Latex nightmare - Just not right for me?

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Ok, so I have been battling to get my sleep ez layers right for the last several months with little luck. Yes, I have been in touch with sleep ez and we have been working through different layering schemes, but just not working out for me. The most recent layering I tried has provided the most relief for my pressure points, but still killing my lower back. Itā€™s like I cannot find the lumbar support and pressure point relief with any layering scheme. Very frustrated as no easy task going through all the layer trial and errors and constantly waking up with pain and causing much worse low back pain than I typically experience on a daily basis. day after day, starting to tweak out yaā€™ll!!

I have been mixing up using just the 3 base layers, and when thatā€™s not quite right still, I go and add the topper, but still have issues. I def think its somewhat of a topper issues, but finding the topper provides pressure point relief, but not lumbar support.

Current layers and most recent scheme that has been ok, but still lacking that lower lumbar support, but def not as sinky so maybe just a firmer topper?
medium talalay topper (2inches) followed by soft T, firm D, medium T

All the other combinations with effects Iā€™ve tried

  1. medium T topper, medium D, medium D, firm D - gave my partnerā€™s side a try and provided the lumbar support, but got pressure point pain
  2. F dunlop, M talalay, S talalay and no mattress topper - was definitely better and I didnā€™t wake up with really bad pain, but could tell I was still lacking a bit more support and plush.
  3. F dunlop, M dunlop, S talalay and no topper - Was only slightly better, but definitely was hard on my pressure points and woke up with more pain than #2. This is what I originally started with way back and had to evolve it because yea, this was way too hard back at the beginning.
  4. F dunlop, M dunlop, M talalay, topper - Was ok first few hours, seemed to provide the plush and firmness, but eventually caused too much pain in middle of night.
  5. F dunlop, M dunlop, S talalay, topper- been trying this a few nights. I could tell offered more support than original, but after a few days, waking up with same excruciating hip and low back pain and issues I had at the start which makes me believe the topper
2

Hi birdgirl2022.

It has been a while since your last post ā€¦ so ā€¦Welcome back to our Mattress Forum! :slightly_smiling_face:

Ok, so I have been battling to get my sleep ez layers right for the last several months with little luck. Yes, I have been in touch with sleep ez and we have been working through different layering schemes, but just not working out for me. The most recent layering I tried has provided the most relief for my pressure points, but still killing my lower back. Itā€™s like I cannot find the lumbar support and pressure point relief with any layering scheme. Very frustrated as no easy task going through all the layer trial and errors and constantly waking up with pain and causing much worse low back pain than I typically experience on a daily basis

Iā€™m sorry to hear that you are still encountering problems finding the right combination of layers for the best support/comfort balance for your needs. I scanned your posts from a year ago and it looks like since then you had much trial and error so as a refresher, you may want to review a few articles to see if anything leaps out for you - Latex Comfort Layers article may be helpful, and Sleeping style Preferences and Statistics article may provide more insight. As usual keep in mind that any mattress selection should be based on sleepersā€™ stats (height, BMI, sleeping position(s), and any health conditions) and your PPP (posture and alignment, pressure relief, and Personal preferences).

I understand your frustration but is good to see that you are persevering in finding a solution. Since you have been working with SleepEZ who are one of our founding Trusted Members as well as a long-time Sleep Expert on our Mattress Forum, itā€™s good to know that they are very skilled at mattress matching, or much needed fine-tuning. Even so, this is not a perfect science as there are infinite permutations of interrelated variables at work and most importantly they are not you to feel what you feel on any particular mattress. Even so, they make their recommendations based on the averages of consumers that are similar to you so thereā€™s a good chance that they are not far away from the center target.

Generally, a mattress cannot solve or fix preexisting health conditions and pains if they are not mattress related. It looks like with your degenerative disc condition this may be partly your issue, in which case, the best a mattress can do is to provide a sleeping environment that is appropriate for a neutral spinal alignment but may lack some pressure point relief for certain sleeping positions. If anything, Iā€™d focus first on getting the correct support for your needs and then twitch things from there.
For example, if you are waking up with lower back pains that go away in the morning you know that your alignment is off.

