Hi awoods,
That’s great news … and no I don’t think it’s wrong at all! On some of my more “sleep deprived” days … that’s all I can think about as well 
Phoenix
I hope it does the ticket too! We are in the same boat, in terms of sourcing the bed material so success stories is comforting.
Thought I’d post an update. I have been sleeping on this configuration for a week now. It is a step in the right direction, but still not quite there for me. I am getting better cradling, but I think still not quite enough. I am having less pain directly in the hip joint, but still some. But more troubling, I seem to be trying to rotate away from the pressure on my bent knee while sleeping. I find I wake up in all sorts of odd postures. I have woken up twice now partially rotated so that I am in a partial stomach, part side position. This puts a lot of torque on my lower back, which is feeling a bit tweaked right now from that. So I’m getting closer, but not quite there yet. My thoughts on possible solutions:
- I could try exchanging for an extra soft top layer instead of soft. I should sink further into it, so I’d get more secondary support under my hip. My worry with this is that it might be too soft and I’d be swaybacked. And also, it might be too soft for my husband, who is doing pretty well with the current configuration. I’m worried he’d go through it too easily and it would create a pressure point on his shoulder when it hits the firm layer underneath.
- I could try adding a 1 inch extra soft latex layer on top of my existing configuration in the hope that my heavier parts would go right through it, and it would provide the extra secondary support I need in the gaps in my sleeping profile. Hopefully without introducing a swayback situation. On the soft, I am not having any swayback issues. In theory I think it would be less risky for my husband than 3 inches of extra soft. Using your excellent measurement guide, his shoulders need 3 1/2 inches of cushion. So 4 total inches of soft vs. 3 inches now still seems like it would still be reasonable for him. This option is more expensive though, as I’d need to order an additional piece, but I do like that if in future ask the foam softens over time, the one inch could be removed if things ever become too soft.
- I could try adding some polyfoam on top for a more pillowtop like feel. I dislike that it wouldn’t be an all latex solution, but could work. I’m less clear on how much I’d need…would take some more research.
Any thoughts? What next step would you recommend?
Hi awoods,
You could certainly try it and see but only your own experience will tell you whether it works well for you or not. You could also use the extra soft on your side and leave your husbands side the same as it is with split layering.
Specs can be a general guideline or “pointer” but only your actual experience will tell you the specifics of what will work well for any particular person. A 1" topper would provide “a touch to a little” of additional pressure relief (and secondary support) and would also be less risky than a thicker soft topper in terms of alignment.
A shredded latex topper can also be a good choice because it can provide some additional pressure relief with even less risk for alignment.
Yes … this could work as well and it’s a lower cost option than latex so from a cost perspective it’s less risky but again only your own experience would be able to tell you whether any particular choice would work well in combination with you and your mattress. The general thickness/softness guidelines would be similar for any foam material and more thickness softness will provide more pressure relief but can also add to the risk of alignment issues with any solid foam material.
Phoenix
I believe the topper on the Denver Mattress iChoice is ILD 14 right? I haven’t been there yet, as the iChoice seemed like it would overall be too soft. But I might go there to specifically test out laying on the extra soft topper to see how 3" of extra soft feels.
I think I’ll experiment with a makeshift shredded latex topper by taking the stuffing out of pillows I’m not using. I can experiment with it on just my side of the bed to see if I like it before asking my husband to try it.
In our in person testing, I did like the feel of the one mattress we tried with quilted polyfoam over latex. We didn’t choose that because the core was too firm and there were no configuration options. So a few questions about polyfoam. Does it need to be attached to quilting to keep from bunching up? What vendors would you recommend that sell polyfoam toppers or layers? What specs should I care about in regard to polyfoam? Do any of the do it yourself vendors sell a mattress case with a polyfoam quilted top? I don’t recall seeing any in my search.
Thanks for your help!
Hi awoods,
Yes … you can see the specs of the iChoice here.
No … it would be similar to any other topper and your mattress protector and sheets would keep it in place.
There are some good online sources for polyfoam in the component post here. Some of the big box stores or any supplier that has a good return policy would also be worth considering. Even something like this that can provide some additional softness under your pressure points and will provide a more “relaxed” and less resilient sleeping surface and a more “pillowtop” type of feel may be worth considering to see how it affect your sleeping experience.
Density is the most important factor for durability but with a topper that can be easily replaced durability may be less important than it would be if it was inside a mattress and couldn’t be replaced but I still wouldn’t use anything less than about 1.5 lbs because you could be looking at a useful lifespan of months in some cases.
How a topper feels and performs and the softness/firmness of a topper will depend on a combination of many specs including IFD, thickness, and compression modulus (see post #4 here) and this can become very complex so I would keep things simple because specs won’t tell you whether it will work or not so I would focus on the type of material in the topper (which will determine how it “feels”) and on the thickness (which will affect the alignment risk), and on the general firmness rating (firm, medium, or soft).
