Thanks VERY much for such an honest, in-depth, awesome forum and set of guides, etc. This is really a commendable resource. I wish more topics could be researched as thoroughly.
I’ve read through many postings, guides, etc. and have come to the determination that I’d like to take a bit of a chance and order a mattress online. I may or may not take a look at a mattress in person before doing so, so would like to ask for any helpful insight in case I don’t.
First, my stats:
Single
6’1", 245 pounds. Primarily a stomach sleeper, and also lay on my back in bed for reading, sitting up using my laptop, etc. Sometimes can sleep on my side.
Currently have an innerspring mattress. It is not sagging or anything, but I just want something better. I wake up with back pain sometimes, and my neck gets sore. I know this is likely due to being in the worst sleeping position, but I can’t help but think that a better mattress has the potential to help. Also, counter-intuitively perhaps, it seems like my mattress is too firm. After reading this website, however, I tend to think it is because I don’t have anything resembling a mattress topper on it for pressure point relief.
Have tried memory foam in the past and returned it within a month. I sunk in way too deep, and it made me way too hot.
Second, my research on this and other sites:
Latex seems (for me at least) the way to go. In specific, blended Talalay latex seems to be good as both a comfort and support layer, and in terms of durability.
That in mind, I wanted to find something that had a quality base that would last for years, and an interchangeable comfort layer that I could switch out and not have to pay for an entire new bed.
I initially considered making my own (DIY) out of various components.
But then I found something which I think ticks all my requirements, in one full system
That being the case, I’m very likely to go with the Dreamfoam “Ultimate Dreams Total Latex” mattress (Dream Foam - Dream Foam). I like it because I envision the blended talalay support will be durable, hold up to my weight, and as a comfort level will be responsive while at the same time relieving pressure and providing support
That said, my questions are:
In other beds (like Dreamfoam’s sister company’s “Brooklyn Bedding Best Mattress Ever”), there is a “comfort layer,” a “transition layer” and a “support layer.” Can I assume that the bed I’d like to try won’t need a dedicated transition layer, since it is all latex?
The default ILD of the support foam is 36. Is this enough for my weight?
My major concern with buying online is that the comfort layer I choose won’t be the right match and/or will “soften” in like a year or so. That being the case, I could not find on your mattress forum an indication of what the best way to approach it would be. Are there guidelines in terms of what firmness would probably be to my liking, given my states? Is the better course of action to get something a bit firmer than needed upfront, and factor in the eventual softening?
I KNOW that this is a lengthy posting. I made it this way because I’ve found other lengthy postings from both you and other contributors to be really helpful in understanding. Hopefully this serves similarly for those researching along the same lines.
You’re very welcome – thank you for the compliment!
Your best option is always to test out any product in person before making a purchase, if you’re able or if the product is available somewhere for you to try. When you can’t test a mattress in person, then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using. Their detailed knowledge of their mattresses and how they fit with different body types and sleeping positions along with your feedback from local testing, a customer base of many people that they can use as reference points, and any exchange, return, or any options they have available to customize a mattress after a purchase can help lower the risk of an online purchase. These online retailers or manufacturers can also be a good “value reference” for local purchases to make sure that if you are paying a “premium” for a local purchase (in exchange for the kind of “in person” guidance, service, and value that comes with dealing with a local retailer that can help you make more “accurate” choices that you have tested in person) is not too high.
Being a stomach sleep and of a higher BMI, you’ll want to make sure and assess any item for appropriately strong/firm support layers, as sleep ergonomic research will generally suggest that those sleeping in the prone (stomach) position to avoid any product that is too soft on the surface or lacks adequate “deep down” support.
You are correct that sleeping prone places the most stress on your alignment, and also is placing your cervical/upper thoracic region in rotation and lateral flexion. Having a an appropriately thin pillow (or none at all) will be helpful in keeping neck issues at bay.
Your personal impressions about your current sleep set ae usually quite accurate, and a little extra surface comfort certainly can be assistive.
Memory foam, regardless of additives, will tend to be the least breathable foam product and also tends to “feel” the warmest. It also is not a very supportive material, so you will sink into it.
Latex will certainly be a durable comfort and support material.
Component mattresses are attractive to many people for these exact reasons.
The Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams Total Latex mattress uses a 6" Talalay core of either a 32 ILD or a 36 ILD. There is also a 3" Talalay latex piece on top. Dreamfoam phones you to complete your purchase to assist with selecting the proper core and upper latex layer to suit your somatotype and sleeping preference. These materials certainly are of high quality and durable, and there would be no “weak link” for your BMI. As you may be aware, Dreamfoam (Ultimate Dreams Total Latex) is a member of this site which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency. I certainly wouldn’t hesitate to purchase a mattress from them.
