First off, I would like to say how incredibly helpful this site is in learning about mattresses and finding a short list of suppliers for a new bed. I have spent over 12 hours the last 2 days perusing the posts–tremendous resource and invaluable. (I would have made a bad choice if not for studying the material on this site–fell for the Saavta ads online initially but could not get basic questions answered after several emails–eliminated them from consideration along with a few others after my “study” on your forum)
I did not find any nearby factory outlet type places for latex or any other types for that matter. Did see the suggestion for Holder in Lafayette, but that is 100 miles away and I am leaning toward a quality latex mattress after what was read here and my 2 visits to the local “sleep store” (Bedding Experts) with the wife to lay on a variety of types. I will not elaborate, but will never go back to that store after getting some inconsistent information and refusal to provide construction details on particular products. Nuff said.
Am I missing any factory direct type manufacturers in my area?
Given that I have found no good local sources, I have narrowed down my short list from forum recommendations to these products (initially was going to try a memory foam style but the wife did not like that it took too long to spring back):
Custom Sleep Design(Admin Note: Company changed name to Custom Sleep Technology)
“_ttps://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-8500.htm” (Admin Note: Discontinued/Removed product)
“_ttps://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-10000.htm” (Admin Note: Discontinued/Removed product)
“_ttps://www.foamorder.com/latex.php” (the “Pick Your Layers” option seems similar to the others above) (Admin Note: Discontinued/Removed product)
I am replacing a 7 year old firm Stearns and Foster that was not a cheap bed at the time. It actually should have been replaced several years ago–my back has hurt BAD every night for longer than I want to admit.
I am more of a side sleeper, if that includes kind of half side/half stomach with one leg pulled up high into chest and leaning toward bed–the way I seem to get comfortable at least trying to go to sleep. My wife says she is an equal parts side/back/stomach sleeper, but I think she is a side/back more so from my observation. I am 6-2 and under 200 pounds and the wife is 5’ and medium build if that helps with selecting a firmness level.
Based on this, any comments on the suitability of the short list above would be welcomed. I focused on the beds that could be exchanged or fine-tuned since I do not have a solid working spec in the absence of trying specific products in person. I did not like the particular Sealy foam mattress at the Bedding Experts (it was a low end model and too firm) but did like the general feel of the style. They “pointed” me toward the Tempurpedic when I asked about non innerspring options–not sure why they carried no premium latex beds.
EDIT: Just realized I failed to note that my mattress size is king. Also, FWIW, I would likely have purchased on of these three choices if not for finding this forum:
Hi, I am also in NW Indiana. I am also in the process of looking for a mattress. I went to My Green Mattress
The owner Tim is a real nice guy, and a member of this site. His website does not show all the different beds he has, so you might want to take a drive to his store, or call him.
Thanks, Dino. Actually, that was on and off my short list, but decided to focus on a split layer that could accommodate both my wife and myself given the different body types, sleep patterns, and comfort preferences. You are right—I probably should go see Tim. Maybe he has what I am looking for and he does get the forum recommendation as a good seller. Now that I looked closer at his web site it appears he manufactures all his own beds.
I probably should have mentioned that I knew about mygreenmattress before asking about local sources since he is close enough to be considered a local supplier.
quote=“Dino” post=1621 Hi, I am also in NW Indiana. I am also in the process of looking for a mattress. I went to My Green Mattress
The owner Tim is a real nice guy, and a member of this site. His website does not show all the different beds he has, so you might want to take a drive to his store, or call him.
Dino
For others that may have interest in this supplier, I found the web site for Tim’s other store location that shows more of the range of his products which includes a number of innerspring types (that they appear to also manufacture locally):
I would certainly pay a visit to Tim at My Green Mattress if at all possible. He is a very soft spoken (no pressure) good guy, very knowledgeable, and they make some very high quality and value mattresses. The My Green Mattress site is their more “natural” outlet that focuses more on latex (including two sided) but they are a sister company to Quality Sleep Shop which makes a wide range of mattresses. While I don’t know for certain (I never asked him) it would be worth while asking him if he can do “split layering” even though they don’t mention it on their site.
I would personally prefer to purchase a mattress that I have actually laid down on if the value and quality is there. Online purchasing options are great (especially from an outlet that has the knowledge and desire to really help you make the best decisions) and are a great opportunity for anyone to buy a great mattress even if there is not a high value manufacturer nearby, but if there is … that would be my first choice if possible.
