I used IE for the last attempts but I will email them to you for your and Sleepy’s amusement.
Hi LEW,
I’ll post the pictures here as soon as I receive them.
Back to the issue of what to do though … I would definitely talk with the Denver Mattress retailer where you purchased it.
If it really is an issue of foam softening and not just “normal break in” then they would be able to confirm this for you. While it’s not the norm … it is a possibility that you have a mattress that includes defective material. I talked with someone at Denver Mattress today who mentioned to me that he had seen a few recent issues with the Telluride which also contains latex. Of course both mattresses contain both latex and polyfoam in the comfort layers (the Telluride has more than the Snowmass which only has an inch) so its difficult to know which material could be the issue.
It’s also possible there could be an issue with your foundation under the mattress and I would check this as well just to remove this as a possibility. You could test this by putting the mattress on the floor and seeing if there was any difference.
You could also turn the mattress 180% and see if there is any difference between the sides as well. Sleeping on the mattress would generally be a more accurate gauge than pressing on it with your hands.
Phoenix
Switching the posts is fine. I knew I was bouncing around. Whew, whew: I’m a bronze member! 
I am looking at other possibilities in mattresses and may go up to Boulder to visit Foam Source. If Denver Mattress has truly dropped the Snowmass from their in store line, as opposed to just from on-line, I don’t know if I would want a replacement. I will call the store soon. Lew
PS There is no issue with the foundation. It is particle board over two by fours, which are on edge, crown up. This foundation is SOLID. As I have said, the center of the bed is still like new in terms of support.
PSS My salesman was with a customer when I called, but the person who took the call confirmed that the Snowmas has been dropped.
I just got off the phone with Brian at DM. He was great about a possible return-they always have been. He told me that the Snowmass will be back. They are going to do 2 versions, one with air and a regular. Maybe they will re-design the regular…In the meantime I am thinking of going up to Boulder and visiting Foam Source and see what they have.
Hi LEW,
The person I talked with also told me that he thought they would be replacing it but not with as much detail as you provided here. thanks for letting us know.
You’ve probably seen this but just in case … the better options I’m aware of in the Denver area (including Boulder) are in post #2 here.
On the picture front … I received your pictures and tried to attach them with Explorer but strangely enough I also had no luck. This is odd to me because I as able to attach pictures just yesterday so I don’t know what is happening. I received an error message saying the pictures didn’t upload. I’ll have to see if I can figure out what is happening.
Your boards under the bed are actually among the better ways to “fix” support issues and are similar in concept to the Mattress Remedy that I’ve suggested as a possible way to temporarily or partially correct sagging issues. Working from the bottom up can be a more effective method of helping with sagging than trying to add a firmer layer or topper and trying to correct it from the “top down”.
No “grief” from me 
Phoenix
Phoenix, That link to the air bladder is too funny. Not funny ha ha though, more funny ironic because that is exactly what I was thinking of this afternoon while I was fussing with my bed a again. I was thinking of an air bladder, sort of a localized sleep number. One more invention that I won’t be able to patent. 
We will see if Brian’s info was right on the Snowmass. Also, I did find your posts on mattress dealers in the Denver area. I think that is where I found out about Urban Mattress. I will go over the post again. I probably found Foam Source through you.
As for the pictures, maybe it is fate censoring me. Lew
G’day Phoenix, and thanks for the work you do!! My back has felt better the last two days since I put the boards under the Snowmass mattress. I think I had an aha moment this morning while wondering why I am so sensitive to my hips sinking in despite not being heavy in that region. I am sure you have covered this somewhere on your website, but here is my take: Most people who carry a lot of weight in their hips are also broad in the hips. They are starting with that part of their spine elevated. I am slender in the hips, so my hips start lower. I came up with the support configuration through trial and error as the old mattress aged. Essentially I built a wedge, thickest under my hips and tapering up to my mid back. I realize that that is my build: a wedge with broad shoulders and narrow hips. Does it make sense that this would make me sensitive to compression in the hip area, and that a wedge running the other way would feel good.?
Anyway, I stopped at My Sleep Nation on the way home from my chiropractor (he told me, without prompting that my pelvis was tilted). I had tried to find this store a few weeks ago, but their website was down and all my searches lead me to the dead link and didn’t give a phone number. I thought they were out of business. I tried several mattresses and the one I liked best was a house brand that is made of two layers of latex, 6 inches each, with a cotton cover. The top layer is supposed to be 30ish ILD and the bottom layer is 42-44 ILD. You would think this would be awfully firm, but it felt both pressure relieving and supportive. I do need a lot of pressure relief for my banged up shoulders and am surprised that this firm a mattress seemed okay, at least for 10 minutes or so.
