I am looking at possibility of purchasing a Natural Living Carolina Guild Mattress. I can not find any information or reviews on this mattress except what the sales women gave me.
The mattress consists of
Top Bamboo Ticking
Silk and Wool fibers
1.5’ Convoluted soy fibers (trizone)
1’ Plush Quitlflex foam
2.75 Natural Latex foam
1’ Comorlatex Lumbar padding
6.5" Soy foam support
4.5 oz Poly fiber Airflow Base
Does this sound like a good latex bed and does any one know about the support and break down of Soy Foam. I can not seem to find much info on this company or soy foam, We like the comfort of the bed.
I would like to purchase a latex bed with a reasonable cost. I am also looking at Dreamfoam out of Arizona through Amazon
but can not lay on and try.
Please let me know what ever information you know to help me make a decision.
Thank you,
Anne
Hi annie54,
Some of the information you received may be a little bit mixed up and the order of the layers may not be quite accurate. There’s a list here on the CMG site which describes most of the materials they use.
1.5’ Convoluted soy fibers (trizone)
This would be the convoluted soy hybrid foam not fibers. It would likely be under the quilting foam (quiltflex).
The salesperson may have been mixing up fiber with foam.
Soy foam or “soy hybrid” foam is just polyurethane foam which has had a fairly small percentage of the petrochemical polyols (one of the chemicals used to make polyfoam) replaced with plant based polyols. While this is a small step in a good direction … it is still just polyurethane foam. Almost every foam manufacturer makes a version of this type of foam to cater to the “green” movement although the claims for it or how “green” it is are usually quite exaggerated and used as a form of “greenwashing”. In terms of quality/durability and how fast it will break down … it would be comparable to “regular” polyfoam and the density of the foam used is the most important factor, just like any polyfoam. The higher the density the more durable the foam will be.
The “weak link” of this mattress (the part that is most likely to soften the most quickly) is the quiltflex foam and the 1.5" of convoluted soy foam (polyfoam). I would want to know the density of the convoluted foam. The quiltflex is a very open celled breathable polyfoam used to provide the surface softness of polyester fiber without being subject to compressing and getting firmer like fibers. It is already very soft and is only an inch so its further softening may not make a lot of difference except in combination with the softening of other layers. Any fibers in the quilting will compress and become firmer to some degree over time.
Which model is this? The specs don’t seem to fit either the Vibe or the Sanctuary (although it seems closer to the sanctuary).
The most difficult part of mattress shopping at many retail outlets is getting accurate or complete specs. While there are some good materials in this mattress … I would also want more information about the more “questionable” materials.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I just spoke to factory they told me the density of convoluted soy foam is 1.5 inches. Not sure that is the answer you are looking for. The mattress is the savvy Model.
Also do you know anything about Dreamfoam bedding. They sell through Amazon $699 for a kin that is 3" of Natural Latex with 5.5 inches of HR polyurethane foam for bottom.
Not sure which bed looks the best. Would appreciate your help.
Thank you,
Anne
Hi annie54,
They were probably saying that the polyfoam was 1.5 lbs (not inches) which is on the lower end of polyfoam density. It is better quality foam than the 1.2 lb or lower that is also often used in mattresses (and is much lower quality) but it will also be subject to softening more rapidly than higher density foam. There are also many other factors though that are part of the durability of a mattress (such as the layer thickness, where in the mattress the layer is, what is over and under it, and whether it is one or two sided, construction methods and other factors) but in general foam density is the single most important. The price of a mattress also dictates the quality of a foam that can be used and lower budget mattress can be expected to use lower quality/durability materials. The goal of course is to make sure that you don’t have lower quality materials in higher priced mattresses.
If the 1.5 lb polyfoam is also 1.5" thick and there is another inch of quilting foam … then you have a total of 2.5" of lower density foam in the upper part of the mattress which is more than I would be comfortable with unless the mattress was in a lower budget range and there was “room” for the mattress to soften without affecting support and alignment. No matter how good the latex may be … the weak link will still be the polyfoam in the mattress although this is probably better value than many other mattresses that you could buy in most mattress outlets.
There are really two approaches to buying a mattress. Either become an expert (which takes a lot of time and effort to do the research) or to buy a mattress from an “expert” who already knows what you would otherwise have to learn. If you are dealing with someone who already knows about the different types of foam and can answer your questions about what is in each layer of a mattress … and they also have your best interests at heart … then you don’t need to learn everything yourself or even worse spend hours or days trying to find out the information that you need to make a good decision (and sometimes this information isn’t even available anyway because many manufacturers don’t want consumers to know).
