The protector I used is 100% Tencel on top only stretchable on the side. The fitted sheet I used is 400TC 100% cotton l. I am not quite ready to give up having wool on top. I think would work better if I had a quilted wool cotton cover that is stretchable. The one I have now is Damask fabric which is pretty stiff.
I have tried at a local store a 19ILD mattress similar height all Talalay latex mattress with knitted cotton and wool on top felt pretty good. I liked it except for the price. Now I have dilemma whether to change my current cover to sleepEZ stretchable cotton cover (no quilting) or go to a whole different mattress. Decision, decision…
Another option might be the St. Dormeir wool mattress protector.
I just ordered this, so I probably won’t have it for a couple of weeks yet, but it is very stretchy on the sides, and a little bit stretchy in one direction (probably head-to-foot) on the top.
It’s a bit expensive, though, and is not returnable, so you might want to ask for a fabric sample if you’re interested in the product. Sandra, the owner of Laughlin Designs, is very helpful. (There are other distributors, too. Flobeds sells the St. Dormeir, at flobeds.com, and there are Canadian distributors. I don’t know where you are.)
I think the Dormeir (as Catherine suggested) and the Natura deluxe wool quilted protectors are probably among the best values available for a wool quilted mattress pad. They both have thinner layers of wool and are both fairly stretchy and washable but the main difference is that the Natura has a breathable/waterproof membrane while the Dormeir doesn’t. The sides of the Dormeir are also probably stretchier because the membrane on the Natura is on the sides as well. Natura has other versions without the membrane but the wool is much thicker.
Wool is naturally water resistant so both resist spills but the membrane will make the Natura more waterproof but less breathable and adds a thin layer that is a little less stretchy. The Natura has 6 oz of wool/yd while the Dormeir has I believe slightly more (they are emailing me back to confirm the exact amount). I purchased the Natura when it was on sale at Costco over a year ago but I can definitely say that it has compressed under where I sleep a year later and is firmer than the parts I don’t sleep on. The main reason we chose this over the Dormeir was because we like to watch a movie and have a glass of wine or tea in bed and DH wanted “waterproof” rather than “water resistant”. In retrospect … probably would have chosen the Dormeir because of the stretchier sides and greater breathability and probably not needing “waterproof”.
Either way though … I think it adds options to a mattress choice to add any wool to a mattress as a mattress pad rather than as part of the ticking. Everything is a tradeoff though :).
Thanks Phoenix and Catherine for the great advices. Doing the wool protector might be a good solution, but I am still a bit apprehensive about spending more money on top of the money I already spent for a new mattress that is not perfect. It’s almost like bought brand new car and immediately buy new seat cushions because the seats are uncomfortable. I don’t know what I gonna do yet. I guess I will sleep on the decision for a few nights.
I have tried to sleep with wool quilted cover on top but fully unzipped. I have slept all night. Woke at 8, a little earlier than I would like for the weekend, but hey, still pretty good getting a full night sleep. The last two nights I slept without wool, I woke up a few times during the night. I didn’t wake up in sweat or anything, so I wasn’t sure the heat was the issue. I will try one more night with unzipped cover just to be sure.
On your quest for the perfect pillow. I have been a fan of memory foam pillow of course after the smell went away. The latex pillow came with my mattress I know immediately it wasn’t gonna work because it’s high profile. Like you, I probably will just use them for back pillows. I had my Samsclub memory foam pillow for 6-7 years and still comfortable, so I will stick with it for a while.
I saw this BioSense Pillow at Brookstone recently thought was a interesting concept. It’s a hybrid ventilated memory foam core and “Better than Down” around the core. BioSense™ memory foam claim it is made with green tea, charcoal and seed oil, I cannot tell you it’s all natural. If you have a Brookstone in your local mall, might wanna check it out. I don’t think I will be buying any pillow with actually checking it out in person. Phoenix, I know you have your heart set on the latex pillow, please let me how that goes.
Thanks, britanyy. There is a Brookstone store in my area, so the next time I’m out in that direction, I’ll check out the BioSense pillow.
I’m also considering a shredded latex pillow with a wool & cotton cover. Natura makes one, and a different manufacturer sells one called Nu-Lex Optimum pillow, which is adjustable. (Has a zippered cover so you can add or remove shredded latex.)
