Haynes Restonic Utopia Talalay Latex - anyone have any experience with this mattress?

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

That’s very interesting about the firmness vs. point elasticity! Theoretically, I would prefer to go all Latex, even with the higher price point for Nirvana, but it just doesn’t do well for me on Posture and Alignment.

I would always consider PPP and how well you are likely to sleep on a mattress as the most important priority since if a mattress isn’t a good match for you in terms of PPP it would have little value to you regardless of the price or the quality and durability of the materials.

I may have at this point tried all the local latex and latex hybrids, I’d have to recheck the thread about central Virginia stores. Do you know of any stores in Virginia that do a coil latex hybrid? That’s the one thing I’m curious about but haven’t had an opportunity to try.

I looked through your previous posts and I didn’t see the city or zip code where you live but post #2 here includes several links to some of the forum lists in Virginia (I’m guessing that you may be working through the Richmond list?).

I don’t keep a record of the individual mattresses that the retailers and manufacturers in the hundreds of forum lists throughout the forum carry on their floor (it would be a bigger job than anyone could keep up with in a constantly changing market) but checking their websites and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the lists that are in reasonable driving distance is always a good idea before you visit any store anyway. This will tell you which of them carry mattresses that would meet your specific criteria, are transparent about the quality and durability of the materials in their mattresses (see this article), and that carry the type of mattresses that you are interested in testing in the budget range you are comfortable with. Once you have checked their websites and/or talked with the ones that interest you then you will be in a much better position to decide on the ones that you are most interested in visiting based on the results of your preliminary research and conversations.

There are also some sources for innerspring/latex hybrids in post #2 here and the post it links to. Some of them have a dealer locator on their site or you could also call to see if any of them have any dealers in your area that would give you a chance to test their mattresses as well.

Also, I was wondering if you could explain the significance (if any) of a precompressed core (or if you’ve previously written about it, direct me to that thread)?

Precompressing a polyfoam layer before it’s used can help to open up some of the cell membranes in the foam which can help remove any “false firmness” from the layer and shorten the break in period.

Also, by the way, the Rep told me the holes are vertical in these beds, not horizontal. Correcting the above information.

I’m glad to see that they corrected themselves although it wouldn’t just be “these beds” because any latex that is made with pincores in a mold or on a belt would have vertical pincore holes.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Hi - here with an update and a question.

I got this mattress and it is actually 13". The top 3 inches are quilting with wool and silk, and some gel foam in quilting (rep had said less than a 1/2 inch previously.) I’m still not 100% on that, and was a bit annoyed that I didn’t bring a ruler to the store and push for more information when the initial specs of the layers did not add up to the total.

However, I’m very pleased with this mattresses performance for 3 P’s. It has a wonderfully buoyant feel, and balances my body almost like I’m floating in water. I flat out love the mattress.

One fine tuning issue I’m still struggling with is heat retention. I just don’t like the feeling of built-up warmth, which I especially feel under my back, as a back sleeper. After a month I’m still trying to figure out a way to troubleshoot this one issue for this otherwise ideal mattress (in other words, my body has not adjusted to it).

I have tried two versions of Outlast mattress pads with Gold and Gold Plus ratings, a Cirriform and Nacreous. They did not work, and the padding in them seemed to counteract the cooling benefits provided by the quilting shape to the top layer in the bed.

I tried a cooling gel foam mattress pad, convoluted 1.5 inches. It did not work, and the softness of it completely changed the performance of the bed. I cradled in it and woke up with neck pain.

I am sleeping with a Sleep Tite mattress protector now. I’m wondering if there is a mattress protector out there that is more breathable? It does seem slightly cooler without the protector… But I’m hesitant to sleep with no protection whatsoever.

I’m also considering buying a Celsion 1 inch latex topper (or another thickness if recommended). It’s offered in three firmness versions, 15, 21, and 27 ILD. Do you think that would help with coolness? Do you think I could get it in a firmness that complemented the bed, and didn’t cause me to “crater”, like with the gel foam topper? If my bed is a “medium” firmness, which firmness would you recommend, if so?

Thanks for any help and advice.

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

I got this mattress and it is actually 13". The top 3 inches are quilting with wool and silk, and some gel foam in quilting (rep had said less than a 1/2 inch previously.) I’m still not 100% on that, and was a bit annoyed that I didn’t bring a ruler to the store and push for more information when the initial specs of the layers did not add up to the total.

