Latex performance hindered by mattress encasement

[DanielH]

Hi Phoenix, I have some observations and wonder if you concur that this is what might be expected when comparing latex performance alone (or in a highly stretchable covering) to latex encased in a mattress encasement:

Thoughts/experience on a latex mattress base layer being encased in stiff fabric:

The base layer of my mattress is completely sewn inside an encasement of fabric. The base layer can not fully perform the way latex is capable of due to the encasement. Example, press down with hand, stiff fabric adapts fairly enough along with the latex, some hindrance of adaptiveness due to the fabric is noticeable. Now press down with a second hand about a foot apart and the first hand can feel the tug of the fabric lifting it up, plus a bridging effect between the two points is evident, such that the latex between the two points is not able to act independently but is pressed down with this bridge of fabric. When laying down (not even just laying on the base layer, but also laying on the mattress with the comfort layer of latex on it) this effect is noticeable such that when lying alone I sink in slightly but meaningfully less than when my wife lies down too. The base layer also should benefit from the extreme adaptability and supportiveness of latex, but the encasement hinders this. Since the latex cannot perform to its fullest due to the encasement, it seems to me it may just as well be some other material instead of latex since it cannot perform with the full ability it is capable of. I am tempted to cut the base layer out of the encasement to get the full latex performance I got the latex mattress for, although this would undoubtedly lead to a softer feel (as well as kill my warranty), and while it would unleash the characteristics of the latex, the added softness may be less comfortable than when encased (if it was found to be too soft the best option seems to me to then get a higher ILD base layer but such an exchange is an expensive option).

Same kind of effect is had with the top layer of latex when placed under a quilted layer of foam/wool/bamboo, the latex characteristics are significantly hindered. The feel of laying on the quilted layer over the latex is vastly different than what latex feels like when laying on it without a quilted layer, where the quilted layer greatly subtracts supportiveness, and pressure relieving characteristics of latex. Latex feels like being suspended, with tremendous pressure relief, where the quilted top lends a great deal of pressure to the feel, and feels quite saggy probably due to the poly foam in the quilting. The ability of the latex to adapt to each point of pressure independently is also greatly compromised at least partly due to the same bridging effect described above. Does not feel and perform like latex alone is capable of.

Do these descriptions mesh with your understanding?

When I removed the top quilted layer of foam/wool/bamboo and put the comfort latex layer inside a four way stretch fabric mattress cover I am sleeping faaarr better than I have in months (have had terrible mattresses recently - and this mattress when used with the quilted top was as bad and worse, without the quilted top it feels pretty nice), but I also paid a lot of money for latex performance that I am not fully benefiting from due to the base layer being sewn into the encasement.

Any thoughts on just how much latex performance characteristics would enhance the overall feel if I were to have a base layer not encased in a fabric that restricts its performance?

[Lew]

Daniel, I think your description of what is happening is spot on. I found, when trying latex mattresses, that a loose knit mattress cover let the latex conform to my body much better than a tight weave cover. The problem is exacerbated when you add a mattress protector. If you get a waterproof cover it will have some of the same effect on the latex. Even a tight fitting sheet will add some of the “trampoline effect”.

What mattress do you have and how long have you been sleeping on it? Lew

[phoenix]

Hi DanielH,

When it comes to mattress design everything involves some kind of tradeoff and usually has some pros and cons connected to it.

In the case of individual layers of latex that are encased it would depend a great deal on the type of fabric that encased them and which layers you were testing. If a layer was encased in a more stretchy fabric for example then it would have much less effect while if it was encased in a less stretchy fabric the effect would be more. In the same way … if the layer was deeper in the mattress then any effect of encasing a layer would be much less noticeable than if it was closer to the surface (deeper layers affect the feel of a mattress less). In some cases reducing the amount of compression in a layer could even be a benefit for some people depending on how it affected them in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences).