When you have purchased a mattress and more simple and basic “fine tuning efforts” (such as re-arranging layers, exchanging a layer, or some of the other previous suggestions) aren’t working as well as you hoped for then that means that you are “outside the averages” that would work for the large majority of people and trial and error and your own personal experience will be the only way to know whether a particular topper will work well for you in combination with your mattress and in these types of situations the return policy of any topper you purchase may be the most important consideration of all.
Phoenix
Thanks for all the great info on what to consider in regard to polyfoam. I’ll be looking that over next.
I have several of these as I used to use them before discovering my dust mite allergy. I tried napping on a double layer thickness of this type on top of my current configuration s/f/m with just stretchy cover. It didn’t have the effect I was looking for. Not enough loft (mine are old and a bit compressed) to fill in the gaps, and had the undesirable effect of firming up the layer underneath - but a useful test.
My next experiment was a quick bit of sewing - I folded over an old sheet, made it into a giant pillow case and filled it with the shredded latex out of 2 king size pillows. For those who are interested in quantifying - each of the king size pillows weighed about 6 lb, so a total of about 12 lb of shredded latex made a twin size shredded latex topper about 2" thick. Here’s a pic (the random yellow piece of foam is there for scale - it is exactly 2" thick).
I have slept on this on the current configuration for 2 nights. I’m still considering what I’ve learned. My hips liked the extra loft and slightly more relaxed surface, it felt very safe for them when sleeping with one knee bent. The more relaxed surface also had the nice effect that the sheets on top stayed smoother and didn’t wrinkle all up so much. The shredded latex I have is very thin strips of all sorts of sizes from 2" long to tiny crumbs. It does not flow out of the way like I understand the lanoodle would (which I suspect I’d prefer), instead it compresses mostly in place. I was surprised actually by how little it moves around. The picture shows what it looked like after a night of sleeping on it, there is a small body impression, but not that much considering there are no baffles. Since it does not shift aside, it on top of the s layer below is too much thickness of soft material and I had some swayback pain from this configuration. It also was just a bit lumpy feeling which I didn’t really like. But I’ve gained some great data, to continue my fine tuning experimentation.
My husband says that the current configuration (with no shredded latex on his side) is feeling borderline too soft for his lower back. So the next incremental thing we will try is to place the wool quilted cover under the soft layer, to approximate the bottom 2 layers being encased in a quilted cover and having the 3" soft latex in a stretch case as a topper. That way we can find out if he feels better lower back support, and how much difference I notice in the feel of the soft layer acting more as an independent topper. If he doesn’t feel improvement, then there is no topper I could add to that configuration that would work for us both. But if that does work for him I can try re-opening my shredded latex topper to take out some stuffing to make it closer to 1".
So my husband has liked the original s/m/f with quilted cover best. So I think another good experiment will be to go back to that, and try it with my makeshift shredded latex topper on top and see of that provides me the secondary support I need. Is so then the lanoodle topper might end up being a good solution for us.
You are right about return policy for toppers being important! I’m giving that high priority in my search. Do you know if the lanoodle topper is a non-returnable item? I couldn’t tell from the website, would need to call to find out. Also does the lanoodle topper tend to go on sale around Thanksgiving? Some of the threads I read about it here indicated it might go on sale sometimes. If so, thanksgiving isn’t that far away, which might work out nicely.
So the experimentation continues. I think the right solution is out there, need to do some more data gathering to narrow in on it…thanks for listening to me ramble!
Hi awoods,
You are certainly doing some interesting experimentation with different materials and combinations to fine tune your mattress.
The type of “flowing away” that happens with shredded latex isn’t so much that the latex actually shifts or physically moves out of the way but that it would compress differently and more “off to the side” from a solid layer which has more resistance and allows the more pointy parts of the body to penetrate the layer more deeply while still remaining more resilient and supportive under the flatter parts of the body.
They don’t allow returns on their toppers once they have been used.
Thanks for taking the time to share your testing and the combinations you are experimenting with … I appreciate it. Its always interesting to me to see the many different combinations that end up working best for different people.
Phoenix
Thanks for this nice description - that’s very helpful. I feel like the flat shreds I have now don’t really move off to the side at all, they just compress flat. I think I’d like the sort of flow you’ve described here.
Thanks! Being non-returnable makes it a difficult decision to decide to try due to its high price point. Still thinking about it…
Last night we put the wool quilted cover beneath the s layer. I could notice the firmer deep support from the addition of the wool cover. I’m letting my husband try it for a few days before he makes a judgement about it. Since I already know this configuration will not conform enough for me, I also took about half the stuffing out of my makeshift shredded latex topper so it is closer to what I’d guess is the amount in the lanoodle. It is now between 1 & 1 1/2" tall. Making the shredded latex layer thinner helped. I feel like I had less swayback, although I need a few more days to know if it is none vs. less.
