Latex versus coil and latex

[phoenix]

Hi jsboogie.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum!

You are asking many questions and while they appear to be simple on the surface, they are actually needing a deeper dive and some of them are not something that I or anyone else can answer definitively for you. However, I hopefully can provide some clarity and a few guidelines that might be assistive in helping you decide how to proceed (with a few extra links if you want to go further down the rabbit hole). I’d start by saying that I can see many potential sources for your discomfort and pains (sorry to hear about it) I’ll try to outline them one by one but only you can determine their validity.

But ultimately the dip in the middle and material breakdown got to me and I was having a lot of back and neck pain. After reading the guides on the MU, I realize I was likely out of alignment, sinking too much in that bed for years hence long-standing neck pain.

With over 30 years of mattress use you’ve certainly got your money’s worth, but sleeping in a “dip” for “long enough” may have also caused some postural readjusting to compensate for any mattress deficiencies as it relates to alignment and the learning of bad postural habits. When your back hurts, in most cases the discomfort is really coming from the muscles and not from the spine. Pains resulting from poor alignment on a bed that is past its prime and started to break down are usually noticed much later. This is because the mattress breakdown occurs in very small increments which can go unnoticed by our conscious mind for a long time and also because the body tenses muscles to compensate for small issues in order to preserve a good night’s sleep. Whilst this may not be the only reason for pains something like this over time will also pull out of balance other muscles and joints as your body tries to compensate and as the tension becomes more “entrenched” and spreads resulting in a pain that will wake you up. It is very likely that the longer it is left unattended the more the body will train itself to “learn” and cope with the postural stress and when it is returned to a more suitable sleeping surface it will take longer to unlearn and let go of the “postural fix” before returning to a state of “normality” This situation may need much longer adjustment periods and some gentle coaching of the body, tissues, and joints to destress and relax. There is a good article by Paul Ingraham about some causes of back pains here.

But it was an absolute oven. I woke all night in a sweat. I did not have the problem on my old foam topper (but maybe that was because it was over springs and not foam?).

While memory foam has real strengths in the area of pressure relief and movement isolation, it also has some drawbacks because of its very different qualities and structure. It tends to sleep hot for those who are sensitive to this and even the newer generation more breathable memory foams are not as breathable or open-celled as other types of foam. Because it absorbs energy, has little resilience and is a poorly supportive material and relies on the layers underneath to provide support and spinal alignment

The feel of the mattress is great - I have no pressure point pain with the soft top layer. But I’ve had back and neck pain since I got it. It has gotten better as the mattress has broken in, but after sleeping on it about 45 days, I started waking up with dull pain on my hips and shoulders (or they were numb) along with the low back pain and neck pain I had since the beginning.

I can certainly make a few general suggestions that may help in tracking down some of the possible reasons for your pains in the hope that you can use this as a learning curve … I suggest that you take a more methodical approach and try to better understand your sleeping landscape and the cause of your symptoms and then do a little some local testing before going in as state of confusion with a new online purchase. In general, issues with “pain” earlier in the night tend to be surface comfort related, and issues with “pain” in the morning tend to be more alignment (deep support) related, Lower back issues tend to come from a mattress with upper layers that are too thick and soft and/or support layers which are too soft which can allow the pelvis to sink down too far relative to the rest of the body. This tilts the pelvis which changes the natural curve of the Lumbar spine and can lead to lower back issues. A mattress that is too soft can also allow the hips to sink down too far which flexes the hip joints out of their neutral position which can also lead to joint soreness or back soreness if the muscles are working to keep the back and hips in alignment. The pain in your neck could be pillow related (although it could be from your sleeping position as well) so I would investigate this as well.

There is also more about the more common symptoms that many people may experience on a mattress and some of the underlying causes that may be involved in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may help with some of the detective work or trial and error that may be involved in solving the symptoms you are experiencing.

I’m worried that if I return this bed and start over with a new bed in the box brand, I’ll be in the same position. Part of me feels like I am perhaps just sensitive and there’s no perfect mattress for me… I could make do with it and it’s the best fit for me of the mattresses I have tried (not too hot and not too much pain to be able to deal with it). But I’m hesitant to keep it given I really don’t think I have correct alignment with it.

I certainly understand both your “worry” and your misgivings in keeping the Nolah and while there is “not too much pain” … you are still experiencing pain … “not too hot” … but still hot…. a “could make do with it” does not seem enough to grant keeping something that your body already tells you does not agree with. Listening to what your body tells you and your intuition may be the best way to move forward. You most likely read tutorial post here but this is usually the best starting point when you reassess the approach.

I ordered a 2 inch Dunlop plush latex topper from Sleep on Latex (ILD 20). It definitely gives the bed a softer feel, but I can’t tell if it’s helping the alignment issue. Can I expect a topper to help with an alignment problem?

I actually don’t need the bed to feel softer and think the additional latex may be overkill—the soft top layer of the Nolah is a good fit for me—but I thought perhaps the topper would be a good solution if I need more cushion in order to sink in more and have better alignment?

