Latex mattress ILD configuration help

I have read extensively and learned so much on this invaluable site, thank you! Am in the final stages of shopping for a latex mattress and have several questions. Here’s my situation:

I’m 41, have bulging discs at L4/L5 (MRI’s) and pain in buttocks/leg. I’m 5’7", around 145 pounds and sleep primarily on my side with a king pillow between my legs for alligment. We have a 4 year old polyfoam core mattress that is medium-firm. It was ok for a few years and then I started waking up around 3-4AM with unilateral back pain (ribs to upper butt) that would dissapear as soon as I got up from the bed. I’ve been taking Advil almost every night since (yikes). I now believe my sciatic issues are coming from the bleepin’ bed - it can’t be helping in any event. My husband sleeps fine though…

Whenever I’ve slept well while staying away from home I’ve noticed the combination of standard tight-top coil mattress with some sort of removable topper. I’ve concluded that the combination of firm core + soft(er) topper works fo me. When I started mattress shopping I planned on getting a pocket coil and have since abandoned that in favor of a 100% latex for durability & health (material safety/off-gasing). I somehow thought this was going to be simple :huh:

I live in Montreal and have visited Literie Laurier, Futon d’Or, Dauphin, Matelas Personnel and Literie Provinciale. Problem is that they have 1 or 2 floor models available for testing and they all seem to be in the same ILD firm 36 and Futon d’Or has 35-42 very firm with toppers ranging from 19 (plush) to 28 (medium). To complicate matters, all the different retailers have different opinions on what is suitable for someone in my situation.

The most common combination seems to be 6" core + 2" topper/comfort layer. This is customizable, which is freaking me out :ohmy:

  1. Should I go for an extra firm 6" 44 ILD core? I’m worried the 6" 36 ILD with a softer topper will be too soft/similar to my current bed. I can make a bed softer but cannot make it firmer. The combination possibilities are driving me batty given the fact that I can’t physically try them. 6" 36 ILD + 2" 28 ILD? 6" 44 ILD + 2" 19ILD. Help!!!

  2. One manufacturer is suggesting a 6" firm core + 2" medium buffer core + 1" softer topper all enclosed/glued together. I read your post about Progressive/Differential construction. Should I instead try the 6" + 2" and if that doesn’t work get a 1" seperate/top of mattress topper down the line?

  3. Seeing as they can custom build a bed should I get a reversible combination? Wouldn’t the bottom layers get compressed/damaged by the firm middle core? Is this even worth-while in a latex bed? Only 1 manufacturer recommended this.

  4. Some glue the latex together saying otherwise it would shift and may degrade the latex while others don’t ?

  5. Some have zippered covers while others have conventional enclosed ?
    6)Aside from Dauphin who uses zoned Dunlop, they all have Latex Intl. as a supplier, all Talalay. Its unclear what percentage of natural latex though aside from Futon d’Or who say theirs is 92% pure (also Latex Intl.) Is this all the same/should I be concerned about this?

I feel bad about this rambling mess - I feel like my head is stuffed with latex :stuck_out_tongue: - Input is needed!

Hi COJ, I think it’d be hard for anyone to offer any real help in terms of what firmness will work for you. My ideal (or anyone else’s) for firmness may not match yours. I found a base core in the 36-40ild to be quite supportive and I’m 200lbs. Some prefer firmer though. One that I tested out that felt what I would consider med/firm was 6" 36ild, 2" 19 ild, 3" 28ild on top of that. It was a pure latex bliss model. Latex being a strange material, it compressed some when sitting on the edge of the bed but behaved in a totally different manner lying on it. With body weight spread out over the surface, latex tends to have a lot more support - at least in my opinion.