We slept on the previous configuration for a week. My husband didn’t like it as well as all 3 layers encased in the wool quilted cover. Treating the top layer as a topper was too soft for his lower back, so adding a topper to that configuration for him would not be good. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper for about 5 days before concluding that it directly on the latex was too soft for my lower back even with less stuffing in it and going back to just the latex for a 2 days until the weekend when I could consider what to do next.
So this weekend I went to Denver Mattress and tried the 14ILD topper on the ichoice to evaluate whether or not exchanging my top later of latex from soft to extra soft might help. It was softer, but latex has enough push back that my knee doesn’t sink in well, even on extra soft. So it was a very useful test. I concluded that I should continue experimenting with toppers that have a more relaxed feel than solid latex. So we rearranged the bed back to s/m/f all inside the quilted cover. For those who are keeping track - the original configuration which my husband has liked best. I put the shredded latex topper on my side to see if it hits the sweet spot of more cushy for my knee and hip joints without letting me sink in so much I have swayback pain. This is the best nights sleep I’ve had so far! Getting very close!
I’m hesitant to buy the lanoodle topper since it is so expensive and isn’t returnable. So today I went to OMF and I bought a 1 inch thick polyfoam topper. It is 1.5lb density and 15ILD - super soft. It is the same material in the pillowtop I’d tried there that was high on the list of mattresses we were considering. And best of all, it was only $50 for a king size. For that price, it was an easy decision to try it next rather than ordering lanoodle. When I brought it home and compared it to the thickness of the shredded latex topper I slept on last night, it was very close. I haven’t slept on it yet, but laying on it briefly today it felt pretty good! And I’m hoping it is thin enough my husband will go right through it and still get the support he needs from the latex. Will report back after we sleep on it for a while.
Hi awoods,
I’m impressed with your incremental “small changes at a time” approach and the analysis you are making based on each configuration. Getting “very close” is good news
I’m looking forward to the results of the polyfoam topper as well.
Thanks again for keeping us up to date with your process and your results.
Phoenix
I’ve been sleeping on the polyfoam topper for several days now. My initial impression was that it didn’t conform to me as well as the shredded latex. However, I know polyfoam can soften substantially, so I have been knee walking across the surface each day to soften it up and it has already softened quite a bit and is conforming better, although I think the shredded latex still conformed more. The extra 1 inch is making a difference for my knee to sink into and fills the gap under my hip pretty well. I think it could be a shade thicker to fill in the gap completely, so I tried folding over the polyfoam topper to test laying on 2 inches of polyfoam (didn’t sleep that way, just did a quick test as I was setting things up). It was obvious immediately that 2" was too much. So I have narrowed in on exactly how much I need to sink in to the surface. I think that 1 1/2" inches would be perfect for my knee to sink into. It is a fine balance though. With the just the 1" polyfoam on top I have been waking up with lower back sway back pain that seems to have become a bit more each day. So I think that this combination is allowing my hips to sink down too much, although I am liking the surface feel. Before I make any modification to the deeper support layers, which will affect my husband (my layers aren’t split - but still time to exchange for split layers if needed), I am going to retry the shredded latex topper. I didn’t sleep on the shredded latex topper long enough on this configuration to know if swayback pain was an issue because I wanted to find out if he could tolerate a topper at all. Good news on that front, the extra 1 inch of polyfoam didn’t make any difference to my husband! So I’m hoping that the springyness of the shredded latex will be just enough push back on my hips to prevent swayback pain. If that works, then the lanoodle topper expense might be the best thing to do since the the s/m/f configuration with a topper could work for us both. So more incremental progress, learning as I go and more ideas to try…
Just an update on my continuing journey. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper on the s/m/f configuration. It seemed marginally less prone to swayback pain than the polyfoam topper, the pushback of the shredded latex helped a little. But still, each day was getting worse. So on the weekend we changed the bed so the layers are s/f/m with the wool quilted cover, and I am using the makeshift shredded latex topper. After just 2 days on this configuration, already the swayback pain is diminishing, and the support under the gap in my hip is pretty good from the shredded latex. I will be giving this configuration a longer try, but based on my experimentation, I think that we will probably be doing a layer exchange for a split middle layer so my husbands side will be s/m/f and my side will be s/f/f. We had hoped to find one configuration that worked for both of us, but after trying out many, we have concluded that we might need a split configuration. For those who are considering purchasing, in retrospect, I wish I’d ordered a solid s layer, but split m & f layers. Would have given us more configurations to try without needing to do an exchange while still having a solid top layer.
