latex toppers for lightweight, curvy people

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
61

Hi Phoenix,

I’m pretty sure my hips are sinking in just fine.

I’m sorry; I don’t remember. It might just be since I took the fiber-bed off the top of the stack. The fiber-bed is several years old and fairly compressed in the hip area, but it still has some cushioning in the non-compressed (or not-quite-as-compressed) areas. I’m probably just used to feeling that around me.

Sorry to be so perplexing. :lol:

I think the only thing you’re missing is the magical ability to see what’s going on here, from where you are. :slight_smile: There is only so much information that verbal descriptions can provide.

Well, I’m not curvy in the Marilyn Monroe sense. In my case, “hourglass figure” refers to the broad-ish shoulders, narrower waist, and wide hips – my bone structure. Which is rather more prominent than it should be right now.

(I unintentionally lost about 8 pounds in the past 6 months, and I am de-conditioned, so basically, I’m more bony than usual. If/when I put the weight back on, plus a few more pounds, and get some muscle mass back, that should help matters.)

Not much effort.

I made myself a very thin (as in flat) lumbar pillow, with polyfill, and used that last night. And I tried a different arrangement of pillows for the head to get the right height. Seemed to work OK. Woke up this morning with no low-back pain, no numb arms, and no neck pain – the Trifecta. :cheer:

I don’t think you’re missing anything, and I think the latex layering is good. I’m probably just used to having the fiber-bed (fiber-fill & lightweight, well-broken-in cotton) filling in around my midsection – to a degree that soft solid latex can’t quite match (but memory foam or shredded latex probably can). And I’m using my homemade body pillow to try to make sure that I stay on my side instead of letting my hips & legs roll forward (thereby twisting my spine) when I sleep, so that’s another change to adjust to.

62

Hi Catherine,

I think that more than anything you hit the nail on the head as to the difference between real life experience and “theory at a distance”. As you mentioned written communication is better for “objective” factors but very limiting for more nuanced and subjective factors. When I had the time to work more closely with people on the phone … it made a real difference in clarifying the words they used to describe their experience and was much more accurate because words like “soft” and “firm” and “supportive” could be described in much more detail and it allowed for much more back and forth interaction. Your clarifications though are helping me make more sense of what you are experiencing. I’m still working on my “remote sensing” abilities :).

I also love challenges and situations that are “perplexing” … they are part of how all of us learn … and my learning curve is always ongoing. I sometimes think that I am the greatest beneficiary of the forum as it helps me to do a better job in translating other peoples experiences into ideas that can become more and more “accurate” within the limitations of written forum communications and the articles on the site.

OK … this also makes more sense to me and the “Trifecta” is really good news! This is a form of “reverse zoning” which can often help lighter curvier people or ironically much heavier people with more weight in their midsection. It provides more direct support to the lumbar. Some more “average” people who use this find this uncomfortable as they are not used to what they feel as “lumbar pressure” and this is often what they refer to as “pushback”. In some circumstances like your’s though when the weight and shape of the body warrants it … it can be very effective both for weight distribution and for alignment.

I really like your willingness to experiment … especially with unusual solutions. You have a good grasp of the effects of different changes. Memory foam in a “middle lumbar” layer can be effective because when it is used in a position that is lower in a mattress it will stay firmer than when it is closer to body heat. This is why it is often used in a “lumbar” support system. I certainly understand however and share your hesitancy about using memory foam in a mattress in spite of its benefits in certain circumstances.

Back to the previous possibilities …

This is certainly a possibility and I understand where you are going … however it would put the cut lines right at the area of the hip (which is usually in the middle of the body). It may also put too much thickness under your hips even though it may work for your shoulders. Normally zoning would be in “thirds” rather than “halves” as this conforms better to different areas of the body.

I think with your very creative yoga mat and pillow experiments that you may well be able to get closer than a “cut in half” type of zoning.

Phoenix

63

Hi Phoenix, [quote=“Phoenix”]
OK … this also makes more sense to me and the “Trifecta” is really good news!
[/quote]
Well, no such luck last night. Three problems:

  1. My homemade lumbar pillow shifted around more than I expected, so I wound up without lumbar support by morning. So it’s back to using a folded towel, or back to putting the lumbar support thing (whatever I use) under the bottom sheet so it stays put.

  2. Using two pillows to get the right height for my head & neck is too much trouble. They move around and I fiddle with them too much. All of my pillows are either too low or too high for me to be able to use just one pillow. So I’d have to get another one, or open a seam on my shredded-latex pillow and remove some latex.

  3. I almost never sleep on my back, but I did for a while last night – and woke up with a sore neck. With the current setup (latex + St. Dormeir + sheet), I need a higher pillow for side-sleeping than I did with the previous setup (latex + fiber-bed + sheet). That pillow height is too high for sleeping on my back. When I had the fiber-bed on there, my shoulders were sinking in a little more, so the lower pillow height worked well for both side- and back-sleeping.

The idea was to get rid of the fiber-bed, and use only materials (like latex & wool) that dust mites do not like to hang out in, but I think that fiber-bed is going to wind up right back at the top of the stack. (Then I might have to move the yoga mat up a layer or two to keep the hips in the right place.)

Argh. :angry:

This is one reason I don’t want to cut the latex for zoning: I have no clue where to cut (where the dividing line between the soft and medium pieces should be).

The thickness would be the same: 5" of latex. Were you thinking I’d wind up with something too firm under the hips?

