Finally pulled the trigger on a D I Y latex mattress

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
21

Thanks Phoenix! Its nice to have another pair of eyes objectively assess my history. Just to clarify a few of the points that were not clear:

med/med/firm:

I did not have any back pain prior to sleeping on the latex mattress. I believe I had some slight low back pain initially but after about 4 days, the bed felt fine and I did not have any more back symptoms for 1 month. Then after 1 month my low back was gradually hurting in the mornings. I thought it had to be that the layering was too soft as that was always my initial impression of the mattress. In retrospect, after testing several configurations now I know I cannot compare the feel of a latex mattress to an innerspring as they are completely different beasts. This is my first time owning a latex mattress so the feel is much different than anything we have slept on before.

medium/firm/medium:

I lasted a bit longer on this configuration but at the end of 6-8 weeks the low back gradually returned which is why I decided I needed to make changes. The “feel” I did not like was the medium bottom layer as it made the bed feel “squishy” and not solid if that makes any sense. This is when I purchased the Xfirm topper and started down that path of firming up the mattress.

Okay, I have to disclose that I was experimenting with a homemade lanoodle pillow during this time (for about 5 days or so) which may have caused some of the mid back pain. I have a history of chronic neck issues (DDD, buldging disc, etc …) which I wont bore you with the details but finding the “perfect pillow” still eludes me today. I have been using a Z by Malouf low loft firm queen latex pillow exclusively with the latex mattress and it seems to be working okay. My neck pain has been under reasonable control with the new mattress/pillow combo. I will definitely not do any more pillow experimentation until I am sure I have the layers correct :cheer:

In retrospect, I don’t know if adding the xfirm (either to the bottom or middle layer) really helped that much. It changed the “feel” of the bed and made it more solid but whether or not that improved support and alignment is questionable. While I am sleeping a little better now with the xfirm in the 2nd position from what I remember I was more comfortable without the xfirm in the earlier configurations.

We will go back to the med/firm/med and see how that works again. If the low back pain returns then perhaps with can take off the cover to see if that makes a difference.

Again, thanks for helping with the assessment and adding some clarity! Will keep you posted either way.

22

Hi ps9915,

I’m looking forward to your updates :slight_smile:

Phoenix

23

Hi Phoenix,

Since my last post we kept the bed in the configuration of med/xfirm/firm and it started to feel better but not perfect. I still am waking up with low back pain but less than before. I enjoy the firmness of the bed and it feels like it provides great support but ideally would like to have a little more pressure relief and cushion on top.

We tried to take off the wool/cotton quilted cover and sleep directly on the foam with a bed sheet. Neither my wife nor I could tolerate this because the bed was too hot and we could feel all the holes in the latex which was very uncomfortable. If we place the cover back on the bed but do not zip the cover up will this give us a similar feeling as a stretch knit cover? Still trying to determine if switching to a different cover would be worthwhile for us.

Thanks!

24

Hi ps99115,

It’s good to hear that your sleeping experience has improved even though it’s still not “ideal”.

The wool would still affect the feel of the mattress even if the cover is unzipped but it would have less effect on the contouring of the latex underneath it and would probably be somewhat “in between” the feel of a stretch knit cotton cover and a wool quilted cover that was zipped up.

The wool would also provide better temperature regulation and a knit cotton cover would be closer to sleeping directly on the latex in terms of temperature regulation as well.

Phoenix

25

Hi Phoenix,

I may be jumping the gun here, but we unzipped the cover and slept on the mattress last night and it felt great! Softened up the comfort layer and felt the latex a bit more. I still felt that the mattress was slightly on the firm side and woke up with slight low back pain but I will give it some time to see if this goes away. Its possible I may just need another cover to get the feel we are looking for.

Will keep you posted!

26

Hi ps99115,

Sounds promising … and I’m looking forward to your next update :slight_smile:

Phoenix

27

Just an update. Even with the wool cover unzipped the mattress still was too firm in the med/xfirm/firm. I was waking up with low back pain pretty consistently. I think that I could have added a 1 inch soft (22 ILD) topper to the mattress and it would have been better but that would require more expense and more latex.

We finally switched the layers back to med/firm/med and will try that for a while. I really like the feel of the wool cover unzipped so I most likely will try a stretch cotton cover (from sleepEZ) in the near future.

Would a stretch cover give the sense of more support since it contours more or just soften the feel overall?