Or I could just hand-shred one of the soft latex pillows that I already have, and buy some wool batting to sew into a cotton pillowcase, but right now, I’m still finding other uses for those soft pillows, so I’m not sure I want to shred one.
I understand the apprehension about spending more money after already spending a bunch. I’ve spent quite a bit more than I wanted to, but getting good sleep is really important. Still, I hope I’m about done with the spending now (after one more pillow, maybe).
My extra inch of super-soft Talalay latex arrived today, so that’s on the bed now, with the other stuff. So now there are 3" of 14-17 ILD Talalay, over 1" of 24 ILD, over 1" of N3 (25-29 ILD), on top of my minimalist, very firm innerspring. (Before I put all the toppers back on, I flipped the mattress, 'cause I had not done that in quite a while.)
The top 3" of latex are encased in that stretchy terrycloth cover from FoamByMail. The bottom 2" are in a cotton, zipped topper cover from LL Bean (only $35 for full size, and it’s gusseted and made for a 3" topper, so there’s plenty of room in there).
The bed does feel cushy. I suspect that I will still wind up needing to cut some of this latex up and rearrange it for zoning, to prevent my hips from sinking in too far (which they still seem to be doing). But we’ll see. I’ll try this arrangement the way it is for a while, first.
(It also occurred to me that maybe I could put a piece of carpet pad or something like that between the top & bottom topper layers, and just under my hips, to slow the hip-sinking.)
Still waiting for the St. Dormeir wool mattress protector. In the meantime, I’ll use my old poly-cotton mattress cover.
Bought a cheap, but apparently well-made, shredded-latex pillow from Pillowflex.com. (Great deal, really.) Kinda like it. Might wind up opening up an end seam and removing some of the shredded stuff to soften the pillow and bring down the loft a little, but I’m not sure about that yet. Still trying it out as is for now.
Now that you have your last inch of “soft stuff” I suspect that your effective comfort layer may also be too thick to provide the best alignment so it is likely that you will need to remove some of it (or of course zone it). I would probably tend to remove the 24 and see how that went and then think about zoning.
The carpet pad idea is a good one but whether I put it in between layers or under the topper layers would depend on my pressure relief experience. An inch or even half an inch of firmer material can make a big difference but may cause pressure issues directly under the 3" depending on the material used.
I’ve had a chance to try the Malouf pillow for a few hours although DH has still not “lent” it to me for a full night
It has a very nice velour cover and it’s easy to see the larger pincores in the middle of it and the smaller ones on the outside (all around) although by feel alone the zoning isn’t obvious. It has a very slight rubbery smell but not unpleasant.
It is very soft but keeps both of our heads in very good alignment on our sides and back. There’s no sense of our heads being held up too high and I’m glad we got the hi loft plush rather than the firm.They say that its more for back and stomach sleepers but that made no sense to me and with a soft mattress it seems to be much more appropriate for side/back sleepers.
The previous pillows we had were/are feathers. On pressing them down, they come back slowly much like memory foam although over the course of the night they compress more than memory foam. The latex springs right back.
It’s interesting to test the differences in pillows while lying on your back and moving your head from side to side as that’s where you can really tell the difference in materials. Memory foam holds your head more rigid. Feathers allow easier movement and they don’t really help or hinder it. Latex clearly “helps” your side to side head movement. Whether this is good or not would depend on preference but it’s “different” for people who are used to either having their head held in place or using a pillow that is more movement neutral.
The latex is slightly warmer than the feathers as well but not as warm as memory foam.
DH loves it and if I ever get a chance to spend the night with it I’ll report on that as well
I’ll keep that in mind. Might try flipping the 24 & N3 pieces first, so that the N3 is on top of the 24. (They’re already enclosed in that cotton thing; I’m tired of wrestling with sheets of latex; and I don’t have anywhere convenient to put the 24 ILD piece if it’s not on the bed.)
I was thinking of something much thinner than that – maybe 1/4 or 1/8 of an inch of something firm-ish. Nothing thick (or expensive). Still tossing around ideas.
I’d love to avoid cutting any of the latex, but I will do it if I have to zone for proper alignment. However, I won’t mess with that until after I have the St. Dormeir wool protector and can see how that affects the feel of the bed.
My old cotton/poly mattress pad is making things worse; it can’t accommodate the point elasticity of the soft latex, so I wake up with lower back pain. So once again, that pad is coming off the bed. (Maybe I should just put that under my hips, under the soft toppers. Worth a try, I guess.)
