This place seems the right one to get reliable and objective info, finally!
I was about to give up, I am reading and reading info in Internet since days and still cannot find what I need.
So, I started a physically demanding job which does not leave me much time to sleep, and gives me often back pain.
My Mattress is not good, so my sleep is not relaxing and regenerating and deep as I need.
I also am often a bit nervous and so for me relaxing is generally quite difficult.
Reading of Memory Foam I have been fascinated by the idea of “weightless” because it gives me the idea of a very relaxed sleep like in a, hmm, how do you call it in English, sensory deprivation chamber?
But I am also reading about the possible problems.
I am male, 5.5 feet tall, 130 pound.
I do not have a fixed sleeping position so the Mattress should allow me to sleep in all positions (now I often partially wake up when I change position, because I do not feel comfortable).
I will use a rigid base like this (yes I live in Germany).
I do not want to spend too much (I cannot) and I do not need a Mattress which lasts forever, but I would be happy if for lets say 5 years it may give me a perfect relaxed deep regenerative healing sleep!
I was thinking about a Mattress with Polyurethane) below and Memory above.
Do you think I am right?
But, which thickness, density, shape and firmness should each of the two layers have, to give me what I need?
The first place I would start your research is the tutorial post here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choices. While many of the specifics mentioned on the forum in terms of manufacturers and sources would be more specific to North America … the basic guidelines would be common to any country (although you may need to translate some of the specs into metric such as lbs/ft3 to the Europoean equivalent of kg/m3 (there’s a density conversion page here)
[quote]Reading of Memory Foam I have been fascinated by the idea of “weightless” because it gives me the idea of a very relaxed sleep like in a, hmm, how do you call it in English, sensory deprivation chamber?
But I am also reading about the possible problems.[/quote]
The type of mattress or materials that are in your mattress are really a matter of preference so some people may have a strong preference for the “feel” of memory foam while others would never consider it and don’t like it at all. Your own testing and experience is really the best way to decide which type of mattress you prefer.
Regardless of which type of mattress or materials you prefer, it’s always a good idea to make sure that any mattress you are considering is a good match for you in terms of PPP and also uses good quality materials … especially in the upper layers which are the most likely to soften or break down prematurely. All materials have lower quality versions and higher quality more durable versions and you can’t “feel” the quality of the materials when you test a mattress because higher quality and lower quality materials can feel the same … at least for a little while. High quality materials can last for longer than the 5 years you are looking for while low quality material may last considerably less. Some of the links in the tutorial post include the minimum quality/durability guidelines I would suggest for different materials.
[quote]I was thinking about a Mattress with Polyurethane) below and Memory above.
Do you think I am right?
But, which thickness, density, shape and firmness should each of the two layers have, to give me what I need?[/quote]
Again … the type of materials you prefer are not a matter of right or wrong but a matter of personal preference. There are also too many unknowns, variables, and preferences between different people to use any kind of formula or “theory at a distance” to decide on which mattress or what specific design would be best for any individual person. There is more about this in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here.
If you follow the steps one by one you will have the best odds of buying a mattress that is the best match for the criteria of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
thanks for the answer, but I had read almost all of those info (which are pretty generic) already in the German websites, and some of them here.
I was rather looking for a more specific help on Memory Foam and the relation between density of the foam and weight of me.
For the Polyurethane I understood that mostly the weight of the sleeper has to do with the firmness, not with the density of the foam, but this can be not true for the Memory. And I am not speaking of tastes. One thing is if someone prefer a rather soft or rather firm Mattress, one thing is if for the technical properties of the Memory Foam a 130lbs person will never be able to sink enough on a 5lbs dense Memory and will not get neither the weightless feeling or the correct spine alignment.
This is the kind of info I am looking for, because there I have contradictory info and I suppose it is because they come from sellers, not from users.
Many reviews in Amazon are totally useless because I cannot understand anything from a “wonderful” if I donot know how much that person weight.
So, let’s say that I am decided to buy a Memory plus Poly Mattress.
So, tastes problem gone.
Now I need technical help beyond the matter of tastes, things like how thick and dense should be the Memory Foam for my weight.
