Latex Topper Help

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi and thank you for this site!

After being completely made fun of by my significant other for returning mattress after mattress and doing hours and hours of research, I’ve settled upon a very firm mattress with a topper and am looking for some topper advise.

I’m 5’7" 170lbs male, wide shoulders, athletic build, in 40s. I’m a 50/50 stomach/side sleeper. Queen size bed, spouse on one side who isn’t picky about mattress.

I’ve settled on an inherited (can’t beat the price) very firm and great shape mattress and am looking for the right topper that will accommodate this tough sleeping preference combination (50/50 - side/stomach). If I sleep on something too soft, when stomach sleeping, my lower back “bows” and I wake up with a back ache. If I sleep on something too hard my shoulder is “crunched” into my torso when sleeping on my side.

Overall without a topper, the firm mattress is the best solution for me, particularly for stomach sleeping (but neck hurts a bit), but my shoulder gets pretty achy.

I’ve researched the heck out of toppers (and mattresses), and even own a twin dunlop 16-18IFD here: I have “tested” this twin dunlop soft topper out on my firm queen size and I “think” it fits the bill. However I want to get a Talalay topper as I understand they are more pure and last longer etc… My shoulder still seems to get somewhat crunched however when side sleeping on this 2" soft dunlop. So I’m wondering:
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-Do I go with 3" soft talalay, 16-18 ILD? My concern is that when stomach sleeping I will “bow” too much, but it will solve my shoulder problem?
-Do I go with a 2" soft talalay 16-18 ILD? Since Talalay is “softer” than dunlop, will my shoulder just sink right through that 2" and I end up with a “crunched” shoulder or would it absorb it since its soft?, I imagine stomach sleeping would be fine. If it is too soft, I could add a medium 1" topper under possible?
-Do I go with a 2" “medium” mid 20s ILD Talalay? Then My shoulder may not crunch as much because of more push back, but would this be too much push back on shoulder? If it is not soft enough, I could add a 1" soft ILD talalay to put on top of that?
-Do I do the old 1" medium on top of 1" soft talalay?
-Who do I buy from? “themattressexpert.com”, “sleeplikeabear.com”, “plushbeds.com”, “foambymail.com” holy moly?? I think I want latex that is manufactured by Latex International out of CT, USA, not foreign and sure to be as “all natural” as possible.

The most challenging part, there is no where to try 2" talalay in its varying softnesses around Boston, any recommendations? “thecleanbedroom” in Welllsely, MA only had 1 talalay topper, doesn’t help much comparison shopping. ugh.

My gut tells me to go with a medium 2" talalay (they say it is easier to continue to soften, harder to make firmer). If this is too firm, I can then add a 1" soft talalay on top of it. My only issue would then be I have 3" and when on stomach, my back may “bow”, for which I’m thinking I can “shim” some type of material between the 2" and 1" in the mid-section of the toppers to “push up” on my hip/lumbar area when stomach sleeping.

Confused in Boston!
Thanks for any tips.
If only there was a “latex topper store” where you could play around…

2

Hi BostonMatt,

There are some topper guidelines in post #8 here that may be helpful.

There are too many unknowns and variables and individual preferences to use formula based on “theory at a distance” to predict your own experience on a specific mattress / topper combination in “real life” and the only way to know with any certainty would be your own personal testing or sleeping experience. The specifics of your mattress will also have an effect on the feel and performance of a topper (the same topper will feel differently on different mattresses).

The key with stomach / side sleeping combinations is “just enough” in terms of thickness and softness to provide good pressure relief on your side so that there is less risk of alignment issues when you are sleeping on your stomach. As you suggested … I would start with 2" and then add more if necessary because 3" may be more than your ideal for a stomach sleeper.

There are also many good options in the Boston area that make or carry latex mattresses and / or toppers that may give you a chance to test various toppers on top of a mattress that you think is fairly similar to yours so you have some good reference points. They are listed in post #2 here.

I would also consider that Dunlop ILD’s are not always accurate (see post #6 here) and I would be cautious in using them as the basis for your choice opr comparisons unless you are confident that the retailer you are dealing with has listed them correctly and the densities seem to roughly correspond to the density (see post #2 here as a reference). ILD ranges with Talalay will tend to be more accurate but ILD will also vary between different types of latex.

I would be very cautious about buying latex from Foam by Mail (see post #2 here and post #2 here) and the topper guidelines include a link to some of the better topper sources I’m aware of.