While I don’t know for certain … if the quilting is 3" thick then it’s more likely that there would be more than 1/2" of foam in the quilting (possibly closer to 2").

One fine tuning issue I’m still struggling with is heat retention. I just don’t like the feeling of built-up warmth, which I especially feel under my back, as a back sleeper. After a month I’m still trying to figure out a way to troubleshoot this one issue for this otherwise ideal mattress (in other words, my body has not adjusted to it).

I have tried two versions of Outlast mattress pads with Gold and Gold Plus ratings, a Cirriform and Nacreous. They did not work, and the padding in them seemed to counteract the cooling benefits provided by the quilting shape to the top layer in the bed.

I tried a cooling gel foam mattress pad, convoluted 1.5 inches. It did not work, and the softness of it completely changed the performance of the bed. I cradled in it and woke up with neck pain.

I am sleeping with a Sleep Tite mattress protector now. I’m wondering if there is a mattress protector out there that is more breathable? It does seem slightly cooler without the protector… But I’m hesitant to sleep with no protection whatsoever.

While it’s not always possible to to track down temperature regulation issues for any particular person on a specific mattress because there are so many variables involved (including your room temperature and humidity, your sheets and bedding and bedclothes, your mattress protector or any mattress pads you are using, and where you are in the “oven to iceberg” range) and some people can sleep warmer on mattresses that most people are generally fine with … there is more about tracking down a potential cause or causes for temperature regulation issues (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may be helpful.

The thin “membrane” type of protector you are using could certainly be contributing to the temperature issues you are having because they can restrict airflow to some degree and some people sleep warmer on them. There is more about the pros and cons of different types of mattress protectors in post #89 here.

I’m also considering buying a Celsion 1 inch latex topper (or another thickness if recommended). It’s offered in three firmness versions, 15, 21, and 27 ILD. Do you think that would help with coolness? Do you think I could get it in a firmness that complemented the bed, and didn’t cause me to “crater”, like with the gel foam topper? If my bed is a “medium” firmness, which firmness would you recommend, if so?

A topper can be a good solution for a mattress that is too firm and that just needs some additional softness and pressure relief (as long as it doesn’t have any soft spots or sagging in the sleeping surface) but I would be cautious about using a topper to try and “fix” temperature regulation issues because if a mattress is already a good match for you in terms of PPP then a topper can add too much additional softness and you could end up exchanging a temperature regulation issue for a back ache that is the result of sleeping on a mattress that is too soft. If some of the suggestions in the previous link (such as choosing a different mattress protector or different sheets etc) aren’t enough to solve any temperature regulation issues you are experiencing then I would consider a thinner mattress pad or topper made from natural fibers such as wool that can help maintain a more neutral sleeping temperature and have the least possible effect on the overall comfort and support of the mattress.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Thanks for your advice.

I think I’ll just try it with protector off for now, and see if it improves.

Do you have any recommendations for cooling pillow and sheets? Can they help?

[ATATAT]

For the record, I don’t recommend Outlast mattress pad toppers. They seem to just gather and hold heat. Maybe they work better for someone that’s sweating a lot, like a more extreme situation.

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

Do you have any recommendations for cooling pillow and sheets? Can they help?

Yes … sheets and pillows that are better at temperature regulation can certainly help with overall sleeping temperature.

The same general temperature regulation guidelines would apply for pillows as for mattresses. While I can’t make any specific suggestions for anything that you can “feel” because there are too many individual preferences involved and only your own experience can tell you whether any pillow works well for you … there is more information about choosing a pillow in the pillow topic here and the other topics it links to that should be helpful.

There is also more information about sheets and bedding in post #7 here and the other posts and sources of information it links to that should be helpful as well. Natural fabrics such as cotton, linen, or silk or “semi synthetic” fabrics such as viscose rayon (made from bamboo, beech and other viscose sources) will generally be better at regulating temperature than synthetic fabrics such as polyester. Linen and Silk in particular are very good at regulating temperature.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Thanks again Phoenix for the advice.

