DIY latex mattress help ( budget )

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
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Hello, and thanks for the great forum here. I have read hundreds of posts in the past 4 days or so, and have learned a lot.

This is my first post, but I will get right to it, and appreciate any responses. I am going to be building my first latex mattress in the next couple of months and was wondering if someone could give me some feedback on the latex sources and building technique I have decided to use. My body type is ectomorph, so small bone structure, lightly muscled 140 pounds at 5’11". I measured my arm pit to outside shoulder and it comes out to 3 inches almost exactly. My waist (31 inch) and hips are practically straight down, maybe an inch or 2 max, but I am more concerned about having enough shoulder sinkage personally because this has been a problem with all other beds I have owned(which is what spurred my interest in diy). A few things of noteworthy mention might be; I have slept on firm(surface feel and support) beds and don’t like the floating above the mattress feeling whatsoever, or the abrupt transition to support. I like to be enveloped in a puffy softness for the first 2 inches at least, with gradually increasing soft support under that. The problem I have had with all other mattress to this point is that the support layer has been too firm and comfort cradle too thin(apparently), as I have had arm numbness in the past few years, as well as sore hips. I have tried about 6 or 7 memory foam mattresses and finally gave up due to massive heat retention, a big downfall for me. The spring mattresses I have tried thus far, at least for me, feel much too firm(both support, and surface feel). I suppose I am under the weight of the targeted general audience for most beds and am under BMI for my height. One of my aims with this project is too avoid a mattress topper of the memory foam variety for reason previously mentioned. I did try one diy mattress build before this one, a couple years back, 3 inches memory foam over a 35 ILD core of 4 inch 1.8 pound density poly. The problem I had with this setup was, I would quickly "melt through the 3 inch topper I had, abruptly meeting the extremely firm( to me) 35 ILD core. I think I needed some medium in there between the soft and firm transition but instead bought another memory foam pad, equaling 5 inches of memory foam, to soften my hip and shoulder area. While this is working temporarily to some degree it has created problems in other areas; for one, the heat buildup from memory foam, and two; hammocking to some degree. The most memory foam I can appreciate in a mattress is 2 inches on top, but will attempt building a mattress without any, and see if I can create the very plush surface feel I enjoy, while still having the gradual support, not abrupt.

So here are my thoughts:
Since I still have the 4 inch core of 35 ILD 1.8lb poly foam and know how it feels(very supportive albeit firm), I’ll be using this 4 inches as the base of the mattress due to a 350 dollar budget. On top of that I was thinking 2 inches (listed as 1.8 inches)of medium 24-28 ild Dunlop from Foamorder.com as the transition layer, followed by 2.8 inches of their soft Dunlop listed at 11-18 ILD. I did get a sample of this softest Dunlop and it does feel quite soft( at least in hand, like it would make the plushness I desire on top, although I have no way of telling which ild it would be between the 11-18 nor how it would feel in an entire layer, not just how it feels in my hand. I will say though, it seems nice and soft.

I suppose my questions are: Does anyone have thoughts on ordering those layers from foamorder.com as opposed to the quality of another source I’ve found, sleeponlatex? The price is about equivalent for both, around 260 dollars for both layers I was interested. My other question is; would this layering system provide the plushness I’m looking for on the surface while at the same time adding some progressive support and comfort in the 1.9 inches underneath? For some frame of reference here, when laying on the 4 inch core of 1.8lb poly I’m going to use, I barely sink in with my hip or shoulder. So while some people might consider only 4 inches of 35 ILD poly for support inadequate, for my size and weight it seems more than enough. Anyway, if anyone has a rough idea of how this may feel for someone of my size and weight, as well as mattress feel preferences, I would appreciate it. I really do not want to have to send latex back, but at the same time am somewhat desperate here, as the online and store mattresses just aren’t comfortable to me, and I would enjoy the DIY aspect if it can workout. I do realize feel is subjectively experienced relative to user, but would appreciate any feedback about this build.

Additional thought: I initially thought about an all HR poly build in the comfort layers, but due to mislabeling of manufactures (discussed here) on what HR actually is, decided against it.

Thanks!
-Gardenguy

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Correction: layers from both sources would be around $320-350. And the foamorder.com latex is 2.9 and 1.9 inches, (not 2.8 and 1.8inches).

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Hi gardenguy,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I’m glad that the information here has been useful to you.

