[quote=“Phoenix” post=1659]Since we were talking about Bedcrafters, I thought I’d take the chance to talk with them this morning and find out more about what they were making and the materials and types of construction they were using.
Their number is out of service so I guess it’s a moot point. I’ll list them as out of business in my database. They are (sadly) probably another casualty of the current environment and recent industry trends including some of the more onerous regulations that made life more difficult for many smaller local factory direct manufacturers or even some of the larger ones such as one of the more recent “casualties” here.
Phoenix[/quote]
Bedcrafters is apparently a fairly recent casualty. Found a review from March of this year and their web site coupon was dated November of 2010.
Anybody out there that ever bought in the past from The Sleep Shop in Highland, Indiana, another casualty? The reason I ask is, if so, and you still have one of their mattresses in service, I’d be interested to know who the manufacturer is. That was the best mattress I ever owned, repaired for free when it got lumpy and uncomfortable at something like year 8, and ultimately lasted about 15 years total. I recall it being a very reasonably price mattress–could not have afforded anything else back then. I’d seek out the manufacturer if still in business to at least scope out the offerings–maybe came from an Indiana independent still in business like Holder in Lafayette or some such? If Holder by some chance made their mattresses, I might rethink a visit to Lafayette.
When I originally added Bedcrafters to my list I’m pretty sure they were still in business and that was early this year so I’m also guessing that they are only recently gone … especially since their website is still up.
I don’t know about “The Sleep Shop” in Indiana although I do know of one in Appleton, WI which makes their own mattresses. I did a search as well to see if they would come up and I didn’t find any references to them although Quality Sleep Shop in highland/lagrange came up a few times but of course we already know about them.
There’s some information about the 3 Holder mattresses in IN here and while the one in Lafayette is under 100 miles away, the other two are closer to Indianapolis.
There’s another factory direct that’s around 100 miles away http://www.michianamattress.com/ that used to be a King Koil licensee but now is a corporate owned mainly wholesale manufacturer but they do have a retail outlet for factory direct sales they opened recently. They are making a polyester fiber mattress core made from recycled bottles (as are some other manufacturers) so maybe they want some consumer feedback (or guinea pigs?)
Other than that there are several more in both IN and IL but they are all much further away.
If my wife wasn’t so stuck on memory foam(because one of her family members bought a Serta icomfort), I would have already picked up a mattress from Tim. Luckily, I got her away from the icomfort and I still have a few weeks to… lets just say educate her.
btw Phoenix, have you heard anything about this new gel foam? I saw a sample of it. It just looked like memory foam with gel swirled into it.
When I originally added Bedcrafters to my list I’m pretty sure they were still in business and that was early this year so I’m also guessing that they are only recently gone … especially since their website is still up.
I don’t know about “The Sleep Shop” in Indiana although I do know of one in Appleton, WI which makes their own mattresses. I did a search as well to see if they would come up and I didn’t find any references to them although Quality Sleep Shop in highland/lagrange came up a few times but of course we already know about them.
There’s some information about the 3 Holder mattresses in IN here and while the one in Lafayette is under 100 miles away, the other two are closer to Indianapolis.
There’s another factory direct that’s around 100 miles away http://www.michianamattress.com/ that used to be a King Koil licensee but now is a corporate owned mainly wholesale manufacturer but they do have a retail outlet for factory direct sales they opened recently. They are making a polyester fiber mattress core made from recycled bottles (as are some other manufacturers) so maybe they want some consumer feedback (or guinea pigs?)
Other than that there are several more in both IN and IL but they are all much further away.
Phoenix[/quote]
I might contact “The Sleep Shop” in Appleton and ask if they had an outlet in Highland. If the same outfit and run the same way, a good place from my prior experience.
I perused the Michiana Mattress web site and they did not seem to offer the high quality in general of some other independents. I’d be more inclined to scope out Holder first if any reason to visit a second place after going to my green mattress. Unfortunately, due to the holiday madness, I have not made the trek…yet…
[quote=“Dino” post=1672]Good Luck Jim. Let me know how it goes.
If my wife wasn’t so stuck on memory foam(because one of her family members bought a Serta icomfort), I would have already picked up a mattress from Tim. Luckily, I got her away from the icomfort and I still have a few weeks to… lets just say educate her.
btw Phoenix, have you heard anything about this new gel foam? I saw a sample of it. It just looked like memory foam with gel swirled into it.[/quote]
Let me know what you end up getting after waiting for the gel products to come in on the 10th, Dino. I may not make it up there until after that–not sure yet–want to visit during the week when Tim is there which complicates things due to work schedule.