From your experiments, I can see why you might have issues with getting proper support. In your ā€œmost recent, current OK schemeā€ you have 5" of soft Talalay for comfort which can be too much thickness for neutral spinal alignment especially when you switch to your back sleeping position (around 25% of the night)

Sleep EZ originally recommended a 10" organic latex mattress with soft Talalay over medium Dunlop over firm Dunlopfor your side and medium Talalay over medium Dunlop over firm Dunlop for your partnerā€™s side; I did not see this configuration in your list - have you tried this with or without the topper? (unless you listed firmness from bottom to top ā€¦ which for the first 2 versions you listed is listed from top to bottom)

Either way, to confirm the direction you need to go into Iā€™d try the following

  • Open the cover take out the 3" soft Talalay and place the 2" soft Talalay within the cover on top of the 3" M Dunlop and 3" F Dunlop. This would give you only an 8-9 inch thickness but may give you some valuable insights.
  • Thicker mattresses will act softer. Iā€™d next try 3" Soft Talalay, on top of 3" Medium Dunlop, 3" Medium Talalay, and 3" Firm Dunlop. (12" total thickness) Dunlop is more supportive than Talalay so that may be all you need in terms of support.
  • For more support move the 3" Medium Dunlop to the very bottom and bring the 3" Firm Dunlop one layer up to increase support. (12" thickness)

Iā€™d assess the results in terms of the type of pains, alignment, pain intensity, when do you experience them in the course of the night (immediate, middle, or when you wake up) and the duration you managed to sleep without feeling pains. These are all good indicators and they will tell you if your body just needs to take some time before adjusting to the mattress or if it is a clear ā€œNo-No!ā€

There are more combinations to try but Iā€™d start with those combinations to ensure support and Iā€™d take detailed notes so that you can compare and reassess.

I have been mixing up using just the 3 base layers, and when thatā€™s not quite right still, I go and add the topper, but still have issues. I def think its somewhat of a topper issues, but finding the topper provides pressure point relief, but not lumbar support. Current layers and most recent scheme that has been ok, but still lacking that lower lumbar support, but def not as sinky so maybe just a firmer topper? medium talalay topper (2inches) followed by soft T, firm D, medium T

A few things come to mind here. DIY is notorious for tweaking and moving layers ā€¦ an inch or more added/subtracted from the comfort layer, or support layer can be that final adjustment that pulls it all together. The top or comfort layer should be providing the pressure point relief while the support layer below would provide most of the lumbar supportā€¦your situation is complicated due to your health condition; You do have a low BMI so without your disc issue, you would not have so much trouble in finding something both comfortable and supportive. Another consideration is that an all-latex bed typically takes anywhere from a number of days to several weeks (depending on the age) to adequately get your body to adjust itself to a new sleeping environment - not sure how much time you have given any of these configurations.

Lastly ā€¦ you say that you think the issue may be the topper, which gives you pressure point relief but not lumbar supportā€¦That is true ā€¦ except that a toper is not meant to give lumbar support but its primary function is to form a cradle around your body and act as a cushion between your most pointy body parts and the firmer supportive layers below. There is no soft toper that gives lumbar support unless you are willing to trade between discomfort due to pressure points and some secondary support. you can read a bit more on this in The basic functions of a mattress - Overview It seems you have been just above the target on some builds but with the degenerative disc condition, have you asked your healthcare provider to weigh in on any recommendations on having less pain during sleep?

As we have so many DIY enthusiasts on the forum, maybe others can chime in with comments on your various builds and other solutions.
Phoenix

3

birdgirl2022-Have you considered zoning the part where you want lumbar support-meaning under the foam topper? Maybe the configuration you have currently isnā€™t for you if you cannot do that, but if you are DIYing anyway-it is something to consider & easy enough to do, but you may need to cut foam, so full DIY, unless one of the coampanies offers a zoned support layer in foam.
My thought is that maybe you just need a strip of firmer foam from side to side across the lumbar region of your mattress build in that area of the mattress only. Thereā€™s no reason you canā€™t zone it if you are full diying.
You could try an experiment with a 18" -24" piece of corrugated cardboard slid under the uppermost support layer into the lumbar region only, from side to side, & see if firming up slightly in that region specifically helps your cause. If it does, you can figure out how & where you wish to zone it, if it doesnā€™t you havenā€™t cut any of their materials so you can still return.

4

Hey, I havenā€™t tried any of the configurations you suggested yet because I have been stewing on all this plus so much work to change things up. So Iā€™m concerned that your first suggestion of removing the 3 and replacing with just the 2 will be rough. Hereā€™s why and because you askedā€¦

Yes, I originally had tried their recommendation of soft T, medium D, firm D for almost a month and was having the typical pain associated with a ā€œfirmā€ mattress and not having cradling effect, causing major pressure point pain. That is when we ordered the topper and it helped, but told sleep EZ this after a few nights, ā€œI could tell offered more support than original, but after a few days, waking up with same excruciating hip and low back pain and issues I had at the start which makes me believe the topper.ā€

I guess between the effects from these 2 combinations, wouldnā€™t the first recommendation most likely be too firm? I guess that is your point of reducing the amount of thickness? Seems counter intuitive to me especially since the most similar configurations to that gave me trouble.