A general 4lbs means nothing to me. Here in Germany I read for example that 5lbs is always better. Then I read that 5lbs is only good for heavy people. Then I read that 3" thick is the ideal. Then I read that to have the weightless feeling it should be 4 or more ". Then (here) I read that if it is too thick it would not have supportive effect for correct spine alignment because especially in the lumbal zone the supportive Poly would not be able to work through the thick Memory. Then I read that it is better a dense Memory with a soft Poly, then a soft Memory with a hard Poly.
Then I come here and understand how Latex works and I think “hmmm, would it make sense to buy a Latex Mattress to have the perfect elasticity and put a Memory on top of it?” and all my plans and selected Mattresses go in smoke (which is ok as far as I then find the right final choice).
So, I really need come tech help about the question of my weight and Memory, and about Poly or Latex (when using Memory on top) and the proportion of Memory and for example Poly (because very often I do not find two mattress with the same type and amount of Memory but different amounts of Poly. I find one with more Memory and less Poly, and one with less memory but more Poly than the other. And generally also the density changes, so I am forced to chose between more and denser memory but less and less dense Poly, or a bit less Memory but more Poly).
Sorry I am terrible with questions, I mean, I can’t ask a good question.
The density of memory foam is the single biggest factor in its durability but memory foam comes in many different versions and has a wide range of different properties (see post #9 here) regardless of density so the density is more about the durability than how it feels (although higher density memory foams can often but not always feel firmer than lower density).
There really is no formula that can tell you which design will be best for you based on your height and weight and preferences outside of the generic guidelines that are in the previous post I linked. Each person is different in terms of PPP. In terms of quality/durability I would suggest using the memory foam density guidelines here. There is also more about the factors that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress in post #4 here but density is the single biggest factor in durability.
The only way to know with any certainty how a mattress will feel, perform, and interact with your body is with your own personal testing or experience either before a purchase (if you test it locally) or after a purchase (if you purchase it online).
Durability is not my aim. Anything I will buy will be good enough to last 5 years at its best.
And I will probably need it for less than that or no more than that.
The point 1 about the certification, got it, here is all certificated, in Germany they are fanatic with these things.
The point about the composition, and all the other possible properties of a Memory form, forget it. I NEVER EVER saw in Germany ANY producer or seller which give those info.
The only info available on memory foam is its density. Then somebody talks of special Memory which is not so slow responsive, but they give no info, and generally it is a Memory with 4lbs so it seems to me that it is faster because less dense.
So, I am forced to chose a Memory only judging from density and thickness.
So basically, I can chose 4 or 5lbs, and a range from 2.75 to almost 4". The Poly under it is generally between 3" and 4.75" and it is not very dense, between 2.5 and 3.75 lbs.
My till now first choice for price/performance has a Memory of 2.75" and 5lbs on top of a Poly of 3.5" and 3.12lbs. Flat surface, no shaped cut.
Now I see one with 3.15" memory of 4lbs, a thin layer of Calipore under it, and a 4" 4lbs Poly. It is a bit more expensive but still in my budget. And the Memory is shaped with waves (7 zones style).
And it open the kind of question I had in my mind, like for example the difference between a thinner layer of denser memory or a slighlty thicker but less dense one.
I am looking just now another website with some more interesting offers.
Should I post you my top choices to have your opinion about the possible differences for someone like me?
What would you say for example about these two?
[quote]The point about the composition, and all the other possible properties of a Memory form, forget it. I NEVER EVER saw in Germany ANY producer or seller which give those info.
The only info available on memory foam is its density. Then somebody talks of special Memory which is not so slow responsive, but they give no info, and generally it is a Memory with 4lbs so it seems to me that it is faster because less dense.[/quote]
The information here is much more detailed than you would find at most manufacturers or retailers so that consumers can have access to information that may not be available to them otherwise or make more informed choices but all you really need to know is the specifics of the mattress layers (thickness and type of foam) and the foam densities so you can identify any potential weak links in the mattress and make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses and then your own testing and experience will tell you everything else you need to know about a mattress.
I would avoid memory foam lower than 4 lb density or any mattress that your own testing doesn’t indicate is a good match for you in terms of PPP or that doesn’t compare well to other mattresses based on the criteria of your personal value equation.
I would use 1.8 lb polyfoam (as per the links in the tutorial post) as a minimum guideline for the polyfoam in a memory foam mattress with 1.5 lbs being a minimum for lower budget mattresses. These are “quality/durability” guidelines but any density of polyfoam or memory foam can be softer or firmer or have different properties from each other regardless of whether they have the same density which is why you need to test the mattress.