Quilting layers are the same as well as the fabric a manufacturer chooses for their tick (the cover of the mattress). There are people who prefer a quilted cover with a latex mattress because the materials used in the quilting can change the surface or hand feel of the mattress in ways that they prefer (such as the temperature control of wool or the lower resilience of a thin layer of quilting foam) which are worth the tradeoff of how it affects the feel and performance of the latex itself while others prefer a stretch knit cover with no quilting which allows more of the feel of the latex itself to come through and where the wool or quilting material is replaced with a different type of fire barrier in the cover (if the wool was used as the fire barrier). All of these are based on personal preferences.

When a manufacturer designs a mattress … they will usually select every component with an eye to the tradeoffs that are involved with that particular component and layer and and how it affects the overall design goal of the mattress and of course whether the cost of the layer or component keeps the mattress inside the budget range they are targeting.

I also tend to look at a mattress in two ways. First as a combination of individual materials and components that each have individual pros and cons and where each has an individual effect on every other layer and on feel, pressure relief, and alignment to some degree. Second I look at the complete mattress as a whole where the effect of all the individual components and layers have a combined effect and are experienced “as a whole” in terms of PPP where it can be more difficult to assign which parts of what you are feeling come from which component or material because several of them may have a combined effect and contribute to what you are feeling or assessing. When you are looking at making a change that will affect one aspect of a mattress’ performance … it will usually have effects on other aspects as well that may be more or less noticeable or even desirable for each person. I see this a lot when people make changes to a mattress to improve say pressure relief and end up also changing other aspects of a mattress’ performance (such as alignment) and in some cases unknowingly exchanging one issue for another. This is where knowledge and experience with mattress design and construction can be very helpful and this can be a never ending learning curve.

This combined effect is what people actually sleep on and for most people the mattress “as a whole” and the degree that it provides them with the PPP that is “close enough” to their ideal in each area is all that is really important and which layers contribute to which part of their experience is not as important.

For others however that enjoy a more analytical or theoretical approach either for the challenge of learning it (and I would include myself in this group) or out of a desire to make changes to their mattress to bring it closer to their “ideal” … then understanding the specific benefits of each component or material and how it contributes to the larger whole can be more important … but is also more complex.

You are certainly accurate IMO in your assessments of how each of the components you are mentioning can affect the feel and performance of a mattress and it’s clear to me you have a good understanding of the effects of each. Beyond this though … each person may have a different opinion or experience of whether the effect of each (such as a covered latex layer or quilting materials) was beneficial or detrimental to the mattress as a whole because this would be up to the preferences of each individual person. Deciding to make changes would depend on how they felt about the mattress as a whole and on how “experimental” or “creative” they may want to be (such as removing components or adding components that are not part of the original design) and how comfortable they were with the “risk” of unexpected results that any change may produce.

Any thoughts on just how much latex performance characteristics would enhance the overall feel if I were to have a base layer not encased in a fabric that restricts its performance?

The most challenging part of all of this is not so much to predict the effect of any changes itself (which you have done) but to predict the “degree” of effect that any change may have and this can vary depending on many factors including the sensitivity of perception and the body type and sleeping style of the person themselves. Changes may be more noticeable for some and less or even not noticeable at all for others. For example some changes may be below the threshold of perception in one sleeping position but can become very obvious in another. In the same way … lighter body types may not notice changes that are made deeper in a mattress where for heavier body types that compress the layer more a change can have a more significant effect.

The general rule is that changes that are closer to the surface will have a greater effect on how a mattress feels and performs for most people and the deeper layers will have less effect on what people feel although they may still have an effect on what they experience on the mattress over longer periods of time because time also “amplifies” the effect of smaller changes so it may be more noticeable in the morning than it is when you first go to bed. An example of this would be people who tend to spend much more time in one position where any small alignment or pressure issues can become more of an issue because they are experienced for longer time periods which can cause the body to react differently past a certain threshold while people who change positions more frequently and don’t spend as long in each position may not be affected by the same thing because they don’t experience the pressure or alignment issue for long enough for the body to compensate or react to it to the same degree and other factors may be more important overall.