The yoga mat is working well. Pillow experiments, not so much. The key to a good kludge is simplicity. Yoga mat: simple. Multiple pillows, for head & lumbar region: not simple.

On to the next attempt… which will probably be to put the fiber-bed back in the mix (over the latex; under the St. Dormeir).

64

Hi Catherine …

I guess the good news is that none of last nights issues had to do with actual layering but more with lumbar and pillow “pieces” and adjustments.

When you are making the cuts for zoning … it’s important to make sure they are under the correct place. There are also different zoning models that can be used. It wouldn’t be quite so “simple” in other words and I think you’re wise to hold off on that until you get a handle on exactly what you need.

Normally, the zones are divided into roughly thirds and the middle third is made firmer as that will hold up the hips better. The comment about the layer being too thick is because even in a zoned construction … if there is too much soft latex under the hips they still may sink in too far even if the zone under them is firmer than the shoulders. If you doubled the 1" 14 you would have 4" of 14 ILD (over the N3) under the shoulders which would be plenty and I suspect that even 3" would be fine with a transition layer under it. With 2" of 14 also being under the hips and 2" of 24 under that (for a total of 4") while the overall ILD would be firmer here … it may be a little on the thick/soft side for the hips which may “sink down” a little further into thicker layers than the shoulders … even if it is a bit firmer overall. 24 is still on the edge of comfort layer range so my concern was that the 4th inch of “soft” (in combination with having 2" of 14 under the hips) may make the thickness under your hips a little much and let them sink down too far before they were “stopped” by the N3 and the mattress under it. Of course with the difference between the shoulder and the hip zone they both may sink down further and still be “in balance” with the shoulders which would also fill in the lumbar area more and provide “firmer support” there as well (like what you’re trying to do with the lumbar pillow). All of this is assuming that with the zoning the yoga mat would be removed.

In a “typical” 2 or 3 zone layer … an area near the bottom of the rib cage (the upper third of the body) would be the normal cut area. This way there would be softer foam for the shoulders and the rib cage (top third approx) but firmer foam under the lumbar and hips (bottom 2/3 approx). If you were cutting the layers in half, then the cut line would be right around the hip joint area and you want firmer foam here as well as the lumbar gap area above it. If you were to zone 2 layers … I would zone the top layer approx 1/3 14 ILD and 2/3 24 ILD. The next layer down would use a little longer piece of the 14 on the upper body part (so the cut wouldn’t be right below the top cut), the remainder of the 24 below this, and then any excess 14 would be at the bottom in the lower leg area. This may also present a problem though because your covers may not easily accommodate another inch of thickness.

If you want a sense of what I mean and what I consider to be the most accurate form of zoning that would be customized for your measurements, weight, and sleeping positions … you could go to http://www.customsleepdesign.com/ and go through the online exercise of measuring and answering questions and you will get a result with ILD suggestions and recommended zoning. I personally believe that this is an exceptionally accurate form of zoning and you could use the layers that you have to come as close to it as you could.

I’d still continue with your yoga mat and lumbar and pillow experiments though before I started cutting as I think they’re promising.

Phoenix

65

Hi Catherine,

There is another method of “testing” that can be quite accurate although it would require some space and take up some time. It may save you a lot of experimenting in the end however as it would help to “isolate” the effect of different layers without as many unknown variables and point quite accurately to where changes are coming from.

This method would be to put the two different toppers on the floor and test them on a very firm surface "with a blanket under them if necessary to keep them clean. An appropriate pillow would be important here as well during the testing.

The first step would be to test the 3" of 14 ILD on the floor to see how much pressure you felt on your shoulders and on your hips. This would tell you how much each part was “going through” the top 3" (you would feel the floor but “how much” and “how sharp or dull” the feeling was in each area would give good information)

Based on the results of this … the next step would be to put the bottom 2" under this and which side up would be determined by the results of the first experiment.

Adding the dormier and the fiber bed one at a time both individually and together would make clear the effect they are having on the layers below them.

Of course the yoga mat and the lumbar pillow could also be included after the steps above.

The particular effects you would be looking for would be the relative pressure on your shoulders and hips and the “feeling” of support under the lumbar created by how well this area was filled in. This would help make clear the subtle but hopefully noticeable changes each addition or change would create. The most important part of each step would be to test it for long enough (15 - 20 minutes with all muscles completely relaxed) similar to mattress testing.

While it certainly would be an afternoon “project” of sorts, it may also save a lot of experimenting as it would help to clarify the effects of every change. It can be quite surprising sometimes the unexpected (or even the expected) differences that each step can make and that the floor can help “isolate” and make clear.

Phoenix

66

Hi Phoenix,

Ah. OK.

Good information; thanks.

My sheets stopped accommodating the thickness after the first couple inches of toppers. (Good thing I don’t spend a lot of dough on sheets. :slight_smile: ) My bottom sheet is now a full-size flat sheet, laid sideways – it fits quite well that way. (And I never could figure out the proper way to fold fitted sheets after laundering them.) I bought a couple of queen-size flat sheets, at Target, to use as top sheets.

