Thank you so much, Phoenix, for all the good info. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Hi Phoenix,
Well - I’m getting there hopefully. So much research. I’ve found three good sources in MontreaL
To recap: I’m looking for queen size mattress with a 2"-3" latex, gel or memory foam top and a high density foam base. All the options I’ve found interesting are in the $1000. range. I’m a side and stomach sleeper (with a slight sway back). I’m 5’10", 160 pounds.
The most comfortable mattress off the bat was at Literie Laurier: 2" of gel-infused memory foam from Domfoam International in Montreal on a petroleum-based 1832 density base. The use water-based (non-toxic) glue. I may be a victim of “showroom feel”. I worry about off-gassing.
I thought that I would love latex tops (natural product, no off-gassing), but I find all of them (Dunlop and Talalay, multiple ILDs) too bouncy. Like I’m resting on top of the mattress and not in it. When I lie on my side, my hips feel fine on most of the latex-topped mattresses, but my shoulders tend to feel squished or jammed up. I see that you suggested shredded latex. I’ll look into that.
At Matelas Selection, I tried a blue water gel foam (? from Italy, I believe) which the owner said is better than the gel-infused stuff. Not as comfortable for me (not memory foam). Water-based glue and a 6" EcoLogix 2.3 lb base (Oeko Tex Class 1, Hyg Cen biocell)
Matelas Excellence had a similar mattress: 2" water gel foam (not as comfortable for me - not memory foam) and a choice of EcoLogix high density bases (German) from 2.3 to 3 lbs.
Finally, I came across
This is interesting: http://www.nowtoronto.com/columns/ecoholic.cfm?content=167531
Don’t know if I’m getting there, after all.
Thanks!
Miko
I live nearby, so I’ll drop by Essentia tomorrow, just to see how the mattresses feel. Not that I have two grand plus to spend, but the trip might give me some insight into what I need. Hey! They got a sale on ($100. off). Maybe if they made natural MF top layers for a good price, I’d be interested.
BTW - I did a search of the forum, so I have at least some idea of the debate around the company 
Hi Miko,
Making “natural” memory foam is about as likely as a suitcase full of money falling into my lap 
Phoenix
Any other comments on the search? I’m leaning towards the gel-infused Domfoam International MF top layer (or shredded Talalay, if I can find it here). If I get the MF, I’ll try it with my organic cotton/wool topper.
Thanks.
Hi Miko,
It seems to me you are connecting with good manufacturers which is the most important part of your search. You are fortunate to have as many good options as you have.
This would seem to be in a reasonable budget range depending of course on the specifics of the mattresses.
It’s also possible that you need either a thicker comfort layer or softer latex. I don’t know the specifics of the mattresses you tested but I think that a lot of the latex mattresses in Quebec often use firmer latex (several manufacturers have told me that “firmer” is more popular there than softer which may be the opposite of what you need). Regardless of thickness or softness though … latex has a more “on the mattress” feel than memory foam which is more “in the mattress”.
The watergel foam is made by GommaGomma in Italy and is a gel polyfam (as opposed to a gel memory foam). Like all polyfoam it’s important to know the density of the material so you can make meaningful comparisons but it’s a good quality foam although as you know, “feel” is a subjective preference.
This is a “typical” online marketing article or “fluff” with some facts mixed in with lots of misinformation, partly true or misleading information, and “agenda”. It’s either an ad for Essentia or at best written by someone that didn’t do their homework and took everything they were told at face value.
I know you’ve read it but for the sake of those who haven’t the Essentia threads here and here have more information about Essentia but they stopped responding in the forum once they were asked more “pointed” questions or presented with information that contradicted their claims…
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I have a new idea…
I have a 1.5 inch wool topper from “Yes It’s Organic” which I quite like (double bed size).
Given my dissatisfaction with MF (comfy, but VOCs) and Latex (too bouncy, sleeping “on top of the bed”, not cradling enough for shoulders) - I’m now thinking of getting something like the Snuggle Mate and putting it on top of the high density foam base, to create my new queen size combo mattress!
So…
http://www.shepherdsdream.ca/product-info/mattress-mates/
Plus…
6" German-made"EcoLogix foam 2.3 lbs / cu ft density. Based on soybean oil, certified Oeko Tex Class 1 and Hyg Cen biocell. The open cell, channeled foam foundation structure has a comfort rating of 3 (compared with an index of 2 for the vast majority of conventional foams)."
I folded over my current wool topper on my current hard mattress to see how it would feel. Not bad. I could add this topper (even though it’s double size) underneath if I need a thicker wool comfort layer.
What do you think?
Miko
Hi Miko,
It would probably work well for your stomach sleeping but a wool topper over what I’m assuming is firm polyfoam (you didn’t mention the ILD) may be on the firm side for side sleeping … especially once the wool compresses.