I’m not sure how much gluing the layers reduces wear on latex, a lot of people use mattresses with unglued layers without issue. The surface texture of raw latex is sort of ‘tacky’ and grips pretty well to one another so shifting of layers shouldn’t be a major concern. A nice feature of unglued layers in something like a generic soft/med/firm is that you can move them around to get a more custom fit to your needs. If soft/med/firm doesn’t work out, you can do soft/firm/med or med/soft/firm etc. The bottom layers shouldn’t get damaged by the middle layers I wouldn’t think - unless the bottom most layer is extremely soft (15-19ild) and at that I’d think they would compress more evenly with the layers above taking the pressure points of the body curvature - laying on your side, by the time the pressure of your hips pressed down into the layers I don’t think it would telegraph much into the very bottom layer.

I share your pain for sciatic issues as I’ve dealt with them on and off. Unfortunately without being a chiropractor it becomes difficult for anyone to suggest something which will improve your sleep and deal with medical issues. Theory could just as easily make your situation worse rather than better and no one wants to do that to you.

Hopefully Phoenix knows of some better options in Canada and maybe you can find a company similar to ones here in the U.S. like SleepEZ or Arizona Premium Mattress which have comfort exchanges so you can try a configuration and get some time to use it - with an option to move layers around to fine tune or make a swap on one of the layers if needed to get it closer to your ideal. Best of luck to you - but I seriously wouldn’t stress over glued vs unglued layers.

Hi COJ,

You are fortunate to live in Montreal because there are some good options available to you there. You’ve probably seen this but post #276 here may be helpful.

Most people have a range of mattresses that would be suitable for them in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) although how narrow their range may be will depend on to a large degree whether they are closer to the “princess and the pea” or the “I can sleep on anything” end of the sensitivity scale. It’s also the norm that different manufacturers (or people) will have many different opinions about what works best for different people and there is certainly no consensus in the industry (see post #8 here) because designing mattresses are as much an art as a science but your own careful testing and personal experience will always “trump” any theory. Most manufacturers will tend to attract people that tend to do best with the mattress designs that they offer and those that don’t do as well with their specific designs would tend to purchase their mattress elsewhere so the feedback from their customers will tend to “reinforce” what they believe is best because their customers that would choose a different mattress would likely look elsewhere.

I would go with the choice that your testing indicates is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Unfortunately nobody else can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in choosing a mattress to rely on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” to decide which mattress is the best "match’ for you (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). If you can’t test a specific mattress or combination of materials in person then the options you have after a purchase to either make changes to a mattress or exchange the mattress (or individual layers) of return the mattress itself would become a much more important part of the “value” of the purchase and your personal value equation so you can use your actual sleeping experience to decide whether you made a suitable choice. There is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here.

These are all choices that would really be based on your testing or personal experience. There really isn’t a way to use theory to predict which combination of materials you will do best with but if you are uncertain about which direction to go then it’s always easier to soften up a mattress that is too firm with a topper than to firm up a mattress that is too soft which would generally involve removing and replacing layers.

While latex is the most durable of all the foam materials … a two sided mattress will be more durable than a one sided version of the same mattress … even with latex. There is more about the pros and cons of a two sided mattress in post #3 here and the posts it links to. I would also keep in mind that after about 10 years or so of sleeping on a mattress that your own needs and preferences may change so a mattress that has many more years of life left in it may not be as suitable for you to sleep on and may need to be replaced or changed even if it is still in great condition.

I would agree with brass and you can see my comments about glued vs unglued layers and component mattresses vs “finished” mattresses with zip covers in post #2 here and the posts it links to.

Latex International makes two types of latex. One is blended Talalay which outside of any filler or other substances that are needed to foam and manufacture the latex uses about 30% natural rubber and 70% synthetic rubber. The other is 100% natural which only uses natural rubber. 100% natural doesn’t mean that there is only natural rubber in a material because there are other chemicals that are needed to make the latex (see post #18 here) … it only means that all the latex in the core is natural rubber and that it doesn’t have any synthetic rubber in the formula. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses that use different types and blends of latex but in the end the type of latex would be a preference and budget choice (latex cores that use a higher percentage of synthetic rubber are generally less costly than cores that use a higher percentage of natural rubber). There is also more about Dunlop vs Talalay latex in post #7 here but your own testing and experience will be the most reliable way to decide which one you prefer. With latex layers I would want to know the type of latex (Dunlop or Talalay) and the blend of natural vs synthetic rubber rather than the specific formula or chemicals they use to manufacturer it which is proprietary and won’t be available to you.

