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Discussions General Mattresses Questions
89

Hi Just Right,

I know that they are a fairly long ways away from you but if you are in the mood for a longer drive then Tom at Royal Bedding has a fairly new line line of latex and other mattresses that I like. They include some two sided “base” mattresses using various components (innersprings and latex) that can either be used by themselves (firmer) or with various toppers that are custom designed for them to customize their feel and performance and they have great quality, value and versatility.

I talked with him today for some time and have watched him develop this line (and been one of the people he has bounced ideas off of). He is truly “mattress people”.

Just in case you feel like taking a longer trip to Pelham :slight_smile:

Phoenix

90

Hi Amanda - Things to consider when shopping at a big-box store:

  • delivery: is it really “free”?
  • returns: in-store credit or full refund? Will you need to lug it back yourself?
  • showroom testing often isn’t effective: here’s a link to a study
  • transparency: will they tell you “what’s really under the hood” (density, materials, construction, etc.)?
  • hidden costs: how much is going to pay for commission, showroom decoration, rent, etc.

Of course you can get really good mattresses in stores, but you will generally pay a premium. There is no escaping the costs of operating a physical store which must be included in the price you pay for your bed.

Cheers,
Sam

91

Hi Phoenix,

I looked at the Royal Bedding website and watched Tom’s YouTube videos. Too far away for us.

We did get to see/feel latex mattresses by Denver Mattress Company ( the “I Choice”) and Jamison (the “Skipper”). Both were Queen size which is our preferred size.

The “I Choice” has a 2" latex foam topper as a standard, but removable part. It was confusing because it felt maybe a little too firm without the topper and a little too soft with it. Pretty pricey too ($2399). Too expensive for us.

The “Skipper” felt just right, and its $1399 (after a $300 “instant rebate”). They want another $79 for a water proof mattress cover. Free delivery.

The “Skipper” has 2" of ‘soft’ latex, then 1 inch of “medium” latex, then 7" of “Marriott High Resiliency Ultra Premium Core”. A brief look at their warranty and usage instructions gives me the impression that Jamison expects 1.5" of body impressions and, in general, they read a lot like a national brand’s boiler plate for an inner spring mattress. Not too thrilled about that.

:frowning:

Any advice/insight you can offer about the “Skipper” and/or Jamison will be appreciated.

Thanks.

92

Hi Just Right,

I don’t see an “I Choice” on the Denver mattress website. Do you have a link or the description of all the layers that are in it? Without knowing all the layers besides just the topper there’s no way to make any meaningful assessment of the mattress or compare it to any other mattress although I’m not aware of an “I Choice” that they make (unless its brand new but this certainly seems very pricey for a mattress with only 2" of latex if that’s what it is).

The Jamison Skipper uses all good quality materials and doesn’t have any obvious weak links in the mattress. The upper layers are all high quality Talalay latex and the base foam is high quality/density polyfoam as well. I also know tht jamison is open about the quality of the materials they use. This would certainly be better than average value compared to major brands (and you would also have the assurance of knowing that all the layers in the mattress are good quality with no lower quality of mystery materials).

Warranties have little meaning for me and I put more weight on the quality of the design and materials than the warranty (as you can see in post #174 here). I believe that the TLC collection may have an exclusion of 3/4" and a 1.5" exclusion is more typical of a mattress that has a quilted layer or fibers rather than a smooth top where you are sleeping directly on good quality specialty foam (like latex or memory foam) but I would check this to make sure (with Jamison if necessary). As you mentioned … the exclusion often says more than the warranty itself.

In any case … even though it may not be “best in the country” value … it is certainly better value than most of the mainstream brands which typically use lower quality materials and sell for more and you have the advantage of being able to test the mattress in person.

Phoenix

93

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your comments about Jamison.

Is that a good price ($1,399) for the Skipper Queen? . How about the mattress cover at $79?

We aren’t ready to buy online or travel great distances to check out better alternatives. So, if the “Skipper” and the retailer check out, and there isn’t a quality latex competitor locally, we may “settle” for the Skipper.

Any additional advice, given our situation?

Regarding the “iChoice” by the Denver Mattress Company:

They said the “iChoice” is new. I have some pictures showing what we saw at the store in Madison, AL, including specs, pricing and the mattress itself.