So to cut through all the theory and analysis … my approach would be to first clearly identify whether a mattress “needs” improvement in the first place based on your actual experience on the mattress or whether a design change is more “experimental” or “theoretical” just for the sake of knowing or getting from say 90% “perfect” to 95% “perfect” for its own sake to see how much of a difference this would make and whether the risk of any attempts to improve it are worth the potential “rewards”.

Regardless of any of this though … I do enjoy a good “theoretical” discussion from time to time and when time permits

Phoenix

[DanielH]

I apologize for not responding sooner, but I was wanting to use up my 120 days experience with the mattress before naming the company it came from.

@ Phoenix: glad to see I was seeing things rightly. Sure, some may find comfortable what I have not been finding so, but regarding the fact that the latex base layer is not able to perform fully like latex when encased in fabric I’m glad do see I had the theory about it right, but sad that it is so and that I bought from a company that does this. Another company has an encasement that can be unzipped. Should have gone with them as I was considering doing. Alas . . .

@ Lew: When I wrote the opening post of this thread it had been about three weeks that I had used the mattress. The company I purchased my mattress from is Brooklyn Bedding. The reviews on their site last I looked were all five star reviews, and I am guessing, but maybe I’m wrong, but I am guessing this means they only publish five star reviews, because the reality is, no mattress can be five stars for everyone, even with the option to adjust the firmness of the mattresses comfort layer. I will know for sure what practice they use for publishing reviews after I submit mine, as it will be less than five stars.

For me, with nearly four months of having the mattress, and with three different firmnesses of comfort layers, it just hasn’t worked out. I can get to sleep okay on it, but most mornings I wake tossing and turning uncomfortably. My wife finds it just okay, but not something that begs to be crawled into because it is so comfortable. It is definitely not worth the premium price we paid for it.

Sadly, every time I communicated via phone or email with Jacob or Mario I felt like I was speaking to a salesman trying to sell me instead of someone truly trying to help me. They often (but not always) said the right words, but it’s how they say it, you know? That’s the vibe I got, anyway. Example: when I asked the same question asked in the original post, Jacob said, no, the quilted layer “enhances” the latex and gave me a spiel about fire retardance and how it helps in sleeping cooler - however, I don’t use fire on my bed (yeah, I know, it’s a probably a legal thing they have to abide by), and I find the latex sleeps noticeably cooler without the quilted layer - plus the quilted layer adds the feeling of pressure that is not felt when using the latex alone. So yeah, I felt they were more salesman-y, concerned about making the sale, rather than truly concerned about my experience with the mattress.
Even when they say all the “right” words, it’s said kinda fast, and they lead you in the direction they want to go in the conversation. Maybe other buyers feel otherwise, but that is the vibe I got.

Note that the big “RISK FREE” badge on their site means you can return the mattress, but with the risk of having to pay $250-$600 for return shipping, a price quoted to me by Mario just moments ago on the phone. So, yeah, you can return it, but not exactly risk free.

In the end, with just a few days to decide, I’m debating to keep it or not. I am sooo tired of trying to find a mattress and this one gets my about 70% through the night. But dang it’s expensive for a mediocre night of sleep. I did enter their YouTube contest, and so long as they don’t change the date on it again (they moved it back two months from the original closing date - shady), it may cover my return shipping cost. But the winner is finalized after I have to return it, so I’d have to return it being uncertain if my winnings would cover the return shipping or not. Sigh. Remind me to never buy a mattress online again (this is the second one) unless I’ve a chance to test it first, and unless it has a genuinely Risk Free guarantee.

[Maconi]

[quote=“DanielH” post=22492]I apologize for not responding sooner, but I was wanting to use up my 120 days experience with the mattress before naming the company it came from.

@ Phoenix: glad to see I was seeing things rightly. Sure, some may find comfortable what I have not been finding so, but regarding the fact that the latex base layer is not able to perform fully like latex when encased in fabric I’m glad do see I had the theory about it right, but sad that it is so and that I bought from a company that does this. Another company has an encasement that can be unzipped. Should have gone with them as I was considering doing. Alas . . .

