Help me understand progressive

My search is going slowly as other aspects of my life take priority…anyhow…thanks a lot for the great information!

I called Sleeping Organic, and talked with Chris. He was very helpful - knowledgeable and patient answering questions without any high pressure sales techniques. A very enjoyable conversation.

I learned that their Dunlop is made by Latex Green and their Talalay is made by Radium. I asked him for a specific recommendation based on our in person experience trying the Savvy Rest. He had specific ILD numbers on hand that Savvy Rest uses, and mentioned that he keeps samples of the Coco latex they use around for accurate comparisons. How great is that! He said that the soft Talalay they use might be slightly firmer than the one Savvy Rest uses, but overall a configuration of Soft Talalay/Med Dunlop/Firm Dunlop in their model should be very comparable to the SR I tried in person. After describing the two SR configurations we like best, he recommended we go with Soft/Med/Firm rather than Soft/Firm/Firm. He didn’t think that at my weight the Med middle layer would be problematic for stomach sleeping, and he said that most of the layer exchanges he sees are from people returning firmer layers for softer ones.

He also had great information about their covers, and could compare them specifically to the SR. He said that SR uses 1.5lb of wool per yard, and he uses 2.2 lb per yard - so a bit more. They have sourced a 100% organic cotton knit to use as the ticking, and are changing over from a 80/20 blend with polyester. They are also changing to using metal zippers instead of plastic. With those changes, he felt the cover would be very similar to the Savvy Rest, and its level of snugness should be similar. I also asked about the possibility of a non-wool cover, as I have allergies to wool. He said that the wool is very rarely an issue, and if I wanted to order the wool cover and it turns out I do have an allergic reaction, they can do a cover exchange for an all cotton version.

So I think that I am going to order from them. I am also considering SleepEZ. SleepEZ’s price is a bit lower, but I think that the ability to get a quilted non-wool cover if I need it as well as the location of Sleeping Organic are going to tip the balance for me. I expect I will be in the Charleston area over the holidays this year, so if I order prior to the holidays and have some time to evaluate the configuration of my initial order, if it turns out I think I’ll need a layer exchange, I would be able to go by their showroom in person over the holidays to try out a variety of configurations to inform my exchange choice. Those two “peace of mind” features are worth the slightly higher price for me.

I have ordered the West Elm Boerum bed frame, and am waiting for it to arrive. Once it does I will place my mattress order - very exciting!

Hi awoods,

Thanks for the comments and the update … I appreciate it!

It sounds like you have done some great research and are close to making a decision.

As you know … I think highly of both Sleeping Organic and SleepEZ and both of them are members of the site and if you have talked with both of them then you certainly won’t go wrong with either one as a final choice :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

Thanks so much for all your help Phoenix! I made my decision, and placed my order this evening. I went with Sleeping Organic, and ordered the “Leaf” with Soft Talalay/Med Dunlop/Firm Dunlop. Can’t wait to get it!

Hi awoods,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding … and as you know I think you made a great choice!

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your feedback once you’ve received it.

Phoenix

My new mattress came yesterday - I took a series of pics while assembling

Boerum bedframe from west elm

Mattress cover - very high quality material. The zipper is very solid and metal. The top and sides are quilted, and the bottom is more canvas like. The top zips completely off. The wool does have a “sheepy” smell to it. We hung it on a clothes line for most of the day before assembling. The smell does seem to be fading - hopefully it will dissipate completely. I am allergic to wool, but so far, have not felt any itchyness through the cotton cover. In contrast, I thought laying on the Savvy Rest mattress in the store was itchy.

Bottom layer - firm dunlop. It was very hard to get this piece positioned in the cover. The latex seems about 2 inches too big for the cover side to side. But we did better positioning the later layers, so I think this was more technique of assembly than an actual issue.

Next layer - medium dunlop. Kind of hard to tell which way on the layer should be “up”. Defaulted to making the labels right side up.

Top layer - soft talalay. One of the things I was surprised by was that the non-split configuration was 2 separate pieces that had been glued together. You can see the seam in the top layer here. Is this normal? I expected one solid piece. Not really a big deal, just wasn’t what I expected.

Cover all zipped shut.

Dust mite encasement. Hard to work it onto the mattress - but got there in the end.

