Hello,
In the past year my lower back pain, whose origin stems from a car accident many years back, has been exacerbated by a relatively cheap memory foam mattress. Said mattress was a Comfort Dream of Medium firmness (composed of: 2" 3.5lb foam, 2" 3lb foam, 2" 1.4lb urethane and 5" 1.5lb urethane), which while it lasted provided sufficient support and pressure point relief; unfortunately, the comfort layers broke down resulting in me bottoming out and becoming somewhat disabled by lower back pain. I should point out I’m a side sleeper who is 5.6 and ~190lbs (30.7 BMI).
Well, about 3 months ago, I purchased a Sleep on Latex (SOL) medium mattress (composed of 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop latex, 1" wool cover, 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop, and 6" 5.2lb 34 ILD Dunlop). The medium mattress’ comfort layer wasn’t thick enough (and my hips hit the support layer) so I ordered a soft SOL 3" topper (20 ILD Dunlop), which made me feel too lofty and undermined the support I need for my lower back. This led me to a 2" soft topper which helped with my back pain. I still have the mattress and topper but am nearing the end of the trial and need to make a hard decision. It hasn’t been easy adjusting to it but my lower back pain pretty much disappeared all day/night, which is phenomenal. Unfortunately, my shoulders get numb and tingle all day.
I have also tried a Bear Mattress composed of memory foam top layer and quick response foam transitional layer totaling 5" ranging from 3.5-1.8lbs and 9-22ILD, and a support layer that is 5" 1.8lb 36 ILD. Apparently Bear changed their layers and won’t divulge anything more than that. The mattress had too much comfort and like the 3" SOL Dunlop topper undercut the support I need. It did help with the pressure points however.
In your opinion, how can I keep the support of a mattress (preferably latex) and get rid of numb shoulders? I’m afraid a soft SOL latex mattress wouldn’t provide enough support. Would a comfort layer of latex <20 ILD help? Am I better off trying a memory foam mattress like a Novosbed whose composition somewhat resembles my first mattress but has denser layers of higher quality?
Thank you kindly for reading my email and for helping someone improve the quality of his life.
Patrick
Dont wanna but in too much here, but what kind of mattress did you get again? It seems you listed a medium as
(composed of 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop latex, 1" wool cover, 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop, and 6" 5.2lb 34 ILD Dunlop)
Is that 2 x 2" layers of 20 ILD dunlop? Or is the mattress, as ive seen it, only has 1x2" soft layer above 6" inches of support with 1" wool cover.
I have experience w/ this, so i can throw my 2 cents in real quick. Dunlop gets firm relatively quickly compared to talalay. So if you have 2x2" inches of material, that can put more pressure on your shoulders if your body is sinking into the toppers more. Have you double checked your alignment side sleeping? The numbness and tinglyness can come from shoulder pressure and/or alignment problems. I get it if my upper back caves in too much (kyphosis). ARe your shoulders comfortable w/ the 2" topper on the medium latex mattress? Or do the feel compressed. Do they feel compressed w/o the topper? You may be experiencing a slight differential between hip and shoulder support. Trading one for the other. Something i have been struggling with for a long time.
Make sure you’re aligned properly and your pillow is of the right thickness. Your ears should probably be somewhat in line w/ your shoulders. Neck not too bent either way. That’s a good start.
Did you feel pain w/ the “bear company” mattress? Pain from the lack of support?
As far as what to do in the long run. I would say support and alignment should be your priority. SOL only sells dunlop processed latex material. So all their mattresses are dunlop in design. Your other option is to try talalay next. 2 inches or 3 inches may be a good start. That material is softer overall and has much more give to it. That may be all you need. That 3 " SOL topper is dunlop and can add to pressure points differently than talalay.
But i will defer to the expert if he thinks im wrong.
Thanks for the reply and the below correction.
Re: composed of 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop latex, 1" wool cover, 2" 4lb 20 ILD Dunlop, and 6" 5.2lb 34 ILD Dunlop)
*The 2" above the wool cover is the topper, and not the mattress.