They don’t seem to talk about the removable 2" topper in the literature, but the salesman checked and said that it is definitely part of the set.

I tried adding the pictures as attachments but got a “fatal server error” message. Is there some other way I can get the pictures to you?

Thanks again.

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94

Hi Just Right,

I would say it is in a “better than average” value range and probably “good local value” but not in the “best in country” value range of some manufacturers that would make a similar design but may not be available to you locally. Value itself though has many parts to it and is not just about the “commodity value” of a mattress and when you are looking at a local option there is also real value and lower risk in being able to test a mattress specifically for PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment and Personal preferences). if you are comparing to a online option then I would consider a “local premium” in the range of 20% or so to be roughly “equivalent value” but each person may use a different percentage depending on their own risk tolerance and may also have a different “personal value equation” and different ideas of what is most important and valuable to them when they are buying a mattress.

I don’t know what type of protector you are looking at and there is a very wide range of prices from very cheap to significantly more costly and higher quality but you can see some of the different types of mattress protectors that are available and the pros and cons of each type in post #89 here. A google search on each brand will probably bring up the best value for each of them (and this may change over time). Some protectors offer a warranty when you purchase them at the same time as a mattress but these can be very difficult to make claims against if you have an accident that soils the mattress because they will often claim that you didn’t use proper care instructions and deny coverage. In some cases they will send you a cleaning kit so you can remove the stain yourself and actually replacing a mattress would be very very rare.

I’m not sure what is happening for you or why the error message but if you email me the pictures and the specs at the contact link at the top of the page I’ll be happy to add them to your post.

Phoenix

95

Hi Just Right,

I had to resize the pictures which is why you were getting the error message (the file size was larger than the maximum 2M allowed by the forum software).

They certainly look interesting and they are more costly than the Snowmass and the Aspen they replaced (with less latex) but I do like the design. I would hope it includes the topper.

Do you know if the topper is available in different firmness levels (which I’m assuming is the reasoning behind the name IChoice) or if the mattress itself also has firmness options?

Phoenix

96

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for getting the pictures to work.

One note: the foundation that comes with the bed is not the one you see in the picture of the entire bed. The actual foundation included with the mattress is a box spring and looks plainer than the foundation in the picture.

The assistant manager (Andrew, 256-464-7806) checked for me and said the topper IS part of the set and is included in the price.

Andrew didn’t say so, either for the mattress or the topper. He seemed to be new at showing this mattress, naturally, so maybe there are options like you describe. But, to us, his explanation was that the topper is there to allow the user to change from a firmer to a softer feel. That was “frustrating” to me because my ‘sweet spot’ was somewhere between the two.

It was similar to my “frustration” with a double sided mattress we saw by Jamison called “LEAFWING”. It is firm on one side and soft or plush on the other (neither of which hit my “sweet spot” either). In a two sided, I would rather have the same feel on both sides so I could flip the mattress over for longer life.

97

Hi Just Right,

I switched your posts to a new thread with a title that is more reflective of the content so that others can find it easier.

I confirmed today that the topper is included in the price and that it’s only available in a single ILD. Without the topper they take off $100 but they don’t sell it separately.

He didn’t know the ILD of the topper (or thelayers in the mattress) but I’ll call the production manager on Monday to find out.

If you know the ILD then you can always add your own Talalay topper in the same thickness in a slightly lower ILD.

I agree that this type of design is somewhat “questionable” because if you prefer one side over the other then the odds are much lower that you would use both sides so the durability benefit would be gone. The advantage is that you can change the “feel” of the mattress by flipping it but like you say I don’t think this is as big a benefit of having a two sided mattress that is suitable for your needs and preferences where both sides are the same. It can also work well in a set of twin XL for a couple who may each prefer a different design in the same mattress and then you can flip them and switch sides and still have the same side to side configuration.

In the Leafwing … one side has 4" of soft Talalay and the other side has .4" of Evercloud which is Dunlop latex used for quilting. You could add two 2" toppers to the Evercloud side to make it similar (but not quite the same because of the Evercloud layer) but this would put 4" of soft latex on the bottom of the mattress which is a little too much soft latex on the bottom of a mattress for best support IMO. Basically this is a one sided mattress in practical terms.

