I have been read reading this blog for several months and learning as much as I can aobut latex mattresses. I wanted to build a DIY latex mattress to save money and the spirit of adventure. After local mattress testing I had my heart set on a Dunlop latex mattress, but I obtained several Dunlop samples from various vendors and found I had a slight sensitivity to something that was the Dunlop. It did not matter the brand of Dunlop, I still had the same reaction. So I decided to build a talalay latex mattress as I had no problems sleeping on talalay pillows for the past few years.
I purchased my talalay toppers from Valerie at Matress247 on ebay - in M/M/F densities. She offers a blended Radium talalay topper at an incredible price. I also had some coupons from ebay so I got an additional discount. I also purchased her wood foundation as well. For the mattress encasement, I purchased an organic cotton/wool cover from SleepEZ. I also have a dust mite allergy and a doctors note recommending I sleep on a latex mattress. So I’m going to submit the receipts to my FSA plan to see if they will cover the cost of the mattress with pre tax dollars.
Overall I would highly recommend doing business with Valerie at mattress 247. She was extremely helpful and knowledgeable and her prices were great. I also want to give a big thanks to Sean at SleepEZ, and Mario and Jacob from Brooklyn Bedding as they were all very helpful and shared great information as well. A big thanks to Phoenix for this wonderful website and his generosity his time and information.
I have not assembled the mattress yet as we are in the process of moving its better to keep the mattress boxed up until we move. But I should have the mattress assembled in the next month. It will keep everyone updated on the mattress once we have slept on it for some time.
Thanks for your comments and feedback about Val and Mattresses 24/7 and the other manufacturers you mentioned as well … I appreciate it.
You certainly made some good quality/value component purchases and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve had the chance to sleep on them.
I’ll also be very interested in what your FSA says about claiming the cost of your mattress as well.
Most importantly … congratulations on your new mattress
I wanted to give a quick update on our latex mattress since we’ve been sleeping on it for the past six months.
Talalay latex toppers from Mattess247 were good quality, no rips or tears … etc. Two of the toppers had the same print on the side (likely from the same batch) and one had a different print. The wood foundation was easy to assemble and the organic cotton cover matched the organic cotton/wool cover from sleep EZ.(which was a nice surprise given they were from two different retailers).
We first started off sleeping on the med/med/firm configuration which felt much softer than our old innerspring mattress… We tried this configuration for about 1 month, it started to feel better (i.e. no more low back pain), but then around month 2 the LBP came back again likely because the foam softened a bit and the mattress cover stretched out slightly.
We then moved the firm layer up one level (med/firm/med) which definitely firmed things up and feels better. We have been sleeping on this configuration for about 6-8 weeks now At times I want a slightly different feel so I am interested in fine tuning the mattress more.
Is there any sense in placing a firm later on the bottom of the mattress (med/firm/firm)? I understand that the bottom layer of a mattress is just a filler and won’t change the feel of the I was thinking of adding a firm or xfirm Dunop layer in the second position, would this change things much? I have a chemical sensitivity to Dunlop (not Talalay) so I am hoping I can tolerate a Dunlop topper as long as I am not sleeping directly on it.
The cotton/wool mattress cover from sleepEZ has developed some bunching (right under my lower back) which is some what annoying, but I contacted sleep EZ and they said this was normal of their covers. The even offered for me to mail the cover back and they would tighten up the cover at no charge. Very generous of them! Perhaps another thought is trying a different mattress encasement, maybe a 4 way stretch cover for different feel. When I did local mattress testing I did not mind the feel of the PLB stretch covers, I just liked the cotton/wool quilted covers more.
Another thought is if I keep my current configuration (med/firm/med) Talalay, I essentially have a two sided reversible mattress and can flip the layers around down the road for added longevity.
Trying to get my FSA account to cover the mattress has been a nightmare. They are not accepting the receipts from ebay and want my PCP to fill out more paperwork. I just gave up.
Please let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance!