I am surprised at the layering approach, both in the thickness of the layers and the firmness. I am inclined to trust my feel over numbers, but given a $3300 list for mattress alone it seems like an unnecessarily thick mattress. He does have one in stock that has a cover with older cosmetics and I can get that for about $2400…
I am going to call Rocky Mountain Mattress and Sleep Ez before doing anything. Having options in layering, and the ability to replace worn out layers are nice benefits to SleepEz, while RMM is supposed to have firmer foam in the hip area of the support layer. I don’t mind paying more to buy from a local merchant who has beds I can “demo”, but there isn’t much I can do to change the bed down the road if it doesn’t work out. Do you have any feedback or suggestions on these options?
Thanks again, Lew
If you decide to go with SleepEZ, if you could test the Savvy Rest locally, they are very similar.
Also, SleepEZ has a 5-zone layer (bottom of the page):
https://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm
Since I just bought from them, I’m pretty familiar with their lineup so just thought I’d throw this in. Definitely talk to Shawn and see what he recommends.
I guess that is what was referred to as lumbar support in the 9000 description. That would be very interesting as the support part of the mattress. Thanks for the help. Lew
PS I just got off the phone with Shawn. The zoned support layer is special order. It is firmer on the shoulder as well as hip area so it might not be right for me. He didn’t sound excited about it. He suggested S/M/F for me, which is what I would have guessed.
Hi LEW,
This makes perfect sense to me and it’s impressive that you’ve come to recognize this. Relationship between body mass in each area of the body, the surface area of that part of the body (which changes as you sink in deeper), and the shape of that part of the body (not to mention each person’s sensitivity to alignment and pressure issues) is extremely variable with each person and is a big part of why there is no formula that can truly predict how well each person will react to a specific type of mattress. I have talked about this in quite a number of posts including here and here and here as well as in much more technical detail here.
There is also a further complication which is that the hips/pelvis are generally narrower than the shoulders so if you imagine floating in the air in perfect alignment in a side sleeping position and sinking down then the shoulders will come into contact with the mattress first and need to sink in to some degree before the hips will even contact the mattress surface. You can read more about this here.
It can often be surprising how certain combinations work for different people. The 30 ILD would be in the range of medium vs soft but once again surface area, body shape, and individual sensitivities … and mattress and layer thickness … can play a big role. I would also suggest spending at least 15 minutes … after you are fully relaxed … testing all your normal sleeping positions when you are testing a mattress. The closer you can simulate the pre-sleep state when your muscles have let go the more you will be able to detect the more subtle cues that come from the mattress and from your body.
Mattress thickness can play a significant role in the softness and response of a mattress. Thicker layers have a greater range of compression and become firmer more slowly than thinner mattresses. Thicker mattresses can also “get away” with firmer layering because thickness and softness work hand in hand. You can read more about this in post #14 here. Of course mattresses that use thicker layers of more expensive materials are also more costly. I would also trust your “feel” over numbers but it’s also nice to know that what you are feeling has a basis behind it
I would always trust your actual experiences over any “theory” for all the reasons that we’ve talked about in this post. There are certainly benefits to a layered approach that can be exchanged though but it all depends on your level of confidence in the suitability of what you are buying. Your testing experiences will certainly be valuable in any discussions about your choices. I tend to speak to quality and value and leave the design and layering options to more detailed conversations between you and each manufacturer but all the online options you are considering are good ones from a quality/value perspective and the choice between them would be based on your own personal value equation and the importance of the different features, benefits, and options that each offers before, during, and after the sale.
This is a very good suggestion (thanks Sleepy1 :)). they also have 9 and 12" versions that can “approximate” the layering at Sleep Nation and at SleepEz.
Are you sure that the shoulder area is firmer (my understanding is that its softer)? I know from my conversations with Shawn that he is a big believer in the value of non zoned latex which works to adapt to different body shapes with it’s natural compression modulus (support factor) rather than different zones. In most cases … zoned latex has a rather small differential between the zones anyway which may be less than the natural variations in the latex itself … especially with Dunlop latex. In other cases the zones can even be counter productive if the difference in soft and firm is in the wrong areas. I personally prefer 2 or 3 zone approaches except in more unusual cases where “reverse zoning” (zoning that “allows” the hips/pelvis and increases firmness under the lumbar curve rather than stops them) may be appropriate.
