[quote=“Phoenix”]
You are “most of the way there” but I would want to fill in the gaps of the missing information before a purchase to confirm that it would be a good quality/value choice and even though it’s in a lower budget range it would still be important to me that there are no obvious weak links in the mattress so you don’t take on the higher risk of premature foam softening and the loss of comfort and support that goes with it. Better retailers should also be doing the work of tracking down the specs for you so you don’t have to deal directly with a manufacturer although I’m impressed that you are taking the time to do so.[/quote]
I just sent the following reply off (hoping I made sense because frankly I don’t really know what I’m talking about, LOL):
"I wasn’t sure what you meant by “build up portion” of the mattress…I just still need to know the following:
Thickness (inches) of the memory foam comfort layer & memory foam density (is that 1.5lb?)
Thickness of the quilted foam layer
Thickness of the support foam layer"
[quote=“Phoenix”]
Some of the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in the Tampa, Clearwater, St Petersburg area are listed in post #143 here.[/quote]
Just for reference … the “build up” portion of the mattress are the foam layers above the innerspring and below the quilting layer.
1.5 lb density is typically polyfoam and if it was memory foam it would be very very low quality (I would use 4 lb density as a minimum guideline for memory foam).
This doesn’t really have a support foam layer because the support component in the mattress is the innerspring.
Well, here’s the reply I got. Doesn’t sound too good (correct me if I’m wrong):
“The build up is the material between the innerspring and cover. All the layers you referenced are 1/2 inch but there are 2 of each since it is a 2 sided mattress. The density is 1.5 LB.”
Unfortunately that still doesn’t give you the information you need.
I usually find it useful to have them list the layers from top to bottom (including the quilting layers) and making sure they include the thickness of each layer, the type and density of any memory foam or polyfoam, and the type and blend of any latex. It’s unfortunate that they make is so difficult and provide the information like pieces of a puzzle that aren’t put together instead of providing the final picture that is clear.
I’m still not clear on the specifics of this mattress and if it has memory foam in the “buildup” then the density is unlikely to be 1.5 lbs.
So far … it seems like these are the details that are known …
It’s similar to the Daybreak Plush but the Daybreak Plush is a 12.5" mattress according to their site and this one appears to be 14" so there must be some differences in the inner materials
Quilting: 1/2" convoluted polyfoam 1.2 lb density: This is low quality/density polyfoam but it would be fine if there was under “around an inch or so” and this was the only layer used in the quilting. The description for the Daybreak says “Hypersoft / Supersoft zoned contour quilt foam” so there may be more than one quilting layer.
Buildup: ?" Visco plus memory foam plus: This is memory foam and I would want to know the thickness and the density. It almost certainly wouldn’t be 1.5 lbs (which is a typical polyfoam density not memory foam).
?" Poly Plus support foam: This appears to be 1.5 lb polyfoam but I would want to know the thickness. Is this one of the .5" layers they are mentioning?
Support: 690 coil innerspring with endure foam encasement: This would be fine and foam encasement is “in the range” for reasonable density. The innerspring isn’t usually the weak link of a mattress but it would be nice to know the height and the gauge of the springs.
Once you have all the layer or component thicknesses you can add them up to make sure they are just under the total thickness of the mattress (the foam layers excludes the fire barrier and the insulator that is over the spring so it would be a little less than the total thickness of the mattress).
They sure don’t make getting the information you need easy and it’s unfortunate that this is so common in the industry.
Grrrrr…thank you for guiding me through this. I wonder if this person is playing dumb or simply doesn’t understand my question. I’m not sure how much clearer I can be??? Going to have to figure out a reply that this person can comprehend. This shouldn’t be so difficult! :S
Part of the problem is that most manufacturers aren’t used to dealing with consumers that know what to ask for so they think that partial information will satisfy them. It’s probably fair to say that 99% of consumers choose the mattresses they sleep on without having any idea of the quality of the materials that are used inside it.