If you aren’t able to test the same or a very similar mattress / topper combination in person to use as a reference point then a more detailed phone conversation with each supplier you are considering would be your best source of specific information about their toppers or for guidance about which one may work best for you. The exchange or return options may also be an important factor in your choice.

You can also read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here because the type and blend of the latex will also play a significant role in the feel and performance of the latex as well as the price you pay.

Phoenix

3

Phoenix,

Thanks so much for your detailed response I really appreciate it.

I’ve been sleeping on this new firm mattress with the Dunlop 2" alleged 16-18 IFD for a few nights and my shoulders are just killing me.

I’m thinking that, as you say, maybe this is not really a true 16-18 IFD/ILD, but firmer.

My plan at this point therefore (I’ve tried a few at stores, but there is so much variability as you say) is to buy a 2" “soft” talalay “all natural” topper from the mattress expert.com here (he says they run a true mid-teens ILD):
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I feel fairly confident the “all natural” talalay will be more supple/softer. My concern is that my shoulder will push right through the 2" and “crunch” on the mattress.

If this happens I believe my next step is to buy a “medium” 1.5" topper from the same place to put under the soft. At that point I’ll have 3.5" medium/soft.

If at that point my stomach sleeping is resulting in misalignment around the hips/lumbar and too much sink in this area, I may place some material between the toppers and the mattresses to “lift” my mid section up an inch (maybe layer some towels or something) which I hope will re-align my lumbar/hips.

Any advise suggestions welcome from anyone who may have been through this or Phoenix.

Thanks so much.

4

Hi BostonMatt,

I’d be (almost) willing to bet the 16-18 ild Dunlop is made by Latex Green, and is 75D (density of 75 kg / m3). Clawdia and I were just talking about something similar. If you google 16-18 ild Dunlop density, you’ll get a several hits which all say 4.75 pcf (which is about 75 kg/m3). As Phoenix’s post says, I’d guess several companies have taken the Kgf from latex greens website and called it ild. 75D Dunlop would not be the softest.

My search for info brought me back to here also, with Phoenix writing about alleged 16-18 Dunlop of 75 kg/m3 density
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/need-feedback-on-mattress-layering-system

If you wanted to verify for your own (or with some help): Weigh the mattress pad (in kg or lbs), indicate the measurements (height, width, length), and then density can be calculated. Post the info here if you’d like… I’m happy (and frankly curious) to calculate it.

I’d guess all 4.75 pcf / 75 kg/m3 Dunlop labeled at 16-18 ild is part of the same root mislabeling / mistake.

5

Thanks DN,

That post, the person must have been talking about the exact same one I have here:
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My other thought (and I believe Pete is a great guy over at themattressexpert.com, he’s been very patient and not pushy at all, seems to be “the real deal”) is to first buy a soft (mid teens) all natural talalay 1.5". Most likely that will not be thick enough, but ease my way in, then buy another 1.5" medium (mid 20s) all natural talaly.

This would give me options in that I could reverse the medium and the soft to be “on top” or “on bottom” respectively. vs. buying first a 2" soft, then potential a 1.5" medium. The only draw back would be that buying 1 2" may solve my whole problem 300$ cheaper than buying 2 1.5" at 650. But at this point I really don’t care.

Any advise welcome.

6

Oh yeah, I did the measure test where I measure from my outer shoulder to my inner torso and it is about 3" from torso to outer shoulder, so I’m assuming I need roughly 3" of topper to solve my “shoulder crunch” problem before hitting the hard mattress. But I don’t want too soft because I’m 50% stomach sleeper… ugh.

7

Hi BostonMatt,

I would completely agree with dn’s comments.

I would also keep in mind that with a 2" topper a big part of how it feels for you will depend on the specifics of the mattress or any other toppers underneath it. This will be true with another topper if you use it on top of the Dunlop topper you currently have (I’m not sure if you are using the one you are buying on top of the one you have or replacing the one you have). Your topper is more likely to be in the range of mid 20’s (see the previous post I linked with density/ILD comparisons for 100% natural Dunlop) which may be a good transition layer.

I would be careful with this assumption because it goes against “theory” (all natural Talalay has a higher compression modulus than blended Talalay and will get firmer faster than the blend) and it also goes against the manufacturers own guidelines (which says that the blend will be more pressure relieving) which you can see here. “All natural” talalay made by LI will also be less durable than the blend … especially in lower ILD’s.

