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Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
101

Hi Lew,

I talked to one of the Denver stores today in Denver that had it on the floor (their head office is on answering machine so I haven’t talked with them yet) and have a bit more information.

The mattress only prices including the topper but without a foundation (which makes an apples to apples comparison with other mattress possible) is Twin XL $1849, Queen $2249, and King $2599.

They take $100 off if you buy it without the topper which means that the margin would be higher on a “mattress only” without the topper.

They also told me they have had a general price increase all around which affected the price of the IChoice along with all their other mattresses.

The tick is removeable and is a 4 way stretch which is higher quality apparently than the Aspen and Snowmass and also told me it has some cooling mechanism although they are still waiting for more detailed specs and he didn’t know what it was. The straps that go with the topper as well as the topper/mattress design would also add to the cost of production.

It has 8" of latex (with the topper) which is the same as the Snowmass (and more than the Aspen) although it also has a slightly thicker layer of 1.8 lb poly on the bottom than what was in the Snowmass which would add something to the cost as well.

It’s also much more common for more “luxury” mattresses to have higher margins than budget mattresses so this would probably be part of it as well but overall … while it’s still “better than average” value if you compare it to larger brands … I certainly wouldn’t put it in the same value range as the Snowmass or the Aspen was.

Both the Snowmass and the Aspen also had an inch of poly in the comfort layers and while this is lower density at 1.35 lbs … with only an inch it wouldn’t have a significant effect on durability although I wish they’d used higher density anyway. Durability is also increased when a layer is deeper in a mattress under other layers. To their credit they are putting meaningful specs right on the mattress.

I did confirm that the 2" topper only comes in one ILD “for now” but he didn’t know what it was. His guess was in the range of 19 but detailed specs are still coming.

I like the design overall because a mattress/topper combination when you can test it in person is a more flexible design than having everything inside a finished mattress because the topper can be replaced or changed out if necessary and it at least gives two comfort choices for the mattress.

I also agree with you about the square corners and they could have “finished” it better but this isn’t usually an issue when the protector and sheets are on the mattress and it’s a common aesthetics issue.

I’ll add any more information here as I receive it.

Phoenix

102

I stopped by Denver Mattress this afternoon to check out this new offering. I tried the mattress without topper first. It was nicely supportive and felt much like the Snowmass did on demo: firm but comfortable. It has obviously not been broken in at all, and my Snowmass became much softer. With the topper it is twice the price of the Snowmass, so it is certainly not in the same value class, though a savvy customer might be able to get more than a $100 discount for skipping the topper.

Which brings me to the topper itself. It is very soft, and when I was on my back it got that sinking feeling that I know means trouble for my lower back and shoulders. When I sink into a mattress my butt gets too low and my shoulders bow, causing bad posture and a sore back and sore shoulders in the morning. Obviously this softness and pressure relief is just the ticket for some of us, but the bounciness is a whole other issue. Man this topper is bouncy! :frowning: When I lay on my side I felt like I was lying on Jello. One slight move and I would bounce into another posture. I don’t know how many people would like that feeling. BTW, I am 6’ 1" and about 180 if that helps.

My take is that they need some work on the topper part of this, and a more reasonable discount for not taking it. Lew

103

Hi Lew,

I would certainly agree with both of your points. I was talking with a manufacturer friend of mine today and when I told him about the $100 discount for choosing the mattress only he was disgusted because it gives a great incentive to promote the mattress only at a greater margin and then sell the topper later at a higher price. His comment was “that’s typical of this industry”.

For anyone that happens to look at these I’d be interested to know or have a picture or a description of how the straps on the topper attach to the mattress.

Phoenix

104

They are well attached with a 2 inch or so strap and snap. I took it off to see what it felt like on the Doctor’s Choice firm. It nearly bounced me off the bed. :lol: Lew

105

Hi Lew,

Are there handles on the base mattress that the straps attach to?

I’m curious because of some of the restrictions in the 1633 fire code regarding mattress topper combinations and selling them as a unit and it would be interesting to me to see how they passed the regulations.