Many manufacturers are also reluctant to provide complete specs because they are well aware that this information can be used to make more meaningful comparisons with other manufacturers which they believe may not be in their best interests. In addition to this they believe that consumers don’t have the knowledge or experience to interpret the information accurately anyway (and for the most part they are right) so they don’t take providing this information all that seriously. It’s easier to sell mattresses or train salespeople to sell based on marketing stories that are used to “differentiate” one mattress from another than it is to train them with more specific information that can help consumers make better quality choices. It’s much harder to differentiate one mattress from another if consumers realize that all manufacturers have access to similar types of materials in their mattresses. The information on this site is not the type of information that larger manufacturers tend to welcome or spend much time encouraging and it goes against the overall trends in the industry where the larger manufacturers that aren’t transparent about their materials are actually gaining market share from year to year (see this article)
While your mattress is not in a budget range where a manufacturer would be able to use the highest quality or most durable materials … I would still consider it important to make sure that there are at least no obvious weak links in the mattress so that you can have a realistic expectation that the mattress will have a reasonable useful lifetime. The more consumers insist on this type of information and deal only with more transparent manufacturers the more likely it is that the industry will slowly become more consumer friendly and quality oriented. Most smaller independent manufacturers are already more like this but consumers are exposed to so much advertising and marketing information and the major chains or big box stores are so focused on major brands that for the most part most consumers never even find out that they have better alternatives made by smaller manufacturers.
I would email them with something along the lines of the following …
If they don’t provide you with the information you need after this then I would say there is little chance that they ever will.
I should also mention that this is really the job of the retailer of the mattress who should be willing and able to find out all this information for every mattress they sell to an “educated consumer”.
I will give that reply a shot. I totally bypassed asking the dealer because I could tell by talking to the salesperson that he would have absolutely NO idea what the answers were, then I’d have to rely on him to email back and forth with the manufacturer, which would’ve wasted even more of my time. I’m used to doing things myself…they get done faster/better that way from experience. The dealer is a small “discount” mattress place in a small and dead strip mall type place…absolutely nothing fancy at all…just mattresses in a room and their desk…lol…no frills whatsoever…
Thanks again, will report back, hopefully with good news because I have been to 4 other places so far and this is the only mattress in my price range that feels the way I like and honestly, I don’t want this to be a months-long project…and frankly, it’s already getting old, lol…
I can certainly understand the frustration … and I also agree that this type of basic information should be much easier to obtain.
Unfortunately I think that many mattress purchases are the end result of mattress shopping fatigue more than quality and value comparisons in large part from the lack of meaningful information that is much too common in the mainstream parts of the industry.
Here’s the managers reply to the same questions I posed the other company…
The Mattress is slightly over 13" from the bottom to the crown of the mattress. The box is 9" (there is a 5" also available) standard bed frames should measure 7".
6" Total of 1.2 # Soy-based Everlast Plush Foam plus 1/2" Lumbar Support Layer of 3.74 # 100% Talalay Latex.
ALL Poly Foams are made in North America and they are Certi-Pur US Certified.
100% Natural Talalay Latex
Cover is a Four Way Stretch Jacquard Knit with Aloe Vera - Cotton - Synthetic Fibers
King Koil uses a DuraKoil spring unit - A Heavy Duty version of a Bonnell Coil
Coils - 5 Turns - 13 Gauge -they are 5.5" Tall this is the heaviest gauge of coil used by any major manufacturer in a production line bed on the market today. King Koil also offers a rare option to special order 12 gauge coil in their tight top beds. The Border Rod is 6 Gauge, not an 8 which is the standard of most companies today (the lower the number the thicker the steel). The coils are laced with a helical wire that runs head to toe. NOT left to right crossing the sleep surface. This helps to eliminate motion transfer from side to side as well as gives good posture and support for the back.
They use a Poly Propylene sheet over the entire spring unit and then double up through the center third. By doing this they help to insure that the upholstery does not get packed down into the inside diameter of the coil. MOST ALL manufacturers leave the tops of the coils open and this can create premature comfort padding wear out.