[Oh, wait; you probably mean the FBM terrycloth cover; yes? It’s made for a 3" layer. FBM says you can fit 4" of latex in there, snugly. I don’t know if packing that cover too much would cut down on the flexibility & elasticity; on the other hand, the bottom of that cover (which is not very stretchy, compared to the rest of the fabric) probably interferes a little with the elasticity of the toppers below it. Always trade-offs…]

Another thing about all these toppers on the bed: I’m using an old wooden bed frame (70+ years old, I believe). Originally, it had just 4 slats going across. When I got the new mattress 2 years ago, I bought some 2x4 lumber and had it cut into pieces the right length, so now there are 8 slats supporting all this weight from the latex toppers. (And I have a few extra slats in the basement that I could add, if necessary.) Without those added slats, I’d be worried about crashing through to the floor; those latex toppers are heavy.

I was a little put off by the site’s requirement to create a user account in order to use the online tool, but I will keep it in mind.

I cut the yoga mat into 2 pieces to make it easier to try using it between different layers. For most of the past week, I had the fiber-bed back at the top of the topper stack, with one piece of the yoga mat under the top 2" of soft latex, and the second piece of yoga mat 1" down from that (so, under all 3" of soft latex). Not bad, but I still need the lumbar support from a rolled-up pillowcase.

Last night, I tried the same setup but without the fiber-bed (or makeshift lumbar support) in there. My lumbar area felt better supported, I think, but I had numbness in my hands & feet. (My hands & feet are often cold, and they fall asleep very easily.)

Also, with the St. Dormeir directly on top of the latex (well, on top of the latex + FBM terrycloth cover), I overheated again. But if I start throwing off blankets, then the parts of me that are on the mattress are still quite warm, and the parts of me that aren’t, are cold. :unsure: (I turn the thermostat way down at night.)

So the deciding factor here (for whether or not to use the fiber-bed) might be the overheating effect I’m getting from the wool mattress protector when it’s directly on the soft latex. I’ll probably wind up putting the fiber-bed back on as a buffer between the latex and the St. Dormeir (and then do whatever is needed to make sure I still have lumbar support).

Since my original aim was to get that old fiber-bed out of the mix, and use latex instead, I probably have more soft latex than I need (when I’m using the fiber-bed). But I’ll leave it there for the time being, assuming that I can get proper alignment and support with the right set of kludges (i.e., yoga mat, etc.).

Edited the next day to add:
The second night with the setup I discussed earlier (no fiber-bed under the St. Dormeir), I did not overheat from the wool – no idea why the difference, 'cause I used my usual blankets – but I did wake up with significant lower back pain. Weird. I slept on my back for most, if not all, of the night.

All these little difficulties are getting hard to keep track of, and I’m ready to be done with the experimenting. I’m still thinking that solid latex is just not the best top layer of topper for me – without or without zoning – and I’ll need to keep the fiber-bed in there and make adjustments for lumbar support. Seems like the simplest solution at this point.

67

Hi again, Phoenix,

Well, still not thrilled to have to create an account in order to use that tool (plain HTTP, not HTTPS, and all fields were required, so I used fake info for name, city, and phone), but I did it (tired cranky grumble grumble*).

Results (for full-size mattress), top to bottom:

  • layer 1 – ultra soft, first 30 inches (from head of bed); soft for the next 45 inches; can’t tell how many inches deep this layer is supposed to be; they don’t label that
  • layer 2 – soft for the first 35 inches; medium for the next 40 inches; this layer looks twice as deep as the first one, but again, no measurements provided
  • layer 3 – medium firm for the whole layer

There’s no printable view provided by the tool, so I printed the results to PDF and annotated it in Acrobat. ([strike]Would you like me to email you the PDF?[/strike] I just emailed it to you.)

So, does this help at all? I’m not sure how to translate this design for an all-latex mattress into usable info for my situation with very firm innerspring + toppers.

  • It’s not that I don’t appreciate the free tool – I do – but I don’t need more user accounts scattered around the Web, especially for one-time use things.

Edited (again) to add:
Despite my whining about not wanting to experiment anymore, I am experimenting again. (Big surprise, eh? Blame the back pain.)

I just took the small piece of yoga mat out of the mix, and moved the big piece of yoga mat (24" x about 52") up a layer, so it is under the top 2" of soft latex, and lying across the bed, about 30" down from the head of the bed. No fiber-bed. Just the St. Dormeir (which really is surprisingly stretchy) plus my bottom sheet (cotton, and only verrrry loosely tucked under the mattress, on the sides).

So we’ll see if that gets the alignment right and makes the shoulders happy… or just makes me feel like my head is lower than my toes. (If my feet fall asleep immediately, we’ll know.) :slight_smile:

Edited (next morning) to add:
Results of last night’s setup: Welp, good news & bad news. Moving the yoga mat up appeared to help with the spinal alignment. No back pain or neck pain this morning. However, when I woke up at about 4 AM, I realized that the mat was interfering with pressure relief (my hips hurt). So, yoga mat 3" down (under very soft latex): no hip pain, but poor alignment. Yoga mat 2" down: hip pain, but better overall alignment. :unsure: Also, I was still quite warm from the St. Dormeir. (I like it, but can’t imagine that I’ll be using it in summer.)

Around 5 AM I finally got up and put the fiber-bed back on the top of the stack (but under the St. Dormeir). I’ll try that for a night (or probably several) before I start cutting up latex.

I wonder if there’s enough difference between the 14ILD and 24ILD to make that work for zoning. (I don’t mind continuing to use the yoga mat if it helps. I am reluctant to cut up the N3 piece, but I suspect that is what you will be advising me to do, if I have to cut the latex.)

