34d/28t/24t), so they’d be on different planes

[quote=“lantern71 post=91791”]datrumole, I am in a similar situation and somewhat remember your previous thread.

if you struck out with your previous 3 layer configurations the only one left might be 34/34/comfort layer. But the more likely resolution is to go to 4 layers as mattrebuild suggested. If might seem counter intuitive given your previous experience, but a firmer 4th layer at the bottom will provide the softness/travel you are looking for while simultaneously maintain support. I think the question becomes do you go with something like

44/36/32/19-24 comfort layer

or

44/32/32/19-24 comfort layer[/quote]

yeah, we are very much on the same journey it seems. i’d love to just start over with my knowledge now and do exactly as matrebuild suggested, however i’m hopeful i can get a configuration that works for the next 6-8y and i can revisit then

so right now i’m going to head to 36t/34d/(22|28t) and if that doesnt work, exchange the 36 for a 32, and get an xfirm for a 44t/34d/32t/(22|28t)

however, who even sells 44ild talalay?

15

No one I know regularly stocks talalay that firm so you would have to find a vendor willing to order it for you. Don’t know that it matters that much at 44ild though. Maybe just grab Dunlop? A 4th layer by itself will add more travel and, unfortunately, more complexity.

Separately I will say I had some progress with odd configurations. Working with what I have on hand…F Dunlop /Med Talalay/soft Talalay/ med firm Dunlop, bottom to top, led to impeccable spinal alignment. Firmer than I would like but tolerable. Will be picking up more latex to see if I can improve softness but maintain alignment.

16

[quote=“datrumole post=91807”]truth, i just feel like i’m so close, i’m sleeping great, but i can feel it’s literally on the cusp of right where i need it

question, i’ve often seen dunlop described as feeling about 4ild firmer than talalay (actually, pulled from APM’s website: “Available in Firm #36 ILD but when compared to Talalay latex feels more like #40 ILD”)

so do you think i could do the configuration as 34d/36t/(22|28) if the statement above is somewhat accurate, that would mean it’d be closely equivalent to 38t/36t/(22|28)

reason i ask is i’d need to cut the 34d since it’s a king right now. in your suggestion, of 36t/34d/(22|28) it’d be my second layer, but my wife’s first (34d/28t/24t), so they’d be on different planes
[/quote]

The good news is it sounds like you’re close but obviously you want to minimize your investment if possible and being smart about your choices can help you do that. Remember that talalay and dunlop have very different response curves so the idea of dunlop feeling firmer is relative to how much pressure you’re applying. At lighter weights dunlop actually feels softer than talalay for the same ILD rating and obviously vice versa at higher weights (dunlop firms up faster than talalay the more you push into it). The bigger question is which is the better design choice? Again that depends on what you’re trying to solve. If you are only trying to firm up the mattress and you aren’t particularly concerned with travel (curvy folks with wider shoulders/hips/rear) then dunlop may work fine but if that is also a concern then dunlop won’t give you the benefit of increased travel/firmness at the same time like talalay will. It’s not that one’s better than the other, you just need to know when to use each material and how it will affect your design. My suggestion would be to cut the 34D in half (electric carving knife) and then you can play around with the 36T without affecting your wife’s side at all. Then from there you can look at what you need to adjust to dial your mattress in further to your liking.

Look at page 16-17 and it shows all the talalay types and ILDs available from the supplier.
(19/22/28/32/36 ILD are all pretty common but 40 X-firm and 44 S-firm are usually special order)
https://online.flippingbook.com/view/734920800/18/

17

[quote=“lantern71 post=91811”]No one I know regularly stocks talalay that firm so you would have to find a vendor willing to order it for you. Don’t know that it matters that much at 44ild though. Maybe just grab Dunlop? A 4th layer by itself will add more travel and, unfortunately, more complexity.

Separately I will say I had some progress with odd configurations. Working with what I have on hand…F Dunlop /Med Talalay/soft Talalay/ med firm Dunlop, bottom to top, led to impeccable spinal alignment. Firmer than I would like but tolerable. Will be picking up more latex to see if I can improve softness but maintain alignment.[/quote]

ah, so you went 4 layer as well, just ordered up the 36t

got the 34d cut, and did a 34d/34d/24t (really closer to 22 based on measurement on sticket) and it feels nice, but i can see where adding some further firmness to it will help

its almost like you need the top layer to just soak you in, and hit a layer thats firm enough to not really move, but also not be a brick

the whole thing is very weird playing with all the layers, and how each configuration produces it’s own thing

stinks the first time through, but i’m at least confident down the road when i’m just replacing comfort layers i’ll be pleased i went through some of these pains to dial it in

18

[quote=“Mattrebuild post=91819”]The good news is it sounds like you’re close but obviously you want to minimize your investment if possible and being smart about your choices can help you do that. Remember that talalay and dunlop have very different response curves so the idea of dunlop feeling firmer is relative to how much pressure you’re applying. At lighter weights dunlop actually feels softer than talalay for the same ILD rating and obviously vice versa at higher weights (dunlop firms up faster than talalay the more you push into it). The bigger question is which is the better design choice? Again that depends on what you’re trying to solve. If you are only trying to firm up the mattress and you aren’t particularly concerned with travel (curvy folks with wider shoulders/hips/rear) then dunlop may work fine but if that is also a concern then dunlop won’t give you the benefit of increased travel/firmness at the same time like talalay will. It’s not that one’s better than the other, you just need to know when to use each material and how it will affect your design. My suggestion would be to cut the 34D in half (electric carving knife) and then you can play around with the 36T without affecting your wife’s side at all. Then from there you can look at what you need to adjust to dial your mattress in further to your liking.

