Hi, I have been through 3 years of mattress nightmares. I had a memory foam mattress that after 1 1/2 years sagged 1 1/2 inches. It was warranted but I was bound to buying a 2900.00 bed at Sleepy’s. I bought two tempurpedic mattresses, one being too soft and one being too firm.I ended up selling the firm tempurpedic on craigslist for 1,000.00 so I was out 1900.00. I tried a iSeries pillow top, it was ok but already after 30 days the pillow top was starting to sag and getting lumpy. Sleepys sold it to me for 1400.00. Now I have returned that bed and went to another retailer based on the fact that they had Latex. They had a Pure Latex Bliss- Worlds Bed Bed which was VERY comfortable in the store. They are no longer going to carry the line so they sold me the bed for $2100.00 including the 2 inch topper($599.00). It is VERY comfortable I have been sleeping on it for 7 nights but I am starting to experience low back pain which I know means it may be too soft. I took the topper off and still lower back pain.
Here is my question to you. I visited a local manufacturer KTT Enterprises, she told me I would be crazy not to buy the bed at that price. She said that if I found it was too soft they could sell me a firmer 2" topper to insert into the cover I already got with the PLB. OR they said they could actually cut out some of the top layer of the mattress and make it a tad firmer with a new layer. I don’t want to void the warranty of the mattress yet. So do you think going a with a firmer topper will alleviate the lower back pain? I love the feel of the mattress and I am falling asleep faster and sleeping through the night, just waking up with lower back pain again now. Other option is to return it and have KTT make me a mattress but the price will be higher and the warranty is only prorated for 10 years instead of PLB 20 year non prorated and the mattress will be 3 inches thinner.
While it certainly is a good price if you were buying a commodity where how it “feels” and “performs” didn’t matter … the most important part of the “value” of any mattress is how well you sleep on it because if you don’t sleep well on a mattress then the price you paid doesn’t really matter and wouldn’t be “worth it” no matter what you paid. There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here.
While it’s fairly simple to soften up a mattress that is too firm by adding a topper to provide additional comfort and pressure relief … it’s much more difficult to “firm up” a mattress that is too soft by adding a firmer topper because the softer layers under the topper would still be too thick/soft for you and can still allow your hips/pelvis to sink down too much even under a firmer topper. It may make a relatively small difference that in some cases may be “just enough” to help the back pain but in most cases it would only be a partial or temporary solution and the only way to know for certain would be based on your own personal experience. The most effective way to “fix” a mattress that is too soft would generally be by removing the comfort layers that are too thick/soft and replacing them with firmer layers.
The WBB is a very soft mattress that would be too soft for many people (even without a topper much less with a topper) but there are some suggestions in post #4 here that may also be helpful for a mattress that is too soft. I would also check to make sure that the foundation isn’t part of the problem (you can test this by putting the mattress on the floor to see if it makes any difference).
The length of a warranty has very little to do with the durability or useful life of a mattress or when you will need to replace it because a warranty only covers manufacturing defects in a mattress (which tend to show up early in the life of a mattress) and not the gradual loss of comfort and support which is the main reason that people will need to replace a mattress (see post #174 here). I certainly wouldn’t use the length of a warranty as a meaningful way to compare mattresses although a non prorated warranty for a few years can certainly protect against a mattress that contains defective materials which can happen on occasion.
The thickness of a mattress is just a side effect of its design and by itself isn’t particularly meaningful if the mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).
Thank you for your quick reply. I agree that it is of no value if it is not the right mattress for me. I feel like I can’t find a mattress that is right. Either they are too soft or too firm. Either my hips, shoulders and neck hurt from firmness or my lower back hurts from lack of support. Do you think that maybe I should just purchase a good firm mattress for support(coil spring) and then maybe add a top layer of latex for the comfort? I do love the feel of the latex, this has been by far the most comfortable mattress I have purchased I just now need the right support. I can not afford too many more mistakes, I have already lost 2K from the Tempurpedic mistakes. I could keep this mattress and they said they would perform “surgery” as you state in one or your links… and have them remove the comfort layer and replace it with a firmer… but I am not sure how much that will cost and it may be cheaper to just either have them make me a complete mattress or go the coil spring with topper route.
The first place I would start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and know how and why to avoid the worst ones.
The tutorial also includes some testing guidelines that can help you confirm which mattress is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and there is also more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (locally and online) that can help you assess and minimize the risks involved of making a choice that isn’t as suitable for you as you hoped for in each of them in post #2 here.