The terms for layers such as “comfort”, “transition” and “support” are more useful for labelling layers so that they can easily be visualized and referenced in their positioning within a mattress. A firmer 6" solid core latex mattress would “act” or “perform” the task of all three of these layers, and in the configuration you’re considering (6" core and 3" top layer), the core would take on the task of the “support” and “transition” layers. The foam core will feel different in its initial compression, and then will start to feel a bit firmer as it is compressed further, so in effect it offers both a “transition” and a “support” feature. There is no set rule that a mattress has to have all three of these labeled layers – it’s a just a point of reference. For example, if the 6" core of the Ultimate Dreams was divided into two separate 3" pieces (even if both pieces were the same), the lowest piece would be termed the “support” piece and the piece above that would be labeled the “transition” piece, even though for all practical purposes these two pieces will perform and act almost identically to a solid 6" piece of the same foam.
This is considered a “firm” latex core and is used by many manufacturers for people of your BMI and even higher. I personally would have no concerns about the applicability of this particular core for your uses.
I focus here on assisting people with the “how” to choose, and I would use the advice of the people at Dreamfoam with guidance as to the “what” to choose. You can see in my earlier comments that they will be best able to provide accurate advice about their products and what they would recommend would work best for you. One of the nice things is that you’re considering a mattress that does have a 90-night trial and has an exchangeable upper comfort layer.
As for what comfort to shoot for (now or later), I advise that you consider the comfort that is most appropriate for your current situation, and not focus too much on what the mattress “might” feel like in the future, or what you think you might personally might prefer as time goes on. The materials you are considering will gradually increase in softness, but their rate of change will be more gradual and the change in compression modulus will be smaller than other types of foam. So it will have a more consistent feel for the life of the product.
The one thing I don’t like about the Dreamfoam mattress is the “eurotop.” I just worry that the rest of the mattress would stay intact far longer, and then all of a sudden I’d need to replace the mattress because of something that I don’t think of as an integral piece of the overall construction.
However, I cannot seem to find a standalone mattress “encasement” or “cover” in which to fit both of those, while also being fireproof. Ideally I think it sounds like something like wool would be good, but I don’t see a good standalone version. Any insight/dealers to consider?
You’re welcome. I’m glad the information was valuable to you.
A Eurotop is merely a construction process and a descriptor for a squared-off top layer of a mattress with the foam carried to the edge, and the side border panel is extended in height with the joining of a thinner upper border panel to the taller lower border panel with a tape edge. Often Eurotop, Euro Pillowtop, and Pillowtop are used interchangeably (and not always correctly). Very technically, the Ultimate Dreams is closer to a Euro Pillowtop, as there is a separator layer of fabric on top of the core piece of latex, and this piece is tied into where the side border panels are joined with the tape edge (welting). When the top piece of foam is placed into the upper Eurotop panel and then the top quilt is zippered up, this is in effect very similar in construction to a Euro Pillowtop mattress with an innerspring unit or a polyfoam core (of course a traditional mattress wouldn’t use a zipper). Latex has a high coefficient of friction and the top layer of latex won’t slide around. I personally wouldn’t have concerns with the structural integrity of a product made in this manner.
If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components that are purchased from one or several different sources then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).
There is a list of some mattress cover suppliers toward the end of post #4 here.
I wound up ordering a king of the Dreamfoam Ultimate Total Latex ( Dream Foam - Dream Foam ), as a few points assuaged my concerns:
your message was of course helpful
Chuck at Dreamfoam indicated that if ordering the king size, they can do a split in the comfort layer, so it would essentially be two twin XL blended talalay layers. I like that level of flexibility.
He also indicated that I could (should the case ever arise, which I highly doubt), potentially remove the core and transport it to another cover system, thereby increasing flexibility (hopefully far down the line)
I wound up trying a 28ild and 32ild at a local shop (Jordan’s Furniture) and liked both. They both had a somewhat pronounced top to them, so I figure that is fine.
I should note that under consideration were two alternatives, if others were interested:
Arizona Premium Mattress has a number of different mix and match options, using blended talalay, dunlop, and natural talalay. I would have gone for one of these, but the turnaround time of a few weeks was not good for me, and if I wanted to do certain individual components, those looked like they lacked a return policy (full mattresses had a return policy, however). Also, when you factor in that shipping is an additional cost, vs Dreamfoam in which shipping is included, they came out to roughly the same cost for what my layperson research indicates is a substantially similar end product. But, this might be the way to go for someone else using slightly different personal preference criteria, so I list it here as well: https://www.mattresses.net/
To followup one last time if others are looking, the Dreamfoam scale around my weight and sleeping style is the following, according to conversation with Chuck:
Firmest 1-
2-
3- 36ild
4- 32ild (slightly tighter top layer of polyfoam, but not a big difference between this and level 5)
5- 32ild (I went with this one)
6- 28ild
7-
8-
9-
Softest 10-
So, to circle back, I got my mattress (Ultimate Dreams Total Latex) last evening. It was fun unfurling it, and putting everything together.