I don’t know how your current wool topper folded over may compare to the Shepherds Dream wool topper you are considering and I also don’t know how your current hard mattress compares to the 6" polyfoam layer you are considering using under it so there is no way for me to know what your experience may be on the specific combination of materials you are looking at without more specific reference points. If you think your current mattress is somewhat comparable to the 6" polyfoam base layer (assuming you have tested it in person to compare them) then it may be worth trying the wool topper first on your current mattress without buying the polyfoam base layer to see how it feels.
If you do decide to go in this direction, I’d love to hear our feedback so instead of me telling you how it may feel … you can tell me how it feels based on your actual experience
I would be cautious when considering material combinations where you aren’t familiar with how the specific combination feels and performs for you and if you are in an “experimental” mode … then the return privileges of the topper may become an important consideration in case it doesn’t work as well as you hoped.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
The base layer comes in at least three ILD ratings that I know of. I’ll get the ILD info and try them all out.
Trying the wool topper on my current mattress is good advice. The Shepherd’s Dream website says they don’t accept returns on used merchandise. I’ll get clarification.
I’ll definitely let you know how it works out.
Thanks,
Michael
Hi Miko,
There are some sources for wool toppers in post #3 here that I have found to be very informative and helpful on the phone and I believe that at least some of them may have a good return policy.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
The plot thickens…
It seems that breathability is going to be an issue with the wool topper. Shepherd’s dream was not too enthusiastic about my idea of putting the 3" Snuggle Mate over a eco high density 6" foam base in a Murphy bed. I’ve consulted the Murphy bed seller (StilDesign) for ideas. I don’t actually have the bed yet. I’ve put down a 50% deposit - and the bed is still a good idea for my bedroom-office.
The bed has a very shallow steel frame, something like the attached photo, except queen size
Or this…
The bed’s one-piece foot swings up to hold the mattress in place when the bed is to be put away.
Shepherd’s Dream has a pricey insert which might work:
http://www.shepherdsdream.ca/product-info/custom-box-insert/
Or perhaps something from Ikea like you discuss here:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/ikea-sultan-laxeby-slatted-base
I can likely pick up one of those second hand (and assembled) for cheap.
What are BE outlets? Are they in Canada?
Then there’s still the question of buying a base layer. Shepherd’s Dream has these latex slats.
http://www.shepherdsdream.ca/product-info/latex-padded-slats/
I’d love to get a wool mattress (vs topper) but they’re expensive and may not stand up in a Murphy bed anyway (?).
Comfort wise, I prefer wool to the latex (any ILD). MF is comfy but too toxic.
Thanks,
Michael
Hi Miko,
I’m not sure why breathability would be an issue (wool is very breathable) but my bigger concerns would be trying a combination I wasn’t familiar with in terms of comfort (wool over polyfoam could become quite firm depending on the firmness of the polyfoam and the specifics of the topper) and on the topper “flopping around” as the bed was raised and lowered and possibly becoming damaged in the mechanism or shifting the wool over time. If I had a murphy bed (see post #64 here) I would probably tend towards a “finished mattress” that I had tested with a stiff base layer that would stand up to longer periods of time on edge where the risk of shifting or sagging layers was minimized and the manufacturer confirmed that it would work well inside the murphy bed.
The ideal would be that the murphy bed was suitable for supporting a mattress by itself without a foundation at all but if it isn’t (I can’t see the details of the support surface on your murphy bed) then you would need a foundation as well. If you do need a foundation I would tend to use a low profile foundation because you are limited to 11" in height and you won’t need a foundation with the narrower gaps that would be necessary for a mattress with a latex base. A base with flexible slats or tension adjustable slats (like the Laxeby) could either help or detract from the feel and performance of your mattress depending on the thickness of the mattress and on the specifics of the combination. Your highest odds are to test a mattress that works well on a firm non flexing foundation and then to use something similar under the mattress (either the murphy bed itself or a foundation if it needs one) so you don’t have another variable to try and “match” the characteristics of a flexible base that you haven’t tested in combination with the mattress.
BE is Berkeley Ergonomics and at this point they don’t have any retailers in Canada. NOTE ADDED: they are now available at Calgary, Edmonton & Sherwood Park Mattress Stores | Mattress & Sleep Co. who are one of the members of this site and will ship across the country.
Overall I would tend to focus on a mattress that I was familiar with the combination of materials (through personal testing or at least using similar material combinations to those I had tested) and didn’t have a tendency to shift or sag.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
Happy Fourth of July!
Your advice on getting a “finished” mattress for my Murphy bed sounds sensible. As discussed, my maximum height is 11". I may reconsider an inner spring/coil core (vs. polyfoam). I’m not sure why I went to semi eco-friendly polyfoam core in the first place.