If it becomes too difficult to find the information you need to make a good decision … or if the outlet can’t or won’t provide you with the information about the layering of their mattress (and they should be the ones making the calls to the manufacturer not their customers) … then I would hesitate to buy from them at all. Lots of people don’t ask for this information so the salespeople are “used to” just swelling on comfort alone but if you look online and see how many people are unhappy with the mattress they bought in the mid and long term … then it only makes sense that consumers start insisting that the manufacturers and outlets start providing this information and making it easy to know.
What you really want is a layer by layer description of the mattress where all the descriptions of the layers and layer thickness are in the same order as they are in the mattress so you can not only see what every material is but where in the mattress it is as well (which has an effect on durability because the closer to the top a layer is the more wear and tear it is subject to and the more important it becomes to use durable materials).
Dreamfoam bedding (a brand of Brooklyn Mattress) is one of the members of this site and of course I know them well. This means that I believe they have among the best quality and value in the country. All the members also provide a bonus or a discount to any of the forum members who buy from them (in the case of the Dreamfoam the bonus is their shredded latex pillow if you let them know your username here). They also will customize the comfort layer to the ILD of your choice and Chuck (who you would likely talk with) is very good at helping people make the best possible choice. While there is added risk with buying online and their mattresses are not returnable … they have many happy customers that have bought a mattress that would cost significantly more if it was compared to a similar mattress in a chain store or most other outlets. A forum search on “Ultimate Dreams” (you can just click the link) will bring up more information and feedback about them.
It is likely much better value than what you are looking at (you didn’t mention the price of the mattress you are looking at) which in turn is probably better value than many other mattresses. It uses high quality 2.35 lb polyfoam in the base layers with a 3" talalay latex comfort layer (with 1.5" of quilting foam on top) but of course quality and value have little to do with whether a mattress provides you with the pressure relief and alignment that works for you. It does have a lot to do though with how long it will keep doing what it’s supposed to do. Even a mattress that uses the cheapest materials can feel good in a showroom … it just doesn’t stay that way for very long.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
The Savvy mattress that I spoke about above has 2.75 Dunlap Latex versus Talalay. I was not able to find out anything about the density of soy foam trizone. I can buy this mattress and foundation at $1499. It seem very comfortable. I did like the height on mattress being 12.5" versus 10 inches on dream foam bedding. Also like the idea I do not have to look for foundation. They also carry a Peaceful mattress with an extra 2" convoluted latex on top of the natural latex of 3’’ 19lb Dunlap latex a bit pricier. I also tried out the PureBliss Natural mattress which was wonderful but not in my price range. I felt I was in heaven on this mattress but price range of $4000. Very confused now.The sales Representative from Carolina mattress they have a 2% failure rate. Would love you help here.
Annie
Hi annie54,
Unfortunately this is fairly typical. I don’t know if you were dealing with a salesperson or the factory but in many cases the salesperson won’t make the effort to call the factory to find out if the information isn’t on their printed material (even though this is exactly what they should be doing) and in other cases the factory itself won’t provide the information even if they ask. These are the types of questions that everyone should be asking (because it’s the only way to know the quality of the material) but unfortunately most consumers haven’t learned to do this yet so the sales people tend to just shrug off the questions.
They themselves often don’t realize how important this information is because they have been trained to talk about “comfort” rather than how long the comfort will last. Even the lowest cost and quality materials will feel comfortable in a shoroom … they just won’t stay that way as long. They tend to encourage consumers to believe that the warranty will protect them and is a standard for how long a mattress will last when of course the warranty has little to do with either and doesn’t cover loss of comfort or support or the softening of the foam. Warranties are mostly a sales tool more than they are protection against a mattress that becomes uncomfortable too quickly because of the use of lower quality and less durable materials.
100% Dunlop latex (not blended dunlop) and blended Talalay latex tend to be in roughly the same price range and Dunlop will tend to feel firmer than the same ILD of talalay. While Talalay tends to be the preference of more people in a comfort layer … this is more a matter of personal preference not “better or worse”.
The height of a mattress has little to nothing to do with it’s quality or price and the idea that thicker mattresses are either higher quality or justifies a higher price is one of the biggest marketing tools used by the industry. The price of a mattress is about the quality and cost of the components and materials in it and more low quality foam to give a mattress more height is actually a negative and will lead to a less durable mattress. This is another marketing “trick” that many people encourage consumers to believe because it sells lots of mattresses that have lots of cheap polyfoam, have a great “showroom feel” and provides higher profit margins for the manufacturer and the retailer.