Phoenix, what difference will having s/f/m vs. s/f/f make do you think? Going to s/f/f only requires exchanging one layer instead of 2. I think that either s/f/m or s/f/f will keep me from having swayback pain. But it seems like the s/f/f might make the side to side difference in the bed more noticeable (which we’d like to minimize). I want the extra support while sleeping, but don’t want to notice a distinct boundary when we cuddle up to watch tv. Anyone with such a split configuration like to comment on if it feels weird to lay in the middle of the bed for short amounts of time?
Hi awoods,
Even a split top layer can make a difference for some people because it allows for more “fine tuning” configurations on each side of the mattress than having a solid top layer. For example someone that was heavier may choose a medium over soft configuration if they wanted to “firm up” the feel of their sleeping surface (firmer layers tend to feel softer for heavier body types) while a lighter partner may choose to use the softer layer on top.
This would depend on the person themselves and their body type, sleeping style, and where they were in the sensitivity range between “princess and the pea” and “I can sleep on anything”. For many people … particularly if they were less sensitive or were lighter the difference in firmness on the bottom layer would make little difference and for others that were more sensitive or were in higher weight ranges where the compression of the deeper layers were more of a factor it would make a bigger difference. With these types of changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night. The only way to really know with any certainty how much difference smaller changes would make for any individual person would be based on their personal experience.
Most of the “feel” of a mattress comes from the upper layers and differences in the deeper layers would make less of a difference when you first go to sleep at night or over shorter periods of time (such as watching TV) than they would over the course of the night. Split firmness levels in deeper layers will also have a much more “gradual” and less defined boundary than the same differences between layers that are closer to the surface because the layers on top of the split firmness would “smooth out” the transition between them. Once again though … different people can be more or less sensitive to smaller differences between mattresses or between one side and another of the same mattress. I think it would be safe to say that for most people the difference in feel would be relatively small (and some may not notice it at all) and those where it would be an issue would be a much smaller minority.
Phoenix
[quote]changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night.
[/quote]
Thanks Phoenix - this is very helpful! I am pretty happy with now with the initial feel when I lay down. The only remaining issue is a small amount of lower back soreness when I wake up from sleeping all night. I’m hoping that going to s/f/f from the current s/f/m will be just enough to get rid of that last lingering bit of waking up discomfort. It also makes me feel better that having the deeper layers vary isn’t likely to be very noticeable over shorter time periods. That’s exactly what I was hoping. Based on this discussion, I am going to move forward with requesting a layer exchange so that my side will be s/f/f and my husbands will stay at the original s/m/f. Thanks again for being such a valuable resource!
Hi awoods,
Your reasoning makes good sense to me and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it
Phoenix
Well, it seems that I misunderstood the layer exchange policy. I have reviewed the online verbage, and I think that it is unclear, so I wanted to post so others can benefit from what I learned. I have 3 unsplit king size layers. The layer exchange policy describes exchanges in terms of “layers”. So I assumed that exchanging 1 unsplit layer (e.g. my medium) for a 1 split layer (med/firm) would be 1 layer exchange. However, this is not the case. Sleeping Organic considers each half to be one “layer exchange”. So exchanging my m unsplit layer for a split m/f layer would count as 2 exchanges (the maximum allowed for free). This is disappointing. In light of this, not getting split layers in the first place was certainly a mistake.
I had a quite detailed conversation with one of their representatives about my pain symptoms, and they were not convinced that this exchange alone would solve my pain issue (nor am I). I had figured it would be fine, since it would be a step in the right direction, and I could have one remaining layer exchange in case my surface layer also needed adjustment. But this is not the case. I am going to be in their physical area over the Thanksgiving holiday, and have inquired if I bring in all 3 of my layers, if they can split them. I’m waiting to hear about that and if it will count as a layer exchange, but it will be tricky scheduling wise at the very least as holidays are busy times. So one question - is there any disadvantage to having a glued solid layer split? Will there be a weird area where the glue is that you wouldn’t have if the layers had not been glued in the first place?
I continued to try the shredded latex topper + s/f/m and while it was better than topper + s/m/f, I was starting to have enough increasing lower back pain that I have for the moment switched back to my old bed. I am not willing to put my back at risk while I figure this out. It is interesting seeing how that feels after more than a month not using it. What I’ve realized is that the pillow top is super soft, but only about 2" thick and the underlying springs are quite firm. After only 3 days back on my old bed, all back pain is gone. I think that what I have learned is that my husband benefits fromt the s/m/f progression, but I seem to need an extremely soft surface layer I can sink into, but require that it be quite thin, with firm support underneath.