To recap on top layers, I love the feel of gel-infused memory foam, but I’m concerned about VOCs. Latex (any ILD) is not working for me (too bouncy, “resting on top of the bed” feel). I like wool a lot based on my experience with my 1.5 inch topper, though I take your point about compression.
The top layers (especially jammed/squished shoulders) seems to be my main problem - though I know all the layers work in concert.
This is a bit extreme, but I came across Black Sheep Mattress co. (Calgary) on the internet and spoke to the owner (Christian)
Very knowledgeable and impressive. All natural materials, custom made mattresses. Christian spoke to me about creating a hybrid Devon/Suffolk (see website) in my price range: Top side (soft), bottom side (firm). He spoke about creating a memory foam feel (approximately) with natural materials. He uses high quality springs as the core.
I presumed that the shipping cost to Montreal would be prohibitive (thousands of kilometers), but apparently he’s done it before and shipping would cost me a about $140. - so not that bad.
The big downside is not being able to try the mattress, though if it’s a bit firm and well below my mattress height limit, I could add … a topper!
BTW - Shepherd’s Dream says they would take back a Snugglemate (3" wool topper) if it’s in mint condition - but (as we know) a topper goes against the “finished mattress” idea.
And so it goes…
Got to pull the trigger soon - I’m losing sleep!
Miko (a.k.a. Michael)
Hi Miko,
I think that polyfoam is less ecofriendly than recycled steel so from that perspective there would be little reason to choose polyfoam.
The real challenge is not so much knowing how a single material works for you but how a combination of materials feels and performs.
For most people, VOC’s with polyfoam or memory foam are not a significant issue if it’s made in North America or is CeriPur certified but for a smaller percentage of the population who are more sensitive, who purchase a mattress with “faulty” foam, or who for other reasons have come to believe that any type of polyurethane materials are “bad” or “toxic” (memory foam, polyfoam, gel memory foam) regardless of where it is made or any certification then of course they would need to look in other directions. It really depends on how each person answers the question “how safe is safe enough for me?” or “what is the degree or risk I am comfortable with?”. This can lead down a rabbit hole of conflicting, incomplete, and very complex information that in many cases is talking about parts per billion of dozens of chemicals with hundreds or variations that may each need to be researched individually to decide on the level of exposure to each that you are comfortable with or which set of numbers (content amounts, VOC amounts, and limits of exposure that different “authorities” consider to be “safe”) you decide is most believable because in most cases VOC’s and chemical exposures are more about how much you are exposed to from many sources than about eliminating them completely. This can often require a degree in chemistry to really understand to the level where it becomes meaningful or fully relevant.
This is a typical issue for side sleeping men especially where the broader lighter shoulders (compared to the pelvis) need to be “allowed” sink into the top materials enough to relieve pressure and allow for good upper body alignment while at the same time “stopping” the heavier pelvis from sinking down too far. In more difficult circumstances (more athletic builds) then zoning can make a difference where there are different degrees of firmness under each area of the body.
They certainly would be a fair value choice and they do use high quality materials with no “weak links” although they are a little on the costly side (Bonnell coils are typically good quality and strong but among the least costly types of innersprings while natural fibers and latex are more costly materials). The challenge here would be choosing the design that would match your needs and preferences and with all online purchases that you can’t test in person, then the recourse you have if you make a mistake may be an important part of your personal value equation. Some people equate the “feel” of a wool topper to memory foam and in many cases a wool topper can reduce the springiness of latex and creates a “combination” of the feel of both materials.
A topper is always a good backup option if you choose a mattress that is too firm but of course choosing a suitable topper without trying the combination first can be almost as challenging as choosing a mattress and it’s usually “safer” to work towards an initial combination where there is only one choice involved rather than “going in” with the idea of adding a topper. Of course a topper with a Murphy bed has its own risks although a mattress protector with fitted corners may work to keep it in place.
I think if you don’t have the chance to test a mattress in person then your confidence that you are making the most suitable choice (based on personal testing on similar mattress and more detailed discussions with the manufacturer) will play a key role in your decision along with the customization, exchange, or return options you have available after a purchase if your choice isn’t as close to your ideal as you hoped.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
Well - the deed is done.
I went with a mattress from Stéphane at Matelas Selection in Montreal, basically because I could try the various layers out in person here. If I lived in Calgary, I’d be at Black Sheep’s door.
The details…
Base: I went with a 5 inch 2.7 per cu. ft. density “eco-foam” which has one channeled side and one solid side. They are going to “zone” it for me, putting the channeled (more flexible) side up for the shoulders (and feet) and the solid side up for my pelvis area. I can flip it (head to foot) now and then to reduce wear on the shoulder end. This allows my shoulders to sink in a bit more.