This “hits the nail on the head” and is the reason why most warranties are much more of a sales tool than anything else. Foam softening is not the same as body impressions and while softening can happen much earlier in the life of lower quality foams, body impressions are the last stages of foam breakdown. A warranty with the standard body impression exclusion means that long after the foam softens to the extent that it becomes unsuitable for sleeping on … it is still not covered by the warranty. The most effective way to know how durable a mattress is and how long it will last is to know what is in every layer of a mattress. The weakest link of every mattress is the least durable layer and this is what will determine the life expectancy of the mattress. The closer to the top of a mattress (where it is most subject to mechanical stress) and the thicker this “weak” layer is, the more it will shorten the life of the mattress as a whole.
[quote]I might contact “The Sleep Shop” in Appleton and ask if they had an outlet in Highland. If the same outfit and run the same way, a good place from my prior experience.
I perused the Michiana Mattress web site and they did not seem to offer the high quality in general of some other independents. I’d be more inclined to scope out Holder first if any reason to visit a second place after going to my green mattress. Unfortunately, due to the holiday madness, I have not made the trek…yet… [/quote]
I’d love to hear the outcome of a phone call with The Sleep Shop as I haven’t had the chance to talk with them. They don’t mention any specific materials that they use in their mattresses and it looks like they may only make more “traditional” and lower budget mattresses using innersprings and polyfoam but a phone call can certainly clarify this.
I also agree with you about Michiana and mentioned them more for reference purposes and completeness than as a “better choice”. With the other options you have available … I doubt that I would make a long trip to visit them. I personally believe that My Green Mattress is one of the better values across the country and it would be difficult to find even a local manufacturer who offers the same quality choices and value.
There are quite a few different varieties of “gel foams” (besides the version of gel which is used in buckling column gel layers) and some seem to be better than others based on discussions I have had with various manufacturers. The gel material itself is cooler than memory foam (because it is convective much like a marble countertop feels cool to the touch because it draws heat from your body) and has viscoelastic qualities (displaces rather than compresses) and is very durable. It also has a different “feel” from memory foam and alters the qualities of memory foam that use it in various ways. Different gel formulations and combinations are creating a lot of interest among mattress manufacturers ( as evidenced by this article) as they are all trying to create branding stories and the perception that their version is better than anyone else. Here is an overview of various general types …
M1. Some are “powdered gel” or particulates which are mixed into the memory foam itself. The idea is that the gel particles or “beads” will stay under a person’s body while the memory foam itself “displaces”. the downside to this type of gel memory foam is the risk that the gel particles like some other memory foam fillers may shorten the life of the memory foam itself because they are not a part of the actual memory foam structure>
Some are actual gel material which is added in very thin layers on the surface. This is often a “swirl” or “just a touch” on top of memory foam. If it is very thin it is more “label copy” because while the layers themselves may change how the memory foam itself acts and feels … the laters are IMO too thin to take full advantage of the qualities of the gel material.
Some are gel material which is poured into pincores that have been punched into the base foam. This allows for thicker “pieces” of actual gel (as opposed to beads) which can compress more deeply with weight. This would appear to me to be a more durable and effective use of the gel (as the “pin core inserts” are thicker and react more independently from the memory foam) but of course, it is also a compromise that uses less material and is still a gel and memory foam combination.
Some are thicker layers of gel which are laminated onto a layer of polyfoam or memory foam. These use more meaningful layers of gel where the gel itself can act as an actual layer rather than being part of something else. This is probably the best method to take fullest advantage of the qualities of the gel itself but because the gel material is expensive … using it this way is also the most costly version.
There are also more coming out where the gel is actually poured into the memory foam and becomes part of the chemical structure and crosslinking of the foam itself rather than being more of a filler or addition. According to some conversations I have had … this appears to strengthen the structure of the memory foam and actually make it more durable rather than less and changes some of the qualities of “pure” memory foam. An example that was just introduced by one of our members is in post #1 here and there are others as well.
There is a lot of shaking out still to happen over the next few years as time will tell how each of these performs over the long term. Overall there is a lot of interest and even excitement about gel materials or combinations in general but there is just as much hype as there is fact in the stories that are being told.