I’ve concluded that even s latex has too much pushback for me as a solid surface layer. I have ordered a lanoodle pillow to experiment with to find out how different the lanoodles feel from the shredded latex I have already been experimenting with. I’m hoping it will come soon. If that feels great, then I might be better off with a 3+3+2 model like the sleepez 9000 + a lanoodle topper so I can have the more relaxed surface feel and keep the comfort layer thin. I think part of the problem I’m having right now is that I want my surface layer to be soft, but shredded latex topper + 3 inch soft is the softness I want, but too thick. I am also considering a hybrid - buying a 2 layer latex mattress that can function as the core, and then having a local manufacturer build me a polyfoam pillowtop topper. My old pillowtop/innerspring was great for me, so a pillowtop topper over firm latex seems likely to work well for me. The old pillowtop bed we have doesn’t give my husband enough cushion for his shoulder. But if we had a latex core instead of springs, his side could have a medium progression layer.
Who knew finding a bed was so complicated!
So given how far away I am from identifying the correct latex layers I need, I am leaning toward doing a return on the sleeping organic mattress. It is a beautiful mattress, but just might not be right for me. With my new understanding of the layer exchange policy, I think that getting the layers that will work for me might end up being too expensive. It seems like my best bet right now might be to return the bed in person over Thanksgiving to avoid shipping costs, paying only the $99 restocking fee. I know I won’t be making the trip to their area again this year, so if I do a layer exchange and it doesn’t work for me, then I’d end up needing to pay all the shipping costs to return the mattress at the end of the trial period.
Can’t get everything right on the first try I guess. Thanks again for being such a great resource! I’m sure I will find the right solution, just not as quickly as I’d hoped.
Hi awoods,
First the easy part
I would agree with you that their terminology is somewhat unclear. Many component manufacturers offer a single free layer exchange (outside of some shipping costs) so I can understand what they were trying to express but I think it would be clearer if they were to say something like this …
[quote]1. During the first 90 days you may request a layer swap. We will compile your thoughts about your layer selections and make a recommendation for a different layer firmness. Our layer exchange policies are as follows:
a. We will ship one full layer OR two half layers free of charge (with half layers either shipped at the same time or with separate exchanges) but you are responsible for shipping charges back to Sleeping Organic.
b. An additional half layer OR an additional full layer can be purchased at 35% off the current layer price and you are only responsible for return shipping charges (My Comments: it would be impossible to take advantage of this at all the way it was written if “layer” means “half a layer” and you needed to exchange a full layer that wasn’t split).
Our goal is to create the best mattress possible for your sleep style and will do what ever possible to help achieve your perfect mattress.[/quote]
I also agree with you that when there is a chance that each side of a mattress may need to be layered different then ordering split layers would be the wiser choice.
Now on to the more complex part …
I was a little lost in the sheer volume and complexity of all the information in your topic and your somewhat unusual sleeping position along with your sensitivity to some very “fine” changes makes it difficult to know what would be suitable for you so your circumstances aren’t really “simple enough” to effectively deal with on a forum because these types of much more complex situations generally need more detailed phone conversations and some trial and error to resolve them. Having said that … I did have the time today to take a few hours to look back at your previous posts and do some analysis so I can make a few comments that may be helpful. I thought I’d do a recap first though to make sure I’m understanding the way things have progressed correctly. You also seem to have a very good “handle” on the effect of different changes so I’m not sure if any of this will be telling you anything you don’t already know.
- You originally ordered (from bottom to top) Firm Dunlop, Medium Dunlop, and Soft Talalay all in single unsplit layers (according to this post and this post).
A recap of your results from this post …
On night 7 your “symptoms” on this configuration were “no lower back pain” or pain that appeared to be the result of sleeping in a swayback position but you had some hip pain and it appeared that one side of your hips was unsupported. You also had some knee pain.
My comments: This appears to indicate that you could use some additional softness, thickness, or contouring in your top layer.
- Next you tried removing the quilted cover and sleeping directly on the latex with your stretch knit protector over it.
Your results from this post …
My comments: It seems that this resolved the contouring and secondary support and eliminated the hip pain but ended up being a little too soft for you in terms of spinal alignment and there were some indications of lower back pain (although at this point it was only one night which isn’t really enough to assess any change). It also didn’t seem to provide good alignment for your husband based on visuals. It may have been worth trying this configuration for a little longer because sometimes what alignment “looks like” or only a single nights experience can be misleading and your actual sleeping experience can be a more effective way to assess the success of a combination.
- Next you tried using the cover but unzipped in the hopes it would be “in between” the zipped cover and no cover at all.
Your results from this post indicated that you still weren’t sinking in far enough to support the raised hip. It was softer but not contouring enough.
- Next you tried (top to bottom) S/F/M with no cover on top and only your protector.
Your results from this post seemed to indicate that at least for one night this seemed to work quite well. A week later though based on this post it didn’t seem to be working as well and still seemed to be too firm for you.
