Wish there was a Like Button. This is my thoughts exactly.
Thought I would post this reply I got from Andrea at BE about their mattresses for adjustable bases:
We recommend any of our single coil mattresses or the all-latex model for adjustable beds.
Some of our dealers do sell the multi-coil models on adjustables but we always want to make our consumers aware that since the coils in the different layers all have different diameters, the coil units bend in slightly different places and this might cause a little friction between the layers if the beds are regularly adjusted to their max. level. We’ve actually never had a warranty issue because of that but like to be extra cautious.
The interactive model is the one we sell most on adjustables with and without topper pads and they perform really well.
The mattress should work for you in terms of alignment and support without a topper pad but depending on your pressure point sensitivity and personal preference, the topper pad might make the difference between you liking and loving your bed.
Hi fulen,
Thanks for sharing their reply … I appreciate it :).
Their email is very similar to what they told me when I asked them which was along the lines that all of their mattresses would probably be fine but they tend to take a more cautious approach in their recommendations.
Phoenix
How do you like the mattress? Did you get the European slats?
Have been sleeping on my new mattress for a while and am very happy with it; it moves perfectly with the adjustable base. It seems not as soft as in the store but apparently it will soften up over time. I was hoping my back pain would improve with the new mattress but unfortunately that’s not the case.
Hi fulen,
Thanks for sharing your feedback … I appreciate it.
A mattress can take a few weeks to break in and it can also take a few weeks for your body to adjust to the feel of a new sleeping surface that is different from what you are used to but this will generally happen over the course of the first 30 - 90 days or so (usually closer to 30) and then it will “stabilize” (see post #3 here).
There is more detailed information about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes or additions to your mattress that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing.
The most common cause of lower back pain is comfort layers that are too thick/soft or a support core that is too soft but If you are past the break in period and are experiencing lower back pain then the first thing I would suggest is a call to Scott Jordan so they can give you some suggestions based on their experience with the Oslo and other customers that may be helpful.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix, thanks for all your help. I bought the Oslo because it seemed to give good support as well as providing a soft enough surface. My lower back pain is worse in the morning when I get up, though I’m now able to sleep on my side as opposed to always on my stomach (I’m trying to wean myself away from that as it’s harder on my back). The sales person at Scott Jordan said my alignment looked good on the mattress . The topper is only 1" of latex and 1" of wool so it doesn’t seem as if that would be too soft. I’m wondering if I should try removing the topper to see how that feels.
Hi fulen,
The topper is only part of your total sleeping system and there are also some softer comfort layers in your mattress as well so how your body responds to and interacts with your sleeping system “as a whole” in all your sleeping positions over the course of the night is always more important than any single layer or component.
For example the amount of time you spend sleeping on your stomach over the course of the night can make a difference and your body may be fine with shorter periods of time on your stomach but it may produce lower back symptoms if you sleep on your stomach over longer periods of time. The topper would probably be fine for your side sleeping but may be adding too much softness for your stomach sleeping so it could be relative to how much time you spend in each position. While it’s not really possible to predict which type of changes will be the most helpful … I would certainly talk to Scott Jordan about your symptoms and it would also be worthwhile trying your mattress without the topper just to see how your body responds and how your sleeping experience changes.
If you spend time on your stomach then of course it would be important to make sure that your adjustable bed is flat under the mattress. It may also be worth trying a thin pillow under your pelvis/lower abdomen which can help keep stomach sleepers in better alignment. A body pillow can also help combination side/stomach sleepers because it can help with alignment and provide some of the “comfort” and familiarity of having something against your stomach when you are sleeping on your side which many stomach sleepers miss so you may be able to sleep on your side for longer periods of time.
Phoenix
Thanks for your suggestions, I’ll look into everything.
I’m bumping an old topic here, because the main basis for the post is somewhat along the lines of what I’ve got on my mind right now. I think either latex over pocket coil or all latex is the route I want to go. But there’s a rather significant issue in that I’m not sure either option is something I could possibly try before I buy, as I live in the east central part of Saskatchewan and am basically surrounded by nothing more than run of the mill retail mattress offerings.
To give some background and relevant details:
-I’m primarily a stomach sleeper. I can sleep on my back if I make the switch in the middle of the night, but try as I might I just cannot fall asleep on my back.
-I’m male, 33 years old, 5’7" and am typically around 190 pounds, which puts my BMI at 30. Broad shoulders, deep chest, thick legs. Kind of like a miniature middle line backer, lol.
-I work rotating shift work with a 5/5/4 schedule in a safety sensitive environment. 12 hour days, 2 hours of drive time. I usually target about 6.5-7 hours sleep on work nights, 8-10 on days off. I also need in the area of 12 hours of good sleep when I switch from day shift to night shift.