@ Lew: When I wrote the opening post of this thread it had been about three weeks that I had used the mattress. The company I purchased my mattress from is Brooklyn Bedding. The reviews on their site last I looked were all five star reviews, and I am guessing, but maybe I’m wrong, but I am guessing this means they only publish five star reviews, because the reality is, no mattress can be five stars for everyone, even with the option to adjust the firmness of the mattresses comfort layer. I will know for sure what practice they use for publishing reviews after I submit mine, as it will be less than five stars.

For me, with nearly four months of having the mattress, and with three different firmnesses of comfort layers, it just hasn’t worked out. I can get to sleep okay on it, but most mornings I wake tossing and turning uncomfortably. My wife finds it just okay, but not something that begs to be crawled into because it is so comfortable. It is definitely not worth the premium price we paid for it.

Sadly, every time I communicated via phone or email with Jacob or Mario I felt like I was speaking to a salesman trying to sell me instead of someone truly trying to help me. They often (but not always) said the right words, but it’s how they say it, you know? That’s the vibe I got, anyway. Example: when I asked the same question asked in the original post, Jacob said, no, the quilted layer “enhances” the latex and gave me a spiel about fire retardance and how it helps in sleeping cooler - however, I don’t use fire on my bed (yeah, I know, it’s a probably a legal thing they have to abide by), and I find the latex sleeps noticeably cooler without the quilted layer - plus the quilted layer adds the feeling of pressure that is not felt when using the latex alone. So yeah, I felt they were more salesman-y, concerned about making the sale, rather than truly concerned about my experience with the mattress.
Even when they say all the “right” words, it’s said kinda fast, and they lead you in the direction they want to go in the conversation. Maybe other buyers feel otherwise, but that is the vibe I got.

Note that the big “RISK FREE” badge on their site means you can return the mattress, but with the risk of having to pay $250-$600 for return shipping, a price quoted to me by Mario just moments ago on the phone. So, yeah, you can return it, but not exactly risk free.

In the end, with just a few days to decide, I’m debating to keep it or not. I am sooo tired of trying to find a mattress and this one gets my about 70% through the night. But dang it’s expensive for a mediocre night of sleep. I did enter their YouTube contest, and so long as they don’t change the date on it again (they moved it back two months from the original closing date - shady), it may cover my return shipping cost. But the winner is finalized after I have to return it, so I’d have to return it being uncertain if my winnings would cover the return shipping or not. Sigh. Remind me to never buy a mattress online again (this is the second one) unless I’ve a chance to test it first, and unless it has a genuinely Risk Free guarantee.[/quote]

@"Maconi" post=22456

Something else I just thought of. There is a layer of fabric (cover) between the two layers in the BB mattress. Does this affect the feel of the mattress at all (like if it would create tension/prevent you from fully utilizing the flexibility/support of the core)?

I just recently joined the community and noticed the something similar about the mattress in question (as you can see above). I’m sure most don’t even notice it/care but I figured it could be a variable to us picky sort.

To be fair, Arizona Premium Mattress Co. (Mattress.net) uses a similar cover, they just don’t shove another layer of fabric between the topper/core. Although I understand what you’re saying (since all the latex is easily accessible you could take it out of APM’s provided cover and place it in one of your choice).

All of the latex mattress return policies are similar though. “Free” to return (as in no fees/penalties), but you gotta pay return shipping. APM offers 60 days, BB 120 days.

Honestly they’re all businesses out to make money, and there seems to be a bit of a blood feud between APM and BB (seen HERE, Dreamfoam is owned by the same person as BB if I understand correctly), but I hope you’re able to get everything worked out. I’ve never tried latex or memory foam, but am getting ready to buy a latex (been trying to decide between APM and BB, probably going with APM) and hoping my experience is a bit better.

Good luck.

[phoenix]

Hi DanielH,

I apologize for not responding sooner, but I was wanting to use up my 120 days experience with the mattress before naming the company it came from.

No problem … although there is also no problem naming a company right from the beginning because your satisfaction with a mattress (or how it feels for anyone) has little to do with it’s quality or material value and someone that is unhappy with a mattress and didn’t make the most suitable choice certainly doesn’t reflect badly on a manufacturer … it’s just part of reality. There are always some percentage of people who for whatever reason are unhappy with the choice they made and I think most people understand this (at least on this site) and that how someone feels about their mattress has little to do with how the next person may feel or with the quality or value of the mattress (except of course on an individual level).