I have a new cheap pillow but have considered a SOL high loft Dunlop pillow wondering if this would help.
The Bear Mattress didn’t provide enough support and gave me lower back pain. The comfort is great, however. I felt like my hip sunk in too much and I got out of alignment.
Patrick
Yeah that’s highly likely. If you feel out of alignment or different, than you probably are. Any pillow that keeps your head at a height high enough to not crush the shoulder is enough. Cheap or otherwise.
But do you feel like your shoulders compress at all on the new mattress? With or w/o the 2" topper on top?
Mike,
Yes, the shoulder pain is with the 2" soft Dunlop topper on the medium Dunlop mattress. I can’t handle the mattress without the topper - it’s way too much on the pressure points as I hit the support layer.
My hips are relatively fine on the topper. I would think my hips would sink deeper than my shoulder so I don’t think my shoulder is hitting the support layer through 2" topper + 2" comfort of mattress. I think the 20 ILD may be too firm for my shoulders? I’ve read some articles that state Talalay being softer than Dunlop is a myth and the two are nearly identical in feel.
Thanks,
Patrick
As someone who had lower back pain as well, the best configuration that worked for me was (bottom to top) F/M/M (all Dunlop) with the denser sides of the layers (large holes) facing up. I seemed to be experiencing lower back pain with both the Medium Talalay and Soft Talalay. These are SavvyRest’s layers, so I can’t tell you the ILD for them, though. They are somewhere in another thread in this forum.
For reference, I am 5’ 10" and around 140 lbs. (female). I do not experience any shoulder issues with the configuration I have.
It is no myth. Talalay and dunlop are 2 different processes. Dunlop gets firmer faster. Talalay gets firmer more slowly. If you try them both you will understand. However, they can be very similar in feel depending on the layering and where you place them aswell as the person laying on them and their sensitivities. If you’re talking about pressure relief, talalay can help better than dunlop if the dunlop is firming up too fast for your shoulders. The only option you have left since you have an all ready soft dunlop (and anything firmer would make problems worse) is to either try a softer dunlop, or to try a soft talalay. Which would allow you to sink in further, while helping to relieve PPs. But the firmness would be a guess. Medium maybe a bit better (22-27ish ILD), but soft (19ish ILD) might work too. I cant know for sure.
As far as DRs suggestion, you could try flipping it to see if that helps. Though the bottom layer may be too thick for that to work. But couldn’t hurt to try it.
You could also try this. Put the 2 inch dunlop under the mattress. that might help soften it up where you need it to. While retaining the firmness and support you need.
Also how removeable are the layers? Is it glued on? Because you could also try that 3" inch SOL topper on the dunlop base if you can remove the 2" on the top.
And where are u getting the tingling in your shoulders? Head of the hummerous? Or the shoulder blade?
I have wide shoulders compared to my hips, so i have to put a pillow under my ribcage to keep it from sinking in further than my shoulders to help take pressure off. If my ribs sink in too far compared to my shoulders, i get shoulder pressure all night long. Very uncomfortable to sleep on. With dunlop this can be a problem because you need to sink in to get that relief.
Mike77,
I get the tingling down the shoulder throughout the arm during the day.
Good to know about Talalay. I will consider a topper. Any recommend for vendors?
Before doing so, I will flip the topper as recommended by DR; also insert under mattress to soften.
The layering of the mattress is glued so not much liberty there for variable combinations.
Thanks again,
Talalay is more expensive, but i found good vendors on ebay. Low prices Ultimatesleepstores is one seller i use.
However, if you can afford it, other vendors exist if you can afford higher prices and return shipping for exchanges. A google search for talalay mattress toppers will bring up a few. Depending on where you live, it could be cheaper to use if the store is close by or return shipping is in the same state. Have you checked for local stores with returns in your area?
Yeah glue is an issue. Its better to find a good latex mattress that allows you to more freely configure and remove layers. Have you checked Savvyrest at all? They sell latex mattresses.
Lots of “mattresses in a box” too. You could easily return this and try some others, rather than forcing yourself to get stuck with this one.