-I struggled with lower back pain the majority of my life, I think primarily due to mattresses that did not suit me. I had no issues sleeping on a medium mattress, but anything beyond about 5 hours of sleep I would start having lower back trouble. Trying to get 12 hours of sleep on my shift change day was impossible, I had to choose between back pain or extra sleep.
-I like a mattress to have a soft feel, but also have enough support so my hips don’t sink in (which is what seems to cause my back issues). Current mattress is a Stearns & Foster Chatham Island that I bought in 2014, sitting atop a bentwood slat platform bed. I can’t find any particular build info on it as it was a Sears exclusive model. I know it’s a firm pocket coil tight top. Initially I found it just a tad stiff and added one of the Novaform mattress toppers from Costco. It’s been the best sleep I’ve ever had on my own mattress, and back pain has been very minimal the last 4 years. However, this spring I started noticing some back pain starting to set in. I tried sleeping with the topper removed, and that did the trick.
-Prior to my current mattress I tried a Novosbed Sonata. Supposed to be a medium firm, but to me it felt like a rock. My back was fine, but I had trouble falling asleep, found it a bit on the warm side, and it was extremely hard on my shoulders. It was returned within their 120 day period.
-Prior to that I was on a medium Simmon’s Beautyrest Classic. Ok for about a year, but pounded out really quick. I gave up on it after 2 years.
-I feel it is worthy of mention that in my previous line of work I once spent 3 months staying at a Pomeroy Inn and Suites. That 3 months was by far the best I’ve ever slept in my life. They list their mattress as being Hypnos Opulence. Pomeroy sells the mattresses, and had logistics not been a huge issue I would have bought that one.
So now I’ve arrived at a situation where I’m mattress shopping again. I just finished renovating my house and finally have a bedroom that can accommodate a king size mattress (current mattress is a queen). I had full intentions of just sticking with my current mattress until it wears out in order to get the full life out of it. I should have seen the writing on the wall when I took the mattress topper off 6 months ago…that time is coming sooner rather than later. It has started to become gradually more evident to me that the mattress is starting to sag a bit and I don’t imagine I’ll get more than another 6 months out of it before my back starts suffering, so I’m starting to do my research now.
The simple solution would have just been to go buy another Stearns & Foster of similar build, but I really, really don’t want to go mattress shopping again 4 years from now. It would be wonderful to spend a bit more money and end up with a mattress that will last me 10 years or more, if anything just to avoid the agony and frustration that is mattress shopping. Obviously my searching has led me here, and from the research I’ve done it seems latex is the answer if longevity is the question. My gut tells me that if I’ve been happy with firm pocket coil beds then I should go with a firm pocket coil/latex bed. But naturally I have to wonder if I’d like an all latex mattress. And that’s where this becomes an issue, near as I can tell the run of the mill brands that retailers around here stock don’t seem to carry all latex mattresses, unless I’m overlooking something with all the fancy names these companies give their layers of materials? Is there anything at all that the feel of an all latex mattress would compare to? Or am I going to have to drive 4+ hours to find a retailer that would have latex in order to test it out?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Hi ls3gmc
Welcome to our Mattress Forum! 
Congratulations for finishing the house renovation project … nice to be able to change to a king and get some extra room to increase your mattress “real estate”.
You are on the right track with selecting beds with good quality and durable componentry as major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here. along with post #3 here. and post #12 here. and post #404 here.).
Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).
I always tend to trust my gut feeling in cases like this but just to rule things out … some theory at a distance might help at least to know what to focus on in terms of characteristics and differences between the two to see if it worth taking a trip to test-try one … but generally speaking, unless there is something that completely disqualifies this mattress type… you are correct that personal experience is the best way to assess if you like how it feels for you. whille both innerspring and a firmer latex core are great as a support layer each has very “different” characteristics and the most important differences are the ones you can feel and that you personally prefer. Both can be softer or firmer depending design … a pocket coil could be firmer than a latex core or the other way around they could also be zoned or not … all depending on the specifics of the components you are comparing. There is more about this in post #10 here and more detailed information about innersprings vs latex support cores in post #2 here and more about the different types and blends of latex in this article and in post #6 here or post #28 here. (At a quick glance I wasn’t able to find something that you could in your general area.)
After youve had a chance to go through the readings mentioned above you may wish to approach the 3 TMU expert members based in Canada and see if they can help you think through and determine the likelihood that you might like all-latex beds better.
Dormio Expert website here
Memory Foam Comfort Expert website here
The Mattress & Sleep Company Expert website here and here
TMASC also carries both innerspring and all-latex and can help with comparisons based on customer feedback All three experts mentioned above carry all-latex beds and ship throughout Canada and I think highly of in terms of transparency, knowledge, and are extremely skilled in helping customers find the right product and match.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I hope I can submit my message here, regarding layering and components for alignment.