A topper that has a very low ILD (especially for your body weight) can also feel firmer in thinner layers because you will feel more of the firmness of the layers below it than you would with either a thicker or firmer topper. This is one of the “paradoxes” of mattress layering.

Phoenix

8

@Phoenix,

I believe the link you were recommending BostonMatt see is setup wrong. In post #2, where you write :

… roughly correspond to the density (see post #2 here as a reference). ILD ranges with Talalay …

The link I get when I hit ‘post #2’ goes to a page to reply to this thread. I think I know the post you’re wanting to point to even :slight_smile: I believe this is the post you meant:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/likelihood-same-dunlop-product-is-labeled-differently-by-ild-and-firmness

Feel free to delete this post of mine if you correct, or if I’m in error. (Or let me know and I’ll delete).

9

Thanks Phoenix,

Oh brother, I think I’m in a quagmire.

The dunlop I’m testing with now is a twin XL on my queen, so it is just to test, to test rough feel, it will not be part of the permanent setup.

I hear what you are saying on the “all natural” vs “natural”, thanks for that.

I guess my delima then is, given my setup, Male, 5’7" 170 lbs wide shoulders (apparently 3" from torso to outer shoulder), 50/50 side stomach sleeper, no real decent place to do any comparison shopping/testing, what would be my most optimal route?

Scenario #1

  1. Buy a 2" “soft” all natural (that’s all he carries), maybe this will solve all of my problems, shoulder crunch, lumbar dipping on too soft a mattress.
  2. If above is not enough absorption for my shoulder, buy another new 1.5" medium to put under that new 2" soft.
  3. If the combination of #1 and #2 put me in a position where I get too much lumbar dip, jury rig some support under the mid section of both toppers between toppers and mattress.

Scenario #2

  1. Buy a 1.5" “soft” all natural. If my shoulder still crunches. Buy another new 1.5" “medium” topper to put under the soft.
  2. This should be enough for the shoulder, but if they lumbar dips, do what is planned in #3 in scenario 1.

Hmmm, problaby no “right” answer. But without really being able to test/try, just trying to figure out the most sensible way forward, if one exists.

Many thanks,
bostonmatt

10

@ dn,

[quote]I believe the link you were recommending BostonMatt see is setup wrong. In post #2, where you write :

… roughly correspond to the density (see post #2 here as a reference). ILD ranges with Talalay …[/quote]

Well that was interesting. I managed to link to a reply window for this thread instead of the reference post I meant to link … oops. I’ve fixed the link and the post you linked is the one it was supposed to be.

@ BostonMatt

The most accurate way to tell would be local testing of a topper on a mattress that is similar to yours either for purchase or as a guideline for an online purchase. Outside of this … I would use the topper guidelines I linked earlier along with considering the exchange or return policies of the topper as an important part of the “value” of the purchase if you are uncertain or think you may need some trial and error.

I’m also not clear whether you are using the topper on top of the one you already have (the 2" Dunlop topper) or plan to replace it but either way local testing would be the “best” way to choose followed by using the guidelines that use your current sleeping system that you plan to use under the topper as your reference point.

If the topper you are planning to buy is the “all natural” from Latex International then it would be N1 if it’s in the mid - upper teens and may be a little softer than you would do best with and you may be better off with either an N2 (which is in the range of 20 - 24 or so) or perhaps better yet a blended Talalay topper in the 19 - 24 ILD range. I’d probably consider around 19 ILD in their blend if you are catering to your side sleeping more because you are not particularly heavy and appear to prefer something in the softer end of the range that would typically be considered as “soft” but if you spend a lot of time on your stomach or this is a bigger issue for you then a little firmer may be better for alignment on your stomach.

Phoenix

11

HI BostonMatt, Phoenix,

I just ordered a Talalay latex mattress and topper from Siesta Sleep shop in Acton MA - a Pure Latex Bliss (PLB) “Pamper” with a 2" PLB topper (2" fast response = Talalay GL). I liked this firm mattress & soft topper better than the PLB Nature - I’m a side sleeper. I believe the topper has an ILD of 15. Siesta has the PLB Pamper, Nature, and Beautiful on display (king/queen), and has a twin size 2" PLB topper too. And their prices are great compared to the list prices on the PLB website.

Anyway, so, if you want to try out a 2" soft Talalay topper, they have one (call first in case they sell it off the floor). And, right near by, and also in Acton, is Spindle mattress. They are only open Mon-Thurs, but have different densities of dunlop latex there, in 3" thickness (you may want to call for more details, they are a small operation).