I think that calling the bottom layer “filler” is greatly overstating things because if you removed it completely it would make a significant difference in the feel and response of the mattress and it would be much less adaptable to your body shape and it would firm up much more quickly as you sank into it more deeply.
Replacing the bottom layer with a firm layer would make less difference than changing the medium layer in the middle to a firm but how much of a difference it would make for a particular person would depend on their sensitivity to smaller changes. Some people would certainly notice a difference and some people may not notice much difference at all.
Adding a firmer Dunlop layer in between your two medium Talalay layers would probably also make a noticeable difference but I’m not so sure I would put a Dunlop layer in between two Talalay layers because of the differences in how they each feel and respond to pressure and movement and having a more resilient layer on each side of a less resilient or lively Dunlop layer may feel somewhat “odd”. While I don’t have any personal experience sleeping with this combination of layering … and like any combination of layers it may be something that some people would like … if I was using Dunlop I would tend to use it underneath Talalay layers rather than in between them. I think it would be fair to say that you would probably notice a difference though.
This would really be a preference issue but there is more about the pros and cons of a wool quilted cover vs a thinner stretch knit cover in post #6 here. The PLB mattresses have a very thick fire barrier which would also affect the feel of the latex underneath it so it may not be the best example of the “feel” of a stretch knit cover with a thinner fire barrier.
Exchanging the two medium layers from time to time could certainly extend their useful life to some degree but I would personally prioritize comfort and PPP so I would only do this if your current configuration was the best possible layering combination for you.
I almost wonder if the medium layer on the bottom is possibly causing some problems for me. It seems like the top comfort layer is firm enough to provide support, but I get a feeling of shifting and "tilting"while I’m in the mattress. Will adding a firm base layer create a more stable base to sleep on? What if I were to go with a firm Dunlop layer on the very bottom of the mattress and keep the two top Talalay layers of medium and firm?
In “theory” it could make some difference yes but the only way to know whether it would make a difference for you or how much of a difference it would make will be based on your own personal experience.
One last quick question, is there a difference in getting a firm or extra firm topper for the bottom level if I were to keep it in the third position? I know if I would move to the second level this would make a major difference. Thanks!
My reply would be the same as the last one. While relatively small differences in the firmness of a bottom layer of a mattress will have less effect than the same differences in layers that are closer to the sleeping surface … some people would feel a a noticeable difference and some wouldn’t notice much if any difference depending on the actual firmness of the layers, their body type, their sleeping style, and their individual sensitivity to smaller differences in the design of a mattress. The only way to know whether you would feel a difference or how much of a difference you would feel is based on your own personal testing and experience.
Just wanted to give a quick update: I purchased an extra firm (44-46 ild) 6 inch extra long twin core by latex international from mattresses.net. I had one side of the core trimmed so that the topper would measure 30 x 80". Once I received the core, I brought it to a local foam factory and had the core split into two 3 inch toppers. We placed the new extra firm toppers on the bottom of our mattress resulting in a configuration of medium\firm\X firm.
We’ve been sleeping on the new mattress now for about 4 to 5 days, but so far so good. The mattress density feels great and adding the extra firm toppers to the bottom of the mattress definitely made a difference in feel for us. It was actually less expensive for us to buy a 6 inch core have it cut then to buy a solid 3 inch queen topper. Our mattress does have layers of radium and latex international mixed but overall we like the feel.
Mattresses.net was an absolute pleasure to deal with. Their prices on the latex Core were excellent and they were generous with the mattress underground discount. My only regret is that I did not buy my entire mattress and bedding components from them.
Will keep you guys posted if anything changes, but as of now we are happy latex mattress owners
Unfortunately, I have been having issues with our latex mattress for the past few weeks. Specifically, low back pain as well as mid back pain as well upon waking. We are sleeping on the configuration of med/firm/Xfirm blended talalay (all 3 inch layers).