An extra 2" of Dunlop would add to the cost of the mattress but the most important part is to identify the weak link of a mattress. No matter how many “strong links” it has … if there is too much lower quality material in the mattress … especially in the upper layers … this will be the main reason a mattress loses comfort and support. The “good” doesn’t outweigh the bad. While an inch or so of low density polyfoam in the quilting or top layers of a mattress will have little effect on a mattress over time (it’s too thin for the further softening to have a lot of effect), if these layers are in the range of 2" or more then they become the weak link of the mattress and you are paying more for something that will shorten the useable lifetime of your mattress in most cases. Without knowing the density/quality of any polyfoam layers that total 2" or more … I would pass the mattress by … especially in the price range you are looking at.
The retailer is responsible for finding this information out and they need to learn that these are important questions that should be “expected” rather than trying to distract a consumer away from them or implying that they aren’t important by talking about vague, subjective, and easily managed showroom perceptions of “comfort”. The better retailers insist on having this type of “quality” information from the manufacturers and brands they sell or they don’t allow them on their floor.
They are not talking about a “failure rate” here but a warranty return rate and since most warranty claims are denied because they don’t have a deep enough impression (and softening and loss of comfort or support is not a warranty issue) … all warranties will show lower return rates than the actual long term satisfaction rates of a mattress. People who can’t sleep on their mattress any more and replace because the issues they are experiencing are not covered by a warranty are not part of this 2%.
While it’s true that CMG may have better quality than major brands (who use even more lower quality materials and charge even more for them) … they should still provide essential specs on their mattresses … especially when there are alternatives that use known higher quality materials and don’t have the same “weak links” or that the materials are disclosed. Even the base foam of the Dreamfoam (it’s 2.35 lbs density) is likely much higher quality/density than the CMG and I would want to know the density of this as well … especially in your price range.
If you buy a mattress that has this much unknown material in it (which is likely lower density and quality) … then if you buy it I would lower any expectations you may have about how long the mattress will remain comfortable and supportive and that your purchase is “buyer beware”. Would you pay this much for a mattress that may only be comfortable and supportive enough for you for 5 years? I would personally insist that the outlet find out the information that you need to make a more meaningful decision about the mattress.
Phoenix
Got a call into them to see if they can give me answer if not I am going with Dream Foam already too tired to research any more. I will let you know. Thank you so much for all your information it has been very helpful.
Annie
Hi Phoenix,
This is what the sales person told me. I am not sure if this is good? What is your opinion?
Density is correct. Most foams have densities from 1.0 to 1.8. 1.8 being used in cores and 1.5 down to 1.0 are used in comfort layers. CMG uses nothing less than 1.3 density foam in our beds. (From Bill)
Thanks you for all your help.
annie
Hi annie,
If it’s 1.5 lb foam then my previous comments would apply (it’s on the low side but not as bad as the 1.2 lb foam that is quite common). The durability of this would depend on a lot of factors including where in the mattress it was used (your list looks like it’s in the top layer but this is probably not accurate because the quilting foam at least would be over it). The range of foam densities they use is better than some but not as good as many other smaller manufacturers.
Polyfoam density ranges from about 1.0 lbs as he mentioned (sometimes even lower) but ranges up to over 3 lbs. There is HD foam which is more conventional (and the 1.8 lb HD foam is commonly used in fiirmer versions in a mattress support layer as he mentioned) and HR foam (which is from 2.4 lbs and higher and is a high performance and more durable polyfoam). It is less common (but desirable) to see higher density of 1.8 lbs and higher in the comfort layers of a mattress and he is not correct that 1.8 and higher is only used in support cores. It’s better yet to see HR foam used in comfort layers (and it is) but of course this also is a more costly material.
The key with polyfoam is also where it is used. It’s especially important to use higher quality foam in the upper layers which are more subject to repeated compression and mechanical stress (which softens the foam) and the closer to the top of a mattress a foam layer is the faster it will wear.
This means that the mattress has a total of 2.5" of polyfoam that would be subject to softening. This is not as “bad” as many other mattresses but it’s also more than I would tend to prefer. The thicker the layers that are subject to softening … the greater the likelihood that the mattress could lose it’s comfort or support over time. How long this takes depends on how much “softening room” a person has before they cross over the line and go outside the range of their needs and preferences.
Of course it’s also zoned which means that it can help to some degree with alignment but it’s also more risky than thinner layers of lower density polyfoam. I will also say that it should be much easier to get meaningful specs and this should be the job of every good retail outlet not the person that is considering buying a mattress. Good specs would also include the correct order of the layers.
Which of your choices is “best” would of course depend on your personal “value equation” and what is most important to you … including of course the price. My tendency would be to count the extra polyfoam as mostly a durability negative and then ask yourself if any other positives of buying this mattress vs your other options offset this.
Have you looked at any other options in your area that may offer latex that you could also test personally? It’s unlikely that the CMG is your only local option.
If you let me know the city or zip where you are I’d be happy to look if there are any I know of.
Phoenix