It looks quite eco-friendly (as foams go)
http://www.eupen.com/foam/certificates/index.html
I may have preferred springs (for eco-reasons). He did have a 7.5 pocket spring base, but this would reduce my top layer options (my Murphy bed limit is 11"). It also felt quite a bit harder than the foam base.
The top layer is 2" of soft Talalay latex (not sure what the ILD is).
I tried the combination with my (double size) 1.5" wool topper as is and folded over (to create a 3" topper) and it felt quite good. I may get the 3" queen size Snuggle Mate, if I find I need it.
There is also the option of adding another comfort layer later on, if I need it. I almost went with a 1" layer of 4.25 per cu. ft. blue open-cell Italian gel above the latex, but I thought I would try it as is (when it doubt, go a bit firm…).
The base, latex layer and wool/cotton cover cost me $964. CDN. before taxes. There is good exchange policy.
Finding the mattress took a lot longer than I expected it would, but I feel reasonably sure I’m in the ballpark comfort and eco-wise.
I really appreciate the time you took with my situation, Phoenix. So much good information. I’ll update you, if I make any changes.
Best Wishes,
Miko (a.k.a. Michael)
Hi Miko (Michael),
I like the idea of having a softer shoulder zone and it’s also very uncommon to see a high quality polyfoam that is also Oeko-Tex certified which is generally a step above CertiPur certification.
It sounds to me like you made a great choice in terms of materials, design, quality, and value and you also have good options if you need them.
I appreciate your feedback on the forum … it will be valuable for others that are in your area.
Most of all … Congratulations on your new mattress
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I thought I was done, but no such luck. Luckily, I have exchange options.
My custom foam mattress (5" high density eco-foam, 2" latex + my 1.5" wool topper) kept buckling and slipping over the 3" steel Murphy bed frame. The pelvic area sagged some and I was perspiring greatly in the head and shoulders area, probably because my shoulders were happily sinking into the latex.
The seller gave me two options:
Glue a 1" layer of firm foam on the bottom of my existing foam composite mattress. This would bring my mattress height to 9 1/2". My maximum mattress height for the Murphy bed is 11". I’m still worried about the heat and I have my doubts that this altered mattress would stay in the frame. From another seller:
My second (probably preferred) option is to go with a spring mattress (see below). I’m hoping that it will breathe more. I could still use my wool topper.
Any advice?
Thanks (again),
Michael
Translated from the Matelas Selection website:
http://www.matelasselection.com/detail.php?code=MENS-3975
Supreme collection pocket spring
Queen 60x80
warranty: 15 years
Pocket spring foam mattress
Product Description:
High quality at low prices. This proven product combines the best spring individually bagged and high density foam.
- The best gauge pocket springs (682 springs);
- Additional double side on the entire circumference of the pocket coil reinforcements;
- 2 felted thermoset insulation to prevent wear and provide more comfort;
- Two generous layers of high density foam, low compression (soft) for an area of soft sleep surface;
- A silky natural bamboo Nature Proof of first quality ventilated padded fiber and foam to minimize permanent deformation after intensive use and comfort.
This mattress is designed to absorb and damp movements and to prevent transfer of the waves caused by movements of a user. A central area, the pelvis is also enhanced with larger springs and resistant to better withstand the heaviest area of the body, or the pelvis.
height: 9"
Firmness: From semi-soft extra-firm with good flexibility
Hi Miko,
I have no direct experience with Murphy beds so I would not be the best source of advice.
In cases like this … my “best advice” is to encourage you to talk with several people who are more knowledgeable about Murphy beds which are usually the manufacturers who make them and talk to them about the specifics of your situation. While many mattress manufacturers would have some experience with Murphy beds … all Murphy bed manufacturers would have a great deal of experience with how different mattresses perform on their beds. This is what I did in post #64 here as an example because in areas where I have little specific knowledge I always talk to people who are more knowledgeable than I am.
You will find some conflicting advice and opinions even when you talk with “experts” who have different experiences but when you do this you will also find some consistent “themes” which will help you make more informed “best judgement” decisions.
Logic says to me that an innerspring mattress is stiffer and less floppy than a mattress that has a foam core and would probably do better on a Murphy bed than a more “floppy” mattress.
I can see from your comments that you’ve probably read this but for the benefit of others that read this post #2 here talks in more detail about the many interacting factors that in combination can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress for those who are looking to “cool down” their mattress.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
The consensus is in - and it seems that sprongs (that’s springs - I hope there are no sprongs) are the best option for Murphy beds, so I’ll go with that. And the spring mattress in question seems to have built in zoning (longer springs under hips area).
“Post # 2 here” says I don’t have access …
Hi Miko,
That makes perfect and logical sense to me
Oops … the link I posted had an extra space in it for some reason so I’ve corrected it … thanks.
Phoenix