Hi awoods,
Thanks for the update … I’m looking forward to finding out about your results.
Phoenix
The S/F/M with just the stretchy protector worked great for me! I slept really well for the first time on this mattress. It is very cushy and conforming, but also with good support for my lower back. No lower back soreness. It is also seems a bit less “jello” like in this configuration. My husband did not have lower back soreness, but says he has some upper back soreness this morning but isn’t entirely sure it is from the mattress configuration. Phoenix, is that a symptom of a side sleeper’s shoulder not sinking in enough? So this is a promising configuration, and we’ll continue trying it to make sure it works for me, and see if my husbands upper back pain goes away or continues. I also took the time as we were re-organizing the layers to lay on M/F for a bit. The medium dunlop is not conforming enough for me, so I would not want it as the top layer. So that’s good to know.
I also read sleepy1’s thread yesterday with interest. I didn’t realize how much difference there could be between the same layers in one case vs with the top one in a separate case. So that opens up another possible configuration. If my husband’s shoulder does need the M layer in the middle, then we could put S in a stretchy topper case, and the M/F in a wool/cotton case. Sleeping organic makes a 2 layer model, so that would just be a simple case change without the need to send back any layers.
Feeling very positive this morning that we’ll find the right solution for us=)
Hi awoods,
Thanks for taking the time to share another update … I appreciate it. So far so good 
It’s possible … but it wouldn’t be the norm.
Phoenix
Is it wrong that all I can think about this afternoon is that I want to go home and take a nap? I was that comfortable last night!
Hi awoods,
That’s great news … and no I don’t think it’s wrong at all! On some of my more “sleep deprived” days … that’s all I can think about as well
Phoenix
I hope it does the ticket too! We are in the same boat, in terms of sourcing the bed material so success stories is comforting.
Thought I’d post an update. I have been sleeping on this configuration for a week now. It is a step in the right direction, but still not quite there for me. I am getting better cradling, but I think still not quite enough. I am having less pain directly in the hip joint, but still some. But more troubling, I seem to be trying to rotate away from the pressure on my bent knee while sleeping. I find I wake up in all sorts of odd postures. I have woken up twice now partially rotated so that I am in a partial stomach, part side position. This puts a lot of torque on my lower back, which is feeling a bit tweaked right now from that. So I’m getting closer, but not quite there yet. My thoughts on possible solutions:
- I could try exchanging for an extra soft top layer instead of soft. I should sink further into it, so I’d get more secondary support under my hip. My worry with this is that it might be too soft and I’d be swaybacked. And also, it might be too soft for my husband, who is doing pretty well with the current configuration. I’m worried he’d go through it too easily and it would create a pressure point on his shoulder when it hits the firm layer underneath.
- I could try adding a 1 inch extra soft latex layer on top of my existing configuration in the hope that my heavier parts would go right through it, and it would provide the extra secondary support I need in the gaps in my sleeping profile. Hopefully without introducing a swayback situation. On the soft, I am not having any swayback issues. In theory I think it would be less risky for my husband than 3 inches of extra soft. Using your excellent measurement guide, his shoulders need 3 1/2 inches of cushion. So 4 total inches of soft vs. 3 inches now still seems like it would still be reasonable for him. This option is more expensive though, as I’d need to order an additional piece, but I do like that if in future ask the foam softens over time, the one inch could be removed if things ever become too soft.
- I could try adding some polyfoam on top for a more pillowtop like feel. I dislike that it wouldn’t be an all latex solution, but could work. I’m less clear on how much I’d need…would take some more research.
Any thoughts? What next step would you recommend?
Hi awoods,
You could certainly try it and see but only your own experience will tell you whether it works well for you or not. You could also use the extra soft on your side and leave your husbands side the same as it is with split layering.
Specs can be a general guideline or “pointer” but only your actual experience will tell you the specifics of what will work well for any particular person. A 1" topper would provide “a touch to a little” of additional pressure relief (and secondary support) and would also be less risky than a thicker soft topper in terms of alignment.
A shredded latex topper can also be a good choice because it can provide some additional pressure relief with even less risk for alignment.
Yes … this could work as well and it’s a lower cost option than latex so from a cost perspective it’s less risky but again only your own experience would be able to tell you whether any particular choice would work well in combination with you and your mattress. The general thickness/softness guidelines would be similar for any foam material and more thickness softness will provide more pressure relief but can also add to the risk of alignment issues with any solid foam material.
Phoenix
I believe the topper on the Denver Mattress iChoice is ILD 14 right? I haven’t been there yet, as the iChoice seemed like it would overall be too soft. But I might go there to specifically test out laying on the extra soft topper to see how 3" of extra soft feels.
