How Can I Solve My Disaster Bed?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello,

I haven’t been here in over a year, but im hoping someone new or old might have some insight on what I can do.

I am: 170lb, 6’1, lean - combo sleep (SIDE, back)
Wife is: 140lb, 5’7, pregnant - combo sleep (BACK, side)

I currently have the following layers:

A) 6" Dunlop Core Layer (medfirm) (35-40ILD)

B) 3" Dunlop Comfort layer (soft)(20-40ILD)

C) 1" Talalay Latex (soft) (20ILD)

D) 1" Talalay Latex (super soft) (13-15ILD)

E) 1" Foam layer (medium) (30ILD) (honestly feels softer than all the latex)

F) Down & feather topper

We currently sleep with the configuration A + D

We do not use any of the other layers

Every time we add more layers to the bed my back gets absolutely destroyed, my lower back especially. It feels like I am sleeping in an icecream scoop (dramatic overexaggeration) my butt always seems to sink too low relative to the rest of my body.

In our current setup if i sleep on my side it feels like someone has been punching me in the ribs all night, if i sleep on my back ive been starting to get more and more backpain. Wife has been fine almost the entire time, she is not picky but likes things to feel comfortable.

I am at a point where I cannot take this anymore, after a year of sleeping this way my back is destroyed. I have enough money to throw all the bedding away and start fresh with something else (something zoned, probably silk and snow hybrid) or upgrade my car. I would rather spend the money on a car, so before I go the former route I’d love to hear some input.

Notes:
A lot of people on this forum claim an all latex bed is the way to go, i have that, why do i not feel the same?

Why is 1" of comfort layer ok, but as soon as i add another 1" i feel like ive lost all support?

Is there a ‘hackey’ way to give my butt more support, while giving my body more comfort? (Ive tried cardboard under my butt comfort area)

Cheers, hope the forum is going well. If you search ‘DisasterIY’ you can find my previous post.

2

Hello jimlaheytpb,

I’m sorry to hear about your frustrating experience with your mattress. It sounds like you are trying to arrange something to keep your spine neutral (in a straight line), which is good. Zoned latex is a good idea, Obasan is one we are familiar with and sell, and I’m sure there are others.

As far as why you feel like you have lost support when you add more comfort - the softness of the comfort layer has more ‘give’ and so when you have two comfort layers it is twice as much ‘give’ and more work for your back to try to keep your spine straight as many of us naturally need more support in our back/hips area, even with a medium or lean build.

Some solutions could be 1) zoned mattress to provide more support in the hips 2) a board under your side of the mattress, with the caveat that you need to drill holes so the latex can breathe. Cardboard is probably not firm enough to give you support. The board may help if you are sleeping on your back; however, it may not be as comfortable on your side. 3) Take a look at what is holding your mattress. If it is a platform bed, how far apart are the slats? Latex needs good support. 4) Again, if you are on your back, putting a pillow under your knees can help relieve pressure on your back.

I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you! -Kathleen

3

Thanks for the message but plywood and cardboard has not helped. The issue is my body just sinks at the hips and everything else stays up. Latex does not make a good foundation imo.

Im stuck between buying a hybrid mattress and buying a set of coils.

Coils would be way cheaper but im back to this crazy diy shit that doesn’t seem to be working for me.

Im also curious if anyone has ideas for how i can repurpose 6" of dunlop latex 72x84.

Couple of notes. I dont have slats i have a platform.

I dont intend of buying a zoned latex mattress, while i have money saved up i dont have 4k saved up and if i did id try the swiss dream bed.

4

Have you tried any firm layers? Have you tried A + C? What is covering the top 1" talalay?
Also, you don’t mind my asking, where did you find 1" Talalay uncovered? I tried and tried and could not locate any.

5

I mean kind of, the core is pretty firm, just slept on it with no comfort layers and feel like ive been hit by a bus.

A+c is pretty close to our regular setup, haven’t really felt a change.

A local supplier called BFF foam, it is blended i’m pretty sure but the price was right. It took me a while to find someone to call them and order it for me but with a lot of driving and calling i got it done. Not worth it because i hate my bed though imo.

Our sheet is covering the top layer of foam, ive tried quite a few things to cover it differently, but just laying on our jersey cotton sheet has been best, cheaper sheets have no give and do that weird canoeing thing.