I don’t wake up in the middle of the night with back pain but I wake up in the morning with pain and the bed just does not feel good when I lay down in it at night. It feels like my hip and low back area sinks in too much, almost like a trampoline. Granted I have been doing a lot of manual labor projects around the house and taking care of our 13 month old (23 lb) son which may be contributing to my back pain. But its just frustrating not to get relief from our bed. I have a neck issues which is likely causing some of the mid back issues, but have never had an issue with low back pain in the past.
We currently have 4 three inch latex toppers: two mediums, a firm, an x firm for a 9 inch mattress (Spirit of adventure I keep telling myself :lol: ).
My next thoughts of adjusting are to firm up the bed more by moving the x-firm layer to the middle (med/xfirm/firm) but I am really surprised that we would need a bed this firm because we were told by multiple dealers that med/med/firm should be an appropriate configuration for us (med/med/firm config felt okay for a couple of months and the felt too soft).
Our old Stearns and Fosters innerspring (which is supposed to be a medium firm) feels firmer and more supportive than our latex mattress.
Is it possible that the medium is too soft of a comfort layer for us? Perhaps we can try a firm topper as a comfort layer. Do you have any other thoughts? We really don’t want to buy any more toppers as we have spent too much already.
While it’s not possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because there are too many unique unknowns, variables, and complexities involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or any “symptoms” they experience … there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can identify the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing (at least to the degree that any symptoms are from your mattress rather than the result of any other circumstances or pre-existing issues you may have that aren’t connected to a mattress).
It’s certainly possible that your “symptoms” are coming from some of the other activities that you mentioned but it’s also possible that it could be coming from the mattress as well. The “feeling” that you are sinking in too much or that it “feels like” a trampoline are somewhat subjective (like anything that is described as it “feels like”). They could be “pointing to” layers being too soft for you or they could also be from the natural point elasticity (the ability to contour to the shape of your body) and “feel” of latex (which is a very resilient and “springy” material).
The first step in identifying the types of changes that may be most helpful is to assess whether the symptoms you are experiencing are most likely to come from “comfort” and pressure point issues or are coming from support and alignment issues.
If they are coming from comfort and pressure point issues then changes to the upper layers of the mattress will often be the most effective solution.
If they are coming from support and alignment issues then changes to the deeper layers will often be the most effective solution.
The most common cause of lower back pain is either upper layers that are too thick/soft or deeper layers that are too soft so it would certainly make sense to move firmer layers higher up in your design to “firm up” the support of the mattress and see how that works for you although it’s also possible that there could be other reasons for lower back pain as well.
In most cases the layering and firmness suggestions that are made by more knowledgeable and reliable suppliers would work well “on average” for most people that have a similar body type and sleeping style but not everyone fits inside the averages of other people so there will always be some people that are more “sensitive” that have more difficulty in finding layering combinations that work well for them … especially if you only have 3" layers to work with (since you don’t have the option of doing any “fine tuning” with layer thickness in addition to layer firmness).
Anything is “possible” yes because each person is unique but the only way to know for sure will be based on your own trial and error and personal experience.
I would also work with what you have to find the “best possible” combination before purchasing anything else as well.
Thanks for the reply and for the links. To be honest I do get low back pain upon waking but also mid back pain as well that lasts throughout the day ( I generally don’t notice the low back pain later in the day). It’s the mid back pain that is the most problematic for me. From reading the links it also seems like a comfort layer that is too thick and soft can cause mid back issues.
If it sounds reasonable, I think moving the xfirm to the 2nd position would be the best move for the next few weeks and see what happens. I know this would be more of an adjustment to the transition layer rather than the comfort layer but given my toppers it seem like the easiest thing to do.
We moved the xfirm to the middle layer and have been sleeping on this configuration for the last 5 nights. It definitely firmed up the feel of the mattress but the mattress now is so firm now that I have pressure points on my shoulders and back. It also feels like the medium comfort layer does not provide enough of a soft cradle as my mid back is sore when laying down on the bed and in the morning when I wake. I am an exclusive back sleeper (6ft 185 lbs), my wife is 5"4 (120 lbs), back/side sleeper but she likes bed firmer than myself.