I think all the online outlets you mentioned are very good even though they are somewhat different in their choices. Custom Sleep Design is a more premium outlet with higher prices because they make their mattresses with a unique zoning system which is custom fitted and zoned for each person and couple. It is exceptionally “accurate” and I believe the most individually and highly customized mattress you can find anywhere but certainly not the lowest cost. Mattresses.net (Arizona Premium Mattress) and SleepEz both have exceptional value, choices, knowledge, and service. Foamorder is also a good quality outlet and offers a wider range of materials (latex, memory foam, and polyfoam) for those who are not focused as much on latex. Their Natural Sense latex is good quality Dunlop.
Some other local manufacturers that may be somewhat near you just for reference (within about 60 miles or so depending on exactly where you are in NW Indiana) include …
_ttp://www.thebedcrafters.com/ (Admin Note: This company went out of business its domain name was taken by a UK company)
In terms of a firmness level … I would tend towards slightly thinner and/or firmer comfort layers than pure side sleepers (which would typically have comfort layers in the 3-4" range) to help with spinal alignment in your other sleeping positions. “Average” firmness in a latex comfort layer would be in the range of about 19 - 24 ILD with heavier people choosing the upper end of this range (or slightly higher) and lighter people using the lower end of this range (or slightly lower). Support cores are also typically firmer for heavier people and less firm for lighter people but again each person’s testing for pressure relief and alignment is more important than fitting into an “average”. This would typically mean in the range of a 2-3" comfort layer as a starting point but since you have local manufacturers near you and because I believe that personal advice with you lying on a mattress in a showroom is more accurate than “theory at a distance” … I would follow the advice of someone who has the knowledge and skill to help you and puts your interest and needs over their profit (which is certainly the case with Tim and the other members of this site). If you have any specific questions that come from testing mattresses or if you need a confirming “voice” for what you are being told then certainly feel free to post them here.
I think that your “short list” choices are good ones (with the exception that it didn’t include MGM) and certainly better than at least 2 of the 3 outlets you were looking at previously. I’m not familiar with charlesprogers though so even though it seems like they are manufacturing mainly lower budget polyfoam mattresses … they do look like they are at least using good construction methods (like inner tufting) so I’ll have to call them to see what quality materials they are using in their mattresses and the selection they have available. They are certainly making some nice looking beds. Thanks for the lead
Hope this helps
Phoenix
PS: I just saw that you already found the sister site for MGM while I was writing this
Lots of good advice and information to digest here–thanks!!!
I was SOOOO discouraged and aggravated after going to the local chain bedding store (innerspring bed I liked the best was price tagged for something like $7000 list price but on sale for over $3000 but seemed VERY similar spec to the Costco model for $1399–hard to not be cynical when they refused to even answer my question of how they differed), my plan was to just do the best I could from a reputable mail order supplier and hope for the best. Did not realize there were this many good independents left and had not discovered any in my general area until coming across this forum. Thankfully, I realized Bedding Experts offerings were way over priced and delayed the purchase. Frankly, I expected more of the same at the big department stores and decided it was not even worth a visit.
That said, I will likely not only visit Tim as suggested, but probably the other two you suggested if time permits. Tim’s place is 50 miles from me, but definitely worth the drive.
I’m sure there will be questions after I have time to digest this and get my pre-purchase checklist ready for the shopping trip. If nothing else, I’ll provide some feedback and shopping experience after my mattress shopping adventure. This mattress journey is actually kind of fun once one is armed with a little knowledge…and my back will thank me for it…
I stopped by my green mattress again today. Unfortunately Tim wasn’t there.
His latex mattresses on his web site that had a blended latex core, is now pocket coils. He is using a 3" Talalay separate topper that sits on top the pocket coils.
He still has the 3 layer all Talalay mattresses. He had 3 different floor models, all of these can be flipped.
all medium
medium, firm, medium
all firm (as far as the salesperson knew).
Also on his website he shows the Emily as being a crib mattress, but he makes this in all sizes. The queen he had there was 2" of Talalay top and bottom and I believe springs in the middle.
He also has some memory foam(one with gel) and some other mattresses that were not Latex that I didnt really look at.
Now I am stuck with a dilemma because my wife liked the memory foam mattress with gel he has. I admit it was comfortable, and cheaper which I liked, but my mind was focused on Latex.
One cool thing is there is a big window at the back of the store where you can watch them working on their mattresses.
Thanks a lot for your feedback and for your descriptions of what he has available now. This is great as I know there are many people who like the feel of a latex over pocket coil hybrid and it’s great that he has it available.