Mattress protector next (European Sleep Design stretch cotton)

All made up!

I’ve slept on it for one night, and my initial impression is that it is quite a bit firmer than the s/m/f Savvy Rest that I tried. I really wanted my first night’s sleep to be great. But it just wasn’t. I didn’t sleep all that well, had a hard time getting comfortable as it felt a bit too “hard”. An odd feeling, I didn’t feel an specific pressure points, just an overall sensation of not cushy. Mainly an issue with getting to sleep, I didn’t wake up with any pain anywhere, so that’s good. Support was excellent. Hopefully I just need a bit of time for the mattress to go through initial break in and softening, and for my body to adjust after being accustomed to a pillowtop innerspring. Bit nervous tho…as the first night wasn’t that magic success one hopes for. But I’m not going to make any changes and just give my body some time to adjust.

Hi awoods,

Thanks for the update and feedback and for the pictures (here and in your other topic about the sleep design protector) … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

Your setup looks great and you certainly made some good choices.

This is a fairly normal experience fitting the bottom layer into a tight fitting cover.

This is also normal for Talalay latex. The molds that are used to manufacture the latex are mainly twin XL (with some queen sizes) and anything bigger than twin (or a few queen sizes or full size that have been cut from a queen) will have a glue seam (see post #2 here).

Once again … this is also very normal. Latex is a very different material and it can take a little time for the mattress to break in and for your body to get used to a new sleeping surface and this is more the rule than the exception when you purchase a mattress that is different from the one that you are used to sleeping on (see post #3 here).

Not waking up with any pain or discomfort is a very good sign :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I’d be interested in comments about the bed frame if you want to share. What do you think of the quality, is the finish nice, once together does it seem solid and any other observations you have about the bed or the seller.

To the OP, yes, I would also be interested with your experience with both West Elm frame (and slats) and Sleeping Organic. I’m in a similar process (just put order for frame with West Elm) and was planning to go with Sleeping Organic once the frame delivery date is set.

And also your mattress protector, we have a newborn, and feel it’s necessary to protect the mattress a little more as (small house) the baby will be on the mattress a lot.

Thanks Phoenix for the encouraging words and confirming that what I’m experiencing is normal:) Night 2 was marginally better. I could fall asleep easier, but would wake up about every 2 hours. But unlike the first night I didn’t lay there a long time trying to get back to sleep when I did wake up. So that seems positive.

ekim & blackrider, the west elm frame is very nice. The mango wood is absolutely gorgeous! The finish is dark, but not so dark that it hides the beautiful wood grain. The slats are nice and sturdy and have a ribbon they are stapled to at equal intervals, so you don’t have to fidget with spacing them evenly. The frame as a whole Is quite sturdy, but the mounting hardware and pre drilled holes were not perfectly aligned, so my husband struggled a bit to put together. If you are not handy, it is worth having the in home setup. Also we had one minor problem, one of the mounting brackets had a broken weld. When contacting the company, they offerered to do an exchange of the entire bed frame! Apparently they can’t get individual replacement parts. So check all the hardware when you unpack it. In the end, we decided to just take the broken bracket to a local welder and have it fixed rather than go through the hassle of an exchange. The matching nightstands are back ordered, so still waiting on them.

Sleeping Organic has been great - very knowledgeable and no pressure on the phone. Really listened, and answered my specific concerns. Everything arrived promptly, and well packaged. I’m very happy with my vendor choice.

The mattress protector is great for me, I just want body oil and unlikely spill protection for adults. It isn’t water proof though, so something to be aware of with a baby. The material looks absorbent enough for my needs, but my priority was on breath ability over waterproofness.

Thanks OP for your attention. With the mattress protector, I noticed that you jumped from weighing Sleeping Organic vs Savvy Rest to ultimately going with European Sleep Design. Can you share that process, or anything interesting that led to that decision? I believed you mentioned concern about wool, so that probably knocked Sleeping Organic out. ESD permits washing and drying with the hot setting, which should come in handy with the dust mite concern.

Around how much was the ESD mattress protector? I looked on the website and it wasn’t obvious. I was looking at the mattress pad at CozyPure (among others).