I have emailed Tim to see if he still expects the delivery of the new gel foam on the 10th. Once I try the new foam, I will let you know what I decide upon.
This pretty much confirms my decision to focus on a mattress with latex foam for the top “comfort” layers (unless maybe some combo hybrid memory and latex top layering provides the right characteristics)–am going to rule out anything with any poly foam in the top layers. Thanks.
There are many different types of gel memory foams coming to market that use different methods of combining memory foam with gel material. The broad differences between them are in post #26 here. Some of the details about the foam are in the attachment to post #1 here as I believe that the foam that Tim is using is the same type of foam (he can of course confirm this). This type of memory foam and gel combination is IMO one of the “best” methods of combining the two as it apparently strengthens the polymer matrix structure of the memory foam itself rather than weakens it.
Of course as with any new material, the coming years will provide much more accurate “real life” feedback about all the different types of gel/memory foams coming to market … but at this point I believe that this type of infusion has the best odds of being the most durable of all the combinations.
Just an update. Stopped by Quality Sleep Shop and checked out the new gel foam mattress.
Here is the details of the mattress:
3" 3lb. Swirl gel foam -
1" blended latex 16 ILD
6" 2.8lb core 50 ILD
I didn’t realize the gel foam is 3lb until I got home. I am assuming it does not need to be 5lb or greater since its gel infused. Maybe you can elaborate Phoenix.
Other than this, Quality sleep shop is in the process of updating there website. They also will custom make mattresses to any specs. Something I think we were not sure of.
Also, I really cant say enough about Tim. Great guy and very helpful.
I also didn’t realize it was a 3 lb foam. This would be great if it was a polyfoam but of course very low if it was a memory foam.
The rest of the specs are great and it would have an interesting feel with a 4" comfort layer and then an ultra firm support core underneath it. This is an example of what I call a differential construction where the comfort layers and the support layers have a wide ILD difference and are more separated in their function. I’d love to hear your feedback on how it felt
I plan to talk with Tim and others about some of their impressions to get a clearer sense of what can be expected from this foam over time and also to clarify the base material so for now I’ll hold off on comments until I have a little more information to form a reasonable or more educated opinion.
I talked to Tim(he is probably sick of all my questions. ha) and he said it is 3lb gel foam. He said because of the gel, it makes it more dense and durable than 5lb foam. Also the testing done on this foam showed it to be more durable than 5lb foam as well as cooler.
I did lay on it for about a half hour the other day. It was very comfortable and very little motion transfer as one would expect with memory foam. Also it felt more lively than regular memory foam. imo, it bounced back better.
Tim does meet regulary with a group of others owners and he says they are all very impressed with the durablilty of this new gel foam. One of them being Beloit(Which Tim talks highly of). They believe it to be the most durable foam to date.
I did go ahead and order the mattress and it will be delivered Sunday. So I will update when it arrives.
I had a brief conversation with Tim today and that along with conversations with other manufacturers (some of whom are part of Tim’s group) has helped me to get a handle on the gelfoam and its characteristics and how to make more meaningful comparisons.
I am not a materials scientist so I will describe this using my own words. First its important to know that memory foam is a form of polyurethane foam which has been manufactured in a way and using certain chemicals that gives it more density and viscous qualities than typical polyurethane which has more elastic qualities. In a way you could call memory foam a form of polyurethane that has been “stopped” and stabilized (using certain chemicals and methods) in its curing process at a point where the viscous qualities are increased and the elastic qualities are decreased. These chemicals and “ingredients” increase the density of memory foam compared to polyfoam. They also make it more temperature sensitive than polyfoam (although there is a wide range among memory foams here as well).
The gel foam on the other hand uses ingredients which give the foam less temperature sensitivity and provide the viscoelastic qualities of memory foam without the increased density of conventional memory foam. In other words the gelfoam would be more comparable to polyfoam in terms of density, durability, and heat sensitivity comparisons but more comparable to memory foam in terms of its viscoelastic properties. It is more of a synthesis between the two than it is a mixture of two separate materials into one.
The “translation” of all of this is that the most meaningful comparisons in terms of density would be with HR polyfoam rather than with memory foam. There are also several foam manufacturers who are using versions of this material but the source that is making the foam that is being used by Tim and others has a much finer cell structure and a much nicer feel and is less temperature sensitive than the others. This also tells me that it is more “polyfoam” like in terms of its density and heat sensitivity than it is “memory foam” like … even though it shares the viscoelastic nature of memory foam. The gel would also move the foam in the direction of being a cooler material.