I need to update the specs b/c I finally got the complete story:

Restonic Utopia Destiny:
about 13" height
6" precompressed soy based poly foam core - 27 IFD, 1.8 lb density
2.15" Natural Vita Talalay - 24 IFD
2.15" Natural Vita Talalay - 15 IFD
1.5" High Density Super-soft foam
1" gel-infused quilting
.5" silk and wool
Thin layer of fire blocker

It’s really frustrating that I asked for this information several times and only am getting the full story now.

Phoenix - the rep says all materials are breathable, and should not cause heat buildup. What are your thoughts on that? If I’m still struggling with a heat issue, is it because of these top layers above the Talalay?

I’m still considering getting a Celsion 1" topper. Is is available anywhere other than Sleeplikeabear?

I’m also considering getting either a coolmax mattress pad and/or a coolmax topper cover. Do you have any thoughts on the coolmax material for pads and covers?

[ATATAT]

Also - the rep said all foams and fibers they use are open cell and breathable. I’m wondering if the fire blocker layer may be causing the heat build up - 3% Rayon fiber is listed on the law label, and I think I remember them saying they use Dacron, but I also remember a salesman saying something about wood pulp.

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

I need to update the specs b/c I finally got the complete story:

Restonic Utopia Destiny:
about 13" height
6" precompressed soy based poly foam core - 27 IFD, 1.8 lb density
2.15" Natural Vita Talalay - 24 IFD
2.15" Natural Vita Talalay - 15 IFD
1.5" High Density Super-soft foam
1" gel-infused quilting
.5" silk and wool
Thin layer of fire blocker

It’s really frustrating that I asked for this information several times and only am getting the full story now.

Thanks for updating the specs … and I agree that it’s unfortunate that you weren’t able to find them out before you made your purchase since the 2.5" of “unknown density” polyfoam on top of the latex in the quilting layers are thicker than I would normally be comfortable with and could be a weak link in the mattress.

Phoenix - the rep says all materials are breathable, and should not cause heat buildup. What are your thoughts on that? If I’m still struggling with a heat issue, is it because of these top layers above the Talalay?

All the foam that is generally used in mattresses (polyfoam, memory foam, latex foam) is open celled and “breathable” … it’s just a matter of degree and “how breathable” they are. Quilting foam is generally more breathable than other types of polyfoam that are used deeper in the mattress.

I don’t think that there is much that I can add to my comments in post #18 here about tracking down temperature issues. Mattresses that use thicker/softer foam comfort layers will generally sleep warmer than thinner or firmer comfort layers since you will sink into them more deeply and they are more insulating.

The first place I would start with temperature issues is your mattress protector and your sheets and bedding (your mattress protector in particular has a “semi breathable” membrane which can certainly affect sleeping temperature for some people).

I’m still considering getting a Celsion 1" topper. Is is available anywhere other than Sleeplikeabear?

I’m also considering getting either a coolmax mattress pad and/or a coolmax topper cover. Do you have any thoughts on the coolmax material for pads and covers?

There is some information about Celsion in post #4 here and about Coolmax in post #17 here. I don’t think that any of these would be a “magic bullet” solution but they might make a small difference. The only way to know for sure whether they would make “enough” difference would be based on your own personal experience.

I’m wondering if the fire blocker layer may be causing the heat build up - 3% Rayon fiber is listed on the law label, and I think I remember them saying they use Dacron, but I also remember a salesman saying something about wood pulp.

Rayon is a semi synthetic fiber that is made from some type of cellulosic material which includes bamboo and other types of wood pulp such as beech or eucalyptus. There is more about rayon in the post about sheets that I linked previously. It is generally very breathable and wicks moisture well so it wouldn’t generally be an issue with temperature regulation and would be similar to natural fibers.

Dacron is another name for polyester fiber. It would be more breathable than most foam layers since it’s a fiber but it can also sleep warmer than natural or semi synthetic fibers since it doesn’t absorb moisture as well as natural fibers such as cotton, rayon, or wool.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Thanks Phoenix

[ATATAT]

I’m still thinking about getting a 1" Celsion topper. Just wondering do you know anywhere that you can buy the new Graphite-infused Talalay as a layer or as a topper? Do you have any thoughts on how Celsion would compare to Graphite-infused Talalay regarding heat retention and breathability issues?

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

I’m still thinking about getting a 1" Celsion topper. Just wondering do you know anywhere that you can buy the new Graphite-infused Talalay as a layer or as a topper?