I feel for you here :). My only comment would be to bear in mind that memory foam is usually not as durable as latex and will soften more in the early stages from its showroom feel than latex (unless the model on the showroom floor already has). Did you happen to ask if they can do split layering just in case soft latex would work as well for her as memory foam.
At least its great to have good choices rather than having to choose between mattresses that are not so good.
Thanks for the feedback and information and I’m looking forward to hearing about what you end up with.
It appears Tim makes two model lines with an innerspring core and latex comfort layers–the Emily you mentioned and the Nicole. His sister web site (http://www.qualitysleepshop.com/) has descriptions of the non full latex models–I was assuming from his email to me that those were also on display at the La Grange location you visited–Tim me that was the place to go for the widest selection of his products. The Nicole looked similar to the Emily but had a non-pillowtop or pillowtop model. Interesting that one of his web sites shows Emily as a two layer latex with no mention of innerspring core and the other shows it as a pillowtop 5 zone spring/latex mattress.
My wife is still not completely sold on a “foam” mattress, so was hoping to at least check out the Nicole as a hybrid choice.
FWIW, I spent some time perusing the web site for both of these local manufacturers to make an informed decision (educated guess?) on which to add to the shopping trip, thinking maybe to just add one to the MGM location visit given none are exactly close to me. The thing that really caught my eye with Bedcrafters vs. Verlo was the Bedcrafters guarantee:
Bedcrafters: Lifetime comfort guarantee
If for any reason you are not comfortable on your mattress set during the entire life span of its guarantee we will rebuild it to your liking. materials and transportation are additional Because your comfort is our main goal there is no limit to how many times we will rebuild it.
Verlo: Their guarantee page was LOOONNGGG but this one part caught my eye:
Guarantee does not cover items such as, but not limited to:
Body impressions less than 1 1/2" deep
That sounds like the typical 4 S industry standard baloney. I have a bed now that is nowhere near 1.5" depression…until you LAY on it…then it is a crater…any bed is shot well before 1.5" deep holes form IMHO…
In fairness to Verlo, they also have a separate comfort guarantee, but with less generous terms ((1) Guarantee Coverage is Pro-rated (6) Transportation, parts and labor costs may apply. ) Maybe I will ask them what determines the “may apply” part…
Custom Sleep Design is a more premium outlet with higher prices because they make their mattresses with a unique zoning system which is custom fitted and zoned for each person and couple. It is exceptionally “accurate” and I believe the most individually and highly customized mattress you can find anywhere but certainly not the lowest cost.
If you have any specific questions that come from testing mattresses or if you need a confirming “voice” for what you are being told then certainly feel free to post them here.
Custom Sleep shop: Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that it is VERY difficult to pick ANY mattress based on a lying on it for a few minutes in a store? Sure, one can eliminate ones that are clearly uncomfortable, but won’t it take a least a few nights sleeping on a mattress to know if it is “right”? Does this customized “fitting” have a much higher probability of being spot on vs a quick test at a store? How much of a premium is one paying for the customization? Is the science on this developed enough to formula spec a custom solution based on personal body variables? Clearly, there is a value added if one reduces the probability of having to do an exchange, and even a modest improvement in sleep quality has considerable value, not to mention the time and cost of driving to even a couple places vs. taking a series of body measurements, ordering online, and having delivered to the door. I would pay just about any reasonable and fair price at this point to get a good night’s sleep…but still expect value. I am a quality and value guy, but have found that rarely is the most expensive product the best value.
Other questions: From what I have read, an all quality material latex layers mattress is the ultimate in comfort and durability if properly “tuned” to a given person? Memory and poly foam or springs components are a cost reducing compromise in general? It seems the comfort layers are the most critical and subject to wear over time. What is the value “sweet spot”? If a latex mattress is twice the cost but feels like new for twice as long as a lesser mattress, it is a value.
quote=“Phoenix” post=1628If you have any specific questions that come from testing mattresses or if you need a confirming “voice” for what you are being told then certainly feel free to post them here.
If I was a mattress expert, what would my reaction be to this coil technology statement? Hype or with merit? (I searched the forum on active, reverse, and helical coils and did not find anything to answer this question) If marketing hype, would a statement like this be a red flag in general?