I have been researching mattresses and components on this site for quite some time and am SO grateful for all the helpful information! Reading the guides and forum posts has been very helpful in understanding component and such but I have had quite a difficult time finding a mattress that works for me and out of desperation, I wanted to post and ask for any recommendations given my situation.
I am 5’6", 125#, side and back sleeper. My shoulders are narrower than my hips, but I’m a pretty normal build. I have never been a fussy sleeper. I’m not a person who has trouble sleeping on guest beds, hotel beds, etc. I spend a lot of time at a meditation center and when there I sleep on 4 inches of nondescript polyfoam on top of a wood base with no issue. However, buying a mattress has been rough.
I had a 30 something year old S brand hand me down spring mattress which years ago I had put a 3 inch memory foam topper on (nothing high quality though it was pretty dense, I definitely sank into it) and was fine. But ultimately the dip in the middle and material breakdown got to me and I was having a lot of back and neck pain. After reading the guides on the MU, I realize I was likely out of alignment, sinking too much in that bed for years hence long-standing neck pain. But at any rate, I found myself bed shopping.
The first mattress I tried was a memory foam comfort layer over-top a polyfoam core. I hasn’t discovered MU then and did not know to ask about the layer construction, ILDs, etc. so I don’t know much about the components other than it was plant based foam with a wool cover from a local store that specializes in organic/natural/latex. I thought this would be a good choice because I had been sleeping on memory foam for years and like the feel of an all foam bed. After a few painful nights (the top layer caused pressure points even though it was a “plush”), I did finally sink into it and must have gotten good alignment because I woke with no neck or back pain for the first time in years. But it was an absolute oven. I woke all night in a sweat. I did not have the problem on my old foam topper (but maybe that was because it was over springs and not foam?).
I wasn’t sure what to do next in terms of heat and was afraid to try memory foam again, but after reading on the forum and articles, I decided latex on top of springs couldn’t be a bad choice. I had been sleeping on a spring mattress my whole life and I thought latex would work for me (I sleep on a latex pillow so I had some sense of feel) and would be temperature neutral. I ordered the ultimate hybrid from Arizona Mattress. Ken was amazing, the products were super high quality, and I felt like there was no way that would be a bad bet. But I wasn’t even able to sleep on it two weeks because the back pain was tremendous. While the plush latex was a great comfort layer for me, I couldn’t sink into the support coils enough and I was sort of jackknifed in the middle. I really did try, but the pain was too bad to persist past a couple of weeks. I’m not sure if that was because the coil system in that mattress is zoned and I’m on the smaller side? But I wasn’t able to keep that bed.
After that, I really wasn’t sure what to do so I wound up ordering a Nolah mattress. I had narrowed that down from some online companies and needed an easy return policy. I was uncertain at that point how both memory foam and spring hybrids would be for me. Based on previous forum posts here, there were no weak links for a person in my BMI and it was advertised as best for side sleepers and temperature neutral. I have been sleeping on it about 3 months now.
Here are the specs:
The Nolah is comprised of:
2" 2.75 lb polyfoam (12 ILD)
1" 4 lb Avena polyfoam (20 ILD)
7" 1.8 lb polyfoam support core (32 ILD)
The feel of the mattress is great - I have no pressure point pain with the soft top layer. But I’ve had back and neck pain since I got it. It has gotten better as the mattress has broken in, but after sleeping on it about 45 days, I started waking up with dull pain on my hips and shoulders (or they were numb) along with the low back pain and neck pain I had since the beginning. It feels like I might be just going through the super soft top layer and then not having enough “give” against the support core? Because I wake up feeling like I’ve slept on too firm a bed. I don’t think I get proper alignment with this mattress, based on the pain and shifting position in the night. I have low back pain when I lie on my back too, but I can’t figure out if it’s because I’m not sinking in enough. The company sent me a topper made from the top layer foam (12 ILD) but it was honestly horrible as a stand alone (hot, not the right size for the mattress, moved around) and didn’t solve the pain problem, though I should have tried it longer.
My return/refund period is over in 30 days and I am trying to figure out what to do. There are things I like about the Nolah: it is temperature neutral, there was no smell to deal with, it is only 10" high (I’d prefer a lower mattress), and the top layer gives me great pressure point relief. I could make do with it and it’s the best fit for me of the mattresses I have tried (not too hot and not too much pain to be able to deal with it). But I’m hesitant to keep it given I really don’t think I have correct alignment with it. I also don’t have a lot of means (by budget is ~800.00), this was a big purchase for me, and I don’t want to spend so much on something that should last quite a while if it’s not the right thing.