Oh, duh… I just reread one of your posts above, where you said “If you were to zone 2 layers … I would zone the top layer approx 1/3 14 ILD and 2/3 24 ILD. The next layer down would use a little longer piece of the 14 on the upper body part (so the cut wouldn’t be right below the top cut), the remainder of the 24 below this, and then any excess 14 would be at the bottom in the lower leg area.” I’m not fond of the idea of cutting into that 2" piece of 14ILD – both pieces of 14ILD have seams; don’t know if that complicates the cutting – but that is probably going to be necessary if I wind up doing real zoning. (The 1" piece of 14ILD is already starting to tear in a few places on one of the edges. Fragile stuff.) Oh well.

68

Back again…

I have tried just about every possible permutation of the layering materials I have*, and have finally concluded that I need real zoning. I was trying not to cut the latex and not to spend any more money, but I have run out of permutations & kludges to try, so I just ordered a 32ILD scrap of Talatech from SleepLikeaBear, to use under my hips.

  • Permutations = various combinations of the following:
    With and without the fiberbed on top; with either 2" or 3" of 14ILD latex; with or without the 1" 24ILD piece; with the N3 and 24ILD pieces reversed; with or without the yoga mat under the hip area; and with 1 piece of yoga mat or 2, and with those pieces between various layers of latex.

No one can say I didn’t try. :slight_smile: (Do I get a prize for stubbornness? :lol:)

As long as my hips don’t sink in too far, the 24ILD piece is fine for my shoulders (they bottom out on 2" of the stuff), but it’s a nice solid, non-seamed piece that I might be able to use elsewhere, so I’m still reluctant to cut it. I’ll probably cut that 1" piece of 14ILD to use for the first 30" of the third inch of toppers, and then use the 32ILD scrap for the hip area. (And the N3 piece below all that, as a transition layer, for a total of 4" of latex.)

Maybe some of the rest of the 14ILD piece will get shredded into a pillow or added to a sagging couch cushion (after I’m sure the zoning works).

I’ll report on the results of the zoning. (It’ll probably take at least a week for the scrap piece to get here from SLAB.)

69

Hi Catherine.

I just realized that I forgot to post my reply to the email you mentioned in your earlier post so I’ll include it now to keep the thread up to date.

The Custom Sleep Design has 2" on the top layer, 3" in the second layer, and 6" in the bottom layer.

Latex International makes Talalay in ILD’s of 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, and 44 so this can be connected to the ultra soft to the ultra firm range in the different colors.

So the goal becomes how to build the best layering possible using the layers you have with or without zoning and/or using “creative yoga mat” zoning to most closely approximate the design goals of the Custom Sleep Design layering. Of course you will not get the same degree of customization as is possible with the CSD mattress but we can aim to get as close as your layers allow.

Part of the problem I believe is that the 24 ILD is in a dangerous “middle ground” in terms of ILD where it may not be soft enough for your shoulders but may be too soft for your hips so we need to be careful how we use this.

The CSD design makes clear that your “ideal” shoulder layering requires very soft latex (which you have) to allow them to sink in far enough and that this is significantly softer than the latex under the hips because of your specs and weight.

Your hips also need to sink in and have pressure relief … but not sink any further than they need to. In a non zoned approach, This would normally mean the 3" of soft foam that you have but require a firmer layer underneath it. This was the rationale behind only having the N3 (about 29 ILD) under the top 3" to give a transition between the mattress and the toppers but also being thin and firm enough to “stop” the hips. Adding the 24 in the lower 2" would let the hips sink in too far even though it would “hold up” the shoulders. So without zoning … I believe the “best” layering possible with what you have would be 4" of latex over the mattress with 3" of that being very soft and the 1" of N3 under that. Of course this would need to be confirmed in actual experience.

I also don’t know exactly what is in your mattress (even though I know it is firm … it is also not the floor so it will also be compressing to some degree and pressing on it with your hands may be deceptive) so this could also have a real affect on the layering even though it feels firm. This is why I suggested the “on the floor” exercise with the toppers because it would isolate the effects of the mattress and the wool or fiberbed as well. It’s really the only way to know for sure how the mattress and the pads are affecting the overall performance of the mattress.

On to zoning possibilities …

Yoga mat zoning …

It’s important of course that the yoga mat is only under the hips which need to be “stopped” (as you are doing). Your hips also need sufficient pressure relief which means they need to sink in enough. While it is possible that putting it under the top 2" may stop the hips slightly better, this may allow your hips to sink through the top 2" and feel the yoga mat more than you would want (pressure). Even if the pressure relief is good with this for both the shoulders (with 5" of progressive foam under them) and the hips (with 2" of 14, then the yoga mat, then 3 more inches of foam), then having too much softer foam under the hips could still let the hips sink “down” too far relative to the shoulders no matter where the yoga mat is put in the mix. While the yoga mat may reduce this slightly … it won’t stop the inches underneath it from compressing. Your hips would sink “in” less (less pressure relief) even though they could still “sink down” too much (although a little less).

So in both the unizone and the yoga mat zoning … the biggest issue is having too much thickness for the hips and this will remain no matter where the yoga mat goes (even though it will have some effect). It would be the same challenge as trying to firm up a mattress that is too soft by putting firmer foam on top of softer foam and this is always only partially successful at best.

Again I believe the best way to do this would be to use the 3" of soft Talalay over a single layer of N3 and then to put the yoga mat either over or under the N3 (if it was necessary and depending on which of these “fine tuned” the results the best).