As far as sleeping, it was unfortunately a mixed bag:
It was very comfortable (good news)
It unfortunately was moderate in terms of heat retention. For others reading the thread, I will re-iterate that this may well be due to my weight (245) and also that I’m just naturally a hot sleeper. This to me is likely a deal-breaker. It was not as bad as the memory foam mattress I had previously (one without the new-fangled “gels”), but it was noticeable. Unfortunately, it was the most noticeable in between my body and the mattress itself. As I am a stomach sleeper, this proved uncomfortable and therefore I will likely return the bed. A real bummer!
Questions if I could:
The Ultimate Dreams mattress is layered blended Talalay. Would natural Talalay be better in terms of heat retention? I didn’t really research natural Talalay, as I thought that I read on here that blended was better in terms of durability, however…any info appreciated. Also, are there any such examples in the same price range as the bed I chose ($1600 or so)?
Other than that, if heat retention is one of my main considerations and I’ve ruled out memory foam, and am verging on doing the same with latex, is an inner spring mattress my only real choice? I really thought I could get away from innersprings, as I was really looking to build a smart layered system as is often described on this and other sites. Maybe what’s best for me is a good but firm innerspring, topped by a topper that has the same or similar comfort properties as blended latex, but not the heat retention. Since I really wasn’t going in that direction, and hoped to be satisfied with what I purchased online because the online choices are WAY more transparent than what is usual in the innerspring category in the offline world, where do I even start in those terms?!
I’m sorry your new mattress is feeling a bit warm to you. But there are a few things you can take a look at first to see if they make a difference.
In very general terms … the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin and softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more “insulating” and for some people can sleep warmer than firmer versions of the same material. There is a really good post with more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here. I would pay special attention to the mattress pad/protector and fitted sheet that you are using to see if this is negatively affecting your sleeping temperature. It’s amazing how much changing your mattress can make a difference.
Talalay latex (blended or otherwise) is generally the most breathable of foams, followed by Dunlop latex, polyfoam, and then memory foam. The deeper you sink into a mattress, the warmer you may feel, as all foam is an insulator to an extent, so you may feel less warm on a mattress that doesn’t allow you to sink in quite as much, or if you desire latex as your upper comfort surface and you decide to return this mattress after analyzing your mattress pad and sheets, you may wish to investigate a mattress that uses a spring unit with latex on top to offer a bit more air circulation. But the blend wouldn’t have much of an impact upon temperature.
If you end up unfortunately returning your mattress, then there is a good starting point for some research on latex mattresses using innersprings for the support layer in post #2 here.
I’m looking forward to learning if you experience any better results in sleeping temperature after evaluating your top of mattress products.
I’d like to share my experience, with the GIANT caveat that what worked for me may or may not work for you.
About a year and a half ago, I purchased a ten inch, blended Talalay latex mattress from one of the dealer-members here that came with a blended bamboo and polyester mattress encasement (I do not know the percentage of each fiber used). To my dismay (and my wife agreed) I felt the mattress slept incredibly hot, so much so that I thought I’d have to sell it and move on to something else. I am not a “hot” sleeper and had bought the latex mattress to replace an old eight-inch Tempurpedic that came with some kind of knit terry cloth cover.
We were both amazed that our new latex mattress felt like it retained substantially more heat than the old Tempurpedic, knowing that memory foam is usually regarded as more heat retentive than latex.
Long story short, we decided that before giving up on the new latex mattress and replacing it with something else, to go ahead and try a wool mattress pad. I ordered a St. Dormeir, which as wool mattress protectors go, is fairly thin.
It made all the difference in the world. Using the same sheeting and duvet, neither one of us felt too hot anymore.
Of course, the experiment carried a price, which I recall was in the neighborhood of two hundred dollars for the wool mattress pad. On the other hand, the latex mattress we were dissatisfied with due to heat retention cost many times more than the St. Dormeir mattress pad.
Should you go this route, your mileage may vary. If the only thing that bothers you about your mattress is that you sleep hot, a new mattress protector pad may be a solution. If you have other substantial concerns about your new latex mattress, it may be better to start afresh with something totally new.
Thank you so much for taking the time to detail your temperature regulation issues and the solution that worked for you. :cheer: Many people have an affinity for wool in the mattress cover and mattress protector and enjoy the humidity and temperature regulation qualities of this natural product.
I really appreciate you taking the time to visit again and give us an update on your progress, and your advice/experience is certainly applicable to many people who visit the site.