Regarding beginning a new DIY project, the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

I understand the issue you’re having with the 5" of memory foam on top of your polyfoam core. The latex combination you’re considering certainly would provide more surface support, but still should provide good contouring while you sleep upon your side, and hopefully sleep “cooler” for you. There’s no reason that what you’re considering wouldn’t work for you and what you describe, but as you’re aware this is all quite subjective with a DIY mattress and there can be considerable trial and error, and unfortunately I can’t predict how this might feel for you.

Even though they aren’t a member of the site, I would consider Foamorder to be a reliable supplier. Sleep on Latex, a site member here (which means I think highly of them) would also be a good source of latex componentry and I wouldn’t hesitate to contact them directly via phone for their advice on how their Dunlop latex might work with your particular situation, as I do trust in their product knowledge.

I’m hoping that whatever configuration you eventually decide to choose that it will work well for you. If you have more specific questions, I’ll do my best to answer them as best I can.

Phoenix

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Thank you Phoenix! I think I will contact sleeponlatex and ask them about my preferences, and build idea to get their opinions on how it might feel. Thanks again for the guidance and suggestions.

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Hi gardenguy,

That sounds like a good plan and I’ll be interested in learning about your discussion/decisions.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Just a bit of an update here. After contacting Sleep On Latex it was suggested omitting the medium firmness entirely and just going with 5 inches of 20 ILD, since their medium 30 ILD would be so close to the ILD of my base foam that it would not add to the comfort factor. I suppose I was under the assumption, and maybe this is from looking at so many online mattress constructions, that a transition layer with an ild between the base and top layer would make the feel less abrupt. However, I suppose with latex being a completely different “animal” than poly foams, this isn’t necessarily the case always. Do you think a transition layer is less needed in latex Phoenix, or would you say that may be more beneficial in an all poly or memory foam bed? I know you had said the feel of a mattress is subjective and bound to each user. I do have two separate questions for you if it is possible for you to objectively clue me in:

  1. Would using a 3 inch -15 ild layer in the top and a 2 inch-20 ild layer below that(both in dunlop) make much of a difference in feel? If not I thought of just ordering from Sleeponlatex, and not foamorder. Foamorder however carries the 11-18ild super soft.

  2. If I truly want a pillowy type feel on top (similar to 10 ild soft memory foam) should I be looking for Talalay instead of Dunlop to begin with? Or should I be looking for low ILD hr poly foams. * I had mentioned I wanted to steer clear of memory foam.

Thanks for any suggestions!

-gardenguy

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Additional mention: Foamorder is the only place I have seen latex (dunlop) in the mid teen(11-18) ilds. Sleeponlatex carries it only down to 20 ild. Suppose it’s an average low of 15 for foamorder(?)

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Hi gardenguy,

That could make very good sense - they have an excellent point.

There’s much more information about how all of the layers of a mattress work together in this post. I wouldn’t get too “caught up” in the labelling of certain layers of the need to have a certain number of layers within a mattress. Latex has the ability to firm up as you sink into it more deeply, as this is discussed in more detail in this post, and because of this higher compression modulus, especially with Dunlop latex, you can start out with an initial soft feel (softer layer above “bending into” this layer gradually) and then as more weight is applied the comfort can firm up and become more supportive/firmer, so in some cases a single piece of latex can act similarly to two layers of progressive ILDs laminated together. Without getting too far down the rabbit hole, I speak to this a bit in both the progressive and differential construction articles.

I’m not sure what you’re comparing this to. If you mean would the 5" 15/20 ILD combination feel different from the 5" 20 ILD? If that is the case, most people would be able to notice this difference and would say that the 15/20 combination would feel softer.

In the very soft feels, Talalay at the 14/15 ILD range is usually the most popular. You can also look for convoluted latex layers which will be quite plush. There are some sources for latex componentry here.

I don’t have a listing of what latex distributor carries which particular softness currently (and I don’t have time to comb through that right now -sorry), but the softest you’ll tend to find in Dunlop would be in the 55 kg/M3 range. 65 kg/M3 is more common.

There are some newer generations of high performance polyfoams that are higher in density but can be made quite plush. Those would generally be the only ultra soft types of polyfoams I would consider.

Phoenix

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Thanks Phoenix! I appreciate the links to that bit of reading and will further my education there. Looks like I have some mulling over to do and a few options to consider. I will keep you posted as far as to what I decide to do.

10

Hi gardenguy,

Sounds good. I’ll be interested in learning what you decide to do.