My question is about what to try next. I have looked at many other bed in a box all foam beds, but generally the constructions all seem similar - 6 or 7 inches of med firm poly core and 2-3 inches of some type of proprietary foam comfort layer. Many of the companies won’t tell me the specs of the foam, so I can’t even compare to what I’m sleeping on now. I had considered the Brooklyn Bedding Signature hybrid but I’m not sure if I’d do okay with springs again and if I need a soft or a medium top layer - sinking in too far was causing me pain on my original old bed. Many of the full-latex super customizable options are way above my budget. I’m worried that if I return this bed and start over with a new bed in the box brand, I’ll be in the same position. Part of me feels like I am perhaps just sensitive and there’s no perfect mattress for me.
I am unsure if my issue is one of needing more of a comfort layer (so that I can sink in more)? Or if I need a different kind of support component to get good alignment? I ordered a 2 inch Dunlop plush latex topper from Sleep on Latex (ILD 20). It definitely gives the bed a softer feel, but I can’t tell if it’s helping the alignment issue. Can I expect a topper to help with an alignment problem? Or if I am out of alignment on this bed, does that mean I just need a different kind of support layer? I actually don’t need the bed to feel softer and think the additional latex may be overkill—the soft top layer of the Nolah is a good fit for me—but I thought perhaps the topper would be a good solution if I need more cushion in order to sink in more and have better alignment?
I’ve only been sleeping with the topper a couple nights. If I do keep it, is there any downside to solving the problem that way? Will placing a firmer layer on top of the super soft Nolah layer cause the mattress to be less durable? Or will it wear through the top Nolah layer in a few months and I’ll once again be up against the too firm poly foam core?
Given my past difficulties with the zoned spring support and memory foam heat, do you have any recommendations for a mattress (or types of components) to try next if it would be best to return the Nolah? I genuinely have no preference in feel between all foam and spring. I like the cushion/comfort of memory foam, but don’t want to be totally burrito’d in my mattress. I’m sensitive to heat at this point in my life and I think I’m moderately sensitive to pressure point. I can only spend about 800 dollars.
I’m at a loss. I’ve so appreciated the information here about how to evaluate components, but given how fussy I’ve been trying mattresses (which I did not anticipate!) I would love any opinions or help about what to do.
Thank you so much for your time and help!
Action
Hi jsboogie.
Welcome to our Mattress Forum!
You are asking many questions and while they appear to be simple on the surface, they are actually needing a deeper dive and some of them are not something that I or anyone else can answer definitively for you. However, I hopefully can provide some clarity and a few guidelines that might be assistive in helping you decide how to proceed (with a few extra links if you want to go further down the rabbit hole). I’d start by saying that I can see many potential sources for your discomfort and pains (sorry to hear about it) I’ll try to outline them one by one but only you can determine their validity.
With over 30 years of mattress use you’ve certainly got your money’s worth, but sleeping in a “dip” for “long enough” may have also caused some postural readjusting to compensate for any mattress deficiencies as it relates to alignment and the learning of bad postural habits. When your back hurts, in most cases the discomfort is really coming from the muscles and not from the spine. Pains resulting from poor alignment on a bed that is past its prime and started to break down are usually noticed much later. This is because the mattress breakdown occurs in very small increments which can go unnoticed by our conscious mind for a long time and also because the body tenses muscles to compensate for small issues in order to preserve a good night’s sleep. Whilst this may not be the only reason for pains something like this over time will also pull out of balance other muscles and joints as your body tries to compensate and as the tension becomes more “entrenched” and spreads resulting in a pain that will wake you up. It is very likely that the longer it is left unattended the more the body will train itself to “learn” and cope with the postural stress and when it is returned to a more suitable sleeping surface it will take longer to unlearn and let go of the “postural fix” before returning to a state of “normality” This situation may need much longer adjustment periods and some gentle coaching of the body, tissues, and joints to destress and relax. There is a good article by Paul Ingraham about some causes of back pains here.
While memory foam has real strengths in the area of pressure relief and movement isolation, it also has some drawbacks because of its very different qualities and structure. It tends to sleep hot for those who are sensitive to this and even the newer generation more breathable memory foams are not as breathable or open-celled as other types of foam. Because it absorbs energy, has little resilience and is a poorly supportive material and relies on the layers underneath to provide support and spinal alignment
I can certainly make a few general suggestions that may help in tracking down some of the possible reasons for your pains in the hope that you can use this as a learning curve … I suggest that you take a more methodical approach and try to better understand your sleeping landscape and the cause of your symptoms and then do a little some local testing before going in as state of confusion with a new online purchase. In general, issues with “pain” earlier in the night tend to be surface comfort related, and issues with “pain” in the morning tend to be more alignment (deep support) related, Lower back issues tend to come from a mattress with upper layers that are too thick and soft and/or support layers which are too soft which can allow the pelvis to sink down too far relative to the rest of the body. This tilts the pelvis which changes the natural curve of the Lumbar spine and can lead to lower back issues. A mattress that is too soft can also allow the hips to sink down too far which flexes the hip joints out of their neutral position which can also lead to joint soreness or back soreness if the muscles are working to keep the back and hips in alignment. The pain in your neck could be pillow related (although it could be from your sleeping position as well) so I would investigate this as well.