I’ve linked lots of information here but I would focus on careful testing to establish the design that is best for you rather than theory because you body will “bypass” all the theory if you allow it to completely relax, wear thin and “non interfering” loose clothing, spend enough time on each mattress, and “listen” very carefully to the more subtle messages you get from your body.
Phoenix
Hi LEW,
I finally figured out why the images wouldn’t upload. They were too big!
I downsized them and it worked so now we can see your version of the mattress remedy
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
It has been a productive, at least I hope, afternoon and I have some more pictures for you. I planned to go to Boulder to visit Foam Source and hit the Natural Sleep Store on the way as they carry the Savy Rest. Having worked in high service retail sales most of my adult life I didn’t feel good about going into their store to try out things that I would buy on line, but I decided I would try the Savy Rest and then talk price if I liked it. That worked out fine.
I turned out they had a three layer mattress that Andy said was all dunlop and I liked it. It had the ubiquitous S/M/F arrangement on one side and the other was S/F/M. I couldn’t tell much difference. The only thing that I didn’t like was that it didn’t seem to conform to my body the way the other mattresses I had tried did. I didn’t know if I was “feeling things” or if it might be true. The cover was three layers, course cotton, wool, cotton, with the wool for fire retardancy. This cover wasn’t at all stretchy and I guessed that the combination of that and the dunlop latex might have contributed to the feel. I would think that a stretchy cover would allow the latex to follow body lines better. I asked Andy about pricing and gave me a price that was close to what the Sleep Nation mattress was running. It was also close enough to the SleepEz price that I was comfortable spending the extra and supporting a local store that had it on display.
I got in my car to head to Boulder, but I didn’t make it very far. I decided to go back to My Sleep Nation with my pillow and sweat pants and try their bed again. I am glad I did.
This time Sean wasn’t in, but an energetic fellow named Romeo was. After explaining that I was in for a second trial he left me alone to play on the bed. After 15 or 20 minutes I told him that I was looking at his Wazee street mattress as well as a Savy Rest, that the cover on the WS was much more strecthy than the Savy Rest and seemed to conform more to my shoulder blades. It also seemed softer than the 30 ILD and 42 ILD ratings for the 6 inches layers would suggest.
At this point Romeo unzipped the cover and showed me the construction:
First of all the cover is supposed to be 100% organic cotton. It seemed to me to be too stretchy to be all cotton, though I don’t really care. The two 6 inch layers were held together by a sheer mesh and the size of the holes varied as you moved down the mattress. The larger holes allow more flexibility, so it is essentially a multi-zoned mattress. I think this explains why it didn’t seem as hard as it should have for the firmness rating. The holes are smaller in the hip area and larger in the shoulders. This would allow more give in the shoulders, more support in the hips. Romeo told me that Sean, the owner, had worked on this design with Comforpedic, who makes it for them at a local factory. This is also the kind of design I thought I might do well on after all of the time spent here, reading, and reading, and getting advice.
So, I gave Romeo a deposit, took some pictures, and am looking forward to the next step. I am a little concerned that the large holes in some areas of the mattress might make it break down faster, but I decided to take that chance. The mattress is made locally and the construction makes it easy to work on or replace worn out layers. Let’s hope this one sticks.
[attachment]WazeeStreetreduced.jpg[/attachment]
Lew
Here are some more pics.
Hi LEW,
Your post brings up some interesting concepts that are part of mattress design and theory that are not always obvious so I’ll make a few comments about them.
The type of cover and quilting in a mattress can make a significant difference in how the top layers respond. The less stretchy cover (with one or two woven cotton layers) along with the wool quilting as well as the Dunlop latex (which gets firmer faster with deeper compression than Talalay so you don’t sink in as much even in the same firmness level as Talalay) would combine to account for what you felt.
There are several things that would account for the difference here. The first of these is that the cover is a stretch knit (not a woven cover) without any quilting which would allow you to sink into the latex below it more. The second part of this is that layer thickness plays just as big a role as layer softness and they work hand in hand to produce the “softness” you feel. There is more about this in post #14 here. Finally … Talalay latex has a lower compression modulus or support factor than Dunlop and doesn’t get firmer as quickly as Dunlop as you sink in more. All of these together would result in a much softer feeling layering and more “adaptable” mattress than just the ILD’s alone would suggest (as you mentioned).
The holes in latex are part of what makes it softer or firmer (along with the blend of air and latex in the formula) and there is absolutely no reason to worry about them as they are a part of all Talalay and most Dunlop latex. They contribute to airflow as well (although the cell structure of latex is what makes the material more breathable than other materials). The zoning that you mentioned can also be helpful because just as you said it allows the shoulders to sink in more and at the same time “stops” the heavier pelvis/hips from sinking down too far. While latex itself has what some people call “natural zoning” because of its high support factor … actual zoning can certainly be helpful when its necessary or beneficial.