My comments: At this point if this configuration is too firm for you and it since it seems that the S/M/F with no cover is apparently too soft and the S/F/M is too firm (also with no cover) then the main options from here would be to either exchange for a softer comfort layer with XS/F/M or to do some additional fine tuning to this combination with even smaller increments than the normal “single step” changes which would work for most people and this would normally involve using thinner toppers (less than 3"). At this point you have “bracketed” two combinations that are relatively close together (with only the order of the bottom two layers reversed) where one appears to be too soft and one appears to be too firm so “in theory” your ideal would be somewhere in between these two.
To your credit you realized both of these as legitimate possibilities in your same reply which indicates that you seem to have a good understanding of the effect of different changes.
- Next you tried experimenting with a home made shredded latex topper made from two pillows.
Your results from this post were somewhat mixed …
After sleeping on S/F/M without a topper or cover for a little longer your husband also seemed to feel that it may be “borderline” too soft but I didn’t see any mention of any specific symptoms that confirmed this so it may have only been a more subjective sense of things.
My comments: This sounds like it was just a little too much additional thickness/softness and as you suggested it would be worth considering removing some of the shredded latex as a further test. I also think that your suggestion to “approximate” a 6" mattress with a quilted cover and a separate topper was a good one along with this suggestion as well …
- Next you tried using the wool quilted cover underneath the soft top layer (approximating a 6" mattress with a separate topper) and using the shredded topper with a little less latex.
Your results after one day from this post seemed unclear …
After a week of this though it seemed from this post that both of you weren’t doing as well on this combination …
My comments: I’m assuming that the shredded late topper you used here was the thinner 1" to 1.5" version? If this is the case then this combination seems to be a little contradictory to me because if combination #4 was too firm for you then this layering with the same combination except a wool layer under the soft top layer “should” have made it a little firmer yet and it’s somewhat odd that with only the addition of a 1" - 1.5" shredded topper it became too soft after being “two” increments too firm (the original S/F/M which was already too firm and the wool making it even firmer). Was this really too soft for you?
- Next you purchased a 1" polyfoam topper from OMF in 15 ILD.
Your results are in this post …
My comments: I’'m not clear about the layering that you were using this on. Was it the S/F/M without the cover or with the cover under the top layer (like #6 except with polyfoam instead of shredded latex)? This one is also a little bit odd as well because in one part of the post you were indicating that you may need some additional thickness to “fill in the gap” under your hip a little better and that 1.5" may be perfect but in another part of the same post you indicated that 1" may already be allowing your hips to sink in too much and causing lower back pain so there were conflicting indications that it may be both too thick and too thin at the same time. Of course it’s possible that an additional 1/2" that filled in the gap under your hip better would help with support and alignment and would solve the lower back pain in which case there would be no conflict (the lower back pain would be coming from the lack of support under one hip and possible twisting).
- Next you tried the shredded latex topper on the same configuration as #7.
Your results are in this post.
My comments: You did mention that you used this with the S/M/F configuration but it’s not clear to me if this was with the cover somewhere in the mix or without the cover at all.
- Next you tried the shredded latex topper (1.5") on S/F/M with the cover around it
Your results are in this post (the same post as the results for #8 ) and in this post which seemed to indicate that it was very close but perhaps just a touch too soft and that switching the medium bottom layer to a firm bottom layer may make “just enough” difference.
My comments: This sounds very promising but if you did do the layer exchange I don’t know how you would feel with sleeping on a mattress where your side had a topper and your husband’s side didn’t. Did you try the polyoam on this combination?
- This is the layer exchange you are currently considering and haven’t tried yet which brings us up to date.
My overall comments.
It may also be worth considering that when you are this sensitive to some very small changes and the range of configurations that works for you is this narrow that your own needs and preferences change to some degree over the course of different days or weeks as you are more or less tired or your body is more or less stressed or circumstances change and this may be a limiting factor as well because a configuration that works well for some or even most of the time may not work as well at other times (see post #45 here) so there may be no perfect solution that works for you all the time.
I you can clarify some of the questions or comments I’ve bolded then I may be able to gain a few insights and add a few additional comments as well (time permitting because trying to analyze all of this is a very complex and slow process).
Phoenix
Phoenix - thank you so much for taking the time to do such a careful review! That is so kind. I’m sorry I’ve been slow replying, stresses in other areas of my life have been piling up. I agree that I may be beyond what can be solved in a forum, and my expectation is not that you can solve my problem for me. But rather, you have equipped me with the tools to find a solution for myself, and I thank you for it. I’ll continue to post my experiences so they can benefit others. I don’t want to be a time sink for you though, any advice you have time to offer along the way is welcome, but I absolutely understand your time is limited. It took me a couple days to get back to my own thread after all!
Thanks for confirming that the Sleeping Organic layer exchange policy is vague.
To answer your bolded questions.