Regular “cut” zoning …

This is the only place that the 24 ILD would likely be useful as you could to some degree approximate the custom sleep design layering … even though this would likely be the last (and most radical) step I would take because once the layers are cut they are cut.

In the least radical form of zoning, I would use 2" of 14 ILD as the top layer.

The next 1" layer down i would likely use 14 ILD for the upper 30" (shoulders/torso) and 24 ILD for the bottom 45" (hips/lower body).

The layer below this would likely be 14 ILD for the upper 35" (shoulders/torso), the rest of the 24 ILD (35") below that (hips/legs) and then the remainder of the 14 ILD (10") at the feet.

The N3 would then go under this.

This layering/zoning would involve only cutting 2 layers. While it would be possible to use the N3 in the zoning scheme as well … it would involve cutting 3 layers and would be more complex.

This zoning would create a 10 ILD difference in the middle 2" layers between the shoulder zone and the hip zone with … a 5" section that should be in the waist area of 24 over 14 which would provide gentle support to the waist “gap”. This would encourage both “sinking in” and “sinking down” in balance.

Before this though … I would do the “floor testing” I mentioned to see if we can get to something close without … or at least before cutting the latex as this could help to confirm the effect of the bed itself and the pads on top.

Phoenix

70

Hi Catherine,

You certainly get the “prize” for the most creative use of zoning and the number of layering combinations that I have seen on the forum :slight_smile:

I’d be particularly interested what your feedback was on 3" of soft latex over 1" of the N3 over your “base” mattress and any “floor” testing you have done. The specific feedback on these in particular would probably do more to “point to” your ideal construction than any other. They would also help identify the effect of the “unknown” variables in your layering arrangements (the effect of the mattress under and the pads over your latex layers) which can have an effect on any layering arrangement you may end up with.

There is an interesting video here (among many others) that shows the use of a firming pad in the middle third of the mattress. The key here would be to make sure that the thickness/softness of the layers under the firming pad was also “correct”. The elasticity of the firming pad would also play a big role in how well it worked (less elastic would better reduce how far your hips were sinking in).

Phoenix

71

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the comments.

With 3" of soft latex over the N3, my hips sank down too far relative to my shoulders, so my spine was misaligned.

Haven’t done any more floor testing recently, but I’ve tested so many other things that I’m not sure it would tell me much at this point. From earlier testing, I know that my hips & shoulders both bottom out on 2" of 24ILD – which is what made me think (a couple months ago) that I needed something firmer, which is why I ordered the 1" N3 (which I kept) and the 2" 32ILD piece (which I returned).

The 2" of 24ILD (the 1" piece folded over) works well for pressure relief – with something medium-firm below it – and it would be fine for back-sleeping, but it doesn’t conform enough to me for side-sleeping. Hence the purchase of the 14ILD stuff (to help with lumbar support [by letting the rest of me sink in more and by conforming more to me]).

When I had the 2" of 32ILD, I tried that on the floor, and I did not bottom out on it, on my side, but it didn’t make my shoulders happy.

The 32ILD latex does have some give, so I’m betting that a 1" layer of it – used only in the hip area, below the 2" of 14ILD and above the 1" N3 piece – will provide adequate pressure relief for my hips while preventing them from sinking in too far. (If not, I can still fiddle around with trying the 24ILD piece and/or the yoga mat somewhere in the mix.)

The Custom Sleep Design online tool really was quite useful, and the results from it reinforce what I’m finding in my testing of the various arrangements of toppers: soft stuff is needed under the shoulders; much firmer stuff is needed under the hips.

It’s possible that one of the zoning options we were discussing earlier – more 14ILD under the shoulders, and more 24ILD under the hips – would work. But for weeks, my lower back has been telling me, loud & clear, that there is too much soft stuff under my hips, letting them sink in too far and throwing off my spinal alignment. So at this point, I am convinced that firmer is the way to go here. We shall see. :slight_smile:

Sorry; where is the video? I’m not finding it…

72

Hi Catherine,

There are some variables in play that I would need to confirm before making any other suggestions as some of your experiences are indicating that there may be some other factors at work. When you are working with limited materials … then a specific order of testing different layering schemes along with an accurate “translation” of what caused the specific symptoms of each one by testing very specific small changes increases the odds of success greatly. With more “random” changes or with symptoms that are coming from “unknowns” or are based on misreading what is causing the specific experience of each layering, then this can often lead to an longer series of more “random” changes with less chance of making the exact changes which lead to the end result you are looking for.

The unknowns in this case are the mattress itself (how thick and firm the top few inches actually are as opposed to how they subjectively feel or their hand feel) and the sometimes subtle effect the layers over the latex can have. Feelings of softness and firmness or even perceptions of where an “out of alignment” condition are really coming from can lead to making changes which move away from the best outcome.

If 3" of soft latex over the N3 is still causing the hips to sink in too deeply … then this 3" of soft over an inch of medium is still too THICK. This would clearly indicate that anything more than 4" would also be even more “too thick”. Thickness plays just as important a role as softness and ILD. This “too thick condition” may be because of the thickness of the latex itself or it could be because of the thickness and softness of the comfort layer of the mattress. Without isolating this and confirming where the symptoms are coming from, any changes could be based on incorrect assumptions and may make matters worse (or at best depend on luck).