@ Phoenix: glad to see I was seeing things rightly. Sure, some may find comfortable what I have not been finding so, but regarding the fact that the latex base layer is not able to perform fully like latex when encased in fabric I’m glad do see I had the theory about it right, but sad that it is so and that I bought from a company that does this. Another company has an encasement that can be unzipped. Should have gone with them as I was considering doing. Alas . . .

I’m not so sure that I would agree you are seeing things “rightly” or with the title or premise of your thread or that the encasement is the cause of why you don’t like your mattress (as I mentioned in my earlier reply this is much less likely in the deeper layers). I’m sorry to hear that you made a purchase you aren’t happy with but the encasement deeper in the mattress could just as easily help as hinder, would be a less likely cause of your symptoms, and it’s certainly not a “bad” thing to do or “sad” that they do it IMO. If someone preferred this mattress over another design then it would be a “happy” thing they were doing and both would be based on the PPP of that mattress relative to each person. One is not “better” than another … only different and each design offers pros and cons. There would have been no way to predict your experience down to the level of detail that most people wouldn’t feel. There are many manufacturers that use cotton, wool, separate covers, or coir in between their latex layers and it certainly doesn’t detract from the mattress and would have an effect that was even larger than the encasement. It’s just a different design that is part of what makes each mattress suitable for one and not so suitable for another. Latex always performs “like latex” because of course it is latex and part of mattress design is combining materials to create the feel and performance that is the design goal of the mattress.

For me, with nearly four months of having the mattress, and with three different firmnesses of comfort layers, it just hasn’t worked out. I can get to sleep okay on it, but most mornings I wake tossing and turning uncomfortably. My wife finds it just okay, but not something that begs to be crawled into because it is so comfortable. It is definitely not worth the premium price we paid for it.

I certainly agree that no mattress is worth any price (even free) if you don’t sleep well on it but it certainly isn’t a premium priced mattress based on the quality of the materials or the material value of the mattress. Of course it’s certainly a premium mattress compared to other mattresses that use lower quality materials. It’s unfortunate though when you are in a small minority where a layer exchange doesn’t solve the issue. It may also be worth reading post #2 here which has some suggestions (outside of a comfort exchange) that you may find helpful in isolating the underlying cause of why you are tossing and turning or at least ruling out some of the possibilities.

Sadly, every time I communicated via phone or email with Jacob or Mario I felt like I was speaking to a salesman trying to sell me instead of someone truly trying to help me. They often (but not always) said the right words, but it’s how they say it, you know? That’s the vibe I got, anyway. Example: when I asked the same question asked in the original post, Jacob said, no, the quilted layer “enhances” the latex and gave me a spiel about fire retardance and how it helps in sleeping cooler - however, I don’t use fire on my bed (yeah, I know, it’s a probably a legal thing they have to abide by), and I find the latex sleeps noticeably cooler without the quilted layer - plus the quilted layer adds the feeling of pressure that is not felt when using the latex alone.

Again their comments are based on their experience and for many people it’s accurate. The quilting they use actually adds to the cost of the mattress vs a cover that doesn’t use any quilting materials so it’s unlikely that they would use materials in the mattress that costs them more if they didn’t believe that it provided a benefit to most people. Of course what works well for one doesn’t work as well for another but all good manufacturers do their best to make a mattress that “most” people will like in a price range that has good value. I don’t perceive this as anything but telling you what for many people would be accurate in their experience. The quilting actually does help most people sleep cooler so this is not “salesmanship” at all. A quilted layer though does change the feel of the latex (in some cases firmer and in some softer depending on the type of quilting) and hopefully you’ve tried sleeping with the cover unzipped (which I’m guessing from your comments you have) to see if this makes any difference. If you have tried the mattress without the quilting and this didn’t help then it means that the quilting layer isn’t the issue either so neither the deeper encasement or the quilting layer are the most likely reason you aren’t happy with the mattress.