Yes, the thinner shredded latex topper. I too am astounded by how much difference the 1" of shredded latex made for me. That was quite unexpected. I tried it as long as I could tolerate, and the last night on this configuration I actually got up several times in the night to stretch out my lower back before attempting to go back to sleep. I had intended to give this configuration a week, but could not make it that long before the lower back pain was too much. While my hip joints liked the secondary support I got from my bent knee sinking easily into the surface, the overall amount that I was sinking down seemed to be too much for my lower back. Combination #4 seemed to be just a bit in the other direction - my lower back got enough support, but my knee didn’t sink into the surface quite enough. I think it wasn’t so much that it felt “hard” but that my bent knee didn’t like the pushback of the latex. So I suspect it is more about the resilience of the surface layer than “softness”.
Polyfoam topper + s/m/f with the quilted cover on. Configuration #1 + polyfoam topper
Shredded latex topper + s/m/f with the quilted cover. Configuration #1 + shredded latex topper
So the recap is
#1 s/m/f with wool cover, 7 nights - husband’s favorite, not enough secondary support for me under hip joint
#2 s/m/f with just stretchy protector, 1 night - both of us experienced lower back pain, husband’s posture looked like a u
#3 s/m/f with wool cover unzipped, 1 night - Pretty much the same as #1
#4 s/f/m with just stretchy protector, 7 nights - husband experienced lower back pain and expressed dislike of the feel of sleeping directly on the latex, for me secondary support was good under my hip joint, but knee seemed not to like the resilience of latex pushback and I kept trying to twist away from it in my sleep. Lower back pain that was more “out of place” like resulted. Very hard to tell if I had any swayback pain due to the pain from rotation during sleep.
#5 s/f/m with just stretchy protector, 2" shredded latex my side only, 2 nights - For husband, this is continuing #4. For me, knee liked the less resilient feel of the shredded latex, but I also had significant lower back pain both swayback, and the residual pain from #4.
#6 s/f/m with wool quilted cover between s & f layers. Stretchy protector on top of s and 1" shredded latex topper on my side only, intended to try 7 days, only made it 5. Husband, felt the same as #4. Me, less swayback pain than #5, still a non-trivial amount.
#7 s/m/f with wool cover and 1" polyfoam topper on both sides, 4 nights. Husband could not tell the difference between #1 and #7. Me, knee sinks in better than on solid latex, less than on shredded latex. Swayback pain was increasing each night. Oddly, I also was experiencing pain on the outside of my shoulders.
#8 s/m/f with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper my side only, 5 nights. For me, less swayback pain than #7, but still experiencing some. Shoulder pain went away.
#9 s/f/m with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper my side only, 5 nights. Husband likes s/m/f better. Me, first 2 nights swayback pain diminishing, then began increasing again.
#10 s/f/m with wool cover and 1" polyfoam topper on both sides, 2 nights. Husband doesn’t really notice the 1" making a difference. For me, swayback pain continued to increase, to the point where I had to get up several times a night and stretch. Also pain in outside of shoulders returned. Still puzzled about that, but seems to be somehow related to the polyfoam topper.
At this point, I had lost my baseline and pain levels and sleep deprivation was making it impossible to continue learning. So I returned to my old mattress to let my body reset. I have been on my old mattress for 7 nights and now am back to no pain in hips or lower back, and am much less sleep deprived.
Thinking back across all of these experiments, I’ve learned several important things
- My husband I have different enough needs that we do need a split configuration to both have optimal PPP. This was a surprise, I had expected us to be able to find something that worked for us both.
- My odd sleeping position is not compatible with the resilience of a solid latex surface layer, although I enjoy the springyness of latex under a more relaxed topper. Again, this was wholly a surprise to me.
- I think the 3" soft layer must be right on the edge of too soft for my lower back, which seems to be the only reason I can think of why adding a 1" topper pushes me over the edge in regard to swayback pain. I have done a few short tests of putting the 3" soft layer directly on the floor, and trying the toppers on top of it. The 3" by itself feels ok, but the addition of either topper feels a bit iffy on my lower back when laying there for half hour or so. I haven’t slept a full night this way, but it was helpful to test how the layer felt in isolation.
One of the things that has taken me by surprise is finding out how sensitive I really am to small changes. My old mattress has served me well for 15 years, and I’ve never experienced mattress induced pain with it. I could of course go back to a innerspring + polyfoam, but while the old mattress was great for me, it isn’t so good for my husband. He doesn’t complain about it, but I’d like to find a solution that works better for him. I think that if we have a split latex core (bottom 6") and a comfort layer that includes a surface modifier to reduce the resiliency of the surface, that this will be achievable. Working out the comfort layer will be a bit tricky, but seems achievable. I’m not out of ideas yet=)
I have decided that I am going to do a return, for several reasons. First, the layer exchange policy isn’t very compatible with the unsplit model I’ve selected and I think that getting to a model that suits me is going to be too expensive with that policy. Second, it seems clear that my body is not liking solid latex as the surface layer, so the mattress isn’t as compatible with my needs as I’d hoped. And lastly, the testing I need to do to figure out precisely what I need is time consuming and interferes with sleep. Sleep deprivation was taking its toll and starting to impact too many other areas of my life. And the time pressure to figure it out before the mattress trial period ran out was just too stressful. So I’m removing the time pressure, will work on reducing stress in other areas of my life, and will return to selecting a mattress when I can once again focus on it. I still have my old mattress which is in an acceptable state, so there is no reason to rush myself.