Edge Support - The use of both a Heavy 6 Gauge border rod and 1.5" 36ILD Foam Encasement, as well as foam inserts into the coil unit from the side for stability and even EXTRA edge support gives the King Koil an unparalleled edge support durability. They encase the top and bottom of the spring unit, as well as the sides. This is almost unheard of the bedding industry today.
When you consider all of the above and the fact that the company has Amish craftsman in Pennsylvania construct the boxes. I am sure that I can say that without a doubt King Koil offers the best value for your money of any bed on the market today even those that are sale priced 30 to 40% higher.
I have spoke to my rep and he has agreed to help out with a floor model discount I will apply to a new in the bag unit.
Your price will be $699.00 plus tax for A SET… that includes delivery.
Ok, just got reply from manufacturer of the first mattress I posted about. Maybe now I can sort of compare (I hope??):
Top down build up:
Cover, supersoft convoluted 1.2# foam, FR barrier, backing - approx 2"
Visco 1.5# density layer - 1/2"
Polyurethane firm support 1.5# foam layer - 1/2"
Fiber pad used as an insulator over the innerspring unit - 1/2"
660 14.5 guage coil wire, foam encased unit - 6"
Same build up on side 2 in reverse
(This set is about $100 less than the King Coil and double-sided, but from what I see it has 3 1/2" total above the innerspring vs 6" on the King Coil).
[quote]Cover, supersoft convoluted 1.2# foam, FR barrier, backing - approx 2"
Visco 1.5# density layer - 1/2"
Polyurethane firm support 1.5# foam layer - 1/2"
Fiber pad used as an insulator over the innerspring unit - 1/2"
660 14.5 guage coil wire, foam encased unit - 6"
Same build up on side 2 in reverse
(This set is about $100 less than the King Coil and double-sided, but from what I see it has 3 1/2" total above the innerspring vs 6" on the King Coil). [/quote]
This mattress uses 2.5" (the top quilting foam and the visco) that are lower density/quality than the guidelines I would use for a two sided mattress but the risk of premature foam softening and impressions may be offset by the very low budget range. This is not a budget range where you will normally find higher quality materials. You would be trading cost for a less durable mattress and a potentially shorter useful life (even though it’s two sided).
[quote]The Mattress is slightly over 13" from the bottom to the crown of the mattress. The box is 9" (there is a 5" also available) standard bed frames should measure 7".
6" Total of 1.2 # Soy-based Everlast Plush Foam plus 1/2" Lumbar Support Layer of 3.74 # 100% Talalay Latex.
ALL Poly Foams are made in North America and they are Certi-Pur US Certified.
100% Natural Talalay Latex
Cover is a Four Way Stretch Jacquard Knit with Aloe Vera - Cotton - Synthetic Fibers
King Koil uses a DuraKoil spring unit - A Heavy Duty version of a Bonnell Coil[/quote]
If they are using 6" of 1.2 lb polyfoam in a one sided mattress this alone would exclude it from contention for me regardless of any of the other components.
Assuming that you have done some careful and objective testing on both mattresses and they are both a good “match” for you in terms of PPP … then if I was forced to choose between them based on durability, the risk of foam softening and breakdown, and the useful lifetime that would be likely for both, then I would choose the first one as being less risky.
[quote=“Phoenix” post=30142]
If they are using 6" of 1.2 lb polyfoam in a one sided mattress this alone would exclude it from contention for me regardless of any of the other components.
Assuming that you have done some careful and objective testing on both mattresses and they are both a good “match” for you in terms of PPP … then if I was forced to choose between them based on durability, the risk of foam softening and breakdown, and the useful lifetime that would be likely for both, then I would choose the first one as being less risky.
Phoenix[/quote]
Wow, that’s disappointing. Just to clarify, how is 6" of 1.2# polyfoam less durable than the 2.5" on the Legacy model (even though 1/2" is 1.5lbs and 2" is 1.2lbs. Are you just taking into consideration the fact that it’s double sided?).
And to think the King Koil was originally retailing at $1700 ($1299 on the tag was a closeout sale price). Thanks for the input…what a learning experience!
Thinking about this more…I think I’m going to have to go with the KK despite your warnings…couple reasons.