“after extensive research and development, we use the most state of the art coil system known to mankind. The Double Offset ACTIVE reverse coil with head to toe helical lacing is an active rather than reactive coil system. What this means to you is that the coil is already working without you having to push down to get support. This eliminates set points (coil fatigue). The Head to toe helical lacing eliminates transfer of motion across the bed and between partners. Every other coil alternates clockwise and counterclockwise, keeping the integrity of the coil system for a long time by eliminating twisting within the system.”
Since talking to Tim, I haven’t felt the need to travel any further. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and carries quality materials that I can test.
When asking him about his memory foam today on the phone, which he says comes from the Carpenter Company in Elkhart Indiana, he told me he will be getting the new gel foam in January. He sounded exicted about this new product, which he thinks he should have by the 10th, so i may just have to wait to check it out.
In a typical store environment it is very difficult IMO to pick out a mattress correctly. There are several reasons for this. The first is that very few people really know what they are testing for when they are lying on a mattress and simply look for what “feels good” rather than specifically testing for pressure relief and alignment. This is aggravated by many chain stores or mattress salespeople who really don’t have the knowledge and skill to fit a mattress to a person and tend to encourage buying a mattress based on an initial feel or based on stories or various sales techniques that creates a more “managed” environment where stories become more important and the consumer becomes more and more confused. They have little knowledge of mattress construction and materials and tend to focus their customers on coil counts, brand names, and other justifications for “stepping up” their customers to a higher priced mattress under the assumption that they are better and more suitable.
The other side to this coin is that there is a lot of evidence that a consumer that actually knows what they are testing for and spends at least 15 minutes on each mattress they are considering and testing specifically for pressure relief and alignment, increases their odds dramatically in making good choices that will match their long term needs. If this mattress testing is with the help of a mattress manufacturer or someone who truly has the knowledge to know “why” a particular mattress may not be working and which mattress may be more suitable because of how it is built (rather than because of how much it costs) and why it may be more suitable for a particular individual’s weight, body profile, sleeping positions, and preferences, then your odds increase even more. IMO … spending your time at an outlet who really does know their stuff and who puts your own interests above their desire to increase their profit margin is one of the most important parts of mattress shopping.
Custom sleep Design has a very sophisticated system of zoning that is actually fitted to each persons measurements and other factors that are unique to each individual. They have also developed an “algorithm” which has proven to be exceptionally accurate (along with judgement of course) based on hundreds of customers experiences and feedback and is continuously being refined. They also offer layer exchanges after the fact which includes the ability to change the zoning (parts of a layer) as well as the layers themselves which can make refinements after the purchase if this is necessary.
Their mattresses are certainly more expensive than mattresses that use the same material (Talalay latex) from other local manufacturers who have more “basic” layering approaches (which can also be very successful) as it involves custom cutting each layer and using different ILD’s of foam in each layer to create the custom zoning and this is also done (if needed) for each side of the mattress (for couples).
In my many hundreds of hours of research (which is still ongoing) into mattress manufacturers, I have of course come across many which also offer premium mattresses but on closer examination what many are producing didn’t IMO justify their price as they were too similar to other mattresses made by other manufacturers who were charging much less for “similar” materials and construction. In cases like this … while I still list them in the various lists of local manufacturers that I post for people on the forum (so they can make up their own minds) … I don’t invite them to become members of this site because I don’t believe they have the value that justifies their price.
I did however invite Custom Sleep Design (Note added later: since 2020 they are called Custom Sleep Technology) to become a member because they offer something that is unique and valuable for those who are looking for a personally designed and highly customized mattress that can be purchased locally or online and are in the market for a more “premium” mattress that legitimately has what I would call good value and where the odds of “getting it right” are greater than the norm.
There are many manufacturers and mattresses that are in the higher budget ranges (some much higher than Custom Sleep) that are exceptional quality but that I would have great difficulty inviting as a member because I just don’t believe that their mattresses justify the cost. Custom Sleep is one of the exceptions. While the components that make up “value” are of course unique to each person, they are certainly in the same “value” range as the other manufacturers who are members here and that I believe are among what I call the “best of the best”.
I would say this is certainly true of polyfoam even though in certain grades and with the use of certain construction methods polyfoam can make a very good mattress in a lower budget range. The problem is that you will rarely see these grades or construction methods outside of local manufacturers. Latex is certainly the most durable foam and it also has qualities (point elasticity, resilience, breathability, pressure relief, sag factor, and others) that make it an ideal mattress material. Polyfoam in the right grade and from the right source can make a good lower cost option with good value but it is usually best to stay away from it … especially in the comfort layers … in mainstream mattresses where what you are buying is either lower quality foam or unknown foam.