Floor testing of certain layers can be the most accurate of all methods of testing as it removes all the variables except what you are specifically testing.

This is an example of an incorrect assumption which can lead someone far astray. Your experience with this actually pointed more to layer thickness than to the softness/firmness of the layers which was already too firm for the shoulders. Once you make an incorrect assumption … then anything else that is based on this can also be more confusing than ever.

There are also some incorrect assumptions in this as well. The 2" of 24 ILD actually didn’t work well for pressure relief and the firmer thinner layer would actually be better for support than for pressure relief which is confirmed by your experience with it in your side sleeping. Pressure relief is necessary in your most “curvy” sleeping position and if it works for this it will work for all other positions as well. The 14 ILD would be for pressure relief rather than for lumbar support. Lower ILD’s actually provide less lumbar support (they allow heavier parts to sink in more) even though they may be essential for pressure relief. This is part of why layer thickness is so important. In general a mattress needs to be pressure relieving in your curviest position while it needs to be supportive in all your positions and especially your “flattest” positions (such as back or stomach).

Floor testing of firmer latex would not be nearly as important as floor testing of the softer latex. We want to know how much you are going through the layer which help to identify what is needed under a layer. Since 32 by itself is not a consideration for a comfort layer … there would be little benefit to floor testing it by itself.

The problem with the assumptions here is that all latex has some give … but the exact amount and where to put it is the “unknown”. If I’m reading this correctly … then you are considering 2" of 14 ILD over 1" of the N3 for a total of 3" of latex under the shoulders and then a lumbar layer in between the N3 and the 2" of latex so a total of 4" of latex under the hips. If this is correct then this could provide valuable feedback (although it still wouldn’t “isolate” layers so it would not be possible to know for certain where any changes were coming from). The layer thickness in this case may be good for hip alignment but could be too thin for shoulder pressure relief (only 2" of 14 ILD). This would be similar to where we were before you ordered the extra inch of 14 ILD from Jamestown when there was an issue with shoulder pressure relief.

This is certainly useful information but it also points to much more than just ILD. It also has to be translated into layer thickness and even zoning areas. Only looking at the ILD’s of the results without looking at the thickness of the different ILD’s will result in a “partial translation” of its meaning and possibly to incorrect assumptions.

In general, when you are testing for different constructions … it is usually beneficial to make incremental small changes and clearly identify where in the “range” of possible changes the next one needs to occur. It is also easier to work from the top down than the bottom up. The goal in this type of testing is to determine how “wrong” a certain layering pattern is and to “correct” it and if it is only a very little bit out in a certain area (such as hips or shoulders) then to correct it through changes in the next layer down. This type of testing can be very accurate while making bigger changes out of a specific sequence can result in far less accuracy.

Even a “bottom up” approach can be valuable. For example … comparing lying on your bare mattress and then comparing it to lying on the floor with either 1" or 2" on top of it. By specifically comparing the subtle differences between them you can “identify” exactly how the mattress is performing and relate it to the layering as a whole. Comparing 2 “bad” layering combinations and focusing on the differences and gaining clarity on the “why” behind the differences can be much more helpful than comparing each layering combination to an “ideal” as a whole or labeling each combination as “good” or “bad” for either the shoulders or the hips.

Yes … if this took actual layer thickness into account and also the layers above and below the latex into account this would be the way to test. The “more soft stuff” under the shoulders should be within a certain thickness while the “less soft stuff” under the hips should be inside the same thickness as the shoulders. If you put more 24 ILD latex under the hips but also increase it’s thickness then the increased thickness of the latex could partially offset the benefits of the higher ILD. A stiffer less flexible middle layer under the hips could work better here than an additional layer without removing something else.

I forgot to add the previous link to the lumbar support video. This layer is used in addition to the existing layers but is also stiffer and less flexible than the layers underneath it rather than just a firmer layer of a more flexible material such as latex.

Small incremental step by small incremental step with as few variables as possible to explain each change and identifying specifically where the changes in each step are coming from may seem to take a more time but will end up saving a lot of time over more random layering sequences and in the end will also increase the odds of making more accurate changes and getting to an ideal layering more quickly.

Step one is to find out the layer thickness and softness that are needed by the shoulders for pressure relief and to find the thinnest combination that is “almost” right but is just a little too thin and doesn’t quite do the job on a firm floor. Then the layers underneath this can help the pressure relief get to the “good” level while also being the minimum thickness and the firmest ILD which will keep the hips up.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Heavens, no. :ohmy: (See post #68.) The third inch down will be 14ILD under the shoulders and feet, and 32ILD under the hips. That’s the zoning part. (I’m cutting up the 1" 14ILD piece to use part of it under the shoulders, and part of it under the feet. Leaving the 2" 14ILD piece intact.)

The fourth inch down – under everything – will be the N3. (I’m taking out the 24ILD piece, at least at first.)

That is what I have been doing. It might not seem like it, but I have tested and tested and tested, fairly systematically, changing one thing at a time and keeping track of the results.

(It got a little hard to keep track of the results – couldn’t do it in my head anymore, and couldn’t do it with just bunches of numbers, so I had to start making layering diagrams and writing notes next to each one – so it’s understandable if other people are having trouble tracking all the experiments, too. :slight_smile: )

Yes; that’s a given.

Which is why I tried using the 5mm yoga mat in there. And it does help keep the hips up; the problem is that – in the position where it keeps the hips at the right level – it interferes with pressure relief. Hence the decision to do real zoning, by combining different ILDs of latex within one layer.