It may also be well worth trying just the 3" of soft stuff on top (without the other 2" at all for a night or two) as it may be thick enough and if its not … the feedback (how much of the underlying mattress you felt over time and when you changed positions) would be helpful. My “concern” with the 24 in the mix is that it would function more as a comfort layer and no matter where it was it may allow the hips to sink down too far. The feedback would also likely be more “valuable” than the lower topper reversed. You would have a more “pure” differential construction and it would say a lot about the layer thickness you needed.
It’s not thick enough. I just tried a brief experiment and it was immediately quite uncomfortable for my bony shoulders. They felt crunched again; I bottom out on the 3" of soft stuff when that layer is directly on the mattress, which has almost no padding of its own. So my shoulders definitely need the cushioning from the other latex layers.
Yesterday I flipped the bottom set of latex (so N3 is on top of the 24 ILD, but under the soft stuff) and slept OK. Well, except for being cold, but that just means it’s time to get out the warmer blankets. I will probably leave this setup alone for a while, while waiting for the St. Dormeir pad to arrive.
That’s great feedback! Over on the other forum when I was helping a few people to re-arrange their mattress layers or decide what to add to the mix I would sometimes have them put their comfort layers on the floor as the degree to which they felt the floor helped “point to” the comfort layer thickness that was suitable and also helped in some cases to “identify” some unknown latex they were using (usually from FBM) that was underneath it. I had some rather interesting feedback at times
In your case … it has done both as well. It’s clear that the mattress itself doesn’t have “transition” qualities so a transition layer under the soft latex is needed. Flipping your lower topper so the N3 is up is also a far better choice as the 24 under it will be slightly compressed with the weight over it and “act” a little firmer and the 29 will tend to “dominate” it.
Bottom line is that I would also do exactly what you are doing and wait for any more alterations until the dormeir is over your current setup and you’ve had a chance to test this out for a while. I think you’re pretty close.
Picking up where we left off:
While waiting for the St. Dormeir to arrive, I used an old fiber-bed thingie as a mattress pad. I think it was actually sold as an extra-thick mattress pad; was about an inch thick originally but has compressed over time. (Definitely got my money’s worth from it.)
That was cushy for the shoulders, but my hips were sinking in too far, so I was waking up with low-back pain. I found a good solution to slow the hip-sinking: a 5mm thick yoga mat. (They’re available in 3mm mats, too.) It’s 24" by 68" and I got it for about $13 at a discount store.
The yoga mat is laid (lengthwise) across the bed, in the hips-and-knees area. It’s between the top set of latex toppers (the 3" of soft stuff) and the bottom set (the 2" of medium stuff). Because the mat is longer than the bed is wide, I folded the mat under the bottom set of latex toppers, so it’s essentially doubled up under me. Doesn’t show when the bed is made.
That setup worked pretty well. Not perfectly, but enough to significantly diminish the low-back pain.
The St. Dormeir pad arrived 2 days ago, and I put it on the bed last night (took off the fiber-bed pad). It’s very nice, not thick, and pretty stretchy, so I don’t think it changes the feel of the latex toppers. (The cotton sheet stretched over it might firm things up too much, though.)
Wow, that wool pad is toasty.
Sorry to say, I did not sleep well. I woke up several times during the night – maybe because of being so warm and because of finding various limbs to be numb or tingly.
So apparently my alignment is off again, and I’m too sore to be able to tell in which direction my spine got misaligned. My lower arm (side sleeper, remember) kept falling asleep, and that was quite bothersome.
So… I’m not sure if I just need to adjust to the new setup and/or use a different pillow now, or if I should put the fiber-bed thingie back on, under the wool pad. (The idea was to stop using the fiber-bed when I got the wool pad, but I’ll use whatever keeps my shoulders & arms comfy and keeps my spine aligned.) Maybe I should just train myself to sleep on my back.
By the end of this you may have a new career in designing mattresses with all the knowledge you are gaining about layering different materials
Your yoga mat is a really creative solution and I would think “in the right direction” but with something like this where you put it can be critical. It is sometimes really surprising how much difference even a thin layer inside the mattress can make. For example … just adding a denser and firmer insulator pad over an innerspring with layers of foam over it can make a major difference in the feel and characteristics of a mattress.