Phoenix

106

Phoenix, I didn’t take a close look, but I believe the strap goes through a metal clip, folds back and snaps. I don’t think I would call it a handle. Review the pictures and you can see the strap on the end view of the mattress and the clip on several of the pictures of the topper. BTW, I think I get why they put in the small layer of polyfoam in their mattress. I takes some of the bounce out of the latex, eh? Lew

107

Hi Lew,

Yes … some types of latex constructions are more bouncy or jiggly than others and a thin quilting layer of softer less resilient polyfoam or natural fibers like wool can lower the surface resilience and modify the feel of sleeping directly on latex for those who prefer it.

Phoenix

108

Hi Phoenix,

I’m going back to the Jamison retailer tomorrow to check for proper spinal alignment on the ‘Skipper’. I was satisfied with the lack of pressure points when I tried it out last Friday, but am not sure about alignment. On the website here, you say that it should be hard to push your hand under the persons body if the support is right. Probably much harder under hips/shoulders than lumbar region?

I’m a side (and sometimes) back sleeper, male, 140 lbs, 5’ 10". Knowing that and the construction of the ‘Skipper’, what do you think I will discover, alignment wise?

I’m going to take a length of PVC pipe and a camera with me. And maybe get help from my wife or the salesman to see if I can get a good idea about the alignment. I’ll probably try the other Jamison bed too, especially the too firm side, just to see if I/we can tell the difference with the ‘Skipper’

While there, I want to try out some pillows but don’t know what to look for.

I like the softness of Talalay latex to relieve pressure points on my head, especially my ears. But I’m not sure if the entire pillow should be made of it. What should I be looking for?

Thanks.

109

Hi Just Right,

Yes … there should be firm contact under the Lumbar curve and no obvious gaps or areas where the foam is barely compressed or only makes minimal contact. Of course it won’t compress the top materials as much as the pelvic area or the upper back and shoulders because the compression of the foam would be less but it shouldn’t be easy to slide your hand underneath.

I would also keep in mind that alignment is a little more difficult to test for and that both eyballing and “feel” along with the ability of your muscles to completely relax and “let go” with good support under each area of the body can be an important part of testing for alignment. Being completely relaxed (like when you are sleeping) so that the mattress is doing the work instead of muscles is important. The key is to make sure there is no obvious sagging of the spine into the mattress.

There would be no way for me to know this because it depends on your body’s weight distribution (not on just your height/weight), shape (waist/shoulder differential or hip/shoulder differential which determines how far you may need to sink in), the relative surface areas of each area of the body (more surface area spreads weight out more and sinks in less), and on differences between the mattress/body interface in different sleeping positions (each position has many variations which can also change the surface areas that are in contact with the mattress). There are also natural variations in each person’s anatomy so for example if you are a back sleeper your natural curves may be somewhat different from someone else’s (although for side sleepers a “straight” spine is always the goal unless there are health or medical conditions involved).

I would also keep in mind that a slight “bend” in the hips (not the lower back) with the lower legs raised a bit above the hips is actually a good thing because it slightly flattens and decompresses the lower spine (which is also why elevating the legs slightly on an adjustable bed in the back sleeping position can reduce lumbar pressure) so that you don’t confuse a slight bend in the hips with a sag in the spine. The goal is always a straight spine (side) or neutral curves (on your back) but not necessarily a straight body from head to toe.

The goal of a pillow is also to fill in the gaps between your head and neck and the mattress and the shape and size of the gap also depends on each person’s body and their sleeping positions. Beyond this basic “need” though … pillow choices are much more preference based because the face and head is so sensitive. There is some good information and links to some pillow resources and information in the pillow thread here.

There are many people who sleep on “solid” Talalay latex pillows (I have one that is zoned and like it) as well as shredded latex pillows that can be scrunched more to change the shape for those who need or prefer this for multiple sleeping positions). Others don’t like the more resilient or bouncy nature of latex (depending on its softness) as much under their head and prefer less resilient materials with a different feel. As long as the pillow keeps your head and neck in good alignment in all your sleeping positions … the rest is preference.

Phoenix

110

Hi Phoenix,

I saw a little cube cross section of a Jamison ‘Cloudwing’ mattress today (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/cloudwing). It was in a furniture store in another town. The ‘Cloudwing’ seems to be identical to the ‘Skipper’ that I have tested here in Huntsville (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/skipper).