Phoenix

We ended up purchasing an 8" 100% Talalay (6" 40 ILD + 2" 21 ILD.
This site/forum was unvaluable in making that purchase - thank you!

My husband had not tried the bed because he’s a sleep-on-almost-anything-person. We slept on the mattress last night and our impressions are:

A) Feels great at first but is definitly firm. Doesn’t have that aaaah sensation of being in bed. I woke up frequently during the night with various aches. Some numbness in arm & around the shoulders. This morning we felt generally achy. I hope this is just the adjustement. Will wait at least a week before considering a topper.

B) We could feel eachothers movements - too much. This is hopefully due (as I read here) to the shebang below. We screwed-in two 1/4" plywood boads over our wood frame (the frame has 3 horizontal support beams Attached pic of the box sping flipped)

we added two boards vertically to create a more solid foundation) + our 4 year-old box spring which we had purchased at the same store with our previous bed. I was told at the store that the box spring is fine (its what they sell with the latex mattress should it be needed). We will try putting the bed directly on the floor either on the box spring or alone to see how that feels.

Am chasing the dragon on that cheapo innerspring + cheapo foam toppers experience I had staying in a rental property. Am worried that latex isn’t a good fit for me and am desperate for a good fit after years of taking Advil to get throughthe night on our med-firm foam bed.

Hi COJ,

Thanks for the update and feedback … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

While you certainly made a good quality choice … your mattress would also be in a firmer range with only 2" of softer latex over a much firmer 40 ILD support core so its certainly possible that it may be too firm for you … particularly if you sleep on your side.

There is more about the initial break in and adjustment period in and some other suggestions that may be helpful when you choose a mattress that feels too firm initially in post #2 here but the good news is that it’s always safer to choose a mattress that is too firm vs too soft because you can soften up a mattress that is too firm with a topper but it’s much more difficult to make a mattress that is already too soft any firmer because you would need to remove and replace the layers that were too soft.

I’m not sure if you have a box spring that has actual springs inside it that flex or a more rigid foundation which doesn’t flex (either wood or steel) but if you do have a box spring that has flex in it then putting your mattress on a firmer non flexing support surface can make a difference with motion transfer that involves larger movements that come from the “bounce” of the springs in the box spring. Your testing on the floor will certainly tell you how much of what you are feeling is coming from the box spring.

I’m looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share.

Phoenix

I woke up -way too early- with a lesser version of my aching back + general achiness in ribs/around shoulders. We tried putting the mattress on the floor and there was almost no partner disturbance. In hindsight we should have tried putting the box spring+mattress on the floor too but didn’t.

I actually have no idea if the springs on my box spring are flex but I’ve attached a picture of the inner construction - maybe you can tell me what I’ve got?

Hi COJ,

You can tell how much flex it has by pushing down firmly on the surface with your hands or knee. It looks like you have torsion springs inside which would give it some flex.

Trying it on the floor like you have though is the best way to isolate how much of the motion transfer you were feeling is coming from the box spring through a process of elimination.

Phoenix

Many thanks- I also love you idea I saw in another post of buying an inexpensive convoluted foam type topper to test adding surface softness before commiting to buying a more expensive latex one. The tweaking continues…

Hi COJ,

I’m looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share and of course any questions you may have along the way that I can help with :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I was so uncomfortable last night that I was dreaming about the mattress :frowning:
Got up an hour early, completely discouraged that I’m experiencing lower back pain that’s actually worse than on the old mattress. I’m baffled at this point because eventhough the 6" core is 40 ILD, I still feel like my hips are sinking/my waist is sunken into the mattress. ??
Today I’m going to buy a convoluted foam topper - hoping the lower back issue is too much firmness
Tonight we put the mattress directly on the floor to see if that makes any difference.