You may be making things more complex than they need to be and I would discourage trying to “design” or “predict” the best mattress for you based on theory or specs.
If you can’t test a mattress in person or are making an online purchase then the knowledge and experience of the retailer or manufacturer and their ability to help you choose the mattress they make that has the best odds of success (in a more detailed conversation) along with their return policy (in case in spite of “best efforts” you made a choice that isn’t suitable for you) would likely become a much more important part of your personal value equation.
I’m happy to help you identify any “weak links” in a mattress or to make some general comments about them but how they feel and perform or which mattress purchase is most suitable for you is always up to your own testing and experience and your personal value equation. I’m happy to help with “how” to choose but the specifics of “what” to choose is up to each person.
There are no weak links in this mattress and the both the memory foam and the polyfoam base layer are high quality and durable materials. It would certainly make a good choice in terms of quality if it was a suitable choice in terms of PPP and compared well to other mattresses that are available to you.
This would also be a suitable choice in terms of quality/durability for most people. The 4 lb memory foam on top is “medium” quality/density and is a lower density and less durable foam than the first option but if you prefer the “feel” of the 4 lb memory foam in this mattress vs the 5 lb memory foam in the previous one it would still be a suitable choice as long as you were in an “average” or lower weight range (which you are). While it doesn’t apply in your case … I would tend to be cautious and reduce or even eliminate the use of 4 lb memory foam in weight ranges above about 200 lbs or so but at your weight durability wouldn’t be an issue. 4 lb polyfoam is a very high quality material and you don’t see it that often in a mattress (I would want to confirm that this was correct). Assuming that the 4 lb polyfoam is correct there would be no weak links in this mattress for your weight either assuming that the calipore or “fast dry” foam is relatively thin (under an inch or so).
I understand what you mean and why you cannot (and also won’t) say WHAT to choose. And I appreciate your helping effort and style.
I just got confused by reading from different sources that any 5lb Memory would be unable to mold under the few pressure of a light-weighted person, and would not give the expected weightless relieve, feeling more like, wood.
I would not like that!
But I got what you mean. It is then almost impossible to know how a Mattress is, if not trying.
I have read some reviews, a couple of people of my weight find it hard. Hmmm.
I never used memory so I have no idea how my tastes should be. I can only say that I want the weightless feeling
Anyway I will try to go to a shop (not many here in town) at least to try the feeling. But yes, I was thinking to buy online.
So, till now I have these 4 options.
So quick resume, in order of price:
memory 2.75", 5lb, flat, with Poly 3.54" and 3.12lb, Medicott Silverguard external cover. Firmness not eligible, fixed choice 2.5 (mid firm, supposedly for people from 150lb, but they say from 110). 269 euro
Same densities ad shape, but the Memory is slightly thinner, 2.36", and the Poly thicker, 4.72 (I can only suppose that this would give more supportive pressure from below, but less weightless feeling. Am I right?). Firmness eligible 2 or 3. Cover of antibacterial Amicor. 299 euro.
3.15" memory of 4lbs, 0.8" Calipore under it, and 4" 2.8lb Poly (you were right, my mistake, it was not 4lb). Both foams shaped in waves with a 7 zones structure. Cover of Lyocell (not antibacterial). Firmness 2. 375 euro.
2.75 memory of 5.3lb, plus 5.12" Poly of 3.4lb. No shape. Antibacterial Amicor cover. Firmness eligible from 1 to 3. 379 Euro.
I then find one (but now the budget goes away) where the two foams are shaped in a way that where the Poly is 2.75", the Memory is 4", and vice versa. The Memory is 4" in the heavy/bright zones like shoulder.
You write that it would be good to choose a rather thin Memory. I did not get why, and I would not be able to determine how thin.
What can you tell me? I would say that they all are above your minimum suggested specifics, so they all should be fine as quality.
I would not be able to say what COULD theoretically be the difference. Can you?
I also would like to understand something: is it true that the better performances come from a complete Mattress where the two foams are glued or anyway there together, rather than buying for example a Mattress plus a separate Memory Topper?
This was my initial intention, but a seller told me it was not a good choice.
I still do not get why.