I think I’ll experiment with a makeshift shredded latex topper by taking the stuffing out of pillows I’m not using. I can experiment with it on just my side of the bed to see if I like it before asking my husband to try it.
In our in person testing, I did like the feel of the one mattress we tried with quilted polyfoam over latex. We didn’t choose that because the core was too firm and there were no configuration options. So a few questions about polyfoam. Does it need to be attached to quilting to keep from bunching up? What vendors would you recommend that sell polyfoam toppers or layers? What specs should I care about in regard to polyfoam? Do any of the do it yourself vendors sell a mattress case with a polyfoam quilted top? I don’t recall seeing any in my search.
Thanks for your help!
Hi awoods,
Yes … you can see the specs of the iChoice here.
No … it would be similar to any other topper and your mattress protector and sheets would keep it in place.
There are some good online sources for polyfoam in the component post here. Some of the big box stores or any supplier that has a good return policy would also be worth considering. Even something like this that can provide some additional softness under your pressure points and will provide a more “relaxed” and less resilient sleeping surface and a more “pillowtop” type of feel may be worth considering to see how it affect your sleeping experience.
Density is the most important factor for durability but with a topper that can be easily replaced durability may be less important than it would be if it was inside a mattress and couldn’t be replaced but I still wouldn’t use anything less than about 1.5 lbs because you could be looking at a useful lifespan of months in some cases.
How a topper feels and performs and the softness/firmness of a topper will depend on a combination of many specs including IFD, thickness, and compression modulus (see post #4 here) and this can become very complex so I would keep things simple because specs won’t tell you whether it will work or not so I would focus on the type of material in the topper (which will determine how it “feels”) and on the thickness (which will affect the alignment risk), and on the general firmness rating (firm, medium, or soft).
When you have purchased a mattress and more simple and basic “fine tuning efforts” (such as re-arranging layers, exchanging a layer, or some of the other previous suggestions) aren’t working as well as you hoped for then that means that you are “outside the averages” that would work for the large majority of people and trial and error and your own personal experience will be the only way to know whether a particular topper will work well for you in combination with your mattress and in these types of situations the return policy of any topper you purchase may be the most important consideration of all.
Phoenix
Thanks for all the great info on what to consider in regard to polyfoam. I’ll be looking that over next.
I have several of these as I used to use them before discovering my dust mite allergy. I tried napping on a double layer thickness of this type on top of my current configuration s/f/m with just stretchy cover. It didn’t have the effect I was looking for. Not enough loft (mine are old and a bit compressed) to fill in the gaps, and had the undesirable effect of firming up the layer underneath - but a useful test.
My next experiment was a quick bit of sewing - I folded over an old sheet, made it into a giant pillow case and filled it with the shredded latex out of 2 king size pillows. For those who are interested in quantifying - each of the king size pillows weighed about 6 lb, so a total of about 12 lb of shredded latex made a twin size shredded latex topper about 2" thick. Here’s a pic (the random yellow piece of foam is there for scale - it is exactly 2" thick).
I have slept on this on the current configuration for 2 nights. I’m still considering what I’ve learned. My hips liked the extra loft and slightly more relaxed surface, it felt very safe for them when sleeping with one knee bent. The more relaxed surface also had the nice effect that the sheets on top stayed smoother and didn’t wrinkle all up so much. The shredded latex I have is very thin strips of all sorts of sizes from 2" long to tiny crumbs. It does not flow out of the way like I understand the lanoodle would (which I suspect I’d prefer), instead it compresses mostly in place. I was surprised actually by how little it moves around. The picture shows what it looked like after a night of sleeping on it, there is a small body impression, but not that much considering there are no baffles. Since it does not shift aside, it on top of the s layer below is too much thickness of soft material and I had some swayback pain from this configuration. It also was just a bit lumpy feeling which I didn’t really like. But I’ve gained some great data, to continue my fine tuning experimentation.
My husband says that the current configuration (with no shredded latex on his side) is feeling borderline too soft for his lower back. So the next incremental thing we will try is to place the wool quilted cover under the soft layer, to approximate the bottom 2 layers being encased in a quilted cover and having the 3" soft latex in a stretch case as a topper. That way we can find out if he feels better lower back support, and how much difference I notice in the feel of the soft layer acting more as an independent topper. If he doesn’t feel improvement, then there is no topper I could add to that configuration that would work for us both. But if that does work for him I can try re-opening my shredded latex topper to take out some stuffing to make it closer to 1".