There is also more about the more common symptoms that many people may experience on a mattress and some of the underlying causes that may be involved in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may help with some of the detective work or trial and error that may be involved in solving the symptoms you are experiencing.
I certainly understand both your “worry” and your misgivings in keeping the Nolah and while there is “not too much pain” … you are still experiencing pain … “not too hot” … but still hot…. a “could make do with it” does not seem enough to grant keeping something that your body already tells you does not agree with. Listening to what your body tells you and your intuition may be the best way to move forward. You most likely read tutorial post here but this is usually the best starting point when you reassess the approach.
While a topper’s best use is in combination with a mattress that has no soft spots or “dips” in it and is too firm and only needs some extra pressure relief. A topper is not a good option to add support or correct alignment or postural issues. I’d focus on differentiating between the signals that your body is sending and finding if they come from lack of support or comfort and how they relate to each other. Adding a topper if you are already out of alignment situation can only only add to the problem and allow the heavier parts of the body (primarily the hips/pelvis) to sink down too far into the deeper layers. If the upper body is “held up” too much by the upper layers or the lower parts of the torso and pelvis are “allowed” to sink in too far then the resulting misalignment can lead to back discomfort and pain (which is most noticeable when you wake up in the morning).
Most types of mattress cores (latex, poly, or innerspring) can offer good support to keep your spine and joints in neutral alignment provided that you select the correct firmness for the “deep”/primary support. The choice between them is more of a preference and a budget choice rather then need. In other words you can do well with either but keep in mind that all layers work together and the top layers will also add some level of secondary support depending on the material type.
Adding a topper will allow you to sink more but this does not equate with better alignment and what you described so far indicates that you may be out of alignment. As far as I can see part of the challenge you may have is not finding the right combination of "deeper "or primary support and “surface” or secondary support (see post #4 here and in post #2 here for more about primary support, secondary support, and pressure relief and how they are related) and any attempt to “fix” support layers that are too soft by adding layers on top will often only be partially or temporarily successful because it would be more of a “band aid” than a solution that “fixed” the core problem because the top layers can still “bend into” the softer layers below them and lead to alignment issues for your spine and joints.
The first and most important “downside” that I can see maybe more connected with suitability and support which should be the primary concern… “Support” primarily comes from a combination of the firmness of the deeper layers and the thickness of the comfort layers (how far away from the deeper firmer layer you are) while pressure relief comes primarily from the softness and thickness of the comfort layers. This is why the comfort layers need to be “just soft and thick enough” to provide good pressure relief in the most “pressure prone” sleeping position (usually the side for those who sleep in this position) but more than “just enough” can put you too far away from the support layers and not “stop” your pelvic girdle from sinking down far enough. When you use a topper over a mattress two things will happen. The first is it will compress and in combination with the layers below it will take on the shape of your body profile. Softer toppers will compress more than firmer toppers. This “cradle” formed by the upper layers re-distributes weight away from the pressure points of the body. The second is it will “bend” into any softer foam below it. This “bending” will happen more if the topper is firmer than the layers below it (what I call a dominating layer) because the lower layers will compress more than the upper layers and the topper will “bend” into the compression (or any dips or soft spots) of the foam below it. This means that the surface of the mattress will be slightly less conforming and feel firmer (less pressure relieving) and you will have a more “on the mattress” feel than if you were sinking in to a softer topper even though the next layer down is still compressing. Many people who are taller and slimmer will prefer a firmer feel like this because they are often “sprawlers” and prefer a more on the mattress feel with more freedom of movement. The downside to this arrangement is that the recessed gaps are filled in a little bit less than if the topper was softer and the lighter parts of the body (such as the shoulders) may not sink in as effectively for both upper body alignment and pressure relief.
As far as the durability goes … the uppermost layers of the mattress where it undergoes the most mechanical stress but Latex, in general, is the most durable of all the foam materials (latex foam, memory foam, polyfoam) regardless of whether it is Dunlop or Talalay or is made from natural rubber, synthetic rubber, or a blend of both.