Not to my knowledge although you may wish to try Custom Design & Manufacturing of Latex Foam Products - Hamden, Connecticut to see if they can supply it.

Do you have any thoughts on how Celsion would compare to Graphite-infused Talalay regarding heat retention and breathability issues?

While I don’t have any personal experience with comparing them … they would probably be similar in terms of temperature regulation and the cover and your mattress protector and sheets would probably have just as big if not a bigger effect on temperature regulation than any differences between them.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Dear Phoenix - I opened up the mattress to see what I am dealing with. I found about 2.5 inches of foam in the quilting layer (looks completely normal, I’m not sure why they would call it gel foam.)

More disturbingly I found only one 2" layer of what is clearly Talalay. As you may recall this supposed to be Vita Talalay. The first layer has holes and is light colored. Under that I found an unidentifiable kind of foam with no holes whatsoever and a slightly yellower color.

Is it possible this second layer is nonetheless Vita Talalay?

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

I opened up the mattress to see what I am dealing with. I found about 2.5 inches of foam in the quilting layer (looks completely normal, I’m not sure why they would call it gel foam.)

This could certainly be a weak link in the mattress if the quilting foam is lower density. According to their specs 1" of the quilting foam would be polyfoam that has some type of gel infused inside it. It would still “look like” polyfoam.

[quote]More disturbingly I found only one 2" layer of what is clearly Talalay. As you may recall this supposed to be Vita Talalay. The first layer has holes and is light colored. Under that I found an unidentifiable kind of foam with no holes whatsoever and a slightly yellower color.

Is it possible this second layer is nonetheless Vita Talalay? [/quote]

No … if there are no pincores in the layer at all then it wouldn’t be Talalay latex although it could be continuous pour Dunlop latex.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Thanks for the info.

A missing 2" layer of latex that was replaced by polyfoam is either manufacturing error or fraud. It does not have the feel, texture, or smell of either Talalay or Dunlop. I’ve contacted the company and we’ll see how they proceed.

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

I’ve contacted the company and we’ll see how they proceed.

Thanks for letting us know what you found inside your mattress … and I’ll certainly be interested in what they have to say about the “mystery” layer.

Phoenix

[Nuclearmomb]

Ha! So much for Restonic being transparent!!! I have been at the 4 or 5 places around Rochester, NY that sell Restonics - they all play the name-change game, so you can’t compare the mattresses between stores, and confirm that this years’ model (with a new name) is the exact same mattress you tried on the showroom floor. The sales rep up here (Steve) hasn’t returned my calls or emails when I try to confirm what I’m looking at. Some salespeople tell me that the contents of a model are different than what other salespeople tell me, and what you describe sounds like what they call a “Camia” or Interlude or Belize (???) up here. NONE of the stores up here sells a model called the Utopia.
Because of this, I am hesitant to buy one of their mattresses, and have been looking a little closer at Jamestown mattresses.

[phoenix]

Hi Nuclearmomb,

Thanks for sharing your comments about the stores that are selling Restonic in your area.

Restonic is a licensee brand that is made by a group of private factories across the country but it certainly seems that the licensee factory in your area (Alliance Sleep Products) isn’t as transparent as some of the other Restonic licensees.

The only way to know whether there are any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress or to make meaningful comparisons with other mattresses (and to bypass the “name games”) is by knowing the specifics of the materials inside it and if it’s not possible to find out reliable and accurate information about what is inside any mattress you are considering I would avoid it completely.

In addition to this if it turns out that your mattress contains different materials from what you were specifically told was inside it I would also insist on a refund.

These types of games are deceptive and are much too common in the industry and it’s unfortunate that your Restonic licensee appears to be contributing to the problem more than helping to solve it by accurately disclosing the specifics of the materials in any mattress they make regardless of the name of the model on the label.

I should also mention that it’s often the local stores themselves that are the biggest reason for the “name games” since they all want to sell a mattress that they can “differentiate” from their competitors who are selling the same mattress so that they can discourage meaningful comparisons so they tell their local manufacturer to make a mattress with very slight differences and a different name so that consumers can’t cross shop their mattresses.

Phoenix

[ATATAT]

Do you know which licensee factory is in my area in central Virginia?

[phoenix]

Hi AT,

The Restonic licensees are listed here.

I believe that Johnson City Bedding Company is the licensee for Virginia but you may need to call them to find out for certain.

Phoenix