Just a thought.
And finally, if you still have that 3" soft topper. You can try to flip the mattress, and place that ALONE on the dunlop support layer. If that provides relief, then at least you know you’re probably in the right direction.
Good luck.
Hello Dormir7
Thank you kindly for your inquiry, as well as the information concerning your mattress and components! And thank you Mike77 for your input and feedback…which is always appreciated!
I would have to agree concerning a Talalay topper (possibly a 3") in the 19-20 ILD range. Talalay is a bit softer and more contouring compared to that of Dunlop. If you are still feeling a tingly sensation at the shoulders with a 20ILD Dunlop, then a Talalay topper of similar ILD rating maybe just the change that will eliminate that feeling in your shoulders.
SleepEZ offers Talalay layers in both 2" and 3" layers. You can use the Mattress Underground discount code to get an additional 10% off the listed price. The code is MUG10. SleepEZ offers a 30-day money back guatantee for all toppers, as well as a 30-day one-time exchange policy. This eliminates most of the risk in trying Talalay sight unseen. The website is: www.sleepez.com.
Please keep us posted as to what you decide, and how it works out for you. Let us know if we can answer any other questions. Thanks again!
Sleep EZ,
Will a 2" Talalay topper (of comparable ILD) offer the same support as a 2" 20ILD Dunlop topper?
If a 3" Dunlop topper didn’t provide the needed support as I discovered, I have some reservations about a 3" Talalay topper.
Thanks
Based on the info provided above… Its not support you are needing…but instead contour. Tingly sensations in the shoulders is caused by too much support…which results in pressure points. A 3" Talalay, or even a 2" Talalay will provide added contour that you are not getting with the Dunlop. It sounds as though you are receiving plenty of support from your mattress below.
If i am reading this wrong, I apologize. Please keep me posted. Thanks again, have a wonderful night!
With the 3" Dunlop Topper, the softness was a rehaul on the mattress which seemed to undercut the support of the mattress. I’ve seen a similar problem with the Bear Mattress in that I wasn’t feeling the support layer enough for my lower back which has a history of pain. It seems to be a delicate balance…
Its always hard to say (as phoenix calls it “theory at a distance”) what someone needs. What i find is that the more my body sinks in, the softer the material has to be, otherwise my shoulders hurt more.
But it depends on what you’re sleeping on top of. If my ribcage sinks in too much, my shoulders start to get pressed on a lot. Since you’re basically sleeping on a really firm dunlop support layer, and a super soft dunlop layer, it may be that the extra talalay wont help much. But its hard to say, as it depends largely on how far you sink into the
mattress as it is.
Heres one thing to try:
Lay on the mattress as is. No toppers. Right side up.
If you find that your ribcage is sinking in all ready pretty far, and your shoulders have quite a bit of pressure on them, then adding a topper to that might not do much for you.
But then again, it may work if you go for a 3" talalay it might work better because it has the most potential to change the support in the mattress… 2" almost feels like it might not in that scenario. It depends on how far your ribs sink in. If you feel like your shoulders are “freed up” by not sleeping with a topper on top, then a 2" talalay topper might do the trick, as it would further contour your body.
All in all, the pain is the 2" soft dunlop you have stuck on top of that. Which is why i recommended trying other brands that are more configurable. Anything you place on top of that will be “augmented” by it. And you may lose support in some areas and gain it in others. Something firmer on top might help than something super soft so you dont sink through too much. Which is why i suggested the medium 2" (22-27) instead of the soft. Maybe even the 28 ILD (id start w/ the medium 22-27)? Something even super soft may “contour” too much and just crush right down.
Anything you get, it will help to have a good return policy if money is a problem.
Thats about all i can come up with. Good luck.
Mike77,
Thanks very much for your time and thoughtful consideration. I do appreciate it.
I will give your suggestion of testing the mattress w/o topper for ribcage and shoulder compression.