Also, Phoenix, this website rocks! Your posts have been great and helped me tremendously. I’ll post more once I get the mattress/topper home and have a chance to sleep on it.

Thanks,

Ken

12

Hi Ken83,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Thanks for your comments and feedback as well!

I’m looking forward to your update when you receive it.

Phoenix

13

Ken83,

Can you describe how your 2" talalay GL fast response feels? Is it soft enough for you and do you feel support as well? Did you also try the slow response? Any odors from this topper?

Thanks,
Diane

14

Hi Diane,

I actually went into the store last night after several weeks of shopping for a mattress, intent on buying the PLB “Nature” - a medium firmness 10" Latex mattress (6" ILD 36, 2" ILD 28, 2" ILD 21). We’ve been to Sleepy’s, Jordans, Gardner, Spindle, and Siesta, trying many of their mattresses. I found many good choices, but all with compromises, and had settled on the PLB Nature.

I saw they had a PLB topper, and decided to try that on the “Pamper”, which is a firm mattress (6" of ILD 40 support with only 2" of ILD 21 as the comfort layer). Wow, I instantly loved that combo. The topper is soft & plush, springy like latex, and not like memory foam. The topper cover was a slightly loose fitting soft cover (cotton?) with a subtle small quilting. This cover had much more “give” than the tighter and firmer cover on the PLB mattress, and I think that contributed to a softer feel, much more like being right on top of the latex.

There’s no doubt this combo was softer and more plush than the Nature, but it was firmer in ways too. For instance, by sitting on the edge of the beds, there was less overall sag in the Pamper+Topper than the Nature. Also, the overall combo had a “deader” feeling than the Nature by itself, so I think there would be less motion transfer between sleepers. I’m not sure if the deader feeling is due to the ILD 40 core, or the separate mattress & topper, but probably a combo of both. And again the combo felt softer and more comfortable than the even thicker PLB Beautiful (12" latex with 6" comfort layer), but also firmer, weird. Anyway, I hope my positive impressions remain after we get the combo in our house and sleep on it!

I asked the salesman (owner) at Siesta about the slow response, and he said he had one in the store earlier and didn’t like it. I’m not sure about the other toppers that PLB sells, my focus last night was “order one in Cal King exactly like this!”. I didn’t detect any smell, but the topper looked a little worn so it was probably in the store for a while. It did have a blue cover, and a label “pure LatexBLISS active fusion climate control”.

Now, I would have thought this would be too soft for me based on the ILD 15 spec, and a strange match with the Pamper (combo total with 4" of soft ILD15 & 21 then right into a super firm ILD 40), but it seemed to work great FOR ME.

Also, this topper by itself is very soft - you could easily fold whole thing in half. I’m mostly a side sleeper, wider at the shoulder and narrower in the waist. The topper allowed my shoulders to sink in further, but it still supported me at my waist. However, with the combo topper/Pamper, I did lose a little needed support at my hips when lying on my back (a small amount of the hammock effect over the “Nature” without the topper)

I hope this helps,

Ken

15

Hi Ken83,

This would be a good example of what I call a “differential” construction where there is a thicker comfort layer (or layers) and then a support layer that is much firmer. If the softer comfort layers are thick enough then they will isolate you from the firmness of the support core and give you the combination you are feeling with “very soft” on top but “firm stability” underneath. It’a kind of a contrast that many people like. Using a topper (which “acts” softer than the same layer inside a mattress) would accentuate this even more. This thread has a discussion about the same thing with some similar “difficult to describe” comments to yours about the difference between a mattress / topper combination and the same layers inside a mattress (although with a different mattress than yours).

Thanks for sharing some great insights and feedback … and congratulations on your new mattress / sleeping system :slight_smile:

Phoenix

16

Thanks so much Ken83. Your response was very helpful. I am considering going with a 15 or 19ILD 2" topper for my mattress. We are fairly light so I think either may work. I think I want a blended talalay, although I’m not quite sure if I really trust the synthetic to not be harmful. You mentioned that you feel some support at your waist yet your shoulders did sink. This is what I am after, so the 15ILD may be he right one for us. I can’t find any around here to try, so I’m just trying to make a really long, drawn out educated guess.
I have a nagging feeling though that good quality polyfoam could be even more comfortable than latex or layered with latex as a comfort layer, but I hate the off gassing/smells. Do you think that the blended talalay is less"springy" than the 100% talalay? This is my concern with buying latex as a comfort layer even in low ILD’s… yes it’s soft, but will it still have a hard, uncomfortable feel?