So my husband has liked the original s/m/f with quilted cover best. So I think another good experiment will be to go back to that, and try it with my makeshift shredded latex topper on top and see of that provides me the secondary support I need. Is so then the lanoodle topper might end up being a good solution for us.
You are right about return policy for toppers being important! I’m giving that high priority in my search. Do you know if the lanoodle topper is a non-returnable item? I couldn’t tell from the website, would need to call to find out. Also does the lanoodle topper tend to go on sale around Thanksgiving? Some of the threads I read about it here indicated it might go on sale sometimes. If so, thanksgiving isn’t that far away, which might work out nicely.
So the experimentation continues. I think the right solution is out there, need to do some more data gathering to narrow in on it…thanks for listening to me ramble!
Hi awoods,
You are certainly doing some interesting experimentation with different materials and combinations to fine tune your mattress.
The type of “flowing away” that happens with shredded latex isn’t so much that the latex actually shifts or physically moves out of the way but that it would compress differently and more “off to the side” from a solid layer which has more resistance and allows the more pointy parts of the body to penetrate the layer more deeply while still remaining more resilient and supportive under the flatter parts of the body.
They don’t allow returns on their toppers once they have been used.
Thanks for taking the time to share your testing and the combinations you are experimenting with … I appreciate it. Its always interesting to me to see the many different combinations that end up working best for different people.
Phoenix
Thanks for this nice description - that’s very helpful. I feel like the flat shreds I have now don’t really move off to the side at all, they just compress flat. I think I’d like the sort of flow you’ve described here.
Thanks! Being non-returnable makes it a difficult decision to decide to try due to its high price point. Still thinking about it…
Last night we put the wool quilted cover beneath the s layer. I could notice the firmer deep support from the addition of the wool cover. I’m letting my husband try it for a few days before he makes a judgement about it. Since I already know this configuration will not conform enough for me, I also took about half the stuffing out of my makeshift shredded latex topper so it is closer to what I’d guess is the amount in the lanoodle. It is now between 1 & 1 1/2" tall. Making the shredded latex layer thinner helped. I feel like I had less swayback, although I need a few more days to know if it is none vs. less.
We slept on the previous configuration for a week. My husband didn’t like it as well as all 3 layers encased in the wool quilted cover. Treating the top layer as a topper was too soft for his lower back, so adding a topper to that configuration for him would not be good. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper for about 5 days before concluding that it directly on the latex was too soft for my lower back even with less stuffing in it and going back to just the latex for a 2 days until the weekend when I could consider what to do next.
So this weekend I went to Denver Mattress and tried the 14ILD topper on the ichoice to evaluate whether or not exchanging my top later of latex from soft to extra soft might help. It was softer, but latex has enough push back that my knee doesn’t sink in well, even on extra soft. So it was a very useful test. I concluded that I should continue experimenting with toppers that have a more relaxed feel than solid latex. So we rearranged the bed back to s/m/f all inside the quilted cover. For those who are keeping track - the original configuration which my husband has liked best. I put the shredded latex topper on my side to see if it hits the sweet spot of more cushy for my knee and hip joints without letting me sink in so much I have swayback pain. This is the best nights sleep I’ve had so far! Getting very close!
I’m hesitant to buy the lanoodle topper since it is so expensive and isn’t returnable. So today I went to OMF and I bought a 1 inch thick polyfoam topper. It is 1.5lb density and 15ILD - super soft. It is the same material in the pillowtop I’d tried there that was high on the list of mattresses we were considering. And best of all, it was only $50 for a king size. For that price, it was an easy decision to try it next rather than ordering lanoodle. When I brought it home and compared it to the thickness of the shredded latex topper I slept on last night, it was very close. I haven’t slept on it yet, but laying on it briefly today it felt pretty good! And I’m hoping it is thin enough my husband will go right through it and still get the support he needs from the latex. Will report back after we sleep on it for a while.
Hi awoods,
I’m impressed with your incremental “small changes at a time” approach and the analysis you are making based on each configuration. Getting “very close” is good news
I’m looking forward to the results of the polyfoam topper as well.
Thanks again for keeping us up to date with your process and your results.