It’s somewhat surprising that you found the wool topper so warm … and its possible that part of this could be the yoga mat under the topper (especially doubled up) as it probably isn’t as breathable as the latex itself (probably denser rubber). This in combination with being closer to the latex with the new Dormeir could cause the heat issue although I would confirm this with another night or two of sleeping experience experience.
Your symptoms of being numb and tingly and your lower arm falling asleep are symptoms of poor circulation and pressure relief issues rather than alignment issues. The combination of the yoga mat under your top 3" (very firm) and the Dormeir (which would slightly reduce the pressure relieving abilities of the soft latex) have “isolated” your top 3" of latex and “removed” the transition layer underneath it. I believe your “critical zone” is slightly over 3" and by putting the yoga mat under the top 3" you have in effect removed the pressure relieving qualities of the topper underneath it. The lower topper would still compress however and by isolating it from the comfort layer it could now also cause alignment issues. In other words … it may have created a comfort layer which is too thin (for your shape) and a support layer (the bottom 2" topper) which is too soft.
When you have a firm thin layer over a softer layer … it will dominate the softer layer below it in terms of pressure relief but it won’t stop the lower layer from compressing which can still lead to alignment issues. This is part of the reason why its so difficult to “fix” a mattress that is too soft by putting firmer layers over it. Adding firm over soft doesn’t “remove” the effect of the soft … but it does change how it interacts.
So overall … I am guessing that the yoga mat may need to be lower in the mattress and have less softer material underneath it.
I just put it in the easiest place to start with. The top 3" of latex are encased in the FBM stretchy terrycloth cover, and the bottom 2" are encased in an LL Bean thin cotton cover. So, putting the mat between those, and folding the extra section of mat below the bottom-most toppers, was the simplest starting point.
That location seemed to work pretty well when I had the fiber-bed on top of everything, but might not work as well without it. Removing it changes all sorts of things. (I’m not averse to using it again, but I already have a 15" deep mattress now – innerspring + toppers – so it’d be nice to not keep edging upward there.)
Yes, probably so. I neglected to mention that my back felt “tweaked,” too; hence the suspicions about misalignment.
Only for the area under my hips, though. In case I wasn’t clear before: The yoga mat is laid across the bed (from side to side), and the mat is only 24" wide, so it’s just the area under my hips & knees that is somewhat isolated as you describe.
Hips still have 3" of soft latex to sink into; shoulders still have all 5" of latex to sink into. They just don’t have the fiber-bed thingie for that extra bit of cushion.
I’m experimenting with the full-length yoga mat (laid across the bed and folded under on my side) before deciding whether to cut the extra part off. If I decide not to use the mat at all in this setup, I want the full length of it for my attempts to use foam-rolling to get trigger points worked out.
Understood. I’ve been going for the easiest experiments first, because cutting up the latex for zoning is the last resort.
I’d forgotten that I had reversed the order of the N3 and 24 ILD pieces on the bottom. It’s possible that the shoulders need that order reversed now.
Could be.
I’ll have to check on what order those bottom two pieces are in; that might determine what the next experiment is.
(I wonder if I’m setting some sort of record for making and un-making the bed a gazillion times in the past 2 months. )
A couple of other “relatively easy” options that may help (and which I’m sure you would try anyway) are …
The folded yoga mat under both toppers. This would give you about .4" under your hips which may help hold them up a little higher (although its a little thin even doubled). This wouldn’t isolate the upper layers quite as much (better pressure relief under the hips if its needed) while it would still help with alignment.
The last configuration you mentioned was the bottom topper with the N3 up (and the 24 ILD under). I realize that its a major pain to alter the lower layer (because they’re in one cover) but it seems to me that the 24 may be working against you no matter where it may be. With a “yoga mat zoned approach” however, it may well be worth trying the 24 up (to allow your shoulders to sink in more) as you mentioned but “dominate” it with the yoga mat in the hip area.
I did read that you had the yoga mat in the middle under the hips and knees but for some reason I “added it back” in my mind into the shoulder area in my pressure relief reply. Brain burp :). Because the symptoms you are experiencing are related to pressure relief … then the reason for the reduction here could only have been the Dormeir exchange which affected the ability of the soft latex on top to form itself to your shape (and reduced the “cush” of the fiberpad). This may have been just enough of a reduction to cause the pressure issues in your shoulders. The “back tweaking” issue could also be a pointer depending on what part of the back you felt this.