Phoenix

11

Hi Phoenix,

So after much deliberation and speaking-chatting with 3 latex providers I have decided on 4 inch medium firm poly base in 35 ild, 3 inches soft 20 ild dunlop, and 3 inches 20 ild talalay on top. Hopefully I don’t regret the choice, which was somewhat confusing, since I received conflicting( not a surprise) opinions from each source I talked to. I know comfort is subjective and all one can do is experiment in the DIY realm until one gets it right. I am pretty certain I made the right choice on the all natural talalay, as I do like to sleep on a soft and somewhat “pillowy” top layer. I am less certain if I made the right choice on soft dunlop under that. I gave my height, weight and sleeping preferences and comfort issues( 140 lbs, 5’10", side sleeper, pressure point issues in shoulder) to all three sources. One of my sources told me they would recommend 3 inch soft talalay over 3 inch soft talalay (20 ild) , another said soft talalay (20 ild) over medium talalay (24 ild) and the third said two layers of soft dunlop. The dunlop provider has a 30 day return policy with no penalty so I can always get the soft over medium talalay in the end if I want to.

Well, the soft dunlop layer is coming today so I can test that out on the 4 inch (35 ild) poly base tonight and see what that feels like alone, since the talalay top layer isn’t coming for another week.

Given what I’ve disclosed about my weight-height, and sleep preferences do you think the soft over soft (talalay-dunlop) may not provide enough support? If so I can always do soft over medium talalay. I suppose I won’t know how the different characteristics of dunlop-vs talalay intermingle until I try it. How would you see the differences of 3 inch talalay over 3 inch soft dunlop vs. 3 inch soft talalay over 3 inches soft (or medium) talalay playing out for me?

I did manage to stay within my budget of under 450 dollars. More or less just processing here, thanks for listening! (I suppose I’m nervous about my choice) :slight_smile:

-gardenguy

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By the way, I went with Sleep on latex for the dunlop, and mattresses247 ebay seller for the talalay, since I saw them on your recommended providers list. The website you have here in general has been a great resource. Thanks! Also thanks to all the posters in this forum, it has been great to see how other people have been doing in the DIY arena.

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Hi gardenguy,

Congratulations on your new DIY component purchases! :cheer: You certainly chose some high-quality componentry.

You’re correct that every supplier will have their own recommendations and preferences, but all of what you received was “in the ballpark” of relationship with each other, with some advising a slightly firmer layer beneath your upper layer.

That sounds like a logical manner to proceed. :wink:

Assuming similar ILD ranges, Dunlop will “firm up faster” (have a higher compression modulus) than Talalay, but the deeper down in the mattress, the less noticeable those differences become. I’d consider the potential changing from a “plush” to a “medium” transition layer to be more of a priority than choosing between Dunlop or Talalay, as changing the ILD of that latex layer will have a greater impact on comfort than the production process.

There’s certainly no reason that the configuration you’ve selected wouldn’t work, but as you mentioned it will come down to your own personal testing to see if these is too much surface plushness with the multiple plush layers on top and if you need to change out the middle layer to a medium.

Congratulations on that! And being excited about your creation is a normal part of the DIY process. I hope that it works out well for you and I’ll be interested in learning about your new configuration once you’ve had a chance to sleep upon it for a while.

Phoenix

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Additional thought: I don’t mean to ask how do you think it’ll feel for ME, but rather what might the characteristics of each layering scenario I laid out affect feel. Examples, would going with the talalay layers in the end make it a bit springier and supportive, or just the opposite. Would medium 24-27 talalay, feel similar in support to soft 20 ild dunlop? I know you had mentioned there are many variables between manufacturers as far as how their latex feels as well. If the difference is subtle between talalay and dunlop I might just hang onto the dunlop. How much would you expect the support to dissintegrate in 5 years time. If that is a factor I’m thinking maybe I should have gone soft-medium, and not soft soft. So many questions at the end of the day, probably because I am new to latex. Thanks for any insights! I do appreciate your help.

15

Oops, just got your reply, thanks!

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Hi gardenguy,

I’d recommend that you try out your complete configuration and sleep on that for some time before making any decisions about potential layer changes.

Phoenix

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I have run into a minor hurdle. The 19 ILD talalay comfort layer is much, much too soft, as I have compromised my spinal alignment as a result of my desire for plushness (in a 3 inch thickness). Being that I have no experience with latex I consider myself lucky that I really like the feel and support of the dunlop middle layer I chose, in 20 ILD. Even though the talalay and dunlop are almost the same ILD, they have completely different characteristics. The dunlop is a great middle layer for me due to my need for support( long standing back injury) but I am sending the comfort layer of talalay back. I feel I should have gotten 2 inch maximum, and probably gone with medium 23-27 ILD. I feel this combined with the more progressive resistance of the dunlop would have been a better choice. Of course I have no way of knowing, since I have never tried medium talalay ILD’s. Does anyone happen to know if medium talalay feels substantially firmer than soft? Can a number be put on that, like 10% firmer, 25% firmer? I really had my heart set on talalay as a comfort layer, but surprisingly( even at my weight of 140lbs-5’11") it is still too soft( for me anyway).