I do wonder if a soft SOL mattress (9" Soft - 24 ILD 6" core with a 2" 20 ILD top layer) would satisfy both shoulders and lower back alike. Although 24 ILD isn’t much, Dunlop runs firm and it may provide enough support in buoying up my hip.
The major problem with softness is that it can easily lead to exactly the same problem as something too firm. If you sink too much into it, then your ribs will go lower, but your shoulders will get pressed on all the same. But…it depends on how soft it is. It could very well work for you. As long as the weight is distributed over your torso early enough to keep the mattress from leveraging your shoulder too much.
But that’s IF this is what’s causing the shoulder pain. Id have to see your shoulder to know what forces are acting on it.
SOL just does all dunlop. Typically it works far better when you have dunlop/talalay combinations. Dunlop is typically only used most often as a support layer due to how firm it is.
Mike77, I tried laying down on the mattress without the topper. You were right in that my ribcage compressed the softer layer of the mattress (I do have relatively broad shoulders).
I no longer have the 3" soft topper unfortunately so I’m unable to test any alternative configurations like flipping the mattress and placing it on the top of the underside of the mattress (avoiding the soft top of the mattress).
I hear you on the concern of sinking in too far on a soft mattress (24 ILD with 20 ILD topper). Last night I tried sleeping on the Bear Mattress (it’s still under trial) with a lumbar pillow. This buoyed up my hip and provided the alignment I needed (although it wasn’t the most comfortable) while allowing me to get the comfort I needed from the Bear’s soft top layers.
I did read on the Underground: “This means that even a relatively soft latex (28 ILD and higher) can be used as a mattress core where its upper softness can help to form a pressure relieving cradle while its deeper firmness can still provide excellent support (the ability to prevent heavier parts of you from sinking down too far) and keep your spine aligned.” (Mattress support cores - Latex - The Mattress Underground).
This is somewhat reassuring to me if I were to go down the SOL soft mattress route. Honestly, money is a concern for complex latex configurations (DIY style or otherwise), so I keep this in mind. I did pose the question to SOL if, given my weight/height, I would sink it too far into the soft mattress and am awaiting their reply. It seemed with the previous configurations of [1) medium mattress with 3" soft SOL topper and 2) medium mattress with 2" soft SOL topper + 2" memory foam mattress] that I was simply too high to feel the support of the medium mattress. Perhaps with a soft SOL mattress I would have the needed pressure point relief to allow my broad shoulders to sink in without feeling too lofty undercutting the support I need (by closer proximity).
Anyway, your expert ear and opinion is much appreciated.
Patrick
If your ribcage is sinking in too far w/o the mattress topper on top, its very possible that a soft talalay wouldn’t work. But i could be wrong. That would be a good option to try for sure if you felt inclined, but , for myself (with broad shoulders and pretty much the same issue) i doubt it.
But if you did go the soft route, its also reassuing to know its dunlop, so it will get firmer much faster. So softer layers (especially at 6 inches of thickness) will firm up very quickly. Maybe the softer support layer will help to relieve pressure on your shoulders better. I had to zone my innerspring with softer coils (from a super cheap plush mattress) to get any relief. Now im playing w/ toppers to get it “zoned in”. Lots of trying returning.
And the height issue is certainly an issue with me. Too thick layers that are too soft is always a bad idea for most people. Unless you’re super light weight. For me anything too soft and thick and i dump right through. Fine for a nap, but terrible for long term 8 hour sleeping.
Nice to see you’re pointed in the right direction.
Hope it all works out.
At the recommendation of a SleepEZ rep, I have realized the 1" wool cover over the 8" mattress (with 2" topper on that) impeded my shoulder from sinking in which made it numb. Without any cover, sleeping directly on the mattress and topper, my shoulder pain went away. However, because of a history of lower back pain, the configuration was too soft and gave me back pain. The wool cover beneath the topper made the config firmer. I don’t know if a 10" wool cover would provide the taut, slightly firmer feel my back needs and provide shoulder relief. I’m considering a SleepEZ split layered mattress for different configurations but wonder if latex can really offer the slightly firmer lower back support I need coupled with slightly softer shoulder relief.