If it can be a good choice I could even buy a Latex Mattress as base. Do you think that would make sense combined with a Memory Topper? Or the two materials do not work well together?
The term “weightless” has no specific definition. It would apply to any mattress where you didn’t perceive any pressure points, tension, discomfort, or tension in any of your joints or tissues (including your back). It’s not specific to any material or mattress design but is a function of how well a mattress matches your needs and preferences in terms of PPP. One mattress may feel “weightless” to one person while to another may be very uncomfortable. The term even applies to a position on an adjustable bed (also called the zero gravity position) regardless of the mattress that is used on it (see here).
Tempurpedic also has a line of mattresses called their weightless collection which uses thinner layers of memory foam over a more resilient material underneath it which provides a more “floating” sensation than thicker layers of memory foam. Of course there are many other examples of this type of construction as well and some mattresses that feel “weightless” to a particular person may not have any memory foam in it at all.
All of these use good quality materials and there are no weak links in any of them in terms of quality/durability that I can see but of course they would all have a different “feel” and performance in terms of PPP and only your own testing or experience can tell you if a specific design and combination of materials is suitable or a preference for you. You can’t tell with any certainty how a mattress will “feel” from specs unless you have personal experience with very similar material combinations and designs.
The distribution of support under the different parts of your body would contribute to a subjective “weightless feeling” and the thickness of the memory foam in a mattress isn’t what creates this “feeling”. Your own experience is the only way to know how “weightless” this mattress feels for you.
Memory foam changes in softness based on temperature, humidity, the length of time it is compressed, and pressure and can continue to soften over the course of the night. This means that layers of memory foam that are thicker than you need can be a little bit more “risky” in terms of alignment because you can start the night in good alignment but as the foam continues to soften under the heavier parts of your body over the course of the night you could wake up out of alignment with pain or discomfort in your back. There is no specific amount of memory foam that can be used as a specific guideline for what is enough or not enough for any particular person because of all the variables involved in both the mattress design and each person’s physiology and your actual experience on a mattress is really the only way to know if a mattress is a good match for you. This risk of waking up with back pain or discomfort can be reduced by using thinner layers of memory foam that are “just enough” for the body type and sleeping style of the person on the mattress because if you are closer to the more resilient support layers that are not temperature sensitive then there isn’t as much “room” for the heavier parts of your body to sink down until they reach a layer that isn’t temperature sensitive.
Outside of testing an actual mattress “as a whole” with a more scientific method that simulates actual sleeping conditions and comparing it to the same test under the same conditions on a different mattress there is no way to objectively compare the exact durability of one mattress to another. The closest you can come is by looking at all the factors that can affect durability that are mentioned in post #4 here and the other posts it links to. In some cases the useful life of a mattress has as much to do with the person and where in their range of comfort and support the mattress falls in than it does on the actual materials themselves so the materials in a mattress may have softened “enough” that it leads to the loss of comfort and/or support for one person but not for another even though the amount of foam softening or breakdown in both mattresses may be identical. This wouldn’t show up in mattress durability testing which couldn’t take the variables of each person into account.
You can read a little more about the pros and cons of having glued layers vs separate layers (which would apply to a topper as well) in post #8 here. While a separate topper would act more independently, feel a little softer, and be a little more subject to breakdown from compression forces than the same material inside a mattress … it also has the flexibility of being able to replace it without replacing the entire mattress so over time the extra topper may last a little less time than the same material inside a mattress but being able to just replace the topper would have cost benefits over replacing the entire mattress when the top layers soften and break down.
The key is being able to test the specific mattress / topper combination you are considering for PPP because having two variables in your mattress choice (one for the mattress and then another one for a topper) can be more difficult than only having one variable in your purchase decisions. The same topper can feel different on top of different mattresses so knowing which topper to choose without testing the combination together can be almost as challenging as choosing the mattress in the first place. There are some topper guidelines in post #8 here that may be helpful if you decide to go in this direction but if you did this I would first choose the mattress and then use your actual experience on the mattress without the topper as a reference point to help you choose the most suitable topper.
Any two materials can work well together if the feel of the combination is what someone prefers. A “hybrid” comfort layer (whether as part of the mattress design or with a mattress/topper combination) with a relatively thin layer of memory foam over a more resilient layer like latex can combine the properties and “feel” of both materials which some people would prefer over the “feel” of either material alone. This would be a preference choice and not a “better worse” choice and only each person can decide on their own preferences.