One of the challenges of choosing a firm mattress and then adding a topper when you can’t test the combination in person is that choosing a suitable topper that is a good match for both your mattress and for you (different mattresses will affect the choice of topper that works best) can be almost as challenging as choosing a mattress that doesn’t need a topper in the first place because the only way to know whether the combination will be a good “match” for you will be based on your own personal experience (see post #2 here).
They (or you) could certainly do surgery but once again the only way you will know for sure whether the new design will work for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own personal experience. If you can’t test a mattress in person to confirm that it’s a good match for you then the return or exchange options and the costs involved (if any) would become a much more important part of the “value” of your purchase.
The choice between different types of materials and mattresses would be a preference choice rather than a “better/worse” choice so some people may prefer a latex hybrid with an innerspring and a latex comfort layer and others may prefer an all latex mattress. Once again only your own personal testing and experience can tell you which type of mattress or materials you tend to prefer. There is more about some of the differences between an innerspring/latex hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #13 here and the posts it links to.
Your best chance of success is to follow the steps in the tutorial post one at a time.
Thank you Pheonix, I reviewed all the links you included and I had actually already read most of them. I have done a lot of research on the dos and don’ts and still DON:T get it right…lol Since I seem to be a person where the mattress feels great as far as support and comfort in the store then get it home sleep on it and still one of the PPPs isn’t right, do you think going the route of “making” a latex mattress would be best suitable? This way I can change the configuration if needed. I like a soft feel but I need the support for my back. I know you have recommended many retailers that will make one that you can change the layers around to find the right comfort. I believe that KTT enterprises will also do the same thing. So far for comfort the Latex has been my favorite. I no longer toss and turn trying to get comfortable or wake up and try to crawl out of the memory foam hole in pain. Its just now a matter of support and getting the layers rignt. I did see where people changed the soft/medium/firm to medium/soft/firm so that is why I asked if possibly a 2 inch medium topper would help with support but I also understand that on the WBB there is 4 inches of the soft comfort layer on the top of the mattress over 36 ILD 6"inch layer. I just don’t want to make another 2K mistake.
If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).
If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed are a good match for you in terms of PPP as a reference point (the same type and blend of latex in the same thickness and firmness levels and a very similar cover which can also make a significant difference to the feel and performance of a mattress) or use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).
So sorry didn’t mean DIY… meant purchasing a mattress from KTT Enterprises(local company) like you can from Flobeds, or Plushbeds and customize the layers of latex. Was looking for advice on the fact that it has been suggested that you can switch the the configuration from say soft/medium/firm to medium/soft/firm and why would that be any different to me just adding a medium topper to my current WBB mattress with the exception that the mattress right now is 2" of firm latex on the bottom topped with 6 inches of 36 ILD then 4 inches of 14-19 ILD. so adding say 2 inches of 25-29(medium) ILD on top would that possibly provide enough support on my current or should I just return it and customize my own from scratch.
The difference would be in the specifics of the mattress which would each have different designs, layer thicknesses, layer firmnesses, and a different cover. Your WBB has 4" of 15 ILD in the top layer and then another 2" of 24 ILD below that which are much thicker and softer comfort and transition layers than many people would do well with in terms of PPP. Every layer and component of a mattress will affects the feel and performance of every other layer and the mattress “as a whole”.
There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
I certainly think highly of KTT Enterprises but they don’t sell mattresses that have been tested and passed the fire regulations … they just sell mattress components and layers that can be used as a topper or to build a DIY mattress (although you may need to buy a cover separately depending on the type of cover you prefer).
A component mattress certainly has advantages because you can either rearrange or exchange the layers so that you can customize the support or pressure relief of a mattress after a purchase and you can also just replace a single layer down the road instead of replacing the whole mattress if one of the layers softens or breaks down before the others (usually the top layer) or if your needs and preferences change over time.
Like any mattress choice … which option is “best” for you depends entirely on which one would be the best match for you in terms of PPP and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
Hi Phoenix, well I tried the PLB, but I was wrong about the model it is the older version the Prestige St Honore Supplementre (spelling) I think the specs are
.75" 19 ILD Talalay
4" 14 ILD Talalay
6" 32 OR 36 Talalay
1" 14 ILD Talalay
the bed is super comfortable but I wake with either neck pain or lower back. They both indicate too soft right?