To clarify, the mattress & cover are from Sleeping Organic - the “Leaf” model. I chose Sleeping Organic over Savvy Rest both because of the lower price, and because Savvy Rest does not allow returns, whereas Sleeping Organic does. I wasn’t comfortable making this large of a purchase without a return policy. I got the standard wool/cotton quilted cover from Sleeping Organic. So far, even though I am allergic to wool, it is heavy enough cotton that it does not trigger my allergy. But I was happy to know that if it was a problem, I could exchange it for an all cotton version. I wanted to try the wool one despite my allergy because will compresses less over time, and because it is more dust mite resistant. The cotton mattress protector (goes over the mattress cover to keep it from getting dirty) is from ESD. The ESD Protector page has details on the it, including its price & my thoughts on it.

I’ve now been sleeping on my mattress for 7 nights. Around night 4, I felt like I was adjusting to the feeling of latex - no longer feeling so weird. I slept for maybe 3 or 4 hour stretches at a time, but still have not slept well a whole night. I think that my comfort layer might not be soft enough to provide me enough pressure relief and secondary support. Each day I’ve been walking on my knees over the bed surface to hasten break in, and that has resulted in some softening, but not much. How much softening should I expect from latex?

I had intended to sleep on the mattress as is for 2 weeks before making any changes, but I’m starting to develop enough pain, that I’m not sure that waiting 2 weeks is feasible. So let me try to be specific about the pain so you can offer advise. My normal sleeping position is unusual - imagine how a ballerina’s legs look when in a pirouette - I sleep on my stomach with my legs in that position, one bent, the other straight. This leaves a small hollow under my hip joint where the bent leg meets the body. On this mattress, I believe that my bent knee is not sinking in far enough, and therefore that hollow under my hip is unsupported. I can slide my hand into the gap easily. This is resulting in the development of pain in my hip joint. On my old pillowtop mattress, I sank far enough into the comfort layer that there was no gap (I still have it and I checked), and never experienced any issues with hip pain. So I am thinking I need to sink into the surface of the comfort layer a bit more to get proper secondary support. The primary support has been fine - absolutely no lower back pain or swayback type problems from sinking in too much. If I straighten both of my legs, I do notice that my knees don’t get good pressure relief. I don’t sleep on my side, but for further information, on my side, my hips sink in a comfortable amount, but my shoulder does not - it feels quite crunched. Laying that way for a small amount of time is uncomfortable.

Overall I like the feel of latex, and am hoping that I just need some fine tuning. So I have two questions

  1. Should I continue trying to get used to the current configuration for another week before adjusting anything? Last night I found I was experiencing enough pain that I was modifying my sleeping posture to try to avoid pain, which doesn’t really seem like a productive test.
  2. I’m thinking that the next step for me to try is to remove the wool quilted top of the mattress cover, and place the stretchy cotton mattress protector directly over the latex to find out if that allows me to sink in enough to make a difference. Does that seem like a reasonable first modification to try?

Hi awoods,

Latex is the most durable of all the foam materials so the cover will also lose some of its initial stiffness but the latex will soften up “a little” but not a lot.

Your sleeping position is somewhat unusual (and risky) and your mattress is “in the range” that would generally be suitable for you and wouldn’t generally be too firm for most people (if anything stomach sleepers may sometimes need to use a firmer top layer) so I don’t really know what to suggest outside of “best judgement” and some trial and error based on your actual sleeping experience. If you believe your mattress is too firm then there are some suggestions in post #2 here that may be helpful but if you do decide to make any changes to your layering then the first suggestion I would make is a more extended conversation with Sleeping Organic. While it would be more risky in terms of alignment … you may find that you are an “exception” to theory that will do better with a softer Dunlop middle layer.

I think that your sleeping position may need some adjusting anyway because it is certainly risky and could cause issues in the longer term but in general I would tend to wait a minimum of two weeks (longer is better) unless it’s really not possible based on your symptoms. With your current configuration the only softer choice would be to exchange one of your deeper layers for something softer.

Yes … this is one of the suggestions in the post I linked and it would be well worth trying to see if it makes a difference. It would also be worth trying a thin pillow under your pelvis/lower abdomen to see if this helps as well.

Phoenix

Would swapping the Dunlop med middle layer for Talalay do anything? Just throwing out ideas since I’m assuming Talalay might be a little more plush feeling.