The KK retailer is much more reputable than the one with the PP mattress. I really have no faith in them at all. If something went wrong I think I’d be up a creek without a paddle. Online, people say PP is not responsive about warranty claims.
Reading online, there are a lot of negative reviews on PP mattresses in general. KK, not so much. The KK retailer, although not a huge outfit, seems to have more invested in their reputation.
Unfortunately, since I only have max $800 to spend and I want a plush pillowtop, it looks like this is the most quality (between the two) that I’m going to get for my money…I’ve already been to oh, 7 places so far and I really am over it all
1.2 lb polyfoam is a “cheap” and very low quality material and the thickness of any low quality materials in the top layer will make a significant difference in its durability.
Foam softens and breaks down primarily in two ways. One is loss of height. If you have a 2" layer of low quality foam and it loses 25% of its height then you would have an impression of .5" which wouldn’t be that significant but if a 6" layer of the same material loses 25% of its height then you would have an impression of 1.5" which would have a much bigger effect.
Even more significant though is the loss of ILD or firmness. If you have a relatively thin layer that loses 25% of its firmness under the heavier parts of your body then your heavier parts (typically the pelvis) would sink in a little more deeply but it probably wouldn’t be enough to cause significant issues. On the other hand … if a thicker layer of low quality material loses 25% of its firmness (and polyfoam of such low quality will probably lose even more) … then your hips/pelvis could sink in much too deeply and you would likely be sleeping out of alignment which can lead to back ache and discomfort. Lower quality materials will both soften and impress much more quickly than higher quality materials and the more low quality materials there are in the top 5" or 6" or so of a mattress (a mattress will usually soften and break down from the top down) … then the bigger an issue both loss of softness and loss of height will be.
An even bigger issue is that the loss of comfort or support that goes with foam softening and the breakdown or cheap materials will lead to the need to replace the mattress but isn’t covered by a warranty which usually requires an actual visible impression (loss of height) of 1.5" or sometimes more before it is considered to be a “defect” (see post #174 here about mattress warranties). The issue of foam softening and “virtual impressions” along with warranty exclusions are the reason that most mattress warranties are mostly about marketing.
In addition to all of this … a two sided mattress that is flipped and rotated every 2 weeks or so for the first few months and seasonally after that will give the foam layers on the bottom a chance to rest and recover some of its height and firmness and it will wear and soften much more evenly (see post #3 here about two sided mattresses).
I personally wouldn’t consider a mattress that used 6" of cheap foam … even for a cheap mattress … unless it was only meant for temporary use or for a guest bedroom where it wasn’t used on a regular basis.
Of course each person has their own personal value equation and criteria that may be most important to them but at least if you decide to buy the mattress you are considering then you will know ahead of time that it’s very likely that you will be replacing it much too quickly and that the warranty on the mattress isn’t likely to make any difference.
Outside of PPP … a mattress is only as good as its construction and the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer. While neither one uses great quality materials and you would likely have much better options available then either of them … at least the PP could be “somewhat” justified by a very low budget while the KK uses materials that would be very low quality even for the budget range you are in.
Well thanks so much for your time and detailed info. I have learned a lot. I will just know to not get my expectations too high either way and sadly, this is probably what I’m going to have to settle for considering my budget and amount of comfort I want
I would suspect that you may have some better options available to you in your budget range.
Phoenix[/quote]
I did. I made a list of all of them but had to eliminate about half because they were farther away than I wanted to drive to be honest (Tampa is 45 min from me, etc). It’s hard when you have fatigue/pain issues
Just in case you are closer to the Bradenton / Sarasota area (Bradenton is apparently about 45 minutes from Tampa) … post #5 here may also be helpful. This thread may also be helpful as well.
Just in case you are closer to the Bradenton / Sarasota area (Bradenton is apparently about 45 minutes from Tampa) … post #5 here may also be helpful. This thread may also be helpful as well.
Phoenix[/quote]
Thanks, unfortunately I’m not…that’s like an hour+. I am further 45 min west of Tampa near the beaches…
