Latex or latex topper with foam core?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I’m pretty much set on ordering from brooklyn bedding after some extensive research. However, I’m a bit stuck on what to order… We are interested in either purchasing the 12" bamboo bed from BB (8" HD Omalon foam core, 3" talalay topper, 1" wool topper and a cover) for $1099 or three 3" latex toppers to make a 9" bed for $887 (and have a custom cover made to fit the bed so the pieces don’t move around).

My wife likes it as soft as possible and I’m rather not picky (my current bed is a california king 5" firm and 2" soft foam mattress from a local maker and I like it, although when doing other activities, e.g., reading, sitting, etc…, in the bed, I do sink through the 7" of foam). We just moved and need to get a smaller mattress, so we settled on a queen size. As I said, I’m okay with a soft mattress though the reps at BB recommended–at the very least–a 19 ILD topper, preferably 24 ILD.

Before calling BB, I was considering a 3" 19 ILD topper, 3" 24 ILD mid-layer and 3" 28 ILD base layer. One rep at BB thought the top layer especially would be too soft for me, that I’d sink through into the mid layer. Is that generally a problem? I don’t mind the sinking feeling, and if it’ll make my wife happy… do you think this could work, or do I really need something firmer?

Finally, what benefits are there over a full latex bed versus a latex topper on a foam core bed?

NB: I’m 6’3 and 300 pounds and my wife is 5’6 150 pounds.

Thank you!

2

Hi merup,

I would agree with BB and I would also add that I think all three layers are much softer than I would consider using at your weight. This would be a very risky construction for you both in terms of durability and in terms of alignment and support. It seems way too soft to me for your higher weight.

You can read a little more of my thoughts in post #15 here about trying to design and build a mattress completely on your own without the guidance of an “expert” (or in many cases the exchange or refund options they make available) using components your purchase individually. In most cases I wouldn’t recommend it unless you are prepared for the time and effort and the difficulties and frustrations that can be involved in research, testing layering combinations at local stores, the possible cost of mistakes (in money and possibly sleep quality), and a very steep learning curve.

You can read more about the differences between a latex hybrid and an all latex mattress in post #2 here. In your case, because of your heavier weight you will likely “go through” the top layer and well into the middle transition layer which means that the quality/durability of this layer would also be very important to you.

You can read more about the many factors involved in the durability of a mattress in post #4 here and the posts it links to.

Post #2 here and post #5 here may also help you with the parts of a mattress purchase that are most important.

The first part of post #2 here has some information on accommodating significant weight differences or different needs and preferences of a couple that will be sharing a mattress.

The first place I would start though is post #1 here which has or links to the basic information, steps, and guidelines that are the most important parts of making the best choices.

Phoenix

3

merup, I am a relative noobie to this, but have spent mucho time reading here. I would think that at your height and weight you would need a significantly firmer mattress than your wife. There are outfits, such as Sleepez, that allow you to get a multiy layer mattress with different firmness on the two sides. You might want consider that possibility. Also, they would allow you to replace any layers that wear out without having to replace the whole mattress. https://www.sleepez.com/

Also, have you figured out how much a custom cover would cost? I would think that it would be expensive unless you know someone who makes them.

Best to you, Lew

4

Thanks for your reply. So what is considered a medium foam? I thought 24 is on the medium side… Is 3" of soft enough for my wife to sink into and enjoy the plush layer, while I can vertically zone and end up sinking through the top layer to the middle layer and using the bottom layer as my support layer (if I understood your post correctly)…

I just don’t see the reason to spend an extra $1800 on their 10" latex mattress when I can get 3 latex 3" cores for $800 less, so I thought I’d make my own. Even if the middle core was the same as the bottom core (which is how much manufacturers do it anyway…)

I can get a custom cover made from a local shop in Boston for $80. The reason I am partial to BB is their excellent customer service and they offer 6 months interest free financing through PayPal…

[quote=“Phoenix”]
Hi merup,

I would agree with BB and I would also add that I think all three layers are much softer than I would consider using at your weight. This would be a very risky construction for you both in terms of durability and in terms of alignment and support. It seems way too soft to me for your higher weight.

You can read a little more of my thoughts in post #15 here about trying to design and build a mattress completely on your own without the guidance of an “expert” (or in many cases the exchange or refund options they make available) using components your purchase individually. In most cases I wouldn’t recommend it unless you are prepared for the time and effort and the difficulties and frustrations that can be involved in research, testing layering combinations at local stores, the possible cost of mistakes (in money and possibly sleep quality), and a very steep learning curve.

5

Hi merup,

You can see what Latex International considers “soft” (24 ILD) here and the first overview here suggested in the “read first” post I linked has some general firmness guidelines as well. medium would usually be considered to be in the range of 28 - 32 but don’t forget that softness is very subjective and will also vary by material and the type of latex and other factors as well so what is soft for you at higher weights may be firm to someone who is lighter. Some people on the forum have even said that they think that 36 ILD latex is too soft for them. Only you can decide what is really soft or firm based on your own perceptions and on your own local testing of different layer combinations so you have a reference point that fits your individual experience.

Phoenix

6

I see, thanks. Do you think 3" of 19 or 24 is enough softness for a 150lb person? Or will they sink through it and hit the firm layer of the 24 or 28 ILD mid-layer that I want to have?