Look at page 16-17 and it shows all the talalay types and ILDs available from the supplier.
(19/22/28/32/36 ILD are all pretty common but 40 X-firm and 44 S-firm are usually special order)
https://online.flippingbook.com/view/734920800/18/[/quote]

thanks so much for your help! ordered up the 36, had the local spot cut my 34d in half, and hopefully it get’s here relatively quick and i can get to testing out some of the configs

will report back, great community here!

19

[quote=“datrumole post=91827”]ah, so you went 4 layer as well, just ordered up the 36t

got the 34d cut, and did a 34d/34d/24t (really closer to 22 based on measurement on sticket) and it feels nice, but i can see where adding some further firmness to it will help

its almost like you need the top layer to just soak you in, and hit a layer thats firm enough to not really move, but also not be a brick

the whole thing is very weird playing with all the layers, and how each configuration produces it’s own thing

stinks the first time through, but i’m at least confident down the road when i’m just replacing comfort layers i’ll be pleased i went through some of these pains to dial it in[/quote]

From a design standpoint ideally you want the top layer to provide primarily pressure relief (hence why they call it a comfort layer) and the lower layers provide your alignment (hence being called support layers). In the real world it doesn’t always work out eaxctly like this (ie the layers all work together to provide both alignment and pressure relief). The problem comes as you’ve noted when people try to make the layers do too much (expecting the comfort layer to add significant alignment or support layers to add significant pressure relief). This is why you move up in the number of layers to achieve your goal (ie 3 layers vs 4 layers vs 5 layers). The heavier and more curvy you are, the more layers you’re likely to need to make it work. This is also why you might chose dunlop or talalay depending on what you need it to do in your design. Again it’s not a case of more layers is always better (you always want the simplest design that works for you) but again if you try to do too much with too few layers the foam material limitations will prevent you from getting it tailored perfectly for your liking. Hope this makes sense.

20

[quote=“Mattrebuild post=91837”]
From a design standpoint ideally you want the top layer to provide primarily pressure relief (hence why they call it a comfort layer) and the lower layers provide your alignment (hence being called support layers). In the real world it doesn’t always work out eaxctly like this (ie the layers all work together to provide both alignment and pressure relief). The problem comes as you’ve noted when people try to make the layers do too much (expecting the comfort layer to add significant alignment or support layers to add significant pressure relief). This is why you move up in the number of layers to achieve your goal (ie 3 layers vs 4 layers vs 5 layers). The heavier and more curvy you are, the more layers you’re likely to need to make it work. This is also why you might chose dunlop or talalay depending on what you need it to do in your design. Again it’s not a case of more layers is always better (you always want the simplest design that works for you) but again if you try to do too much with too few layers the foam material limitations will prevent you from getting it tailored perfectly for your liking. Hope this makes sense.[/quote]

i dont 100% get it, but i get what your saying (if that makes sense)

there are so many design variables, it makes it really challenging, but also fun to learn about, but also frustrating with limited DIY sourcing options for most folk (especially here on the east coast)

you rely so much on heresy on forums trying to gather enough information to make intelligent choices without having seen/touch/felt anything. and you have people who can literally sleep on anything (my wife) and you’ll read their weight and height, not realizing their build is super soft, but it doesnt bother them vs me who’s got an INSANELY temperamental back (have degenerative disc disease)

it would be a lot easier if there was a show room with all the different talalay and dunlop layers under one roof, and you got to just mix, match, and play a bit. granted you still may not get it right on the first try, but you’d be a lot closer the first time around

after now 3 nights on 34d/34d/24t, my back is SIGNIFICANTLY happier. so i’m confident the 36 layer will add a touch more support, and we might be off and running! which i’m super excited about, so thank you! i would have 100% ordered a 32t which wouldn’t have fixed anything

right now the thing for me that seems to be the biggest design challenge is, my butt/hips are just way heavier than my upper body, so i just dont know how you design around that. thats why i was thinking that the upper most layer has to be soft enough so that all the body parts sink to the same plane else you are already creating a hammock in a way just in the first 3 inches. heck maybe for heavier people, a 3" topper might not be best, perhaps a 2" super soft, and a 2" med-firm. sink through the top and get everything down to the same plane, then start to hit the support

if i had to start over, i’d honestly be eyeing: 6" 36(t or d) / 2" 32t/ 2" 24t