The manager had never heard of the Skipper and could not find it on his price list. He said though that the Cloudwing would certainly be more than the regular Skipper price I ‘quoted’ for him ($1,699).

Is this Jamison’s way of letting different retailers sell the same mattress as their ‘competitors’ without having to match prices?

We’re going back to check spinal alignment on the Skipper tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks.

111

Hi Just Right,

I don’t think that Jamison normally does this but I know they’ve changed their models recently so one may be an older model and one a newer one … even though they appear to be the same on the website. There may also be other differences(such as ILD) that aren’t apparent.

It could also be a mistake in one of the listings because it seems odd to me that they would have two identical mattresses on their website with the same construction.

Phoenix

112

Hi Phoenix,

We went to revisit the Jamison Skipper today (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/skipper). We also tested the Jamison LeafWing (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/leafwing).

My wife took pictures of me lying on both mattresses, including both sides of the LeafWing. These pictures were very helpful as they showed that my shoulders, in side sleep mode, don’t sink into a mattress easily.

As expected, the firm side of the LeafWing was lacking in pressure point relief and didn’t let my shoulders sink in enough. What surprised me was that my shoulders didn’t sink into the Skipper as much I wanted, although better than the firm side of the LeafWing.

So, I tried the soft (plush) side of the LeafWing and my shoulders got in better, my back was straighter and the pressure points on my shoulder were pretty much taken care of.

The LeafWing has 2" of “GL Talalay Latex” ( http://jamisonbedding.com/images/PDFs/JB_Talalay_GL.pdf) then 2" of regular Talalay latex - so it has one extra inch of Talalay latex versus the Skipper, and the different kind of latex. Do you know anything about the “GL Talalay Latex”? The salesman assured me there was no memory foam in it, but just using the word gel makes me nervous since I can’t stand memory foam.

The salesman also quoted one other mattress, the Captain, (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/captain) which he didn’t have on the floor. He said it might be better than the LeafWing for my shoulders, but its more expensive and I’d have to see/lay on one before I would know.

I had the same stinging in my sinuses after we left the store, though not as bad as the first visit. Mostly because I was well rested this time I think. Anyway, we are going to have to visit a Jamison dealer in another town and see if I get that stinging effect after laying on the latex mattresses there. I think there is something in the Huntsville store that is causing my sinus irritation. I just want to be sure its not the Jamison latex mattresses.

Oddly, my wife likes the LeafWing too, but because she finds it firmer and less bouncy than the Skipper.

:huh:

113

Hi Just right,

The Leafwing has an extra inch of latex and both layers are soft (instead of soft over medium in the Skipper) which could certainly make a difference for the shoulders … particularly with men where the wider shoulders are often the “problem” area (in women it’s often the hips).

Talalay GL comes in both a fast response and slow response version. Both have phase change gel (which is not memory foam) added to the latex (it’s also added into some memory foams) to help with temperature regulation … at least for a while until the temperatures equalize (so it can help with falling asleep for those who have real heat issues although Talalay is already the most breathable type of foam and is already more temperature regulating than other foams).

The fast response is very close to their regular blended Talalay while the slow response Talalay GL has a slower recovery that has similarities to memory foam but still has the benefits and breathability of latex.

That’s probably prudent just to make sure but it would be a very unusual reaction to latex.

That just goes to show the subjective nature of softness and firmness and perceptions. I would think for most people the plush side of the Leafwing (with 4" of soft latex) would feel noticeable softer than the Skipper with the extra inch of soft latex (the Skipper has 2" of soft over an inch of medium over the firmer core) but I’ve learned never to argue with each person’s perceptions … and I certainly wouldn’t argue with my DH about what she was feeling :slight_smile:

Phoenix

114

Hi Phoenix,

Yesterday I phoned Jamison to ask two questions. Had to leave a voice mail as not even the ‘operator’ was available. I also used their online query page to ask both questions.

I wanted to know the ILD of each foam layer in the Leafwing and whether the queen Leafwing mattress is a sinlge piece or two side-by-side pieces.

