Hi mike7,
There is really no such thing as a 'free" return because all shipping changes in both directions and any costs for a return are included somewhere in the cost of the mattress
Just to use a simple example (in this case for a “finished” mattress where the shipping costs are higher vs a mattress that can be shipped through UPS).
For the sake of this example I’ll make a few assumptions just to make the math easier and to illustrate the point. The assumptions are …
- The business needs a 50% margin (the percentage of the sale that is their gross profit) on their “good” sales to maintain the business.
- The time and labor involved in a return is 15% of the price of the mattress.
- They have a 10% return rate.
- Original shipping of the mattress is $200
- Return shipping for refunds is $200
- They don’t resell their returns and just dispose of the mattress.
- The wholesale cost of the mattress and shipping to get the mattress to the showroom is $500.
- The selling price of the mattress @ 50% margin would be $1000 plus any additional amount that would cover any additional costs.
This means that they could sell this mattress for $1000 if the customer was responsible for the original shipping, any return shipping, and a “restocking fee” of 15%.
The customer would pay $1200 for the mattress if the original shipping was free but wasn’t included in the refund and they were also responsible for the original shipping cost plus the return shipping and restocking fees in the case of a refund.
If a customer refund included the original shipping cost and the company also paid for the return shipping and there was no restocking fee deducted … then the price of the mattress would be based on the “rough” math here …
Price calculation for a mattress where there is free shipping and a full refund of the purchase price including shipping and no restocking.
$5000 for the wholesale cost of 10 mattresses.
$2000 for the original shipping cost of 10 mattresses.
$200 for the return shipping of 1 refunded mattress.
$150 for the time and labor involved in returning 1 mattress (assuming that returns aren’t used as a profit center)
$0 recovery of the wholesale cost of a returned mattress.
$4500 (@ 50% margin) profit on the 9 “good sales”.
$11850 total costs or profit required for the 9 “good sales”
11850.00 / 9 = $1316.67 would now be the selling price of the 9 mattress that aren’t refunded.
In the first case … they would advertise a selling price of $1000 plus shipping. Their return policy would say “full refund less shipping costs and a 15% restocking fee”. This would be attractive to many consumers that didn’t know to factor in the other costs involved and were only “price matching” and compared this mattress to anther one that had the additional costs built in.
In the second case … they would advertise the same mattress for $1316.67 and as part of the main page they could say “free shipping in both directions and a full refund with no cost to the customer”. This would be attractive to consumers that were less risk tolerant but didn’t realize that they were still paying for the cost of returns for themselves and other consumers as well.
With a free return … the customers that don’t return a mattress (the 90%) would be paying for the costs involved for the 10% who do.
There are pros and cons to each.
If I was a customer that had high confidence that the mattress I was buying would work well for me and was willing to take on the risk of the greater costs if I was wrong then I wouldn’t want to pay for the cost of returns for other people. In this case … my "fixed cost’ would be the price of the mattress plus shipping which would be $1200.00.
If I was wrong and needed to return it then that same mattress would end up costing me $1550.00 but this would have been a risk I knew about when I made the purchase and was willing to take on.
If I was a customer that was less risk tolerant or not as confident that the mattress would be suitable for me then I would probably choose the higher cost of $1316.67 because it would be the maximum cost I would pay for the mattress regardless of whether I returned it or not.
In other words … all exchange policies and refund policies or other business costs are included somewhere in the cost of buying a mattress and getting it to the customer. In the case of “free” refunds or exchanges where the customer pays nothing then the customers that make better choices that don’t need to return the mattress pay for the costs involved in the ones that do. The choice between these two different ways of pricing a mattress is up to a business and how they choose to market their mattresses and the choice between a business that used one business model over another would part of each person’s “personal value equation” and risk tolerance.
[quote]Next you post - I have also never said that any mattress (including PLB) can be “duplicated” based on ILD’s alone … as a matter of fact quite the opposite (including in my replies to you).—but you did say
-If you use the same layer thicknesses, the same type of foam made by the same manufacturer, and the same type of cover, then you would have a very close “match”. ILD’s are always in a range (for example blended latex is in a range of about +/- 2)[/quote]
Now you are quoting me correctly … but not the first time. There is a big difference in trying to duplicate a mattress based on ILD alone and duplicating a mattress where all the components and specs are the same. I would strongly discourage the belief that the first was possible or likely because it simply isn’t true and would lead to consumer expectations that weren’t realistic. The second would mean that the two mattresses were virtually identical but the problem here is the ability to find out all the specs of the original mattress and then make sure that the same or functionally identical components and materials from the same supplier in the same layer thicknesses and ILD’s and design are available from the manufacturer or retailer you were dealing with. If the components or materials weren’t exactly the same then you would be looking at a mattress that “approximated” the mattress you were trying to “duplicate” in one or more ways (which were outlined in my previous link in post #9 here).