Note that the big “RISK FREE” badge on their site means you can return the mattress, but with the risk of having to pay $250-$600 for return shipping, a price quoted to me by Mario just moments ago on the phone. So, yeah, you can return it, but not exactly risk free.

Their banner clicks through to a complete explanation of their policy. I hope you read the specifics so you were prepared for shipping charges in case you were one of the few who needed a return and factored that into your personal value equation. If you didn’t then of course your research wasn’t complete. If you did then this is under the category of “best efforts all around” don’t always work out but has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The return policy is as much a part of the purchase as the mattress and finding fault with it after a purchase is like buying a piece of wooden furniture and then finding fault with wood because you didn’t like it. It was part of what you chose to purchase.

To use your own words … you are saying some of the “right” things but saying them with a kinda negative “tone” or “vibe” which implies to me that you are trying to find fault in their design or policies where none exists. They are very transparent and nothing about their mattresses is hidden (unlike most manufacturers). You are also using my reply as “ammunition” that you are somehow correct in your assumptions when that’s not what my post says at all. It only talks about tradeoffs that can affect how a mattress feels. Each consumer is responsible for the risks they take on with an online purchase and is responsible for making sure they know and are comfortable with any return policy if they are one of those who needs to use it and this is just part of good research for any online purchase. Of course this is always disappointing and nobody likes to be in this position but it happens. When everyone has done their best to make you happy (which is everyone’s goal) and they have provided you with several layer exchanges (instead of just one which is their policy and for which it seems you don’t give them any credit for going above and beyond) and then implying that somehow they are doing something “wrong” or their design is somehow “flawed” if you are one of the small percentage of their customers that aren’t happy with your choice certainly isn’t what I would call a balanced or fair approach.

The facts are that you made the best possible choice available at the time and they not only gave you their best possible guidance that was most likely to succeed … they did more than they were required to do with the exchanges when you weren’t happy. Hopefully you were fully aware that there were some risks involved and were completely comfortable with those risks and the possibility that you would be outside the averages. It seems to me that everyone did their best to make you happy with your purchase and then, like some things in life, it didn’t work out. That’s just the law of averages and something that each person needs to be prepared for with any important purchase without needing to find fault or changing “how” they say things or using negative “vibes” to somehow imply that something else is wrong when it really isn’t.

If you have any idea of why you may be tossing and turning or experiencing any other “symptoms” on your mattress … it may be worthwhile doing the detective work that might find a solution without having to go through the expense of returning it … and to the degree possible I’d certainly be happy to help … and based on my experience with them … so would Brooklyn Bedding.

Phoenix

[DanielH]

So many things to reply to, but so little time. I can understand your stance of defense for BB considering you have placed your recommendation for their product. However, I was simply sharing my experience and not looking to instigate fairness questions about my statements. I tried very hard to state things as my experience with a real effort to avoid cutting and hard comments which I believe would have been unfair of me. It would have been especially unfair of me if I did so since I actually don’t feel cutting or hard feelings toward Brooklyn or their employees.

I will address four of your points that I think most important. First, the comfort exchange layer. Their site doesn’t state the number of exchanges they will make, or didn’t when I ordered (I made a point to notice this when researching them, and not sure what their site states now), but when I talked with Mario, he told me they will do two exchanges, then a third I would have to pay for shipping. Just to be accurate on that point, since their site isn’t/wasn’t clear and this lead you to suggest I was unfair of their going above and beyond their promise of one exchange, when there is (or was?) no number of exchanges given on their site. So I was not being unfair by ignoring any amount of above-and-beyond-ness.

Second point, I did read their return policy before purchasing. I was just pointing it out clearly to cut through the marketing language that it is: Risk Free with small print that defines risk free as something that does include a very real and unexplained risk. That is, once you know they define risk free as “customer pays return shipping” you have to ask them what the risk (return cost) is.