On the flip side, I no longer have low back pain and it seems like my pelvis does not sink in as much as the other configurations. But I still have mid back pain fairly consistently which was present even before the last adjustment. Does this indicate that the support layers are appropriate and the comfort layer needs fine tuning? I unfortunately only have 3 inch toppers as you mentioned in your last post so If I really wanted to adjust the top 3 inches of comfort layer I would need to purchase either 1 or 2 inch toppers (which would be a last resort).
Another question I had is does it matter if you place the small hole side or the bigger hole side up during mattress layering (ex. side that was cut at factory has smaller holes, side with larger holes was made in the mold). When I first assembled the mattress I placed all the toppers with the small holes up because I was told this (in theory) would provide a firmer mattress overall). Any thoughts?
Where to go from here: If I can tolerate it I was going to try the mattress for a few more nights to see what happens (although some nights I feel like I want to throw in the towel). But then at that point I have a few different options for adjustments and I just was not sure where to start. I suppose we can cross that bridge when it comes unless you have any thoughts currently?
My wife who has been a really good sport about the mattress is starting to loose her patience with the adjustments (the toppers are heavy as you know and its a pain to get the 6 sided zipper dust cover off the mattress). She has a spine that is less sensitive than mine and has felt fine on every configuration we have tried. If I need to make another adjustment I was thinking of leaving the dust cover off and cutting all the layers into split queens with an electric carving knife (which I have on hand). This would make adjustments much easier and perhaps I could fine tune the layers on her side as well. I know there are posts here on MU about splitting toppers so I think that should be fairly easy for me.
Let me know if you have any thoughts. Thanks again!
It’s good to hear that you no longer have lower back pain which would generally indicate that the support and transition layers are “firm enough” under your pelvis. As you can see in the previous links I posted there are several possible reasons for mid back pain but based on your feedback the ones that are probably most likely are either a pillow issue (the thickness/softness of your pillow) or you may need a little more thickness/softness on the top of your mattress. It would be somewhat unusual to have pressure points in your shoulders if you are an exclusive back sleeper because you wouldn’t be sleeping on your shoulders to put pressure on them when you are on your back so I would keep any additional thickness to the absolute minimum so that you have “just enough” in terms of thickness and softness so that you don’t end up with comfort layers that are too thick and soft and reintroduce lower back pain again.
Shredded latex toppers may also be worth considering because if they aren’t filled too much then the latex pieces can “flow around” the parts of the body that have a smaller surface area to some degree (such as the shoulder blades) and allow them to penetrate a little more deeply and relieve pressure while at the same time being more “supportive” for the parts of the body that have a larger surface area.
A zoning solution may also be worth considering that has a softer zone under the upper body and There is more about zoning in
Various zoning systems can also be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. This would allow you to have a softer zone under your upper body and a firmer zone under the lower back and pelvis. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here.
If you split a 6" core into separate 3" layers then it’s certainly possible that there could be a slight firmness difference between each layer but this will be less noticeable with Talalay latex than with Dunlop. Again the only way to know whether you would be sensitive enough to notice any difference with these types of small differences would be based on your own personal experience.
Again your own trial and error will be the only way to know for certain with a DIY design but I would prioritize support alignment and then if you need some additional softness I would use the information in post #8 here and the topper guidelines it links to to try and add “just enough” additional softness and thickness to provide you with the additional comfort and pressure relief that you need and that would have the best chance of success.
There are some great instructions for cutting or gluing foam layers (either for zoning or for side to side split layers) in post #3 here and some additional posts with more comments and pictures about cutting foam in post #19 here and post #1 here.
Definitely have a lot to think about and lots of options to try. Will likely be cutting the latex slabs into split queens next weekend, thanks for the links!
Also, ran across some posts of dominant layering in the links you provided. This may be a good option for me because I like a firmer surface feel of a mattress and like to sleep “on” the mattress rather than" in" the mattress. The softest layer I have is a medium so I not sure this would work for me but its definitely worth a try. DIY zoning seems a little over my head but its something I can fall back on if all else fails.