So I’ll continue my journey by taking a less rushed approach to figuring out what comfort layer I want. The lanoodle pillow I ordered has not arrived yet. When it does, I will make it into a makeshift topper to test. With my testing thus far, I have liked the relaxed but still springy feel of the shredded latex topper I already tried. What I did not like about it was that it is “fiddly”. After 5 nights sleeping on it, the latex moves around inside it so that it is lumpy. That wouldn’t be a big deal if it was easy to smooth out. However, it is quite difficult to flatten out again because the individual shreds stick to each other so much. I’m hopeful that the lanoodles being of uniform shape will be easier to smooth out.
Thanks again for all of the advise!
Hi awoods,
Thanks for the additional information and clarification … and for the concise recap of all the configurations. In looking at things I may have some suggestions that may be helpful.
While it’s true that I do have limited time … I actually enjoy the analysis that can be involved in helping to “solve” some of the more complex issues that can often be involved in more challenging circumstances so when I can I’m certainly happy to help provide any insights to the extent that I can pick up on something that may be helpful. I have to say once again that your clear and concise descriptions and the incremental and comparative approach you are taking is very insightful and impressive and makes analysis much easier.
In my previous reply I mixed up part of #4 with part of #5 in my analysis and my comparison with #6 was comparing your results in #4 (too firm) but was using the layering in #5 (which was too soft) so my misreading using the results of one combination and the layering of another (not realizing that I was mixing them up) was the reason for the contradiction that I “thought” I saw. Comparing your comments and the layering and description only of #5 with #6 the way I should have makes much more sense …
So to clarify my comments that compares #6 to #5 (instead of comparing a mix between #4 and #5 to #6) …
#5 combination was (from top to bottom)
2" (thicker) shredded latex topper
Soft Talalay
Firm Dunlop
Medium Dunlop
This was too soft resulting in swayback.
#6 combination was (from top to bottom) …
1 - 1.5" (thinner) shredded latex topper
Soft Talalay
Quilted cover
Firm Dunlop
Medium Dunlop
This also appeared to be too soft but was less so than #5 which now makes sense since the cover under the top layer would have resulted in more firmness and the thinner shredded latex topper also would have resulted in more firmness (which was the two “increments towards firmness” I was mentioning). The only surprising thing here was that they weren’t “more” different from each other since I would have guessed that #6 was more “in the range” than it was.
Comments about the polyfoam topper.
In both cases the shoulder pressure that you felt with the polyfoam topper was probably because it would be firmer than the shredded latex topper and it would also be less point elastic than the shredded latex topper and could also affect the contouring of the layers underneath it and allow for less penetration in your lower hip and shoulders which could result in the pressure you were feeling. This would make sense because in both instances where you used it the shoulder pain wasn’t there when you used the shredded latex instead of the polyfoam with the same configuration underneath it. A convoluted polyfoam topper in the range of 1" to 1.5" may work better than the solid topper in your case.
This certainly makes sense to me.
Before you return it though it may be worth considering some configurations with “makeshift” zoning along the lines of the suggestions in post #11 here if you have the time. It would give you a chance to assess the difference that zoning could make (if you try this I would start with center third zoning) which may allow you to use some of the configurations that were slightly too soft but otherwise seemed to work well and may also result in a similar configuration in the same thickness which works for your husband as well. It would also give you a good chance to see how zoning may affect things for future reference.
The combinations that I think would be worth considering for center zoning would be …
s/f/m with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper on both sides.
This was slightly too firm for your husband without the shredded latex topper and he liked the s/m/f with wool cover better but the additional firmness for him would likely be offset with the thin shredded latex topper.
For you this seemed to be close and was perhaps the closest of the combinations (pain diminishing and then coming back) and with the addition of center zoning it may "push your hips up) into the range that would work for you.
The center zoning may also be fine for your husband if you extend it across the entire mattress. I would consider the center zoning in between the soft and firm layer or alternatively for a slightly smaller effect under the firm layer.
s/m/f with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper
This may also be suitable for both of you even though this combination is softer but once again you could try the zoning under either your side or both. My comments would be similar to the previous one and it would allow for more secondary support with the zoning once again “pushing up” your hips to alleviate the swayback position.
Phoenix