If you could, I would love to hear about your mattress and topper combo after you receive it. I truly value member’s experiences and reviews here as sometimes this is how some of us can whittle down our choices.

Thanks,

Diane

17

Hi Diane,

I think it’ll be ~10 days to get the mattress/topper, I can’t wait, I hope it wasn’t a dream how good that combo felt.

As far as polyfoam: I found this website after lying on a few Pranasleep mattresses at Jordan’s furniture, doing a google search on Pranasleep, and ending up here (along with lots of reading). The Pranasleep mattresses I tried had 8" of latex and either 2 or 3" of quilted non-latex foam on top (polyfoam?). Those mattresses felt great, soft & firm at the same time, but they are very expensive and there were several reviews of that top quilted foam wearing out quickly and sagging. Most latex mattresses don’t have that soft thick quilted type top cover, so you get right into the latex, which I would say is springy and lively, maybe to a fault as I like the firmness and support of latex, but they typically don’t have that plush feel (without the topper).

Now, that 2" topper though was a cross between the feel of a latex mattresses and that of polyfoam on the Pranasleep or on any of the soft plush traditional mattresses (Sealy, Beautyrest, Stearns & Foster, etc), but it seemed to have only the good qualities of either. It was really soft like a plush traditional mattress, but had a welcome springiness. So much of the feel probably was due to the mattress under it too, but I’d say that topper was both more soft and supporting than the top foam layers of a traditional new mattress (eg Beautyrest). It was really transforming.

That last post by Phoenix (thanks again Phoenix!) points to another thread where they discuss a topper and how it’s like a pillow top. Now, I never really realized what difference a pillow top made till I read that thread, but the topper being independent helps soften up the feel.

Also, I think another big factor is likely the fire barrier. Phoenix, can you confirm: I think mattresses are required to have a fire protection layer in the cover, which probably adds some hardness there as it thickens & stiffens the fabric over the mattress. Whereas the toppers don’t appear to require this (probably by law). The net effect is that the cover on the topper was softer than what was on the mattress, and this definitely contributed to the softness I felt.

FWIW, I’m 6’, 165 lbs, widest at the shoulders, then hips, but not super athletic build either. When I was on my side, this topper did support my waist, while allowing my shoulders to sink in. Again, the mattress played a big role here too. I’m still shocked at the difference between the Pamper/topper and the Nature, two setups both with 10" of total latex and 4" of that in comfort and 6" for support. I’ve been on many different composition latex mattresses (natural, synthetic, talalay, dunlop), and haven’t felt that much of a difference even when the specs would have indicated a larger change. It’s really weird. I just know it would be hard to do this without actually trying them out, so I understand the difficulty you would have in picking something out without being able to try it.

Also, initially I would have preferred all natural latex, just because it’s all natural. But after reading about the differences, I’m not sure that all natural is better, it really might not be. I’ve heard there may be a slight vanilla smell with the talalay when new, I’m prepared for that but not a lot of people mention it or complain, so it’s not a concern for me.

Ken

18

BostonMatt:

Just wanted to make you aware that what you receive when you buy a “soft talalay all natural” topper from the source you mention is N2, which has an ILD range of 20-24, rather than mid-teen ILDs being quoted to you. At least that was my experience.

Hope you find the right combination that works for you.

19

Hi toro,

I can confirm that a mattress is required to pass both 16 CFR 1632 and 1633 regulations and unless you have a prescription they are a requirement for all mattresses but not for toppers. There are many different ways and different materials used to pass the fire regulations though and some of them are “stiffer” and some are softer (various types of fiber, woven, and non woven materials) and each will have its own effect on the “feel” of the mattress so both the fire barrier and the cover itself (quilted vs unquilted) would all have some effect on the feel of a mattress (you can see some examples of different fire barriers here). Some would add softness and some would add “stiffness” or firmness. Even the quilting pattern of a mattress cover can have an effect on the firmness of the mattress (smaller/tighter quilting patterns are firmer than quilting patterns that are larger or looser or covers that aren’t quilted) but regardless of any other variables a topper on top of a mattress will act more independently and generally “feel” softer over a mattress than the same materials inside the same type of cover and fire barrier.

Phoenix

20

Thanks again Phoenix!

Ken