7

Hi merup,

There is no way to know this with any certainty without a reference point of latex layers you have personally tested and your specific feedback on how they felt and performed for you (or your wife). The cover and/or quilting can also have a significant effect on the feel and performance of the latex layers inside the mattress. I should also mention that a 24 or 28 ILD transition layer is not generally considered to be firm at all (closer to soft or medium soft)

All the layers of a mattress actually compress simultaneously not sequentially and they will each compress to different percentages of their thickness depending on their position on the mattress, the firmness of each layer, the compression modulus of the material, the thickness of each layer, and the compression force that they are exposed to (which depends on the weight of the part of the body in contact with the mattress and the surface area that is bearing that weight which is constantly changing as you sink into the mattress more or change sleep positions).

While “going through” a layer is commonly used as a way to explain things because there is a different amount of force that “goes through” a layer and compresses the next layer of the mattress depending on the hysteresis of the material (how much energy it absorbs) and on how point elastic the material is (how much compression affects or is affected by the surrounding areas of the layer) … it would be just as accurate to say that you will “feel through” the top layer meaning that you will feel the properties of the next layer down to different degrees. Even the softest latex won’t “bottom out” (meaning it has no more ability to compress because the walls of the cell structure are fully compressed on top of each other) if it is on top of another foam layer and will have the ability to compress more yet even though very soft latex will compress to a much larger percentage of its thickness than a firmer layer. Every layer of a mattress affects and is affected by every other layer in the mattress to different degrees.

The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what “stops” the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people … or don’t.

Without personal testing and going through the learning curve of becoming familiar enough with different types of materials and layering and how they work in combination with each other to predict how a certain layering may work for you … you would be much better off simply going with the suggestions of a knowledgeable retailer or manufacturer who is familiar with how the different options they offer fits the “averages” of people who may be similar to you.

There is no formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience and without this the next best way to decide on the design of a mattress is to use the “averages” of a manufacturer for people of your weight range, body type, sleeping style, and personal preferences. These “averages” may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on the specific designs and options that they have available (including all the components such as the cover or quilting layers which can also have a significant effect on how the mattress feels and performs not just the latex or foam layers).

So I could say that for your wife a “typical” layering would be “in the area” of soft / medium / firm in a 3 layer mattress with each layer being 3" or soft over medium firm with a 6" + 3" construction while for you a typical layering would be medium / firm / extra firm or perhaps even medium firm over extra firm in a 6 + 3 construction. With a 12" mattress … the firmness would go up on average because thicker mattresses will “act” softer for most people. If you make changes to one of the specs (such as the layer thickness of the top layer) … then you may also need to make other changes to the other layers to compensate.

All of this is just to give you a sense that your questions may be much more complex and have many more variables and uncertainties involved than you may realize and the certainty you are looking for may only come with personal experience. As I mentioned in my last reply it may be much less frustrating and involve a much shorter learning curve to work with a manufacturer or retailer that already knows what you would otherwise have to learn and also offers pre-designed mattresses with options that they can match to different people with higher odds of success and have the ability to either re-arrange layers, exchange layers, or even refund the mattress if you make mistakes in your layering choices or if “averages” don’t work for you as well as you hoped.

If you do decide to do all of this on your own or want to design a mattress based on specs (and ILD is not the only spec that will make a significant difference) you would need to do some personal testing on layer combinations of different types, thicknesses, and firmness levels of latex and evaluate your experiences with each of them and the specifics of the layers you have tried (if they are available) for anyone else to have any meaningful input into what you may want to change compared to what you have tested.

The reality is that if you hope to save money by designing your own mattress by specs and buying each layer and component separately, then you will need to trade your time, go through the learning curve, and gain the experience and personal insights into your specific needs and preferences from personal testing to improve your odds of success. If this is worth it to you then it can be a great experience and very satisfying but it’s important to keep your expectations realistic IMO and to realize that there are no shortcuts if you plan to do all of this on your own outside of the guidance of a manufacturer or retailer who has already done most of the work and learning and gained the experience that you would otherwise need to do for yourself … especially when your circumstances and the difference in your individual needs and preferences are likely to be more challenging than the norm.

Phoenix

8

I see, thanks! So, if you recommend going with an actual mattress rather than creating layers, what is the downside to BB’s 12" bamboo bed, since it’s not all latex (8" Omalon foam core, a 3" latex topper and a 1" wool topper)?

Thanks again!

9

I worry about people your size on anything with a “foam core.” You’re not petite, and the poly foam is going to soften and sag under the latex. If you’re really wanting to get long lasting comfort, you will be better served choosing something two sided, with no poly foam. Otherwise it is just a bed that has latex, and not really a latex mattress.

10

Hi Bgarfield,

I think that creating a layered mattress can be a great idea … as long as you are working with a manufacturer that has the knowledge and experience to give you good guidance and has exchange or return policies that can help you if you make choices that you need to change.

Post #2 here talks more about the difference between a latex / polyfoam hybrid and an all latex mattress. I would also suggest because of your much heavier weight (which will compress more of the mattress surface) that you also consider using more than just a single layer of latex because as I mentioned you will “go through” only 3" which can add to durability issues of the layers below it. 2.17 lb Omalon is a very durable grade of polyfoam and will wear very well but it’s not as durable as firmer latex.

Phoenix