I really appreciate all the time & thought you have put into helping me analyze my layering difficulties, but I fear that we are going in circles now… Part of the difficulties of helping people over the Internet…

Don’t worry; I’ll lay all the toppers out and see how the zoning setup works before I start cutting… :slight_smile:

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Hi Catherine,

I see you are still in quest of making the mattress perfect. I kind of gave up and just slept on the mattress for a while and got used to it. I no longer getting the soreness I was getting initially. Maybe the latex finally got my body’s impression (not in a bad way)and the cover got more stretched out due to use.

I was like you rearranging the layer everyday but couldn’t get comfortable. Based Phoenix’s advice, I knew I got the right ILD combo and just slept on it. The weather is getting cooler, and I felt it was kind of cool to sleep on the mattress maybe due to all the ventilation holes in the latex. I bought a cuddlebed mattress pad from costco because it’s on sale this week, it’s providing a little extra warms and cush.

I don’t think this is probably not my most ideal mattress but my body has adjusted to it. I figured you can always make a firm mattress softer but not a soft mattress firmer. If I have to do this over, I probably would have bought from flobed where they had stretchier cover and cushy eggcrate 14ILD topper and unlimited exchange on zoning layer, I didn’t choose them because they were more expensive. I decided to stick with what I had.

I wish you best of luck.

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Hi britanyy,

I’m glad you have found something that works for you.

My innerspring mattress is quite firm; getting the softness I need from toppers (without getting too much softness) has turned out to be more complicated than I anticipated.

My scrap of 32ILD latex should arrive today, so after I’ve had a chance to set up my zoning and sleep on that setup for a little while, I’ll report back.

I am liking the St. Dormeir wool mattress pad. It is quite stretchy (and lightweight, with not much wool, so I shouldn’t have to worry about it becoming too compressed… I think…). And I haven’t overheated lately, so that’s encouraging. :slight_smile:

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Hi Britanyy,

From a previous post …

Here is a picture of what it looks like and I have to say I was impressed as I’ve never seen it before. I talked with Shawn and he confirmed that this is what he’s been selling for about a year. It is one of the nicest non quilted covers I’ve seen.

Just food for thought in case you ever decide to do a “cover switch”.

Phoenix

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Hi Catherine,

I have to say I’m sure curious how your adventures turn out and I’m looking forward to your report.

On this forum at least … you definitely get the prize for trying the most layering and creative zoning arrangements :slight_smile:

Phoenix

78

No joy yet.

The 32ILD scrap from SLAB was flawless, and I’ve already tried a couple of zoning arrangements. However…

I’m beginning to think that I am just one of those people who cannot get the proper support from latex. I’m also beginning to think that I’ve misdiagnosed the problem – and that it isn’t that my hips are sinking in too far (or maybe not far enough; I wondered about that today, too, amidst my many tests).

Rather, no matter how far I sink in – into latex of whatever ILD – my torso/lumbar region is not supported.

My hips & shoulders can be perfectly aligned, so my spine should be straight – but it is not, because nothing is supporting the lumbar region, so it just sort of “caves in.”

If I stick an extra strip of latex under just that region, and everything else stays the same – with uniform ILDs, no zoning – then my spine starts looking more straight. (I also then have a funny-looking bed…)

All this time, I’ve been thinking that my shoulders must not be sinking in far enough, and that if I could get the latex set up so that my hips weren’t dragging my shoulders down (or vice versa), then I’d be set. But I’m not set, and now I think that the problem is a lack of lumbar/torso support. My spine curves down & back up again, and I wake up with back pain. (I have a nagging suspicion that this situation is contributing to a hip problem, too.)

I don’t know if memory foam can provide any more support than latex.

By the way, I’m not relying only on how the toppers feel when I’m testing out various configurations. I am actually using a couple of mirrors (one leaned against the wall; one handheld) so I can see exactly what my (bony) spine is doing – which way it’s curving and what makes it curve, where.

Even with being able to see that, though, I cannot figure this out. So I’ve recruited a girlfriend to help me, when she’s available in a few days.

In the meantime, I’m about ready to start sleeping on the floor…

Edited the next morning to add:
Last night’s configuration was not bad. Not great – I’m still a little off – but it wasn’t awful (at least for one night so far). I took off the 2" 14ILD piece; I think it is just too soft.

I tried several arrangements of the items below, and last night’s setup was (top to bottom):

  • 1" 24 ILD Talatech topper
  • 1" zoned: 14 ILD for the first 30" (head & most of torso); 32 ILD for the next 30"; and 14 ILD at the feet
  • 1" N3 (25-29 ILD) topper

First time I’ve felt supported in months, seems like. (Don’t really know the time frame; just seems like ages.) The really soft cushy stuff feels great at first but always seems to wind up giving me back trouble after a while, and unfortunately, the effect seems to be cumulative.

I’m wishing I had a 24ILD scrap to put in place of the 32ILD scrap… 14ILD is a tad too soft, but the 32 could be a tad too firm.

Pressure relief was not ideal with this setup, but it was not bad, and at this point, what I’m really concerned with is support & getting my spine straight.

(I’m still recruiting my friend to help me figure this stuff out and check my alignment, but in the meantime, I’ve got to sleep on something, so I might as well keep experimenting.)

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[quote=“Catherine” post=1575]

Pressure relief was not ideal with this setup, but it was not bad, and at this point, what I’m really concerned with is support & getting my spine straight.