6

Since you already have a bunch of layers to work with, I think buying a coil system could be a good solution. I know you’re wary of throwing more money at DIY attempts, but if you got 6" firm coils I think you could probably find something that would be comfortable with the layers you have. Maybe your 6" latex base is just the problem for whatever reason (maybe it’s not good quality or maybe it’s just not right for you) and so nothing you add on top of it can really compensate.

I have scoliosis so I really need support for my spine, but I also sleep on my side (and have kinda pointy hips) so I really need some softness, and I have very firm coils with 3" of medium talalay on top and I find that almost perfect.

Also make sure your platform base really is providing enough support. When I was shopping for (inexpensive) beds I was dismayed at how weak many of them seemed to be. And it can be hard to tell. I used to have what I thought was a perfectly supportive and flat box spring, and then I got a new strong platform base and put my old mattress on it without the box spring, and I could not BELIEVE how much firmer my mattress felt. I thought I had a firm base and a squishy mattress when I actually had a squishy base and a firm mattress (which is generally a terrible combination).

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7

  1. I am not surprised your ribs and back hurt with A+D. The supersoft talalay is too soft for someone your size. You end up pushing right through the supersoft layer and get a lot pressure from the firm core. Also, a one inch comfort layer is generally not thick enough to fill in the contours of your back or side.

  2. I am willing to bet you have a similar problem if you stack C and D together over the firm core. Pressure relief might be slightly better with 2" total but because both layers are soft a) the bony protrusions on your body (shoulders/hips) still bottom out on the firm core b) the combination of super soft/soft provides no support and ruins your alignment 3) the soft layers provide their own form of negative feedback because the more a layer compresses, the more pushback/response you experience (imagine compressing a spring between your thumb and forefinger).

  3. What is A +B like for you? Also what is the correct ILD range for layer B? 40ild for the upper end of the range is incorrect and I assume a typo. Assuming B is 3" of soft dunlop, I would guess that it provides pressure relief but might be too soft/thick to maintain spinal alignment? I would be interested to hear your feedback.

  4. What are possible fixes? You could try more progressive layering or just firm up the comfort layer altogether. For example
    Layer A (6" core) / 2" of 28ild / Layer C.
    or
    Layer A (6" core) / 2" of 28ild / 2" 22-24ild

  5. It is also possible that you might need to adjust the support core in addition to the comfort layer, particularly if the core skews towards the upper end of the range at 40ild. This might look something like:
    32-34ild core / 2-4" comfort layer

  6. Keep in mind that because she is lighter, your wife can get away with a thinner comfort layer. Conversely you may need a thicker comfort layer, but going thicker will then lead to support/alignment problems for your wife.

Sorry it is not a definitive answer.

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8

Also make sure your platform base really is providing enough support. When I was shopping for (inexpensive) beds I was dismayed at how weak many of them seemed to be. And it can be hard to tell. I used to have what I thought was a perfectly supportive and flat box spring, and then I got a new strong platform base and put my old mattress on it without the box spring, and I could not BELIEVE how much firmer my mattress felt. I thought I had a firm base and a squishy mattress when I actually had a squishy base and a firm mattress (which is generally a terrible combination).

I built the frame and platform myself, it is 12 2x4 slats holding up 3/4 inch plywood covering the whole surface on 5 4x4 legs, it is providing plenty of support imo.

I really appreciate this message, I had a lengthy discussion with my wife last night whether the back pain could be an injury from work that is being aggravated, and that I wrongly assume it is the mattress because I wake up in the middle of the with back pain. This wouldn’t just suddenly happen with a mattress that has been somewhat working for us for almost a year now. (A+D).

With this in mind we re-addressed our thought process for the mattress, my original thinking was that my hips were sinking too much, therefore causing my lower back to hurt because the mattress isn’t firm enough. My new thinking is that the mattress is actually too firm, and my hips are too high, causing my lower back to sink to the level of my hips, which is also incorrect and could in theory cause back pain. I came to this conclusion after spending some time on my moms mattress (flippable, 30yr innerspring) and her spare mattress as well.

With this new way of thinking in mind we did the following last night with success, but I’m not 100% sure it is fixed, but I do think we are on the right track. I think another firmer layer is an idea, but I’m not sure yet.

Last nights setup:
Layer A (core) - med/firm 6"
Layer C (comfort) - soft 1"
Layer D (comfort) - supersoft 1"
Layer F (comfort) - down feather topper 2"

This worked nicely, it still feels fairly firm tbh, but I think I’m starting down a new path which might heed my anger in the long run. I should not assume that my mattress is causing my back pain, just because it is my lower back and that it hurts more in the morning.