It is not possible to recommend a mattress for you via an online forum, but everything you’ve described so far points toward the need for more support (both primary and secondary), and avoiding memory foam due to temperature and support issues. As you prefer a thinner mattress and which would work with your lower BMI, even for an $800 budget range, there are a few good mattress options that you can find, if you do bit more legwork and get in tune with your body’s needs. (A bit of meditation may help :))You mentioned that you have no problem sleeping on a polyfoam core which shows that it is just a matter of finding the right combination of comfort/support. Alignment issues can be difficult to “diagnose” (just like a doctor will tell you that back issues are rarely as simple as they may seem) … and I usually suggest that the “best” approach is a combination of visual inspection, listening to the cues and symptoms provided by your body, and a bit of analysis so that a change has good odds of producing the results that you are looking for. In most cases, changes are simple and effective but of course, there is always a smaller group where there could be multiple causes, greater sensitivity to minor variations, or other complicating factors that make fine tuning more difficult … and sometimes frustrating.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
First, thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions and for providing all the information and the additional links. I so appreciate it! I’ve had a chance to read your response and to read the other links you directed me to. I just have a couple of follow up questions to make sure I am understanding your feedback and suggestions.
I appreciate your info about the topper (I understand that’s not the solution here given this is an alignment issue) and I have been paying attention to my experience on the mattress (and definitely feel I should try something that will be a better fit for me). You mention that low back pain upon waking is generally an alignment issue of hips sinking too far and you recommend more support, both primary and secondary. As a general role, primary support refers to the base layer of the mattress and secondary support refers to the more top layers/comfort layer of mattress? I understand each mattress is unique and the layers work together, but when you recommend greater support, both primary and secondary, I wanted to make sure you mean both the comfort and support layers.
Related, am I right to assume that choosing a mattress with components with a higher ILD will lead to more support for me? Does higher ILD generally mean greater support? After reading your response and trying to pay closer attention to what I’m noticing on the current Nolah mattress, I’m trying to decide what to try next (and hopefully not have any more returns). I was considering 3 options. The first is the Brooklyn Bedding Bowery. It is all foam, like the Nolah, but the top two layers are thicker while all 3 layers have a higher ILD than the Nolah. I understand “just enough” but no more is the key with pressure relief but since the layers are firmer as well as thicker, am I correct in thinking that might help achieve better primary and secondary support? Here are the specs for comparison:
Nolah:
2" top layer, 12 ILD
1" transition, 20 ILD
7" core, 32 ILD
Brooklyn Bowery:
3" Energex 3.5 lb, 28-30 ILD
2" transition foam (unknown ILD but 3.5 lb density)
5" base foam 1.8 lb, 36 ILD
The other two options I am considering is a full latex mattress from either Sleep on Latex or Flexus comfort or Sedona Sleep 7" polyfoam base with a 3" talalay topper. Out of these three, given my experiences and your recommendation for better primary and secondary support, do you think one would be better than another?
The other question I have related to correcting the alignment issue, is that for the 2 options with customizable firmness, I am generally advised by the sellers to go with a plush or soft top layer, given my BMI and side sleeping preference. And the soft top layer of the Nolah currently does give me very good pressure relief. But given that I seem to be sinking in too far into the Nolah, should I choose medium instead? The Flexus comfort has a great firm/medium combo mattress and I thought that might be the right fit for me, particularly since I have experienced two different 20 ILD latex topper as subjectively very soft and I seem to really “feel” whatever’s underneath it. In other words, I do feel comfort from it, but not much holding me up/support. Again, I realize each mattress will be different and there’s no way to say how they will work for me per se, but generally if I need more support, should I choose a higher ILD in both comfort and support layers in the next bed I buy? And of these 3 I’m considering, do you have a recommendation for best fit based on my experiences so far?
I so appreciate your time and any further thoughts you might have. Again, thank you so much for the additional information and all the extra links you sent—it was all very helpful.
Thanks so much!
[quote=“ls3gmc” post=78740]
-I feel it is worthy of mention that in my previous line of work I once spent 3 months staying at a Pomeroy Inn and Suites. That 3 months was by far the best I’ve ever slept in my life. They list their mattress as being Hypnos Opulence. Pomeroy sells the mattresses, and had logistics not been a huge issue I would have bought that one.
It would be wonderful to spend a bit more money and end up with a mattress that will last me 10 years or more, if anything just to avoid the agony and frustration that is mattress shopping.[/quote]
Hypnos is a well made and respected brand, albeit very expensive. It is recommended to not buy a hotel mattress based on experience at the hotel because hotel stays are usually just a few nights plus you have no idea how far into the break in period the mattress is.
But you spent 3 months on that mattress which is a more than adequate test period.
So when you say logistics stopped you from pursuing the Hypnos was it price or delivery?
If it was delivery there is a retailer in Regina that carries Hypnos and a retailer in Edmonton that states delivery to most places in Canada. Also Hypnos is manufactured locally in Edmonton and probably someone at head office could direct you to which retail model is closest in specs to the Opulence at the hotel (which was likely a hospitality model).
So if price isn’t the issue I wouldn’t take Hypnos off your list yet.