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

28

Hi ps99115,

It would probably provide more “contouring” support (or what I call secondary support vs primary support) that “fills in” and supports the more recessed parts in your sleeping profile and it would probably also provide a little bit of additional pressure relief as well (again because it will contour to the shape of your sleeping profile and redistribute weight more effectively).

I may have linked these in a previous reply but just in case … there is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.

Happy holidays to you as well :slight_smile:

Phoenix

29

Hi Phoenix,

We switched back to med/firm/med + wool cover zipped for the last week or so. I’m still having low back pain in the AM similar (but not exactly the same possibly less) as when the mattress was firmer. The mattress relieves pressure points a lot better but this stiff back is driving me crazy. Could it be that I have been going the wrong way with the mattress and I need something even softer (EX. med/med/firm)?

Just a side note: I have been using the same pillow (Z Malouf low loft firm talalay) with every configuration of the bed. When I lay on the bed with a lower pillow (or without a pillow), my pelvis seems to sink in less (making the bed seem firmer). I have chronic neck issues so I really don’t want to change the mattress and the pillow at the same time as its just asking for trouble. My mid back and neck feels okay with my current pillow.

Another side note: we stayed with family over the holidays for a few days and slept on a med-firm innerspring mattress. My back felt much better on the innerspring than on our latex mattress :frowning: .

At this point I’m thinking about unzipping the cover to see if more secondary support improves my back pain and stick with med/firm/med. If that does not work I would soften things up by trying med/med/firm with cover unzipped. Keep in mind I tried all these configurations already with the wool cover zipped and all of them caused low back pain.

Getting a little frustrated with the bed. The concept of a latex mattress seems wonderful but I have not been able to get the layering right. Thinking of going back to an innerspring.

Thanks,

30

Hi ps9915,

There really isn’t too much I can add to my previous comments in post #18 and #20 especially.

Based on your previous feedback both the M/M/F and the M/F/M seemed to work fairly well for you at least for a few weeks so it seems that they are fairly close (or perhaps as close as you will be able to get with your current layers) although trying these with the cover unzipped may be worthwhile. It’s also possible that M/M/XF may be “just enough” additional firmness in the deeper layers to prevent the lower back pain from returning but again the only way to know this will be based on your own personal experience.

It’s also possible that you may do better on a fairly thin (say about 2") layer of softer latex which would be more conforming and pressure relieving and may provide better secondary or “contouring” support.

It’s also possible that you may be spending some time in sleeping positions other than your back (most back sleepers also spend some time on their side) and if this is the case then some additional softness in the top layer may also be worthwhile. Of course this would also involve an additional purchase with no guarantee of success.

It’s very common that different layering firmness combinations will need different pillows to keep your head and neck and upper back in good alignment because different firmness configurations will change how much you are sinking into the mattress in different areas of your body. I don’t know how this could affect how much your pelvis is sinking in but using a thinner pillow would put your head lower which may create the perception that your pelvis is higher (relative to your head) … even if it isn’t. As you mentioned though it can be somewhat risky to make several simultaneous changes at the same time because it may be difficult to assess which of the changes led to any changes in your sleeping experience so I would tend to experiment with one incremental change at a time.

[quote]Another side note: we stayed with family over the holidays for a few days and slept on a med-firm innerspring mattress. My back felt much better on the innerspring than on our latex mattress :frowning: .

Getting a little frustrated with the bed. The concept of a latex mattress seems wonderful but I have not been able to get the layering right. Thinking of going back to an innerspring.[/quote]

I would be fairly cautious about making an assessment on another mattress after only a few days because your history indicates that you may sleep well for a few days (or even weeks) and then begin to experience “symptoms” again. Having said that … an innerspring has a different response curve than latex and there are certainly many people that never seem to find a “perfect” latex layering combination that seem to do better with an innerspring support core (often a pocket coil) with latex comfort layers.

I can certainly understand your frustration. In most cases the two or three most common combinations (either the original layering or one or two alternative combinations) work well for “most” people and it would be uncommon to need any additional fine tuning after this but when you are “outside the averages” that would work for most people and after months of trying different combinations there is certainly a point of diminishing returns after that.

While it would certainly be worthwhile trying some of the more “granular” changes that you haven’t tried yet with the layers you have available (such as trying some of your previous combinations that seemed to be “close” with the cover unzipped or M/M/XF) … when you have exhausted all the most likely combinations with 3" layers it’s possible that an “ideal” combination may involve different layer thicknesses or a thinner or softer topper or even zoning. There are also some people that seem to do best on a different support core such as an innerspring even though it may not be possible to identify the “theoretical” reason why (experience always “trumps” theory).