We are doing straight Dunlop, but that’s more because we never tried anyplace that had Dunlop core with Talalay comfort.

Thank you very much for the thoughtful response Phoenix. I definitely don’t fit into “average” for sleep posture. I know all of the risks associated with stomach sleeping, but have found it to be the only position that doesn’t cause me pain. No idea why really. I have had a couple of surgeries (e.g. a shoulder repair from a car accident) that have required me to retrain myself to sleep on my back or side for extended amounts of time (months). I have found that both back and side sleeping cause me quite a bit of pain, and I was so glad to be able to go back to sleeping in the position that works for me when those surgery recoveries were over. I do hope that the springyness of latex is going to allow me to explore back and side sleeping in future. So my goal is to find a mattress configuration that works for the sleeping position I know works for me, even though it is a highly unusual one, while preferably leaving me open to experiment with other sleeping postures in future.

Last night I zipped off the the cotton/wool top, and left the bottom & sides of the cover in place and put the ESD stretchy cotton mattress protector directly over the latex. Wow - what a difference that makes! It is much, much softer feeling! The latex conforms to my body well, and fills in that gap under my hip. It feels much “cushier” that with the cotton/wool cover. The latex has a much different feel, my husband described it as jello like - kind of jiggly feeling. I had significantly less hip pain this morning when I woke up. However, it may have softened things a bit too much. I also had a small amount of lower back soreness, indicative of swayback. Also, my husband has been loving the original configuration and sleeping like a rock. But this morning, he said that he had some lower back pain (he’s a side sleeper). We’ll see if he can tolerate another night or two on this configuration, as I’d like to try it for a little bit longer. If the stretchy cover continues to be too soft, we could try making our layers top to bottom soft/firm/med to see if this provides us both the alignment support we need and gives me the surface softness I need.

Regarding ways of making things softer with the cotton/wool cover in place, I agree that trying to swap out one of the lower layers for a softer material seems risky. Blackriderx, when we were doing our in person testing at Savvy Rest, I had actually thought that Soft Talalay/Med Talalay/Firm Dunlop was going to be my preferred configuration so we made a point to test that. Surprisingly (to us) both my husband and I agreed that the Med Talalay in the middle did not provide enough support. The Savvy Rest dealer I visited didn’t have any soft dunlop for a comparison as a middle layer. So I have not in person experience with it, but would be hesitant that it would not be enough primary support. Sleeping Organic does offer extra soft Talalay, so it is possible that with the cotton/wool cover I could change my top layer for extra soft. When I talked with Chris on the phone initially, he indicated that their soft Talalay was just a touch less soft than Savvy Rest’s. I asked if I should start with their soft or extra soft and he recommended starting with the soft, and switching to extra soft only if needed. So that is still a possibility, but I do wonder if the extra soft with the wool/cotton cover would provide enough contouring, or if like with the soft, the contouring of the latex would be masked by the cotton/wool cover.

My husband is in favor of keeping the original configuration but adding a thinner soft latex topper for me to sink into. I want to experiment with what we have already before doing that, but have to be mindful of wearing out his patience. I worry that adding a 1-2" topper would likely fix things for me, but might put his alignment at risk.

Fine tuning is tricky! But last night seemed to have been a step toward learning what fine tuning we need. Thanks for listening and for all the advice!

Hi awoods,

The “jiggly” comment is fairly typical for people that sleep directly on Talalay and your experience with the additional contouring and “cushy” feeling with sleeping directly on the latex is also fairly common. The tradeoff is that without the wool you will lose some of the temperature regulating benefits of wool and some of the less lively and more relaxed surface feel that comes from wool as well.

It’s usually a good idea to try any change for at least a few days to make sure that your experience is more of a “pattern” than an “anomaly” but if the back pain continues then it does sound like this may be a little too soft for you.

It may also be worth trying with the cover on top but unzipped to see if this is somewhat “in between”. If this works well then it may “point to” the cover working well over time as it stretches a little and becomes a little looser.

This would be a fair “jump” in terms of firmness and you may end up “jumping over” the layering that works best for you and I would tend to take a “one increment at a time” approach with making adjustments. In this case that would be (from top to bottom) M/S/F which would have a little firmer sleeping surface but would have a little more give underneath it. With M/F on top you would have a much firmer sleeping surface.