While a topper’s best use is in combination with a mattress that has no soft spots or “dips” in it and is too firm and only needs some extra pressure relief. A topper is not a good option to add support or correct alignment or postural issues. I’d focus on differentiating between the signals that your body is sending and finding if they come from lack of support or comfort and how they relate to each other. Adding a topper if you are already out of alignment situation can only only add to the problem and allow the heavier parts of the body (primarily the hips/pelvis) to sink down too far into the deeper layers. If the upper body is “held up” too much by the upper layers or the lower parts of the torso and pelvis are “allowed” to sink in too far then the resulting misalignment can lead to back discomfort and pain (which is most noticeable when you wake up in the morning).

Or if I am out of alignment on this bed, does that mean I just need a different kind of support layer?

Most types of mattress cores (latex, poly, or innerspring) can offer good support to keep your spine and joints in neutral alignment provided that you select the correct firmness for the “deep”/primary support. The choice between them is more of a preference and a budget choice rather then need. In other words you can do well with either but keep in mind that all layers work together and the top layers will also add some level of secondary support depending on the material type.

I actually don’t need the bed to feel softer and think the additional latex may be overkill—the soft top layer of the Nolah is a good fit for me—but I thought perhaps the topper would be a good solution if I need more cushion in order to sink in more and have better alignment?

Adding a topper will allow you to sink more but this does not equate with better alignment and what you described so far indicates that you may be out of alignment. As far as I can see part of the challenge you may have is not finding the right combination of "deeper "or primary support and “surface” or secondary support (see post #4 here and in post #2 here for more about primary support, secondary support, and pressure relief and how they are related) and any attempt to “fix” support layers that are too soft by adding layers on top will often only be partially or temporarily successful because it would be more of a “band aid” than a solution that “fixed” the core problem because the top layers can still “bend into” the softer layers below them and lead to alignment issues for your spine and joints.

I’ve only been sleeping with the topper a couple nights. If I do keep it, is there any downside to solving the problem that way? Will placing a firmer layer on top of the super soft Nolah layer cause the mattress to be less durable? Or will it wear through the top Nolah layer in a few months and I’ll once again be up against the too firm poly foam core?

The first and most important “downside” that I can see maybe more connected with suitability and support which should be the primary concern… “Support” primarily comes from a combination of the firmness of the deeper layers and the thickness of the comfort layers (how far away from the deeper firmer layer you are) while pressure relief comes primarily from the softness and thickness of the comfort layers. This is why the comfort layers need to be “just soft and thick enough” to provide good pressure relief in the most “pressure prone” sleeping position (usually the side for those who sleep in this position) but more than “just enough” can put you too far away from the support layers and not “stop” your pelvic girdle from sinking down far enough. When you use a topper over a mattress two things will happen. The first is it will compress and in combination with the layers below it will take on the shape of your body profile. Softer toppers will compress more than firmer toppers. This “cradle” formed by the upper layers re-distributes weight away from the pressure points of the body. The second is it will “bend” into any softer foam below it. This “bending” will happen more if the topper is firmer than the layers below it (what I call a dominating layer) because the lower layers will compress more than the upper layers and the topper will “bend” into the compression (or any dips or soft spots) of the foam below it. This means that the surface of the mattress will be slightly less conforming and feel firmer (less pressure relieving) and you will have a more “on the mattress” feel than if you were sinking in to a softer topper even though the next layer down is still compressing. Many people who are taller and slimmer will prefer a firmer feel like this because they are often “sprawlers” and prefer a more on the mattress feel with more freedom of movement. The downside to this arrangement is that the recessed gaps are filled in a little bit less than if the topper was softer and the lighter parts of the body (such as the shoulders) may not sink in as effectively for both upper body alignment and pressure relief.

As far as the durability goes … the uppermost layers of the mattress where it undergoes the most mechanical stress but Latex, in general, is the most durable of all the foam materials (latex foam, memory foam, polyfoam) regardless of whether it is Dunlop or Talalay or is made from natural rubber, synthetic rubber, or a blend of both.

Given my past difficulties with the zoned spring support and memory foam heat, do you have any recommendations for a mattress (or types of components) to try next if it would be best to return the Nolah? I genuinely have no preference in feel between all foam and spring. I like the cushion/comfort of memory foam, but don’t want to be totally burrito’d in my mattress. I’m sensitive to heat at this point in my life and I think I’m moderately sensitive to pressure point. I can only spend about 800 dollars.

It is not possible to recommend a mattress for you via an online forum, but everything you’ve described so far points toward the need for more support (both primary and secondary), and avoiding memory foam due to temperature and support issues. As you prefer a thinner mattress and which would work with your lower BMI, even for an $800 budget range, there are a few good mattress options that you can find, if you do bit more legwork and get in tune with your body’s needs. (A bit of meditation may help :))You mentioned that you have no problem sleeping on a polyfoam core which shows that it is just a matter of finding the right combination of comfort/support. Alignment issues can be difficult to “diagnose” (just like a doctor will tell you that back issues are rarely as simple as they may seem) … and I usually suggest that the “best” approach is a combination of visual inspection, listening to the cues and symptoms provided by your body, and a bit of analysis so that a change has good odds of producing the results that you are looking for. In most cases, changes are simple and effective but of course, there is always a smaller group where there could be multiple causes, greater sensitivity to minor variations, or other complicating factors that make fine tuning more difficult … and sometimes frustrating.

Phoenix