I read that post by needanewmattress:https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/too-many-bad-beds-from-waterbed-to-latex-to-memory-foam-to-airbed-bad-lower-back-pain It also mirrors my issue and it scared the heck out of me.

Hi COJ,

I think that the issue in the post you linked is a topper that is too thick/soft and in your case I would guess that you most likely have the opposite issue which is a comfort layer that is probably too thin over the firmer support core.

I’m looking forward to finding out how your topper changes things.

I would also try and make one change at a time so you can isolate the effect of each change you make.

Phoenix

Last night we tried boxspring+mattress on the floor. Pain was worse & all over. Ended-up using a folded plush blanket to tweak it. Must have fallen asleep past 1am. Helped about 20% with pessure relief. Woke up at 6am and couldn’t take another minute in the bed. Also still can feel husband’s movements (even small ones).

Husband also concurs that bed is not the greatest. He also feels oddly that his pelvis is dipping down while the bed is plenty firm, like the bed is unsupportive in every way. He said it feels like an old motel bed. We also notice that there’s quite a lot of give with direct compression (knee into mattress/sitting on mattress) The bed hates us :ohmy: !!

On the menu tonight: Box spring on floor + we’ve flipped the mattress over to the plain 40 ILD with the 2" 21 ILD on the bottom to try and ferret-out if its a comfort layer/firmness issue.

I’ve also bought a 1.5" convoluted foam topper at Target which has been compressed to the max for packaging and hasen’t fluffed-up at all in the last 24hrs…

On ILD - I readhttps://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/latex-conundrum where you say "Latex International for example has a 19 ILD and a 24 ILD with their blended Talalay and there is nothing in between and their 100% natural Talalay doesn’t have an ILD rating at all (it’s rated for softness and firmness from N1 - N5 and each rating has an ILD range of about 5 ILD or more). Your layer may be from Radium which is probably the closest equivalent they have to 19 ILD."

Our vendor says our mattress is 100% natual latex by Latex Intl. I’m confused about why they would then use the ILD and not the N rating. I even asked them wether it was the blended (usually 30-70) vs all natural as I was trying to compare with Futon d’Or which does use the N rating.

Hi COJ,

The suggestion was to try the mattress directly on the floor without the box spring underneath it at all to see whether the box spring itself was contributing to the issues you are having :slight_smile:

Many manufacturers provide an ILD which is in the middle of the ILD range for their 100% natural Talalay so that their customers have a better reference point for the firmness of the layer. If your layers are 100% natural then your comfort layer would be an N2 and your support layer would be an N5.

Phoenix

Well, a week and several mattress moves later I can report that its still not delivering. The best (or least worst) configuration is having the 6" 40 ILD facing up/2" 21 ILD on bottom + a 1.5" zoned convoluted foam topper** (they do not sell the one recommended in Canada, only a cheaper version). This combination provides the best lower back support = no aching back waking me up at 5-6am BUT the pressure points in the shoulders & hips is pretty bad.
**I bought two in the end and tried stacking them for testing & trying to relieve pressure points on 40 ILD side-up. The stacking suprisingly didn’t seem to add that much more plushness.

The worst configuration is with the 2" 21 ILD facing up, with or without convoluted topper(s). That combination = wake up too early with low back pain & pressure points.

Its as if the mattress is too hard AND too soft. Driving us up the wall. I’ve kept our vendor informed and we agreed the next step would be having the mattress picked up and changing the 2" 21 ILD for something harder (32? 36?) ?