Given your experience with back pain sleeping directly on the latex I would also guess that the softer top layer would be a little more risky. If I was to make a change then I would probably consider a softer middle Dunlop layer to add any additional softness because it is a little more “supportive” than Talalay but of course in the end only your own experience will really be able to assess which combination works best for you when you are “outside the averages”.

One other option that may be worth considering is a shredded latex topper which can add some additional softness and “cush” but would be less risky in terms of alignment because the latex pieces will displace more and be more “allowing” under the more “pointy” parts of the body but will compress more under the parts of the body that have a larger surface area.

It can be especially tricky when you are somewhat “outside the averages” but I think that you are certainly in the range and that you have some good options to get to “perfect” … as lone as your husband is OK with a little bit more fine tuning. A little bit of frustration now will be well worth it because when you find the best configuration for both of you then you will have it for many years to come.

Phoenix

Thanks, this is a good suggestion. I do wish that the cover had a bit of stretch, it is a completely not stretchy material, so I’m not sure how much it will loosen over time.

I think I explained myself poorly. Using top to bottom, I was suggesting S/F/M, so that the soft layer is still on top for its conforming ability, but moving the firm layer to the middle to stop me sinking in quite as far into the middle layer. I agree that going M/F/S would be too big of a jump. Can you clarify, would M/S/F be more or less of a jump than S/F/M?

Thanks, this is great input as I don’t have the ability to try out soft dunlop locally.

I had been looking at those and wondering about them. I mentioned it to my husband as a possibility yesterday, and he didn’t like the idea, he’s worried that it would be fiddly & feel lumpy. And I share his concern on both those points, although to a bit lesser extent. In your experience are they lumpy, or need frequent adjustment?

Any thoughts on how adding a polyester filled comforter on top of the original configuration of S/M/F with cotton/wool cover would be as an approximation for how a topper might feel? I have several extra comforters of varying fill density I could experiment with before ordering a topper. Would it help me to know if adding the extra softness on top will cause him alignment problems? Or is it just too much of an apples to oranges comparison to be relevant?

Hi awoods,

OK … this makes more sense and it would be a “one step” change in support. The M/S/F layering would be a “one step” change in surface softness and pressure relief. They are both “one step” changes but are designed to accomplish different things (one is more about support and the other is more about pressure relief).

It certainly doesn’t feel lumpy to me (quite the opposite it feels soft and “cushy”) and when we use it we also don’t need to make frequent adjustments.

“Feel” is too subjective for me to guess how it would feel for someone else even if I knew how that particular combination would feel for me. The polyester fiber would provide some “point specific” pressure point relief and softness (but won’t redistribute pressure across the body surface to the same degree or provide the same secondary support as a foam layer) and it would probably reduce the ability of the latex to contour to some degree as well so it will simultaneously add “some” surface softness but reduce the contouring softness of the softer latex underneath it.

Having said that … anything is worth trying in you have it on had so you can see how it feels for you. I would keep in mind that a comforter will be less densely filled and will be less resilient than a mattress pad or topper that uses the same material.

Phoenix

Thanks for clarifying!

That’s great to hear! I got 2 shredded latex pillows as a freebie along with the mattress. My husband didn’t like the feel of it as a pillow and isn’t using his. I am finding I like them a lot for lounging, but prefer my minimal down pillow for sleeping. Since they have zippers so the stuffing level can be adjusted, I might also experiment with sewing up an old sheet and putting their stuffing into it to make an approximate shredded latex topper for just my side so I can see if I like the feel at all without disturbing his sleep.

Thanks for the insights! Come to think of it, I’ve got a couple old polyester filled mattress pads too. If I get a topper, I would want a latex one, but I think before making a purchase, I want to experiment a bit more with what I’ve got on hand to better narrow in on what I need.

Thanks for all the wonderful ideas! Now the hard part - going slowly and making one change at a time! I’ll do my best to take small steps and learn as I got=)

Stay tuned for updates…

Hi awoods,

I’m looking forward to any updates you have the chance to share. As you mentioned … one small step at a time is always the best approach :slight_smile:

Phoenix