So after adding the topper to original sleep ez layer configuration it worked out for a bit, but then started having pain issues so sleep ez had me switch the medium D for a medium T so then had topper, soft T, medium T, and then firm D. This is when it got weirdā€¦I was on this for about a month as well and was all fine until 1 day it just wasnā€™t and thatā€™s when I had both low back and pressure point pain that wasnā€™t subsiding. Wasnā€™t at all like my normal degenerative disc pain symptoms that let up throughout day, for some reason I all the sudden had 24 hour back tightness for like 2 weeks and also butt and hip tightness pain. That was a red flag and so then it turned into reconfiguring in response to that.

Iā€™m confused how your second suggestion would work because then my partner would only have 2 layers. Or it does work, just a matter of my partner have to deal with only 2 layers?? Or fold up topper to go on top of his for the meantime?

5

Hey, no I havenā€™t and no idea how to even go about doing thatā€¦Iā€™ve got 3 layers of 3" latex each plus the topper. How do I insert the cut pieces and all that and then would each side of bed be uneven then?

6

Oh, and I forgot to add we stopped using the cover as we kept going back and forth on that as we tested each configuration and I think ultimately having direct contact with the latex is proving better for me. Not sure if this changes thingsā€¦

7

Hi birdgirl2022,

Just chiming in hereā€¦Catia has some good suggestions, and has a lot of ā€˜hands onā€™ DIY experience.
Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts or quick answers on a DIY project. As Phoenix said, we can only
base our answers on what works for others - but there are so many diffeent aspects on your project we cant give you a ā€˜concreteā€™ answer. Hopefully all these tips and suggestions will help you to zero in on the final goal.

~ Basilio

8

Hi Birdgirl. Sorry to hear about your struggles with latex. Iā€™ve had the same experience with latex, and with trying to balance pressure points and lumbar support. In my experience itā€™s hard to find one topper/mattress layer that addresses both problems. I tried sleeping on a 2" soft latex topper which took care of pressure points but caused bad lower back pain. I am now sleeping on a 2" topper of HD36-HQ Foam from Foam by Mail (ILD 35, Density 2.8 lb) on top of a Posturepedic mattress. Itā€™s firmer than the latex but still gives good pressure relief. This addressed both pressure and back support for some years, but this past year I started to have lower back pain. On advice of physical therapist I placed a thick bath towel folded in thirds under the foam topper, positioned just above my waist and extending up to just below arm pit when Iā€™m on my side. It provides extra support on the side so that my lower back doesnā€™t sag as much. You could also try a thin pillow or a thin piece of foam instead of a towel (not more than 1 inch thick probably). Have your partner look at your back to make sure your spine is aligned. This isnā€™t perfect (what is?), but most days I wake without pressure or lower back pain. Good luck.

1 Like
9

Hello, thanks for the advice. Iā€™m giving the cardboard, towel, etc a try and a bit of an adjustment on my pressure points but def better alignment.

10

I suggested cardboard (corrugated is probably better for this experiment & is less than 1/4" thick)) since it is easy & cheap/free to source & somewhat easy to slip between the layers of latex. I would cut it to the size of your 1/2 of the bed (30" wide if a queen for example)-since this is an experiment for your issues.
I would choose the other dimension based upon where you want the additional support to hit without affecting the other sections which you already find are acceptable. For example for 1 side of a queen if you wanted lumbar support-cut a piece of cardboard 30" by 10-12"-slip it under the uppermost layer of latex in the area you are trying to get more support. This is where you will notice the MOST difference, If this is close, but too much firmness, take it out & then put it under the next lower layer of latex-my suggestion was for you just to do your 1/2 since your partner isnā€™t having an issue. A 1/4" thick piece of cardboard shouldnā€™t have any major effect on your partners side-it is thin-if they roll to your side they may notice, but this isnā€™t a large bump like a 1" thick piece -youā€™re just trying to zone the problem areas you have-you want something firm & thin which slips easily as possible & is only the size of the area(s) you want to zone firmer is what I am trying to get across here. If you need something with even less resistance to slide in under the latex, you could try covering the cardboard with a silky type pillowcase. I know moving these components are heavy & a pain in the butt & back-so am trying to offer a lightweight more simple experiment that is cheap/free to try. Donā€™t give up yet-youā€™re gonna hafta figure out a solution regardless. In my opinion, case off is probably the better/easier way, while you continue to experiment with adjustments but hope you are at least wrapping the latex in a sheet & protecting it.
LOL I just had a battle with a case myself-removed it from the bed completely-amazing how a case can make or break a bed.