I’m not sure if you are in “record” territory yet (there was a few really long testing and adjustment threads in the other forum) but you’re certainly up there.
Your feedback is really good and “well thought out” … and it’s really fun to work with you … maybe partly because you get to do all the “work” and I just have to provide “possibility” feedback :).
Thanks again for your really valuable contributions as I think it can really help many others understand how seemingly minor changes can make a big difference.
I will keep that in mind. I think my hips are happy with the 3" of soft latex, but that could change, or some other factor might require a different placement of the yoga mat.
I un-made the bed again yesterday so I could flip that bottom set of toppers, putting the N3 back on the bottom and the 24 ILD piece on top of that. (Put the yoga mat back in the same place, and then the top 3" of latex and the St. Dormeir protector & sheets.)
I think that helped the shoulders & arms. I didn’t wake up with numb or tingly arms last night or this morning.
That was half of last night’s bedding-layers experiment. The other half was that I put a small, thin (something like 15" x 17" x 1"), soft piece of poly foam – which I already had – under my torso. (Under the bottom sheet, actually, in the torso area.) And I fiddled with pillows to get my head a little higher than it was the night before. Those changes seemed to help with the alignment issues.
I don’t want to leave that small piece of foam there, 'cause it looks pretty goofy when the bed is made, but it’s given me an idea for something else to try. I have extra polyfill left over from making myself a body pillow. (I wanted to try one that is shorter and thinner than the ones sold in stores, so I bought a cheap king-size pillowcase, hand-sewed the side of it to make it narrower, and stuffed it with polyfill, also very cheap. Works pretty well.) I might try making myself a very soft, flat “torso pillow.” I think it would stay in place and conform to me better than something like a rolled-up or folded towel would.
If that turns out to be too goofy or inconvenient, I can always put the fiber-bed back on, and then move the yoga mat around until it’s between the right layers to prevent the hips from sinking in too far. (That’s probably the simplest thing to do, but I’m geeky enough to want to do another small experiment.) (Maybe. We’ll see… I might be fickle and just put the fiber-bed back on.)
My main conclusion from all these experiments is that even really soft (14 ILD) latex, when it’s solid, does not conform quite enough for someone like me – i.e., side-sleeper with a pronounced hourglass shape. It comes very close – and the St. Dormeir wool protector is stretchy enough that it doesn’t interfere much (if at all) with the latex – but it’s not quite enough. The soft latex makes more of a dip rather than creating a body-conforming cradle.
If I had more padding in the middle of me, I think I’d be all set with the soft latex as the comfort layer. But having the hourglass shape (roughly a 10" difference between my waist and hip measurements) complicates things.
I’m not buying anything else at this point, but for me, I think the ideal comfort layer would be shredded latex enclosed in a cover with lots of small baffles to prevent the latex from shifting. Flobeds sells a shredded-latex topper, but its baffles are long rows, rather than lots of small squares. The squares need to be small enough, and have enough latex shreds in them, to prevent craters from forming. (There’s a business opportunity for someone in that. The only problem is that what I have in mind would be labor-intensive and therefore expensive to make.)
A corollary to that conclusion is that I probably could have spent much less money, and been more comfortable much sooner, if I’d taken my Oodles (latex noodles) topper – which I tried 2 years ago – to a tailor or seamstress and shelled out the dough to have it remade to my specs.
Sigh.
By the way, I took the extra blanket off the bed last night and did not get overheated from the wool protector – much more comfortable.
Well, thanks. I appreciate your suggestions & feedback, and all the info you provide.
This and some of your other feedback seems to confirm that your “critical zone” seems to be more than 3". What this means is that the comfort layer under your shoulders needs to be effectively a little thicker than a “standard” 3" thickness. Of course there are 2 problems with this as you have recognized. The first is that what is “soft” and allows the shoulders to sink in far enough (and fills in the lumbar gap) for someone of greater weight is usually not soft enough for a lower body weight. What most people would call soft (say around 24 ILD) would be soft for your hips and let them sink in enough to relieve pressure but not soft enough for your shoulders. This is the reason for the need for lower ILD’s with lighter curvier profiles.