Will keep you posted. Thanks so much again for everything!
Just a quick update: I continued to sleep with the med/xfirm/firm for the last few nights and it’s staring to feel a little better. Mid back pain has decreased and the bed feels less “hard” when I lay down in it. I still have stiffness in both my lower and mid back so it’s not perfect by anymeans. I believe what my body is trying to tell me is that the bottom layers of firm/xfirm are appropriate for proper support, it’s just the comfort layer that needs adjustment, would you agree.
We were going to make an adjustment this weekend and I have 3 thoughts. Just wanted to check which would head me in the right. Direction:
take off top of wool cover and sleep directly on the latex with current configuration: med/xfirm/firm. This may soften the comfort layer slightly and I could see if a stretch knit cover would work better.
change to firm/med/firm. This dominant layering would firm up the comfort layer. I could also keep the bottom layer as xfirm.
change to 4 layer bed: med/med/xfirm/firm. I have 4 layers so I have this option. I’m concrrned that the comfort layer may be too soft. Is there another 4 layer configuration you could recommend ?
I went back through the topic to take a look at some of the combinations you’ve tried so that they would be all together in a single post and would be easier to compare and contrast.
med/med/firm:
As you mentioned this sounds like it was too soft although if you slept well on it for a month then it was probably fairly close. You also mentioned that after a month you had “no more low back pain” but it’s not clear to me whether you had low back pain before you were sleeping on this combination or whether you had low back pain when you first started sleeping on this combination and then it went away after a month and then came back again after 2 months. You didn’t mention anything about mid back pain so I’m assuming that it wasn’t something that you experienced with this combination.
medium/firm/medium:
This sounds like it was very close and you didn’t mention any symptoms that you were experiencing on this combination after 6 - 8 weeks so it sounds like it was a good combination for you. The “feel” of a mattress is much less important than any actual symptoms you are experiencing.
medium/firm/extra firm:
[quote]Just wanted to give a quick update: I purchased an extra firm (44-46 ild) 6 inch extra long twin core by latex international from mattresses.net. I had one side of the core trimmed so that the topper would measure 30 x 80". Once I received the core, I brought it to a local foam factory and had the core split into two 3 inch toppers. We placed the new extra firm toppers on the bottom of our mattress resulting in a configuration of medium\firm\X firm.
We’ve been sleeping on the new mattress now for about 4 to 5 days, but so far so good. The mattress density feels great and adding the extra firm toppers to the bottom of the mattress definitely made a difference in feel for us. It was actually less expensive for us to buy a 6 inch core have it cut then to buy a solid 3 inch queen topper. Our mattress does have layers of radium and latex international mixed but overall we like the feel.[/quote]
This also sounds like it was a good combination for you initially based on your feedback after 4 - 5 days and it seemed to be even better than the previous medium/firm/medium … at least for a few days until you mentioned this a few weeks later …
[quote]Unfortunately, I have been having issues with our latex mattress for the past few weeks. Specifically, low back pain as well as mid back pain as well upon waking. We are sleeping on the configuration of med/firm/Xfirm blended talalay (all 3 inch layers).
I don’t wake up in the middle of the night with back pain but I wake up in the morning with pain and the bed just does not feel good when I lay down in it at night. It feels like my hip and low back area sinks in too much, almost like a trampoline. Granted I have been doing a lot of manual labor projects around the house and taking care of our 13 month old (23 lb) son which may be contributing to my back pain. But its just frustrating not to get relief from our bed. I have a neck issues which is likely causing some of the mid back issues, but have never had an issue with low back pain in the past.[/quote]
The mid back pain was a “new” symptom that appeared with this new firmer combination (the firmest configuration you had tried so far) so it would be logical to think that it was related to the mattress now being too firm. This combination also seemed to reintroduce low back pain which you didn’t seem to have on the previous combination after 6 - 8 weeks so since both of these new symptoms appeared after you firmed up the mattress it would “point to” the mattress now being too firm.