There has not been a peep back yet. I stated in both messages that we are considering buying two mattresses. Normally, I would expect a company to get right back to me, at least in the pre-sale phase.

I think I read somewhere on your mattress forum that another person waited 3 months without success.

Should that be a factor in our buying decision?

115

Hi Just Right,

Jamison is a wholesale manufacturer and their “customers” are the retailers they supply so they don’t have a customer service department geared towards consumer enquiries. This is the norm with many wholesale manufacturers who rely on their dealers to field consumer questions who in turn usually have a direct contact line to their factory rep. If you go through their telephone tree you will see that you have to press a specific number for a specific person and they don’t have a “general” customer service number for consumers.

If you have a question that your dealer can’t answer then the dealer would normally call their factory rep to get the answer or failing that you could email them from their contact page with the specific question you have.

Factory direct manufacturers on the other hand are geared towards direct consumer enquiries.

I should also mention that ILD information is not a “quality spec” of the mattress and many manufacturers don’t disclose this because it wouldn’t be meaningful or necessary information for consumers to know. Your own personal testing on a mattress will provide much more meaningful information about the suitability of a mattress than ILD specs which can be very misleading by themselves. Quality information such as foam density for polyfoam or memory foam or the type and blend of any latex in the mattress are “quality specs” and are much more important to know because you can’t “feel” the quality of the materials when you test a mattress and this will be a big part of making meaningful comparisons between mattresses in terms of durability and value.

So ILD information wouldn’t be a factor in a local buying decision for me and I also wouldn’t “expect” a wholesale manufacturer to reply promptly to a direct consumer enquiry when they don’t have a customer service department that is meant for this so any phone call would be a lower priority for a sales rep than the calls or visits they have scheduled or need to make with retailers.

Quality information on the other hand (foam density for polyfoam and memory foam and type and blend of latex are examples) would be important to me but I would go through the retailer to find this out. If they didn’t know or weren’t willing to find out then if I was seriously considering the mattress I would use the contact form on their site to ask them and probably “expect” some kind of delay in a reply.

In other words … their customer service department is for their retailers and my buying decision would be more about the customer service of the retailer and my ability to find out the quality specs of a mattress (not the “comfort specs”) through them rather than doing the research, or making the calls or sending the emails that the retailer should be doing for me.

Phoenix

116

Hi Phoenix,
I’m new to this site also, but you’ve already stopped me from the purchase I was going to make tomorrow! I was going to buy the Simmons Comforpedic Nourishing Comfort/Balanced Days Plush or the Enlightened Days/Restored Spirits Luxury Plush depending on how they feel to my husband. I liked them both.
We’re moving to newer technology from an innerspring model to try to reduce back pain and stiffness as well as trying to get a full night’s sleep. I’ve done a lot of research and thought first about a natural latex mattress but was put off by the high prices and the many comments that they sleep “hot”. The Simmons advertising for the new TruTemp Gel Touch layer and the Air Cool Memory Foam seemed to answer that problem and at a lower price point. Along with Memorial Day sales, I thought I was doing OK.
Do you have advice for me about alternatives that may be longer lasting, cool, and affordable? Are you familiar with local dealers in the Northern Kentucky (Covington/Florence) or Greater Cincinnati areas that I should contact for local product information that would be a better buy?

Thanks for any help you can offer!

Irish Rose

117

Hi IrishRose,

I’m glad you found us before you pulled the trigger :slight_smile:

The first place to start is post #1 here (which it would probably be safe to assume you’ve read since this is the same thread :)) which is the single most important post in the forum and includes or links to all the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to make good quality/value choices (and just as importantly, know how to avoid the worst ones).

This is fairly typical of the types of comments that are so common all over the internet (or reviews from consumers that don’t really know the specifics of what is in the mattress they are reviewing) which can be very inaccurate or misleading … and confusing. There are many factors involved in the sleeping temperature of a mattress besides just the type of foam used which you can read about in post #2 here but of the three main categories of foam (polyfoam, memory foam/gel memory foam, and latex) … latex as a category is the most breathable and in general sleeps the coolest.