Phoenix

98

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for moving and retitling this thread. Makes sense.

Back to the Jamison Skipper queen, which felt just right, I checked out both the local retailer and Jamison with the BBB. Both have an A+ rating.

I also called a Jamison retailer in a nearby town to see if they had a better price. We bought a dinning room set from them years ago, so I had some history there. They opened with $1,599 and were a little crestfallen when I told them that the local retailer was at $1,399. They said they have a price matching policy but we aren’t going to ask them use it. Anyway, they said $1,399 is a very good price.

On Friday, when we saw first the Denver Mattress iChoice and then the Jamison Skipper, I gave both mattresses the sniff test, because I had never been around a mattress with latex. I was hoping that there wouldn’t be an odor issue like I had with all the national brand memory foam mattresses.

I could smell just a very faint hint of rubber, but had to sort of squeeze it out. It didn’t bother me at all.

However, after leaving the Jamison retailer, I had a stinging sensation in my sinuses that lasted for a few hours. Maybe it was a reaction to the variety of materials in the retailer’s showroom (it’s a furniture store, with mattresses as just part of the inventory). Maybe I reacted to the 7" of “Marriott High Resiliency Ultra Premium Core”. The polyurethane layer. Maybe I was just tired and more susceptible (which happens sometimes).

That stinging sensation, whatever caused it, is the last hurdle. I may go back to the retailer and just breathe the air for a while (hopefully without getting arrested for being too sensitive/weird).

:slight_smile:

I’m resigned to the mattress out-gassing some when its delivered. I’ll probably have to sleep in another room for a week or two. I won’t mind if that’s all it takes. I really think the Skipper could make a huge difference in the quality of my sleep.

99

Hi Just Right,

It would be very rare for latex to cause any issues and all Talalay latex has been tested to Oeko-Tex standard 100 category 1 (safe for babies) for harmful ingredients and VOC’s and offgassing so it’s not likely that it would be the cause of your stinging but of course anything is possible.

I also wouldn’t feel too bad asking them to match prices and being “crestfallen” is just part of the “game”. They will still make a fair profit at the lower price and be grateful for your business :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to hearing about your decision.

Phoenix

100

The iChoice is almost twice the price of the Snowmass. Two negatives that I see are: they have a layer of 1.35 foam sandwiched between layers of latex. Also, the topper doesn’t have rounded corners like the mattress which will make it tough putting mattress protectors and fitted sheets on it. I suppose this is a common problem with square cornered toppers…

I wonder if this is an attempt to enter the luxury mattress market with their own product. Unless the topper is available in different ILDs I don’t see advantage. Lew

101

Hi Lew,

I talked to one of the Denver stores today in Denver that had it on the floor (their head office is on answering machine so I haven’t talked with them yet) and have a bit more information.

The mattress only prices including the topper but without a foundation (which makes an apples to apples comparison with other mattress possible) is Twin XL $1849, Queen $2249, and King $2599.

They take $100 off if you buy it without the topper which means that the margin would be higher on a “mattress only” without the topper.

They also told me they have had a general price increase all around which affected the price of the IChoice along with all their other mattresses.

The tick is removeable and is a 4 way stretch which is higher quality apparently than the Aspen and Snowmass and also told me it has some cooling mechanism although they are still waiting for more detailed specs and he didn’t know what it was. The straps that go with the topper as well as the topper/mattress design would also add to the cost of production.

It has 8" of latex (with the topper) which is the same as the Snowmass (and more than the Aspen) although it also has a slightly thicker layer of 1.8 lb poly on the bottom than what was in the Snowmass which would add something to the cost as well.

It’s also much more common for more “luxury” mattresses to have higher margins than budget mattresses so this would probably be part of it as well but overall … while it’s still “better than average” value if you compare it to larger brands … I certainly wouldn’t put it in the same value range as the Snowmass or the Aspen was.

Both the Snowmass and the Aspen also had an inch of poly in the comfort layers and while this is lower density at 1.35 lbs … with only an inch it wouldn’t have a significant effect on durability although I wish they’d used higher density anyway. Durability is also increased when a layer is deeper in a mattress under other layers. To their credit they are putting meaningful specs right on the mattress.