The problem here is that it’s not clear if your symptoms were coming from the mattress or from some of the work you were doing but overall based on your comments it doesn’t seem that this combination was working as well for you past the first few days as the previous medium/firm/medium combination.
If you have ongoing mid back pain that lasts throughout the day then it’s possible that it’s not related to the mattress (pain from mattress issues will usually go away once you are up and have moved and stretched a little). If it is related to your mattress then it’s also possible once again that it could be a pillow issue since changing the firmness of your mattress can often result in needing a different pillow with a different thickness to keep your head and neck in good alignment. Either way … based on the progression of the combinations you had tried up to this point (and assuming that your symptoms were from the mattress and not your other activities) it seems that this combination may have moved you into the “too firm” range.
medium/extra firm/firm:
[quote]We moved the xfirm to the middle layer and have been sleeping on this configuration for the last 5 nights. It definitely firmed up the feel of the mattress but the mattress now is so firm now that I have pressure points on my shoulders and back. It also feels like the medium comfort layer does not provide enough of a soft cradle as my mid back is sore when laying down on the bed and in the morning when I wake. I am an exclusive back sleeper (6ft 185 lbs), my wife is 5"4 (120 lbs), back/side sleeper but she likes bed firmer than myself.
On the flip side, I no longer have low back pain and it seems like my pelvis does not sink in as much as the other configurations. But I still have mid back pain fairly consistently which was present even before the last adjustment. Does this indicate that the support layers are appropriate and the comfort layer needs fine tuning? I unfortunately only have 3 inch toppers as you mentioned in your last post so If I really wanted to adjust the top 3 inches of comfort layer I would need to purchase either 1 or 2 inch toppers (which would be a last resort).[/quote]
This also seems to be “pointing to” firmer layers being a potential cause of your mid back issue and this combination has also introduced a new symptom which is the pressure points in your shoulders. Again it’s also possible that the mid back issue is a pillow issue.
The good news with this is that you don’t appear to have lower back pain which “points to” the deeper layers being “firm enough” although you also didn’t have lower back pain on the medium/firm/medium combination either (at least that you mentioned) and you also didn’t have lower back pain for the first 4 or 5 nights on the medium/firm/extra firm either so it’s possible that you may experience lower back pain when you sleep on this combination for a little longer as well if the combination is also too firm for you.
[quote]Just a quick update: I continued to sleep with the med/xfirm/firm for the last few nights and it’s staring to feel a little better. Mid back pain has decreased and the bed feels less “hard” when I lay down in it. I still have stiffness in both my lower and mid back so it’s not perfect by anymeans. I believe what my body is trying to tell me is that the bottom layers of firm/xfirm are appropriate for proper support, it’s just the comfort layer that needs adjustment, would you agree.
We were going to make an adjustment this weekend and I have 3 thoughts. Just wanted to check which would head me in the right. Direction:[/quote]
This is good news and since your experience seems to be changing for the better I would probably continue to sleep on this for a while longer until your experience “stabilizes” and any symptoms you are experiencing are consistent.
Overall it seems that the medium/firm/medium combination was the best for you so far since you didn’t appear to experience any “symptoms” and the only reason you changed it was the “feel”.
Again I would probably sleep on your current configuration for a little longer since your experience seems to be changing although it would be worth trying it without the cover to see whether any additional contouring makes a difference.
Once you have tried this for “long enough” (and depending on whether you are still experiencing any “symptoms” either with or without the cover) it may also be worthwhile going back to the medium/firm/medium combination to see how it works for you.
Based on your comments I probably wouldn’t use a firm as the top layer since it seems that going firmer has introduced more symptoms.
This may be worth trying once you have exhausted all the three layer combinations but again the only way to know whether this will work for you will be based on your own experience since you are already “outside the averages” that would work for most people. This would probably be softer than most of the combinations you have already tried (and possibly softer than your first medium/medium/firm combination).