Phoenix

31

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response Phoenix!

If I were to go with a soft 2 " talalay topper would a good starting point for layering be soft/med/firm? Buying another topper would be my last resort but its something I have considered.

Thanks!

32

Hi ps99115,

While the “averages” don’t seem to work out as well for you as I would hope … if you do decide to try some softer latex that’s where I would start yes.

Phoenix

33

Worst case scenario we will have a really nice latex mattress for the guest bedroom :cheer: . Keep my fingers crossed everything works out!

Thanks again!

34

Hi Phoenix,

Finally some good new to report!

We have been sleeping on med/firm/med with the wool cover unzipped for about the past month and it’s fantastic! Meets all of our 3 p’s and no back pain in the morning. I’m planning on ordering a 4 way stretch sleep ez cover to complete the mattress.

I was tempted to try med/med/firm with zipped cover as you suggested. This would save us from buying any more covers. But the bed feels so good now I should not mess with perfection.

Thanks so much again for everything! Looking forward to going to bed!

35

Hi ps99115,

Thanks for the update … and that’s wonderful news :slight_smile:

Phoenix

36

Just a quick update: have been sleeping with med/firm/med encased in the sleepEZ 4 way stretch cover for a couple of months now. I have been fairly happy overall. I wake up with only occasional low back pain which may not be related to the bed. Sometimes I wish the comfort later were a tad bit softer but not a deal breaker. The sleepEZ cover is great and they have been great to work with.

From my DIY adventure, I have an additional 3 inch xfirm blended talalay topper and a cotton/wool sleep ez 10 queen cover. I’m considering buying 6 more inches of latex to build a new mattress for the guest bedroom and to possibly improve upon our current design if needed. For that I was considering three 2 inch toppers for the top 6 inches in the following firmness;

Soft/med/firm/xfirm (3 inch), top three layers are 2 inch.

Would this be significantly softer than our current bed of med/firm/med (all three inch toppers)? I’m assuming the adjustability would be greater with the 2 inch toppers. Is there any disadvantage to having a 2 inch topper as a transition layer versus a 3 inch topper.

Thanks so much!

37

Hi ps99115,

Thanks for taking the time to share another update … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

[quote]From my DIY adventure, I have an additional 3 inch xfirm blended talalay topper and a cotton/wool sleep ez 10 queen cover. I’m considering buying 6 more inches of latex to build a new mattress for the guest bedroom and to possibly improve upon our current design if needed. For that I was considering three 2 inch toppers for the top 6 inches in the following firmness;

Soft/med/firm/xfirm (3 inch), top three layers are 2 inch.

Would this be significantly softer than our current bed of med/firm/med (all three inch toppers)? I’m assuming the adjustability would be greater with the 2 inch toppers. Is there any disadvantage to having a 2 inch topper as a transition layer versus a 3 inch topper.[/quote]

Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

Having said that … I would guess that the layering combination that you are thinking about would feel “noticeably” softer than the combination you are currently sleeping on.

As you mentioned more layers would also give you more options to rearrange layering combinations as well.

All the layers and components of a mattress will compress simultaneously (one doesn’t start compressing when the ones above it are “finished” compressing) but they each compress to a different degree or percentage of their thickness based on their firmness level, thickness, what is above them, and how deep they are inside the mattress. The amount they all compress together will contribute to how much different parts of your body sink in to the mattress and the depth of the pressure relieving cradle which in turn will affect the comfort and pressure relief and the secondary support of the mattress. Softer layers compress more than firmer layers, thicker layers compress more than thinner layers, all layers compress less when there are thicker or firmer layers above them, and upper layers compress more than deeper layers.

Terms such as “comfort layers”, transition layers, and “support layers” are really only generalities and don’t necessarily apply to specific layers or layer thicknesses. For example for some people (depending on body type and sleeping positions) the top 3" of a mattress may provide most of the pressure relief in a mattress even if this doesn’t match the specific thickness of an individual layer. The bottom layer would typically be called a support layer because it will have less of an effect on how the mattress “feels” when you lie on the mattress. The layers (or parts of layers) in between would affect both pressure relief and primary support to different degrees.

There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together.

In other words … which layers are comfort layers, transition layers, or support layers is less important than how the mattress “as a whole” meets your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP.

Phoenix