I did confirm that the 2" topper only comes in one ILD “for now” but he didn’t know what it was. His guess was in the range of 19 but detailed specs are still coming.

I like the design overall because a mattress/topper combination when you can test it in person is a more flexible design than having everything inside a finished mattress because the topper can be replaced or changed out if necessary and it at least gives two comfort choices for the mattress.

I also agree with you about the square corners and they could have “finished” it better but this isn’t usually an issue when the protector and sheets are on the mattress and it’s a common aesthetics issue.

I’ll add any more information here as I receive it.

Phoenix

102

I stopped by Denver Mattress this afternoon to check out this new offering. I tried the mattress without topper first. It was nicely supportive and felt much like the Snowmass did on demo: firm but comfortable. It has obviously not been broken in at all, and my Snowmass became much softer. With the topper it is twice the price of the Snowmass, so it is certainly not in the same value class, though a savvy customer might be able to get more than a $100 discount for skipping the topper.

Which brings me to the topper itself. It is very soft, and when I was on my back it got that sinking feeling that I know means trouble for my lower back and shoulders. When I sink into a mattress my butt gets too low and my shoulders bow, causing bad posture and a sore back and sore shoulders in the morning. Obviously this softness and pressure relief is just the ticket for some of us, but the bounciness is a whole other issue. Man this topper is bouncy! :frowning: When I lay on my side I felt like I was lying on Jello. One slight move and I would bounce into another posture. I don’t know how many people would like that feeling. BTW, I am 6’ 1" and about 180 if that helps.

My take is that they need some work on the topper part of this, and a more reasonable discount for not taking it. Lew

103

Hi Lew,

I would certainly agree with both of your points. I was talking with a manufacturer friend of mine today and when I told him about the $100 discount for choosing the mattress only he was disgusted because it gives a great incentive to promote the mattress only at a greater margin and then sell the topper later at a higher price. His comment was “that’s typical of this industry”.

For anyone that happens to look at these I’d be interested to know or have a picture or a description of how the straps on the topper attach to the mattress.

Phoenix

104

They are well attached with a 2 inch or so strap and snap. I took it off to see what it felt like on the Doctor’s Choice firm. It nearly bounced me off the bed. :lol: Lew

105

Hi Lew,

Are there handles on the base mattress that the straps attach to?

I’m curious because of some of the restrictions in the 1633 fire code regarding mattress topper combinations and selling them as a unit and it would be interesting to me to see how they passed the regulations.

Phoenix

106

Phoenix, I didn’t take a close look, but I believe the strap goes through a metal clip, folds back and snaps. I don’t think I would call it a handle. Review the pictures and you can see the strap on the end view of the mattress and the clip on several of the pictures of the topper. BTW, I think I get why they put in the small layer of polyfoam in their mattress. I takes some of the bounce out of the latex, eh? Lew

107

Hi Lew,

Yes … some types of latex constructions are more bouncy or jiggly than others and a thin quilting layer of softer less resilient polyfoam or natural fibers like wool can lower the surface resilience and modify the feel of sleeping directly on latex for those who prefer it.

Phoenix

108

Hi Phoenix,

I’m going back to the Jamison retailer tomorrow to check for proper spinal alignment on the ‘Skipper’. I was satisfied with the lack of pressure points when I tried it out last Friday, but am not sure about alignment. On the website here, you say that it should be hard to push your hand under the persons body if the support is right. Probably much harder under hips/shoulders than lumbar region?

I’m a side (and sometimes) back sleeper, male, 140 lbs, 5’ 10". Knowing that and the construction of the ‘Skipper’, what do you think I will discover, alignment wise?

I’m going to take a length of PVC pipe and a camera with me. And maybe get help from my wife or the salesman to see if I can get a good idea about the alignment. I’ll probably try the other Jamison bed too, especially the too firm side, just to see if I/we can tell the difference with the ‘Skipper’

While there, I want to try out some pillows but don’t know what to look for.

I like the softness of Talalay latex to relieve pressure points on my head, especially my ears. But I’m not sure if the entire pillow should be made of it. What should I be looking for?

Thanks.