To answer your question #3 - We originally hated it, I think it is because I don’t like dunlop, it felt like we were on a gym floor, very bouncy, no sink. It might be an idea to try again in the future but I donated the layer to my uncle as Sleeponlatex was nice enough to refund me, but I couldn’t find anywhere to donate the topper to. It is a SleepOnLatex SOFT, they don’t really provide a simple ILD rating on their site (near the bottom)

Lastly, my wife is a saint, she is willing to try anything, she never complains, and she is 5mo pregnant.

She woke up after our experiment on the core layer only with a ‘I feel like it fixed my posture, like it hurts but it feels good you know?’

I didn’t know.

Thanks for the message, it was helpful, and sorry for the long one.

LOVING THE NEW EDIT BUTTON:
I could grab a 1" layer from the supplier that made my other 2 pieces, they aren’t perfect but they are solid for the price. Do you see something you would suggest here for the layer between my two softs and the core?

9

don’t have a lot of feedback on your new setup. On paper I it should provide more pressure relief compared to 1-2". Time will tell how it does with spinal alignment.

As some general feedback, it has been my experience that lower back (lumbar) pain can feel similar whether a mattress is too firm or too soft. In both cases, the lumbar area is unsupported. As time passes the unsupported lumbar muscles fatigue and the end result is pain. It is easy to identify symptoms with a mattress that is at the extremes, but when off by a small amount it can be challenging to identify the cause.

When latex is tested for firmness, it is compressed a fixed amount and a reading is taken. SOL takes this a step further a quotes firmness and two compression depths 25%, and 65%. This is different than the ILD range quoted by other manufacturers. To compare apples to apples, you can ballpark a SOL soft around 20ild.

While dunlop tends to conform less than talalay, a 20ild is still relatively soft in feel. When you say A+B “felt like you were on a gym floor” it is possible that sensation was caused by the firm core, especially if it is closer to a 40ild. The feel of latex will always be influenced by what is below it. If you have a very firm core, the soft dunlop might not feel right.

I can only comment on the latex as I have not tested much foam or visco.

28ild could be used between your current core and comfort layers. 1" is not going to do much though. I have no idea what will work for you but some ideas

6" core/ 2" 28ild / 1" soft
6" core/ 2" 28ild /1 " soft /1" super soft. - careful with the super soft here.
6" core/ 2" 28 / 2" soft
6" core/ 3" 28il / 1" soft

It is also possible to use 28ild as a comfort layer but that depends on you preferences.

If your core is on the firm side ( closer to 40ild) using 32ild as an intermediate layer would also make sense but there are a couple concerns.

  1. is the difference in ild between your comfort layer and the 32ild intermediate layer too big of a jump to yield a good result?
  2. if a more gradual step down in ild is required, you run the risk of making the mattress too thick which results in poor support.
10

I appreciate the message, I think I’m on the right track now.

Im going to spend some time looking for a med/25-28 or so topper. I have found a couple of zoned ones, but im not sure that’s a good idea for a comfort layer. I may drive to the states to get a better deal on a topper. Seeking a 2".

Im in a better mood for sure lol.

11

I signed in today just to see how you were doing. lol. With a baby on the way you both need sleep.

I was wondering if the blended talalay was not “pure” and was more of the blend than the talalay. I agree with others about the 2" topper making more of a difference than 1". I am not lean but not fat and also a combo sleeper side and mostly tummy so I need a firm foundation. I found a 2" soft talalay topper from SleepEz which provides plenty of cushion for the top layer.

Glad you are on the right track for finding the solution. Good luck with the new family member.

hester

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12

Tbh im looking at this right now

Seems to pass most of my checks. But ill keep looking.

13

good luck. Hope the next thing your try is successful. Whoever you source your latex from, call them before hand to verify what ild they are using. What one vendor sells as medium could be another’s medium soft or firm.

14

So i ended up ordering the product i linked, it seemed to be the best bang for the buck and going across the border to pick it up wasnt too bad at all.

Im going to say i consider our bed problem completely solved, we put the new, medium layer, in between our core and our 2 soft latex pieces and voilà… we are both so happy, i haven’t had many issues since. We just sleep. We are comfortable sitting in bed, we are comfortable banging, we are comfortable pregnant, we are thrilled!

I appreciate everyone’s messages here getting me to mentally work through a problem. Cross border shopping meant that something that typically would cost me $700+ ended up costing $300.

:partying_face:

PS: the one con is our mattress is about 600lbs now.