I realize every body is different, as well as comfort preferences so this isn’t really a huge surprise. Building your own mattress with no experience takes some trial and error, but hopefully in the end it will all be worth it.

Because I can’t have too thick of a top comfort layer, risking throwing my back out of alignment, would I be better off buying a zoned topper to relieve shoulder pressure? Is there such a thing? It doesn’t help that from my chest down to my waist is practically straight as a tree trunk, but my shoulder are 3 inches from inside to outside. I get too soft a comfort layer and my lower back hurts, not soft enough and my shoulder feels like its on the floor half way through the night. Would I be better of with another 2 inch layer of soft dunlop vs. medium talalay in 2 inch? Trying again for this top most layer is my next step. Finding a compromise between plush and support.

Thanks for any suggestions.

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By the way, the middle dunlop layer is 3 inch, and the base is 4 inch 1.8lb 35 ILD poly foam. I have tried laying on these two alone, very supportive and quite firm, a bit too firm without a third top layer of some kind. I want to stay away from memory foam. If I could find a 2 inch thick Certipur HR poly foam in low ILD’s it might suffice, but I have not found that. I prefer latex really.

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Hi gardenguy,

It sounds that you like the higher compression modulus (firming up faster) of Dunlop versus Talalay. Even though your Talalay and Dunlop layers are similar in ILDs, they do have a different feel, as you’ve noticed (the Dunlop will tend to feel firmer than the Talalay). One good way to compare the difference in the manner in which Talalay and Dunlop respond to weight when applied, you could with your current layers place the Talalay on top of the polyfoam core and compare that to the feel of the Dunlop on top of the polyfoam core. Some people definitely have an affinity for the feel of one versus the other.

As you seem to want just a bit more surface plushness, but still good alignment, and a 2" latex choice certainly could be a good option. If you like the feel of Dunlop, adding a 2" piece of something in the mid 20 ILD range could be a good option. You could place this atop the 20 ILD Dunlop that you already have for a bit of a “dominant layer” construction, or if you found that too firm you could place the 2" beneath the 20 ILD Dunlop layer you currently have and see how that works. If you decide to go with Talalay for the upper layer, you already have a good idea that you need to choose a firmer ILD, so the mid 20s would be a good choice there as well. You may prefer the Dunlop, as it seems you desire some initial plushness but then want deeper firmness for alignment. But this is a supposition on my part.

As for zoning, various zoning systems can be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here. You may also want to read post #2 here and post #7 here (latex monozone unique properties). Zoned layers of latex can be found, but it is more common in the cores. Some suppliers for latex layers are listed in this component post.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for all the good information here. I am learning a little more each day about what I like and don’t like in a latex configuration. My mind has changed after doing some further experimentation. Now my current thoughts are that it’s actually the dunlop I didn’t like. See, I put the talalay layer directly on the foam core without the dunlop and felt how much more comforming and pressure relieving it was for me, for me more conforming than dunlop. The problem I was running into personally was; soft talalay over soft dunlop is no good, it was much too soft. I originally blamed the talalay layer for this, because it was the closest to the surface. In reality it was the combination of the two together. I actually like the feel of talalay better as a top layer( thanks for suggesting the talalay only experiment). I am sending the dunlop back and picking out a medium to medium firm talalay layer to sandwich in between the 4 inch 1.8lb 35 ild poly foam and 3 inch 20 ild top layer. The problem I’m having is deciding whether to order talalay rated 24-27 for the middle layer, or 28-32. I do know soft talalay over soft dunlop is too soft, so it would stand to reason 27-27 in talalay could be too soft as well due to it having a lower compression modulus? I really don’t want to have to send two toppers back, so I would like to get it right this second time. Do you think the 24-27 ild would be so close to the soft dunlop in ILD that it could be problematic, given that the 20 ild dunlop was too soft under my 20 talalay? I think the safer bet may be to go with natural talalay rated as 28-32. Any thoughts you have would be appreciated. I have learned a lot in the past 2 weeks about how layers intermingle with each other and how it influences the overall feel of the bed. I do think I’m close to arriving at my ideal set-up however. I’m deciding to use 3 inch layers instead of one 3 and one 2, by the way.