Memory foam is a little different. While it is true that it is not as expensive a material as high quality latex and it has several disadvantages in comparison to latex … it also has a unique feel which some people like a lot. It is not as popular among many manufacturers who well know that it doesn’t necessarily live up to all the “hype” that surrounds it and are also more aware that it is less durable than latex and not necessarily even more pressure relieving … but in it’s higher quality versions it can be a good choice for those who are especially attracted to its unique feel and who believe that its “negatives” are a worthwhile tradeoff for the qualities and feel they like. There are also many who like a hybrid layering in the comfort layers which mixes a layer of memory foam with latex.
I should also mention that there is a lot of research into polyfoam and memory foam and they are making incremental progress over time but not as much as some of the stories would have you believe … at least not yet.
Innersprings are also a lower cost material than a latex core but there are also some who prefer its more lively feel over a foam core and for those an innerspring can make a good choice … and a less expensive one. Pocket coils or good quality offset coils with a latex comfort layer on one (or preferably both) sides are a very good choice for many. Most good quality innersprings made today are very durable and it is the polyfoam layers above them which are the weak link of many mattresses. You are right that the comfort layers are the part of a mattress which suffers the most mechanical stress and is the most subject to breakdown and the place where it is most important to use more durable materials.
I personally agree with you that because a latex mattress can last so long … and also because it is a unique material that can offer both pressure relief and support (rather than mostly one or the other like innersprings or memory foam) that it is very valuable in building a mattress that can adjust itself and react to many different circumstances, weights, and sleeping positions. This makes it among the best quality and value materials that can be used and the price of a good latex mattress (or latex hybrid) from a good quality and value manufacturer is well worth it IMO.
The thing that really caught my eye with Bedcrafters vs. Verlo was the Bedcrafters guarantee:
Bedcrafters: Lifetime comfort guarantee
If for any reason you are not comfortable on your mattress set during the entire life span of its guarantee we will rebuild it to your liking. materials and transportation are additional Because your comfort is our main goal there is no limit to how many times we will rebuild it.
Verlo: Their guarantee page was LOOONNGGG but this one part caught my eye:
Guarantee does not cover items such as, but not limited to:[/quote]
Body impressions less than 1 1/2" deep
That sounds like the typical 4 S industry standard baloney. I have a bed now that is nowhere near 1.5" depression…until you LAY on it…then it is a crater…any bed is shot well before 1.5" deep holes form IMHO…
You’re right about this and 1.5" is the “standard” industry warranty exclusion (and is only one of the issues that keeps them from paying out on most warranty claims). Warranties in most cases are a sales tool much more than consumer protection and any real manufacturing defects that are covered will usually show up very early. They are there to cater to consumer belief that longer warranties mean better mattresses and this “cultivated” belief becomes a major sales technique to “step up” customers to a higher priced mattress in many mainstream outlets. The best protection from foam softening and impressions is knowing the materials and the type of construction used in a mattress. It also helps to have a manufacturer who is more inclined to keep a local customer happy if there are “borderline” claims than a manufacturer or outlet who will do whatever they can to deny their warranty claims. The “normal” exclusion for good quality memory foam and latex is .75". Memory foam will soften … sometimes to a point where it really isn’t suitable for sleeping on … but will still be within the impression exclusion. Latex will only soften much more gradually over a longer period of time and softening and impressions are much less of an issue.
Verlo is a regional factory direct manufacturer and one of several (such as Original mattress factory and Denver mattress) that are more widespread. They are a franchise group of independently owned outlets which is owned by Vymac which also owns several other brands. They are better value than most mainstream outlets and offer better quality materials and service many areas where there are no other manufacturers but smaller local manufacturers are often better value yet.
I’m not as familiar with Bedcrafters and they are one of many that I have yet to have a few more in depth conversations with.
In fairness to Verlo, they also have a separate comfort guarantee, but with less generous terms ((1) Guarantee Coverage is Pro-rated (6) Transportation, parts and labor costs may apply. ) Maybe I will ask them what determines the “may apply” part…
I like Bedcrafters guarantee. A lot.
There are many local manufacturers who will rebuild a mattress for you at a “less than market” price but I have to agree that Bedcrafters are certainly making this an attractive part of their value in that they don’t charge for their labor for the service (although you do have to get the mattress to them and pay for the materials they use). This would be similar to having a layered mattress with a zip cover where a layer could be exchanged if someone’s needs were to change down the road.