I finally bought the option 1.
Hard…
The Memory Foam does not seem so hard, even if to be sincere, I did not notice any particular Memory effect, perfect modelling, or weightless.
I think that the hardness comes from the Poly.
For this reason I now decided to try the option 4 first, where even if the Memory is even more dense than in the 1, at least the Poly can be chosen in soft version.
I see that they make an almost identical Mattress, where the Memory is exactly identical, but the Poly is slightly denser and has got 3D cuts (like cubes) in its surface, organized in zones, so that theoretically it should make it easier the sinking where it is more needed, like shoulders and pelvis.
Do you think these cuts works, I mean, do you think that having the two foams “glued” together, if on the surface of the Poly there are those cuts, it can give better air circulation (less sweating) and more sinking for the shoulder than the identical mattress without cuts?
Ordering the two is not an option.
Surface modification or “cuts” can certainly have an effect on the “feel” and the softness of a foam layer (or in different areas as a method of zoning). Foam that has an egg crate shape for example will be softer than the same type of foam that is a solid layer.
As far as ventilation it could have some effect but when you lie on it the foam on the surface will be compressed and the channels will likely be partially or fully blocked so the effect on airflow would probably be fairly small. It would depend on the specifics of the shape, the depth of the cuts, the type and firmness of the foam, and on how much they stay open when you lie on it (which will also depend on body weight) but I don’t think it would make as much difference as some of the other methods of improving temperature regulation.
so, I cannot get the link to the image to work properly. I attach the picture, I hope it works. So you can see the cuts.
Do you have experience with this kind of cuts and could you tell if they are supposed to increase the sinking of shoulders and the air circulation under the Memory Foam (these cuts, as said, are just on the surface of the Poly Foam “glued” under the Memory Foam, which instead is flat and without any shape).
The man told me that the two Mattress are pretty identical and that the cuts do almost nothing because according to him any Memory Foam Mattress has got already a “zone” factor due to the ability of Memory Foam to conform to the Body Shape.
I personally think, also because of what you told me here, that 2.75" of Memory Foam are not able to fill all curves and “empty spaces” of the body, especially sleeping on one side, and that therefore the support of the Poly Foam will have an important role, which means that if the Poly is just one piece without any zone, it will give the same pressure everywhere, while if there are cuts/zones, it will for example give less pressure in the shoulders zone…
Am I wrong? Specially speaking of this kind of cuts…
Yes … they will have “some” effect in the relative softness of each zone in the mattress. The areas with more cuts will be softer to some degree. I don’t know how much effect they will have and the only way to compare it to a similar layer that doesn’t have the surface modification would be to use actual testing equipment or to find out the relative ILD in each section which I doubt will be available to you. As I mentioned in my last post I would suspect that the channels would be mostly closed when you lie on the mattress so I doubt that they would have much effect on the mattress in terms of airflow and temperature regulation because the warmer air from the sleeping surface would still need to go through the memory foam itself to reach the channels in the polyfoam underneath it and be channeled away so even if the channels stayed open I think the ventilation effect would be somewhat limited.
The memory foam isn’t the only layer that compresses and forms the pressure relieving cradle and “fills in the curves” so the thickness of the memory foam isn’t the only part of the upper layers that will compress. How much a foam layer under the memory foam compresses also depends on the weight of that part of the body and the body surface area that is in contact with the mattress and the properties of the memory foam above it. Foam also has a response curve that gets firmer as it is compressed more which also affects how far each part of the body sinks in. All of these factors together (as well as other technical details of each layer) is how a mattress either does or doesn’t provide good alignment for different body types or sleeping position.
I think you may be becoming overinvolved in mattress specs and theory. The specs you are trying to “decipher” are incomplete anyway and in the end won’t tell you what you want to know about how the mattress will work for you in real life which can only be known based on your own actual experience.
yes, that is where I have found the image.
The link was anyway more for you than for me
At the end the attachment worked anyway.
Yes I understood that the specs alone do not guarantee any precise help.
But well, a bit of theory helped me in understanding many things till now.
I also try to inform myself as well as possible to reduce the amount of buying and sending back.
But at the end as you say I still have to try, to understand really.
Ok, When I find the right one I tell you which one was.