I went to Gold Bond yesterday and the have a mattress that I “think” is a better fit. It is called the Latex Gold.
it is made of Dunlop latex and the specs are
1" fiber cotton cover
4" 19 ILD Dunlop
6" 36 ILD Dunlop
It feels much firmer but still comfortable. They also have a new line of latex coming out that is 100% natural with no fiber on top
that one is
4" ILD 19
6" ILD 36
it feels almost the same. A little sifter because of the cover construction with no fiber.
Do you think that the 19 ILD will be firm enough but still allow the comfort? I am a side sleeper. They said that the 14 Talalay is only 2.5 lb and their 19 and 36 is over 5 lb.
The price for the Gold is right around d the same for the PLB at 2k. I don’t have the price for the new mattress yet but should later today. They said it will be higher.
The old PLB St Honore Pelushe Supplementaire used their graphite infused Talalay latex. Your specs are correct except as far as I know the 6" core was 32 ILD and the bottom layer was 2".
Lower back pain is most commonly from a mattress where the support core is too soft or the comfort layer is too thick/soft yes. Neck pain can come from many causes and is often a pillow issue (a softer bed may need a different pillow because it will change the distance between the head and neck and the bed).
You are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and your own experience will be the only way to know for certain whether either of these mattresses are a good match for you in terms of PPP so you would be in a better position to tell me whether they are “comfortable and supportive” for you than the other way around. They would both be firmer and less “risky” in terms of alignment than the St Honore Pelushe Supplementaire
Thank you !! one last question, what is the difference of the Graphite infused talalay latex? Is there any difference in firmness in comparison to reg. talalay in a 14 ILD? I did read you feel it is stronger in terms of durability.
I don’t have any personal experience with their graphite infused latex but you can see some of their comments about it when they launched it here.
I also don’t know about any specific comparative testing with graphite infused latex compared to their regular Talalay or their Talalay GL fast response and it’s too new to really make any meaningful comparisons in terms of durability based on actual real world experience. The main benefit of graphite “in theory” is that it would add some additional strength and durability to the cell struts of the latex and the graphite is also a thermal conductive material that could improve temperature regulation to some degree (you can see a patent application here for more details about graphite infused foams).
Having said that I would consider any type of latex to be a durable material relative to other types of foam so outside of using layers that are too soft (softer materials are less durable than firmer materials of the same type) … I wouldn’t consider durability to be an issue with any type of latex.
Hi Pheonix,
So I went with the Dunlop latex mattress by Gold Bond- it is 6 inches of 32ILD and 4 inches of 19 ILD. we found that the firmness in the Dunlop to be significantly firmer than the Talalay and we had a hard time getting comfortable… So I purchased a 3" Talalay topper from KTT in a 19 ILD. My lower back pain is gone and I am sleeping through the night. I am starting to notice now though that I am waking with middle back pain… after I am up and moving for about an hour it goes away. I am not sure if I have made the bed too soft or firm -if I need to change 1" of the top ILD to a 14??? I also invested in a latex pillow- low profile/soft. Not sure if I may need a low profile firm and if that would help. I read your articles about how the back can twist due to memory of alignment. I am a side/stomach sleeper that prefers a softer feel. Any suggestions? I am 5’2" and 140 lbs.
I’m not sure how long you slept on your mattress without the topper but it can take a few weeks for any new mattress to break in and for your body to get used to a new sleeping system that is different from what it was used to so it’s usually a good idea to wait for 30 days or so before making any changes to your mattress or adding a topper (see post #3 here).
If you are still experiencing any “symptoms” after that then there is more detailed information about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes or additions to your mattress that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing.
One of the most common causes of upper body symptoms is the thickness/softness of your pillow so you may need to experiment with your pillow thickness. This can be particularly challenging if you are a combination stomach/side sleeper because these sleeping positions are opposites relative to the type of sleeping surface that they do best with and a mattress that works well for one will often cause pain or discomfort for the other. It may be worthwhile considering reducing or eliminating the time you spend sleeping on your stomach because it is much harder on the body and can certainly cause a lot of issues over time both with lower back pain and with upper body and neck pain.
I would also guess that you may also have added too much thickness/softness to your mattress by adding 3" of soft latex to the 4" of soft latex that was already in the comfort layers (assuming that the 19 ILD was correct) … especially for your stomach sleeping … so it’s also very possible that you would do better with a thinner topper.