Of course all foams are insulators compared to natural fibers so if you have upper layers of any foam that are too thick and soft or if they are covered with less breathable synthetic quilting or covers or less breathable mattress protectors or sheets then these will all raise the sleeping temperature of a mattress no matter how breathable the layers below them are.

Some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Cincinnati area (including Covington/Florence) are listed in post #212 here.

Phoenix

118

Hi Phoenix,

All you say is very reasonable.

Surprisingly, and pleasingly, the local Jamison rep emailed me today. He said, of the Leafwing:

“The ILD of the GL latex is 21, the soft layer beneath is a 19 and the evercloud I do not have. Note it’s only .5 inch thick. The core is an HD polyurethane that is a special formulation that Jamison has used in the Marriott hotel application for decades. The bed is available in all sizes, the photo is of two twin long matts that would be the same dimension as a king, this shows that the mattress has a firm side and a softer side. A single king mattress on the two boxes is also available. Hopes this helps.”

I know that knowing the ILDs doesn’t say as much as actually lying on the mattress does, but its nice to know, for an amateur bed buyer, that the GL layer is a little firmer than the other 2" of latex below.

I have ‘found’ another Jamison mattress that is one sided but, otherwise, seems very similar to the Leafwing (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/leafwing). It is the Goldleaf (http://jamisonbedding.com/tlc-collection/goldleaf).

Both mattresses have 4" of soft latex on top, but the Goldleaf doesn’t have the GL, so it might be a little softer. On the other hand, maybe not, since it has an extra inch of the high density poly foam in the support layer. The furniture store in a neighboring town that we are visiting tomorrow has both models, so we can test them side-by-side - along with whether or not I get that stinging sensation in my sinuses.

I also found the source of the latex used in the Jamison mattresses. It is Latex International (http://www.latexfoam.com/). They have a great website and they seem to be top notch in every way latex.

I’m very pleased with Jamison and just hope our visit tomorrow can put my stinging sinuses worry to rest so we can buy some mattresses already!

119

Posted this in another thread but wanted to post it here too…by the way we bought: L&P S Cape adjustable base and an Ergo Silhouette Marseilles. Would love your thoughts on these items.

I just want to thank you all so much. My mom has had some health issues that made her need an adjustable bed. My mom is used to buying her appliances/beds at Sears and promptly bought there, as she has been so uncomfortable for so long…just wanted to get it done. Something about the quick purchase didn’t sit right with me, I had heard some kind of reviews before. So last night I looked all over the place, researching reviews, and ended up on this site. My mom has a lot of allergies, and needs good support for her back. It would have been so upsetting to all of us if (a) the new bed made her health issues worse (b) she had to deal with the customer service issues if/when she decided to return the bed later on ( buying through a retailer like Sears). She has enough to deal with as it is.

We followed links on this board to a couple of retailers here in Southern California (orange county) and visited them today, tried out beds the way you all recommended… They were so knowledgeable and helpful! I feel like we dodged a bullet thanks to you all. Cancelled the Sears order. We’re going to end up paying more, but the peace of mind and quality of the product will be worth it for my mom.

I made sure to tell the store that we were referred to them by this site.

Thanks again.

120

Hi Just Right,

Thanks for the feedback and it’s great that they were willing to provide you with ILD information regardless of it’s “real life” value.

The Leafwing and the Goldleaf would have a very similar feel and performance because the 2 ILD difference (assuming that the Goldleaf uses 2" of 19 ILD in the top 2" instead of what latex International calls “soft” which is 24 ILD) would be below the threshold that would be discernible for most people and would also be within the natural ILD variations across the surface of a Talalay latex layer as well. Also assuming that the polyfoam core was the same IFD (firmness in polyfoam) in both then the extra inch also wouldn’t make any significant difference either for most people.

Latex international is one of two main manufacturers of Talalay latex in the world (the other is Radium in Holland) and their bended Talalay is certainly is a high quality material. They are the biggest supplier of Talalay in North America while Radium has larger presence in Europe although both compete in both markets.

I’m curious as well about the source of your stinging sinuses but this would be more typical of a reaction to memory foam or even polyfoam VOC’s and offgassing for those who were more sensitive than it would be to latex.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your next round of mattress testing experiences :slight_smile:

Phoenix