I think they are smart to both offer this and promote it the way they do.
If I was a mattress expert, what would my reaction be to this coil technology statement? Hype or with merit? (I searched the forum on active, reverse, and helical coils and did not find anything to answer this question) If marketing hype, would a statement like this be a red flag in general?
“after extensive research and development, we use the most state of the art coil system known to mankind. The Double Offset ACTIVE reverse coil with head to toe helical lacing is an active rather than reactive coil system. What this means to you is that the coil is already working without you having to push down to get support. This eliminates set points (coil fatigue). The Head to toe helical lacing eliminates transfer of motion across the bed and between partners. Every other coil alternates clockwise and counterclockwise, keeping the integrity of the coil system for a long time by eliminating twisting within the system.”
There is some misinformation on this page (Admin Note: This company went out of business its domain name was taken by a UK company)_ttp://thebedcrafters.com/coilsystems.html concerning both this coil and other types of coils which is designed to make people lean towards the coils they are using. The active coil system is based on the description from the supplier here VertiCoil® Edge - L&P Bedding Group which is where most manufacturers get their innersprings. Double offset means that the upper part of the coil has a squared head (instead of round) on each side which is attached to the coils beside it with a helical wire to create a hinging effect. The idea is that the hinge between each coil will react to lighter parts of the body (to aid in pressure relief) while the coil itself will support the heavier parts of the body. There is more information about coils including a good video here.
There is a near infinite variety of offset coil designs each with its own story attached. Offset coils are somewhere between pocket coils (which unlike the description on their page are usually tempered) and Bonnell coils in their ability to conform. They are also in between the two in their “support” although there are many variations in each type of coil. Pocket coils (or Marshall coils) don’t have helicals so they can compress independently of the coils beside them which is why they are more conforming. Helicals can go side to side (in most Bonnell coils) which creates more motion transfer between sleepers on the mattress. In offset designs the helicals are usually head to toe so the motion transfer is less.
So the “translation” of this means it is a “hinged” or offset coil that can flex to shape itself to body contours and has the strength to hold up the heavier parts of the body. The helicals run head to to toe and each row of coils alternates in the direction of its turns to help with motion transfer. The claims made have some truth but are exaggerated in order to create the perception that these are “the best coils in the world”. The design or type of coil works together with the other specs of an innerspring and with the other layers of a mattress as a whole and in the end creates the pressure relief, alignment, and preferences that make a mattress “the best” for any individual. You will get many arguments even among manufacturers about which is the “best” innerspring (which translates to “their favorite”) and the reasons why each of them believes what they do.
So in this case I’d have to say mostly hype based on some exaggeration and downplaying other types of coil to create the perception that the coils they are using are the “best”.
Since we were talking about Bedcrafters, I thought I’d take the chance to talk with them this morning and find out more about what they were making and the materials and types of construction they were using.
Their number is out of service so I guess it’s a moot point. I’ll list them as out of business in my database. They are (sadly) probably another casualty of the current environment and recent industry trends including some of the more onerous regulations that made life more difficult for many smaller local factory direct manufacturers or even some of the larger ones such as one of the more recent “casualties” here.
Your comment “Latex will only soften much more gradually over a longer period of time and softening and impressions are much less of an issue.” just reinforces the value of targeting latex construction for longevity. One really would prefer to not have to use a guarantee due to early degradation of the mattress performance. How long should one expect a quality latex to last before there is a noticeable change in the feel? My S&F felt “like new” for a pretty short time from my recollection–maybe a couple years? Memory is fuzzy on things like this…it is a continuous and gradual change…
The 1.5" standard is a joke. I took the trouble to put a string across mine, and while you could subtly see the depressions, it was more like .5"…until you laid on it… Even my fat cat is down in a noticeable hole when he sleeps on it. I did not measure the deflection under load, but it is probably 3 times the amount of when I lay on the middle that is not broken down, still being supportive and like sleeping on a ridge.
Given Phoenix has since found out Bedcrafters is no longer in business, combined with the MGM forum approved vendor status, your positive comments, and my emails exchanged with Tim,…well…I’m going to go see Tim and look no further if he has something that meets my needs. I think Custom Sleep would be the next one to consider further if working with Tim does not work out for some reason. I’d like to check out his upcoming gel products, but don’t know if I can wait until January. This current bed is BAD, so probably will go with a current offering unless something changes and my visit is delayed. I have a guest bed that probably needs an upgrade, plus a hide-a-bed, so maybe for round 2 and 3…