The second issue here is that if the thickness and softness under the shoulders is enough in a single layer it may well be too thick and soft for the hips which would then sink in too far. In a case like this (without zoning) … the construction method would be to build the layers thick and soft enough for the shoulders … and then immediately under this put much firmer layers to stop the hips. Since the hips will always be heavier … how far they sink in needs to be “stopped” while the shoulders need to be “allowed”. Of course the pillow makes a difference in shoulder issues as well.
So the trick is to make the comfort layers soft enough and “just” thick enough for the shoulders. Even an inch too much will still be OK for the shoulders but usually the hips will tend to sink in too much.
If you have wool over the comfort layers … even thin wool like the Dormier … or a fiber pad … it will “surround the shoulders” and increase their surface area which means that the same weight will be more spread out and not sink in as far into the mattress (same shoulder weight spread out over more surface area). As the pads compact, the extra feeling of softness they provide is reduced but their effect on reducing how far your shoulders sink in remains. Since the hips are heavier anyway and tend to sink in further (into the layers under the comfort layers) in spite of their larger surface area, the wool or fiberpad has less of an effect on the hips than on the shoulders. What this means is that a thicker mattress pad or quilting that is not as resilient or point elastic as foam will in effect make your comfort layer act as if it is slightly thinner and firmer under the shoulder area.
So if I was to go with the best “theoretical” design in your case … it would be 3" of soft latex over a 1" transition layer over the mattress itself. The extra inch of 24 would be fine for your shoulders but could create sinking issues under your hips. The transition layer being slightly firmer and more elastic (natural latex) would still allow the shoulders to sink in just that little extra over just a 3" layer but would also begin the process of “stopping the hips” which would be fully stopped at the level of the underlying mattress without a sudden transition.
Adding the zoning of the yoga mat (which doubled is 10 mm or “point 4” (not 4) inches thick would raise the hips up by this small amount but also begin the process of stopping them sooner. Based on your feedback so far and in a perfect world (where theory actually works better than real life :)), I would put the doubled yoga mat under the 3" of soft latex with the N3 alone under this. This extra height under the hips in addition to the increased firmness and without the 24 layer compressing under the yoga mat would likely be ideal with the materials you have. I know this isn’t possible both because of the hassle and because the topper cover fits both the 24 and N3 together but I’m going for a theoretical “ideal” with the materials you have.
Of course one other more “drastic” option would be to put the 1" of 24 in the upper third (or so) of the mattress and the N3 in the lower 2/3 where your 4th inch would have a very slight zoning. The yoga mat under the hips with this could increase the firmness differential in the zones (and the height as well) and this may work out even more “perfectly”. If you were to go through the customization process at Custom Sleep Design for example … you would likely be amazed at the difference in ILD they use in the upper third and the lower 2/3 of their zoned approach. In this case you would have a 5" comfort/transition layer but all 5" would have a shoulder/hip ILD differential that was much wider than “normal” zoning
Like you though … I probably wouldn’t go with cutting latex until I had exhausted the reasonable options available without.
Putting the folded or rolled towel under the lumbar (if that’s what you mean) would be like reverse zoning which can certainly help with mid lumbar support but if the layers under the hips are still too soft … it could lead to lower lumbar issues as the mid lumbar would be “held up” while the hips would still tend to sink in. This would only be the best choice for those with a heavier midsection or who were very light and did not sink far enough into their mattress (there was a gap under the lumbar area that you could slide your hand under). Putting a torso pillow under the torso (but not the shoulders) would certainly take pressure off the shoulders by putting more weight on the torso but it would also raise the torso up higher and quite possible cause the relative alignment between hips and torso to be slightly worse. If anything you would want to raise your hips rather than your torso … particularly if the shoulder pressure relief was enough (which it appears that the 24 right under the 3" of soft latex does).
One of the things that I always find helpful is to think in terms of “everything I do has two effects” rather than just the one I am trying to adjust. This way when I am thinking in terms of helping one area of the body … it reminds me to think about what else it may do as well. For example while wool or a fiberbed on top seems to add softness … it can also lessen pressure relief. Another example is because the hips are used to bearing more weight, a layering scheme that has enough pressure relief for the shoulders will often have “excess” pressure relief for the hips (they can comfortably bear more weight for that person) so reducing pressure relief under the hips by adding firmness there will often make little difference for the hips but allow for a softer foam that can make a significant difference for the shoulders. The key is always in finding ways to “redistribute weight” within the pressure tolerances of each area of the body while at the same time “allowing or preventing” the sinking down of each part to keep the body in alignment.