Third, I never would seek to find fault. I simply explained the way their approach felt to me. Salesman-y. I have had salesman that were helpful, strictly, purely, through and through. Just wasn’t the way it was here, at least not for me. Jacob denying my experience that the encasement altered the feel of the latex in what to me was a negative way, with him only focusing on possible benefits of it, is a perfect example. In my mind, self-interested/defensive salesman do that, but not truly intending to be helpful salesman. Simply tried to relay my experience along with my feeling about it. Nothing more. I thought it a good balance to the what are only five star reviews on their site.

Four, your statement that “Latex always performs ‘like latex’ because of course it is latex” doesn’t seem to me to address the intended meaning if my comments about this. If you have latex, alone, it has a very specific feel and performance. Add a fabric encasement, and it performs and feels very differently, and I most notably, for me, I found that the encasement greatly interferes with the pressure relieving characteristics of latex alone. To me, pressure relief is one of the strongest selling points of latex. When pressure was felt on my latex mattress that was on par with pressure of a “conventional” mattress, I was quite disappointed. That’s what I was intending to convey: my experience. Unless I inadvertently conveyed something else again

Am I “outside the averages”? I don’t know. I don’t see any numbers to be able to say yes or no on the matter. Is there any clear unbiased data on that?

One final note: I have yet to return my previous comfort layer exchange, so last night I staggered the two comfort layers I have on the base layer to create a zoning construction. After one night, it seems to both my wife and I to be the best variation we have tried with this mattress so far. Looks promising. Fingers crossed.

[phoenix]

Hi DanielH,

I was simply sharing my experience and not looking to instigate fairness questions about my statements. I tried very hard to state things as my experience with a real effort to avoid cutting and hard comments which I believe would have been unfair of me.

You may certainly have tried but you didn’t quite succeed. One of the goals of the site when I first started it was to cut through most of the misinformation that is on the web and to help educate consumers with factual information and cut through the marketing information that is so common.

While it’s certainly true that consumers are exposed to a lot of misinformation when they are doing their research … one of the most misleading sources of information about mattresses is mattress reviews and not the information on the websites of manufacturers and retailers. Unfortunately they also carry disproportionate weight in consumer perceptions and decisions who don’t really realize that it’s usually best to ignore them … or at least take them with a big grain of salt (whether they are good or bad). This isn’t because they are shills or lies … but because in almost all cases consumers just don’t know how to assess the quality or value of a mattress and mistake their own experience on a mattress with it’s quality. This ends up feeding into a herd mentality where people buy on the approval of others and the number of misinformed opinions or information from people who know little to nothing about mattresses replaces actual research. This is a lot like coil counting when you choose a mattress (where the number of coils has little to nothing to do with the quality or suitability of a mattress). This is one of the reasons this will never be a review site and why I respond to and “correct” some of the reviews that are posted here so that they can act as a source of education for the many others that will read it. You can read more of my thoughts about mattress reviews in post #13 here.

Part of this is to help consumers replace hindsight with foresight and to help them recognize the difference between the suitability of a design based on the needs and preferences of an individual and the actual quality and material value of a mattress. This can also help them evaluate the benefits and risks of their purchase and take it into account in their personal value equation without minimizing or discounting either one. In today’s world where any anonymous consumer can post their thoughts and opinions about a mattress in hundreds or places around the net and their words or implications can be easily interpreted as being factual by consumers who don’t know any better … it was important to me that at least one site on the internet didn’t allow the incorrect or misleading information in many reviews or the implications they contained be left without comment so that good quality and value manufacturers (and there are not nearly enough of these in the industry) aren’t harmed by reviews that contain statements that either directly or by implication (some more subtle than others) aren’t correct. The most common consumer mistake is in confusing individual preferences or the comfort and support of a mattress with its quality and value.

There are several things that you said that either directly or through implication say things that cross the line between expressing individual preferences or opinions (which are always welcome) and implying fact. You also used some of the information I provided you as a form of justification that you were “seeing things rightly” when you weren’t … or at least not completely.