HR Polyfoam (the highest quality of polyfoam) in a 3 lb density is very durable and approaches latex (and in some aspects can even exceed it) in many of its qualities. Because the ingredients of the gelfoam give even more durability to the polyfoam in addition to the viscous qualities … it would be fair to say that the gelfoam is at least as durable as HR 3 lb polyfoam and would not be comparable in durability terms to 3 lb memory foam made in the traditional way. The testing results of the material seems to bear this out which means that real life results will likely show this increased durability as well.
Of course as time goes on and I learn through both my own research and the experiences of others what this will translate into in “real life” … these opinions may change, but for now I would compare the new gelfoams (not the particle infused versions or the gel layers fabricated into conventional memory foam) as being more comparable with HR polyfoam in terms of durability except it may even be an improvement on this as well.
The bottom line for now? This material has viscoelastic qualities like memory foam, is less temperature sensitive (hardens less with cold temperatures), but has durability comparable to (or perhaps even better than) HR polyurethane.
Once I have a little more familiarity with the material in terms of research and feedback … I will likely include it as a legitimate new category of foam (similar to buckling column which is also gel based) on the main site.
Thanks for your feedback as well on how this material feels and I’m looking forward to more updates as you (and others) have a chance to sleep on it over time
Well, Dino, what do you think of the gel mattress?? I FINALLY went to the store today, but unfortunately, Tim was not there. I’ll do a post later on my experience–gel one you got is on short list of 2. The all-Latex was not, which I did not expect…
FWIW, either you had the layer spec wrong or Tim changed the design on the MiComfort gel mattress–there is actually another layer of bended latex–top to bottom layering:
They actually had a cross section sample in the store that confirmed the layering. The spec on the foams in the comfort layers was per a salesperson in the store–Tim was not in yesterday to field more detailed questions.
This appears to be a hot item in the store–they ran out of material and had about a half dozen orders in the queue.
OK–here we go on my experience and observations on Quality Sleep Shop (Lagrange location):
Small place, with a very modest showroom and a giant window to watch the mattresses being built (the web page photos must be Brookfield location–this shop is far less “fancy”.) The very nice sales lady gave us a tour of the factory, which was basically a couple assembly stations. It was nice to be able to see a mattress being built, and surprising how fast an experienced technician can make one. Overall, I liked the place a lot and would definitely send my friends there even with the hour drive. No hard sell at all, and when we took a break to go a couple blocks down the street for lunch (Kenny’s bar has good corned beef and tater tots…), she just offered us a business card thinking we were done shopping–no sales pressure is high in my book of needs. I decided that they had a wide range of products that seemed to be a good quality/price ratio and this would be the source for my new mattress.
On to the products:
Latex mattress: I made a bee-line for the latex, thinking this was what I was going to “want”. It seemed a little soft to both the wife and I, but I tried to discount that as Tim could probably modify it to be a little firmer. Neither one of us liked the “springy-ness” of it for lack of a better word. (I did come back to the latex in between the other mattresses to do an A/B again)
MiComfort Gel: Tried this one next since Dino was high on it and selected for purchase. I liked it. The foam recovered pretty quickly, and I did not have that sinking in and rolling out of a hole feeling of the Tempur-Pedics we had layed on a few months back. I liked it a little more than the wife, but she said it was something she felt would be “OK” to her.
“Traditional” mattresses: We tried all of the better quality offerings in the store, and liked the Emily best. (http://www.qualitysleepshop.com/emily/) We both liked the feel of the single-sided model the best, but the idea of the two-sided for longer service life. It was surprising how much different the mattresses felt–did not expect the two-sider to soften up the feel as much as it did. Had Tim been there, I would have asked if the two-sider could be modified in the comfort layers to firm up to the feel of the one-sider. Another question I would have asked is whether it made sense to upgrade the top comfort layer from 1" Ultra Premium Foam to Latex for durability–does that even make sense?
Bottom line: The wife was drawn to the “feel” of the traditional innerspring style mattress, the Emily in particular. I was torn between this and the new gel mattress. Really want to pull the trigger, but thought best to mull it over before deciding. I think either choice would be a huge improvement over my broken down Stearns and Foster.