Hi jsboogie.
You are welcome! Glad to be of assistance.
[quote]As a general role, primary support refers to the base layer of the mattress and secondary support refers to the more top layers/comfort layer of mattress?
[/quote]
Your understanding is correct …the primary function of a support core is to offer primary support and keep your spine and joints in neutral alignment and the secondary support refers to the support offered by the comfort layers to fill the gaps in the recessed areas of your body when on your side and back. Se more on secondary support in the Comfort layers in this article here.
Related, am I right to assume that choosing a mattress with components with a higher ILD will lead to more support for me? Does higher ILD generally mean greater support?
ILD/IFD (Indentation Load Deflection) is a qualitative measurement of softness/firmness of foam associated with comfort/ support and your understanding is correct that the higher the ILD/IFD the firmer the foam. I’d also keep in mind that ILD varies significantly with foam thickness as well. On the exact same foam, the IFD increases as the thickness increases, as in the chart at 4.3 http://www.pfa.org/jifsg/jifsgs4.html.
The primary concern when considering a mattress is to offer the appropriate support to keep your spine in alignment. I will also add that in most cases … if you have a roughly equal choice between two firmness levels that it can often be “safer” to go with slightly firmer because you can always soften the upper layers and improve pressure relief and “comfort” by adding a mattress pad or a topper but it’s much more difficult to firm up the support of a mattress that is too soft (unless you can exchange a layer) because this involves removing or replacing layers or components that are too soft (instead of adding to them) which in most cases can be much more difficult to do.
This being said the switch from a very push surface of 12ILD to a 29-30 ILD is significant and may be more than you need. I would caution not to swing too far to the extreme and choose something too firm as this can also create alignment issues. As all layers work together a layer combination that is too firm where the “gaps” in your sleeping profile (such as under the lumbar curve or waist) aren’t being filled in and supported can also allow the more recessed parts of the body to sag or “travel” too far. Both scenarios can lead to pain and discomfort in either the back or joints when either the spine or joints are outside of their “neutral” alignment.
A mattress is always a balancing act between the need to “allow” the lighter parts of the body (such as the shoulders and upper body) to sink in enough into the upper layers (for pressure relief) and “stop” the heavier parts of the body (primarily the hips/pelvis) from sinking down too far into the deeper layers so that your spine is in good alignment. The layering and design that accomplishes this “balancing act” will depend on the body type, sleeping positions, and personal preferences. As a general guideline … side sleepers need thicker softer upper layers. So “support” primarily comes from a combination of the firmness of the deeper layers and the thickness of the comfort layers (how far away from the deeper firmer layer you are) while pressure relief comes primarily from the softness and thickness of the comfort layers.
I am glad that you’re doing your research and narrowed things down to a few finalists. While all the beds you mentioned could work well for you and while they are all good quality/value options from manufacturing trusted members or our site that I think very highly of … each of the mattresses you mentioned have different firmness choices and you’d need to assess each one in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). The mattress that works best for each person is as unique as the people themselves.
Even though you provided a great deal of information I still won’t be able to determine which mattress or firmness choice would be the ideal for you as there are entirely too many personal variables involved. All in all an increase in firmness for support seems to be a good direction and I’d certainly suggest that you call each of the manufacturing members that you mentioned and rely on their advice as they are much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the “averages” of other customers that may be similar to you. The more accurate and detailed the information you provide them the better you will help them to help you make the best possible choices out of the options they have available. Of course, your ability to exchange layers or the mattress itself or use other forms of fine-tuning after your purchase or the return policy may also be an important part of your personal value equation or to offset the risk that can go with any online purchase.
I am looking forward to hearing about the results of your discussions. Keep us posted!
Phoenix
@magpie
Thanks for the additional info for ls3gmc’s post.
Hi Phoenix,
Thanks again for your feedback and help!
After reading over your response, I would like to increase support in both primary and secondary layers but not swing too far the other way, which you pointed out. I was afraid that the 28-30 ILD on the top layer of the BB Bowery would be too firm for me. And I like the idea of erring on the side of something “slightly firmer” while still keeping in mind the principles of fit from your guides in the hopes of having good support and being able to make a comfort adjustment later, if needed.
With that in mind, I spoke with vendors at SleepEZ and Flexus Comfort and it was very helpful. I got recommendations from them about the option of progressive, transitional support with multiple layers of latex. Both of them would not recommend a medium surface layer for me (both recommended 19-20 ILD for surface layer, and said 24 ILD medium would be too firm for my BMI and side sleeping as the topmost layer). I have a 2 inch Dunlop topper, ILD 20, and need to stay within budget (fully customizable, multi-layer latex options are significantly above my price point). So I have narrowed down to this:
Flexus Comfort Dual Comfort, all latex, 9"
3 inch firm 35 ILD, 3 inch med 31 ILD, 1.5 inch polyfoam top
And I would use my topper to fine tune pressure relief/soften
If I use my topper, this choice is very similar to their fully customizable, 3 layer system but in my price range
Or…
SleepEZ, reversible, all latex, 9" (Roma)
3" medium 24 ILD, over 3" firm 40 ILD, both Dunlop
And again, I imagine I would need to use my topper for pressure relief.