All the components and the design information that was the basis for your comments was easily available to you before you made your purchase and every one of your experiences could have been predicted by following the steps in the “read first” post or with questions on the forum including testing mattresses that had quilted covers and mattresses that didn’t. There are many people who prefer a quilted cover quilted with either natural or synthetic fibers or with polyfoam and there are also many who prefer sleeping as directly on the latex as possible. This isn’t better or worse and doesn’t make the mattress any less of a “latex mattress”. Latex is an unusual and highly resilient material and some people who don’t like the feeling of sleeping directly on latex find that it produces a feeling that they often call “pushback” while for others with the right design this same feeling is called “uplifting comfort and support” or even “sleeping on a cloud”. Everything depends on individual preferences and perceptions and when a post implies that a certain design that many people like is somehow a design flaw when it isn’t it needs to be made clear that they are only speaking about a personal preference. In the same way I doubt that most people would even be able to clearly discern the effect of an enclosed core deeper in the mattress without trying the exact same mattress where the latex layers were not enclosed. Speculation from those who have little experience or knowledge about mattress construction can be harmful … intended or not … because it places seeds of doubt about whether the information is factual or just a personal preference.

There was more in your post that crossed a line that implies that your own opinions were more factual or accurate than they were and these types of reviews have an undue and disproportionate influence on the perceptions and opinions of others that read them. One of the worst ways to buy a mattress is reading reviews because there are so few consumers that are reviewing the quality of a mattress (and identifying all the materials inside it) vs reviewing the suitability of a mattress which is unique to each individual (along with their body type, sleeping style, and general preferences to give their comments some meaning).

So I’m actually grateful when these types of posts are made on the forum because it provides a chance to more clearly make the points that are expressed so often on the site and help people understand that there are many more subtle factors and tradeoffs involved in mattress design that can make a real difference one way or another. Without a reference point of your own personal testing … an online purchase (or any purchase) can be risky. The “defense” you referred to is not because they are a member (I have done the same thing with manufacturers that were not members) but because of the implications in your post that others wouldn’t have the knowledge or experience to understand that you were only expressing your own thoughts about the mattress as it relates to your specific preferences and not making any comments about the quality or value of the mattress or its design. Your comments were too general in scope and implication in other words and it wasn’t clear enough that you were only expressing comments about how the mattress “felt” to you rather than making comments about the quality of its construction.

As you mentioned … the “tone” or “vibe” of written information says as much as the words themselves and some of what you said is a great example of why foresight is much more valuable than hindsight or making negative comments after the fact. Perhaps the implications or the tone wasn’t what you intended but it was included in your post. Your information and thoughts would have carried much more weight if you had posted them or asked questions about them before you made your purchase rather than making judgements about them afterwards. I doubt that some of the substance or implications of your post would have been expressed the same way if you were happy with your mattress when the facts about its construction, design, quality, and value would have been the same.

Hopefully this will help you understand why I use posts like yours to make a point and help educate those who follow so they don’t make the same mistakes and others who read your post and the response really can be in a better position to replace hindsight with foresight, develop more reasonable expectations for a purchase, and be in a better position to evaluate the benefits and risks of any purchase before the fact rather than after.

Phoenix

[jefmoody]

One final note: I have yet to return my previous comfort layer exchange, so last night I staggered the two comfort layers I have on the base layer to create a zoning construction. After one night, it seems to both my wife and I to be the best variation we have tried with this mattress so far. Looks promising. Fingers crossed.[/quote]

Which mattress did you buy (sorry if I missed it)? It sounds like your mattress has only one comfort layer like the Bamboo Bliss. If you added a second comfort layer to the base, it appears you have created a type of Aloe Alexis! Or did you mean you finally found a combination you both enjoy?
Anywho, I hope you find peace with your purchase and sleep well.
Jeff

[phoenix]

Hi DanielH,

One final note: I have yet to return my previous comfort layer exchange, so last night I staggered the two comfort layers I have on the base layer to create a zoning construction. After one night, it seems to both my wife and I to be the best variation we have tried with this mattress so far. Looks promising. Fingers crossed.

I agree this looks very promising and can certainly point to a less costly solution … perhaps with a topper.

@jefmoody

I believe it was the Total Latex Mattress.

Phoenix