Phoenix
I’ve been sleeping on the polyfoam topper for several days now. My initial impression was that it didn’t conform to me as well as the shredded latex. However, I know polyfoam can soften substantially, so I have been knee walking across the surface each day to soften it up and it has already softened quite a bit and is conforming better, although I think the shredded latex still conformed more. The extra 1 inch is making a difference for my knee to sink into and fills the gap under my hip pretty well. I think it could be a shade thicker to fill in the gap completely, so I tried folding over the polyfoam topper to test laying on 2 inches of polyfoam (didn’t sleep that way, just did a quick test as I was setting things up). It was obvious immediately that 2" was too much. So I have narrowed in on exactly how much I need to sink in to the surface. I think that 1 1/2" inches would be perfect for my knee to sink into. It is a fine balance though. With the just the 1" polyfoam on top I have been waking up with lower back sway back pain that seems to have become a bit more each day. So I think that this combination is allowing my hips to sink down too much, although I am liking the surface feel. Before I make any modification to the deeper support layers, which will affect my husband (my layers aren’t split - but still time to exchange for split layers if needed), I am going to retry the shredded latex topper. I didn’t sleep on the shredded latex topper long enough on this configuration to know if swayback pain was an issue because I wanted to find out if he could tolerate a topper at all. Good news on that front, the extra 1 inch of polyfoam didn’t make any difference to my husband! So I’m hoping that the springyness of the shredded latex will be just enough push back on my hips to prevent swayback pain. If that works, then the lanoodle topper expense might be the best thing to do since the the s/m/f configuration with a topper could work for us both. So more incremental progress, learning as I go and more ideas to try…
Just an update on my continuing journey. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper on the s/m/f configuration. It seemed marginally less prone to swayback pain than the polyfoam topper, the pushback of the shredded latex helped a little. But still, each day was getting worse. So on the weekend we changed the bed so the layers are s/f/m with the wool quilted cover, and I am using the makeshift shredded latex topper. After just 2 days on this configuration, already the swayback pain is diminishing, and the support under the gap in my hip is pretty good from the shredded latex. I will be giving this configuration a longer try, but based on my experimentation, I think that we will probably be doing a layer exchange for a split middle layer so my husbands side will be s/m/f and my side will be s/f/f. We had hoped to find one configuration that worked for both of us, but after trying out many, we have concluded that we might need a split configuration. For those who are considering purchasing, in retrospect, I wish I’d ordered a solid s layer, but split m & f layers. Would have given us more configurations to try without needing to do an exchange while still having a solid top layer.
Phoenix, what difference will having s/f/m vs. s/f/f make do you think? Going to s/f/f only requires exchanging one layer instead of 2. I think that either s/f/m or s/f/f will keep me from having swayback pain. But it seems like the s/f/f might make the side to side difference in the bed more noticeable (which we’d like to minimize). I want the extra support while sleeping, but don’t want to notice a distinct boundary when we cuddle up to watch tv. Anyone with such a split configuration like to comment on if it feels weird to lay in the middle of the bed for short amounts of time?
Hi awoods,
Even a split top layer can make a difference for some people because it allows for more “fine tuning” configurations on each side of the mattress than having a solid top layer. For example someone that was heavier may choose a medium over soft configuration if they wanted to “firm up” the feel of their sleeping surface (firmer layers tend to feel softer for heavier body types) while a lighter partner may choose to use the softer layer on top.
This would depend on the person themselves and their body type, sleeping style, and where they were in the sensitivity range between “princess and the pea” and “I can sleep on anything”. For many people … particularly if they were less sensitive or were lighter the difference in firmness on the bottom layer would make little difference and for others that were more sensitive or were in higher weight ranges where the compression of the deeper layers were more of a factor it would make a bigger difference. With these types of changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night. The only way to really know with any certainty how much difference smaller changes would make for any individual person would be based on their personal experience.
Most of the “feel” of a mattress comes from the upper layers and differences in the deeper layers would make less of a difference when you first go to sleep at night or over shorter periods of time (such as watching TV) than they would over the course of the night. Split firmness levels in deeper layers will also have a much more “gradual” and less defined boundary than the same differences between layers that are closer to the surface because the layers on top of the split firmness would “smooth out” the transition between them. Once again though … different people can be more or less sensitive to smaller differences between mattresses or between one side and another of the same mattress. I think it would be safe to say that for most people the difference in feel would be relatively small (and some may not notice it at all) and those where it would be an issue would be a much smaller minority.
Phoenix
[quote]changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night.
[/quote]
Thanks Phoenix - this is very helpful! I am pretty happy with now with the initial feel when I lay down. The only remaining issue is a small amount of lower back soreness when I wake up from sleeping all night. I’m hoping that going to s/f/f from the current s/f/m will be just enough to get rid of that last lingering bit of waking up discomfort. It also makes me feel better that having the deeper layers vary isn’t likely to be very noticeable over shorter time periods. That’s exactly what I was hoping. Based on this discussion, I am going to move forward with requesting a layer exchange so that my side will be s/f/f and my husbands will stay at the original s/m/f. Thanks again for being such a valuable resource!
Hi awoods,
Your reasoning makes good sense to me and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it
Phoenix