(I’m still recruiting my friend to help me figure this stuff out and check my alignment, but in the meantime, I’ve got to sleep on something, so I might as well keep experimenting.)[/quote]

This is something I tried when I was still obsessed with my mattress. Strip down to underwear, put a camera on self-timer, and run back to lay on the side and have the camera taking a picture of my back spine to see alignment. I am sure this would be easier if your girlfriend is helping out (no need for the running). This way you can see exactly what’s going on. :cheer: Do make sure you are laying the way you would normally when you are sleeping.

80

Hi Catherine,

My heart goes out to you and I can sense that you are entering the “frustration zone” which is where some misperceptions or “mistranslations” start to creep in and it feels like you have tried so many combinations that nothing will work. Part of the problem with this is that zoning can be a little tricky and the “wrong” types of zoning can do more to confuse than to help.

While most of my specific suggestions are in my earlier posts … there are a few things that may help, especially when your choices are limited in terms of materials or layer thickness.

The first is that layer thickness can be just as important as layer softness. This is where I suspect most of your issues are.

The second is that using firmer materials over softer ones is very tricky and can do more to confuse the issue than anything else. A “zoning material” generally needs to be thinner and firmer and less elastic. Using an elastic material for zoning that is only firmer but is not thin (like an extra layer of firmer latex) or is too elastic (like the yoga mat or an extra layer of latex) or putting it in the wrong position (an inch too low or high) can make a big difference. When “errors” start to compound … it can lead to assumptions based on mistranslating how all the layers are working together and the “why” behind what you are experiencing.

When your options are limited … it becomes really important to take a very calculated step by step approach and to look carefully at each combination so that the “why” behind it is fully understood. Making too many changes too close together creates too many variables in most cases.

While it is certainly true that some people just don’t like the feel of latex or how it reacts to them … it is also the most supportive of all the foams and if latex doesn’t provide proper support … then no foam will.

This is unlikely … although the odds are good that you may have “misdiagnosed” the solution. A layer that is soft and firm enough to allow your shoulders to sink in enough will always allow your hips to sink in far enough.

[quote]Rather, no matter how far I sink in – into latex of whatever ILD – my torso/lumbar region is not supported.

My hips & shoulders can be perfectly aligned, so my spine should be straight – but it is not, because nothing is supporting the lumbar region, so it just sort of “caves in.” [/quote]

Lumbar support is more about “holding up” your hips than it is about “holding up” the recessed part of the lumbar. The recessed part needs “soft support” while the lower lumbar needs “firm support”. While there are certainly instances where “reverse zoning” (the type of zoning that allows the hips to sink in more and transfer weight onto the mid lumbar region) can have value … it is usually not necessary … although you are in the “profile” of those who may benefit. The odds of you benefiting from this are reduced though (not eliminated) because you are using over 3" of highly resilient foam in your comfort layer. Sometimes there is some confusion in terms of what lumbar support really is. Holding up the hips provides lower lumbar support. Holding up the recessed areas provided “mid lumbar” support. The first needs to be firmer support (provided primarily by the support system). The second … for most people … needs to be lighter support (provided primarily by the comfort layer). The goal of course is to shape to the natural curves of the spine (on the back or stomach) or to keep the spine straight (on the side). While it is usually not as difficult to see major or obvious misalignment issues … it is more difficult to see minor misalignment issues (say an inch or so) that may be causing problems. This is where complete relaxation and trying to sense muscle tension can be important.

Your hips won’t “drag” your shoulders down or the other way around. They are too far apart to affect each other that way. Your spine though will “bend” too much (or sometimes too little) in the part between the hips and the shoulders when one or the other is sinking in too far or not enough. Lower back pain usually points to hips sinking in too far, Upper back pain usually points to the shoulders not sinking in far enough or pillow issues. These are mostly two separate functions that are corrected with both layer thickness (with both having the same thickness under them) and layer softness/firmness. Variations is layer thickness under either one or the other needs to be very small (when the foam under one is thicker or thinner than the other). Variations in layer firmness under one or the other using zoning often needs to be more.

The simple answer is no. Memory foam is either “more or less” supportive in comparison to other memory foams but not in comparison to other types of foam. It is the least supportive of all foams (allows the greatest amount of sinking in when it is in a sleeping environment) which is why it is never used in the support layers. While memory foam can certainly be helpful or preferable for some in a layering system, particularly in combination with other materials, it is not because it is more supportive than either polyfoam or latex.

I really admire how hard you are trying to get this right. I know from my own testing and experience though how difficult it can be to “self evaluate” how “correctly bent” your own spine is when you are lying on a mattress. Just the act of looking at it (moving the handheld mirror etc) creates tension and a “non relaxed” state which can affect alignment. Its certainly easier to have someone else do it … especially if they can “memorize” what the natural shape of your spine is while you are standing up straight with good posture. Each person’s “natural” bend is different and there are even cases where “correct alignment” can cause pain if the spine and the muscles and ligaments have become used to an “out of alignment” position.

This is a great idea.

If you go in this direction (and I know you were probably half joking … but only half :dry: ) … it would be a good time to do some “floor testing” that we talked about earlier. One combination at a time and a clear picture of exactly what is happening with each combination before any adjustments are made (so that the “symptoms” of each can be interpreted correctly) could be very helpful :slight_smile:

Phoenix