I think too that the local factory that makes them is Therapedic rather than Comforpedic (which is the name of some of the Simmons memory foam mattresses) but of course who makes them isn’t nearly as important as what is in them and how well it works for you.
It sounds to me like you have found a construction that works well for you and to me this is well worth some extra cost. I’ve often mentioned that when people look back on a mattress purchase 10 years down the road … they will remember much more about how well they slept on it than they will how much they paid for it … within reason of course
So for the second time … congratulations on your new mattress … and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you have the chance to sleep on it.
Phoenix
“I think too that the local factory that makes them is Therapedic rather than Comforpedic”
Comforpedic/Therapedic/ Thermopedic, I get them all confused That’s why I take notes. Of course I will do a follow up or two down the road.
Thanks again n again. Lew
UPDATE: Mattress seems fine now. After our weekend experimenting, we returned the mattress to the original configuration; however, apparently the soft Talalay top layer got flipped around or turned over during the process. And that seemed to do the trick. Certainly the 100% natural soft Talalay would be the layer most prone to softening, so maybe all we needed was to flip it around so the softening is more even. Such a simple idea that we never even thought of…
So, no layer exchanges needed so far. And we’re officially 30 days in now.
Hi Sleepy1,
Sometimes the simplest ideas are the most effective … and it’s too easy to look right past them
Phoenix
Hmm. same idea as rotating the mattress, but a lot less heavy lifting. We all should have thought of that! Hope that is the end of it.
Well it is time for a follow up on our mattress adventure. Our Sleep Nation Wazee St. ( their mattresses are named after Denver area streets and blvds) was delivered Monday by Sean, the owner, and an employee.
This mattress, as noted in a post above, has a 6 inch zoned layer of latex that is a nominal 30ILD. It is zoned to be firmer in the hips and softer in the shoulder area. The changes in firmness are accomplished by changing the diameters of the holes in the latex.The support level is a 6 inch 40-42 ILD, also Talalay latex. I don’ t know if this layer is also zoned.The cover is knit cotton and very stretchy. It allows you to really feel the latex below and zips off for washing. When I first lay on the mattress, before making up the bed, it felt very firm. When on my back I could not feel much support in the lumbar area, as if I weren’t sinking in enough. When i laid on my side my shoulder felt too much pressure. So, taking a cue from another post here, I did some walking on the bed, barefoot of course. I spent several minutes stepping firmly on the areas where it seemed too firm. When I laid down again I could feel my hips sinking in further and my lower back getting some support, so I did the same thing to my wife’s side of the bed.
My wife and I both felt comfortable that night and by morning I could feel a significant softening where I was lying. I could confirm this by moving over to the center of the bed, where we had neither lain nor walked. It was firmer there, both to lie on and push on with my hand. I was so pleased with the improvement in comfort that I spent a minute or two walking in the middle area to soften it too. My idea is that I want an even surface so that my hips don’t get twisted if a sleep slightly off my regular sleeping area.
It has been four nights and my wife has declared the mattress “yummy” which happens to be a description of Sleep Nation’s plushest mattress on their website. So far we are pleased and hope the mattress stabilizes about where it is.
After my experience with two latex mattresses I have some thoughts to share. My first mattress which was described as firm by Denver Mattress, turned out to be way too soft and unsupportive after only a few days. I didn’t know if that was due to softening of the latex, the one inch of poly foam on top, the quilting on the top, or a combination of all of these factors. After four days on a mattress that is significantly firmer, with no poly foam, no quilting, and a 30-32 top layer, I am inclined to think that most of the softening occurred in the latex. The firmer, almost all latex mattress softened up at almost exactly the same pace as the poly foam combo.
So, my conclusion is to suggest that anyone who buys a foam mattress that appears to be too firm initially should try walking on it to get it breaking in. A light weight person might not deflect a firm foam enough while sleeping to break it in quickly. Gently walking on it will deflect it much more than sleeping on it. so you might as well get things rolling.
BTW, kudos to Sleep Nation for putting a mattress this firm on their floor and whole-heartedly recommending it. They told me they have had very few comfort returns on this mattress and it is a best seller.
Hi LEW,
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions!
It seems that you’ve “walked your way” to comfort and through the initial break in period a little faster. This would be especially effective as well for some of the higher density memory foam mattresses (that use 7 - 8 lb memory foam) which can take even longer to get to their “long term” feel than latex.
Phoenix