As a final thought … your situation can also an argument for a thin layer of memory foam in the mix of “tradeoffs” as this can often be used for fine tuning as well. Memory foam displaces under pressure more than latex and rather than effectively adding surface area to a particular body part as it sinks deeper into the mattress … it “moves out of the way” more so that the layers below it are compressed with less surface area and can sink deeper than if they are “surrounded” by a layer that doesn’t displace as much (such as a fiber bed or wool or even latex). There is a phenomenon connected to point elasticity that creates an inverted cone shape in terms of the relative surface area of the lower layers that compress for each smaller surface area that compresses above it. This cone is narrower with memory foam than with latex which is part of the reason that you sink deeper into memory foam and the layers below it than with other materials.
I know that this can all get quite complex, and that theory is always trumped by experience which is much “simpler”, but since you mentioned you may be “just geeky enough” to experiment, I thought I’d reply in kind because sometimes that same geeky part in me loves to theorize as well :).
Another possibility for zoning is to put more of the 14 ILD latex under the shoulders (by cutting up and doubling over the 1" piece of 14 ILD – since that top 3" of latex is made of a 2" piece and a 1" piece) and put the 24 ILD (doubled over) under the hips.
So the head-shoulders-and-maybe-torso area of the bed would be: 2" of 14 ILD (solid piece), 2" of 14 ILD (the 1" piece, cut up and doubled), and 1" of N3. And the hips-to-feet area would be 2" of 14 ILD (the solid piece), 2" of 24 ILD (the 1" piece, cut up and doubled), and 1" of N3. (This scheme would be easier to convey with a diagram, but I’m too lazy to draw one and upload it.)
Yeah, I’d rather cut a $13 yoga mat in half, to make it easier to move between layers, than cut into a couple hundred dollars’ worth of latex and worry about cutting in the wrong spot and messing up the zoning. If I can get the same zoning effect by monkeying with the yoga mat, that’s preferable.
I can slide a hand under my lumbar area, even when the spinal alignment is pretty good, because the latex just doesn’t conform enough. That’s why I think shredded latex would work better – it’d be more conforming.
Memory foam would also work, I’d think, but I’ve been avoiding it because of the off-gassing issues. Pretty sure I’d prefer shredded latex to memory foam – I’d get the conforming bit without the petrochemical off-gassing (or the wet-cement feeling).
I don’t want to raise the torso; just want more lumbar support, which seems to be not quite there even when the shoulders & hips are aligned right.
I’m also having trouble finding the right pillow for my head. I was set in that area when I still had the fiber-bed on top of everything, but without it, I need a slightly higher pillow. There was much fidgeting with pillows before I finally got to sleep last night… I was hoping not to use it anymore, but putting the fiber-bed back on the bed might be the next experiment, if I can’t get comfy without it. We’ll see.
OK … this is strange to me and a reason to investigate if there is a reason that is not obvious. It would be exceptionally rare for almost anyone to have a “gap” in the lumbar/waist area when they are on 3" of 14-17 latex with a couple of inches of a latex transition layer underneath. This would only happen if you were not sinking in enough with your hips which I find really odd. Is this since you had the yoga mat under the top 3" or was it like that with the 2" of latex underneath as well. Your comment that the latex was not “conforming” is also telling me that there is a missing factor that I am not aware of.
I wanted to “isolate” this comment and see if I could figure out what was happening because even “curvy” people under 100 lbs shouldn’t have a lumbar gap with latex of this low ILD which normally would easily allow the hips to sink in far enough that the point elasticity and resilience of the latex would firmly “fill in” the lumbar gap.
When you slide your hand under the lumbar … does it slide really easily or is it just that you can slide it under with real effort? I just did a “test” with my DH on her side. She is 5"7" … @ 130 and “curvy”. Our mattress has 22 ILD on top with .4" of quiltable latex and a down substitute quilting. I can slide my hand under her waist with effort but it is very tight and nothing even remotely like a gap or “non conforming”. Without the quilting it would likely be even more difficult.
Something is “really strange” here and I have the feeling I must be missing something which could affect the rest of my thoughts about the layering.
on the decision for a few nights.