Facts don’t need “defending” … but statements such as these or are only “partly accurate” do need correcting so that others who read them don’t make the mistake of thinking that what you are saying is completely accurate. In other words … they do have a return policy for their “standard” designs and if a “standard” design is functionally equivalent to a mattress that you hope to approximate then there would be a return policy. If either they or you believed that you wanted to buy a mattress that was exactly the same in all ways and they had access to all the components and layers that made this possible in a custom design or if they had to customize one of their standard designs in a way that made it unique to you because you both thought it would be “closer” to the mattress you wanted to “duplicate” even if it wasn’t exactly the same … then there would also be no returns. The choice would be up to each customer to decide whether the risk was worth the reward based on the criteria of their own personal value equation and risk tolerance. So the return policy would depend on the choices you made.
Hopefully with the previous example it now makes more sense to you. There are no “certainties” when you are buying a mattress … only degrees of risk. The goal of this site is to help each person understand the risk involved in every purchase and assess their own risk tolerance and the likelihood of making a choice that is “less than ideal” in a more realistic way and recognize and assess the risk involved in any purchase. This way they will have more realistic expectations and can replace hindsight with foresight. Everything is a matter of “how much risk” is involved and the benefits connected to that risk and how well a consumer anticipates and thinks through all the parts of a mattress purchase that they may not fully understand or anticipate so that price alone isn’t mistaken for the “value” of a purchase.
This is the reason that I refer to each person’s “personal value equation” so often because most consumers have come to believe that a manufacturer or retailer is somehow responsible for what they choose or can somehow predict the feel or performance of any mattress for a specific person when in fact there is no such formula or certainty and there are so many variables that only each person’s personal experience (before or after a purchase) can really know whether a mattress is suitable for them. A consumer is always responsible for their choices and the risks they take and a manufacturer’s suggestions are based on the “averages” of people with similar body types, sleeping styles, and circumstances. The success of any online purchase will depend on how well you fit into the averages they use, their experience, knowledge, and “educated intuition”, and on the accuracy of the information you provide them.
It’s not likely you will be able to learn enough to make a mattress choice based on “theory” or “specs” without a great deal of experience lying on many combinations of materials and layers and the perseverance and learning it would take to come anywhere close to having the skill to design your own mattress (or duplicate another one) based on specs alone. This can be a lifetime study and even those with decades of experience are still going through a learning curve and are still surprised in many cases when a new mattress they design doesn’t feel anything like what they thought it would. This is why I stress so strongly that your own objective and careful testing is so important and beyond this then “dealing with an expert” that already knows what you would otherwise have to learn along with good recourse if you are uncertain about your choice is the most effective approach. Consumers who believe that a manufacturer or retailer has a “crystal ball” that can predict with any certainty how a mattress will feel or perform for them and don’t include the risk of a return in and their recourse in their “value equation” or the benefit of having a way to make changes to the mattress if it needs to be “fine tuned” are the ones who are most often disappointed … and who tend to blame a manufacturer for the choices they alone are responsible for making.
None of the members here who have purchased a mattress or even dozens combined who have purchased the same mattress as a group will have anywhere near the knowledge of a manufacturer or retailer about their own mattresses or have the ability to provide you with guidance that is as meaningful for any specific person. Reading reviews and believing that anyone else’s experience can or will apply to you is one of the biggest mistakes that consumers make when they are buying a mattress (see post #13 here). Each person will interact differently with the same mattress and have a different set of perceptions and even a few dozen “reviews” won’t provide you with anything close to the kind of guidance and accurate information that you can get from a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer who is drawing on the experiences of thousands of their customers.
None of this is personal … just part of the educational function of the forum.
Part of the purpose of the forum is to help “correct” some of the assumptions that many consumers or members here make when they are shopping for a mattress and to help them better assess the accuracy of some of the information (or assumptions or implications) of what they read here.
Each post like some of yours provides a chance to respond in a way that can help others avoid any of the same assumptions and use what you have written to help them look at a mattress purchase in a different way that is much more likely to lead to realistic expectations, make more informed decisions, and have much higher odds of success.
Phoenix