Also, and I understand this is not typical at all, even with the mattress on the floor we can feel each others movements very well. Its like a ripple goes through the mattress. Could this be because the mattress if firm and it creates a drum effect? Even with the convoluted topper(s) we feel this though. ?

Last night we hauled these flexible slats in our very small car, at the recommendation of friends who have them and love them:
Deluxe Slats | EQ3 They are a knock-off of the Euro style and the only ones I could find in our area. Hopefully this is a small step towards great success :whistle:

Hi COJ,

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your efforts. It’s good to see that they are working with you to find a better configuration.

I’m not sure what their return or exchange policy is but given your comments in your first post it may also be worth considering a pocket coil/latex hybrid if they have one.

I’m not sure if this is with the box spring underneath it (you mentioned in post #6 earlier in the topic that with the mattress directly on the floor without your box spring there was almost no partner disturbance).

There is also more about motion isolation and latex in post #4 here.

Phoenix

Its been almost 2 months with the mattress and I can report that I have day dreamed about setting the thing on fire :evil: I named the mattress the “embrace of pain” …

The manufacturer exchanged our 2" of 21 ILD for 2" of 32 ILD a few weeks ago - the reasoning was that the lower ILD was allowing us to sink into the firm ILD too much and that having a firmer comfort layer would help. It did not. We are now back to trying different (and often esoteric) combinations of toppers. Last weekend we bought a 2" egg crate memory foam topper (I returned the 3" gel memory foam from Costco which was like wet sand).

I now have either pain in my mid back between shoulder blades that wraps around me to my chest OR if I go plusher I get hip/low back pain. Cannot seem to land in that sweet spot of having my shoulders sink in + lumbar support no matter how small the tweaks.

Last night we tried the mattress alone + egg crate memory foam pointy side facing mattress/smooth face up. Helped mid back but started aching in low back around 2AM.

Have also tried switching pillows.

Also the motion transfer is incredible. If my husband coughs I feel like someone is trying to shake me awake - something I read is practically unheard of with latex.

The only good night’s sleep I have gotten in the last 2 months was a few nights at my brother’s place. The mattress was a pocket coil + euro top from Matelas Dauphin, the Plenitude model. Husband wasen’t as impressed with it though.

I really tried my best with researching and chosing this bed but I have to say this has been nothing short of a catastro 2 monthsphy. We’ve agreed to give the current combination a few nights and if that fails we need to change the bed completely. Question: what is the industry “standard” for returning a mattress/what can we expect?

Hi COJ,

Thanks for the update.

I’m sorry to hear about your experiences and it certainly sounds like your mattress isn’t a very good “match” for you in terms of PPP.

It sounds like it may be a good idea to consider an exchange if that’s an option that they provide. It may be simpler than trying to fine tune the mattress that you have. There isn’t an industry standard return/exchange policy and each retailer or manufacturer sets their own policy (and builds it into the cost of their mattresses). I’m not sure where you purchased your mattress so I don’t know what options you have available to you.

Phoenix

To COJ:
I am near the Montreal area and currently shopping for a latex mattress, and was wondering where, exactly, you had ended up buying your mattress (your Nov. 18 post doesn’t specify).
Thanks.

We bought it (like our previous mattress) at Literie Provinciale. They were a good $1000 cheaper than other places. We’re happy with their willingness to work with us but are still unhappy with latex.
Wish I could have read more about the flip side of the coin such as the ripple/bouncy effect and that for some people the material itself does not support or feel right. I would suggest to really make sure you can test your ILD or be prepared for -in our case- months of discomfort.

Hi COJ,

I would completely agree that it’s always a good idea to make sure you can test a mattress in person to make sure that it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Each person may have their own specific preferences in terms of the material that they prefer and just like all materials … some people love latex and others don’t like it at all.

If you can’t test a mattress in person (or at least a closely comparable mattress) then it’s always a good idea to make sure that you have good options available after a purchase to exchange or return the mattress just in case your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.

Phoenix