Do you think it’s a mistake to purchase something with the idea of using the topper I have to fine tune comfort (to save money on an additional latex layer and not waste this product I have)? I well understood the cautions you gave me about putting that topper on the Nolah I have now with it’s support issues, but if I buy a more supportive mattress, could it work to fine tune pressure point with the topper? And do you think it’s best to choose a bigger gradiant (24/40) or would a smaller gradient (31/35) allow for best progressive transition/best alignment? Or are they so similar I am unlikely to really feel a difference?
And do you think it’s a good choice to try this “3 layer” approach to achieve better alignment/comfort sweet spot? I am still looking at the Sedona Sleep 7" HD poly core with a 3" latex topper. I would think I would need the 19 ILD topper but have concerns that it might again be too soft. I could also buy the medium topper and again use my 2" topper to fine tune comfort and achieve a 3 layer construction.
I’ve looked at other bed-in-box companies for a straightforward, all foam option with an easy return policy given that the BB Bowery might be too firm. But either they won’t tell me the ILD of the layers or the top half of the mattress is memory foam, which I am hot with. I would be open to recommendations if I’m missing a good option.
Last, what are your thoughts about layering latex over memory foam? Sleep EZ makes an all foam mattress that is 2" 19-20 ILD latex over 2" memory foam (I couldn’t get specific specs of the memory foam) over 6" of a HD polycore. You can flip the latex/memory foam to adjust what is on top. Would latex over memory foam give me more support than the Nolah? I ask because when I put the 2" 20 ILD latex topper on the Nolah, I still feel not enough support and wondered if it would be similar with memory foam between latex and polyfoam support. I would totally appreciate your take on this layering set up.
Thanks again for your patience with my questions and for all the help!!
Hi jsboogie.
In most cases, I would avoid the approach of buying a mattress to suit a topper because of the uncertainty involved if the mattress is still not supportive enough. In your case with the double flippable mattresses that you are considering adding the topper you already own will give you 5" comfort and a progressive construction and would increase your options and chances to get the right softness/firmness balance needed at your BMI and suitable in terms of thickness, firmness, and PPP on the specific mattress . Getting the right combination of mattress/topper sometimes can be almost as difficult as choosing a mattress that doesn’t need a topper in the first place. You are correct that it would best to focus on an option that is likely to be a suitable match for support without a topper and then add the topper as a “backup” strategy in case your initial choice is too firm. As far of which of the two options you listed above would work better for you I’d say that they both have a different balance of support comfort and only you can tell which one is most beneficial for you. For a Firm choice in either beds you’d probably need to add some surface plushness to it to relieve any pressure point.
While all the options you mentioned (SleepEZ, Flexus, Sedona) could work all well … only you’d be able to tell which one “achieves your sweet spot” … When you are down to final choices between “good and good” then there isn’t a formula that you can use and “best judgment” based on your testing, your conversations and questions with each retailer or manufacturer, and the specifics of your personal value equation is the most effective way to choose. I can speak only in general terms and while I’m always happy to help the forum members here with “how” to choose, to act as a "fact check, or to help them find better manufacturers or retailers that have better quality and value but “what” to choose in terms of either a mattress or the balance between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment that may be suitable for a specific person is always up to the only person who can feel what you feel on a mattress and best left to personal testing and your own experiences or more detailed discussions with the more knowledgeable people at the retailers or manufacturers that sell a mattress you are considering. This is exactly where a good manufacturer or retailer can truly help. You seem to be on a good track with your choices but I would encourage you to always check and run everything by your internal sensors or “gut feeling”.
Placing latex on top of memory foam is a popular combination, and it assists with the temperature issues that some people are sensitive to with memory foam and reduces the feeling of being trapped in a mattress (for those who don’t like this). If you liked the overall level of support and contouring of a memory foam bed, using the latex topper on that item might work well. If it felt a bit too soft to you, you may desire the firmer version. While the latex on top would be most of your source of surface comfort (all layers of a mattress do work together), how much it “bends into” the transition memory foam layers will be determined by your firmness choice. With this type of construction, I would normally suggest a thinner layer of latex over a thinner layer of memory foam so that you can notice more of the “feel” of both materials and there would be less risk of alignment issues.
I am not sure if the mattress you describe is a custom order from SleepEZ or the dual-sided Kiss Mattress they carry. Sleep EZ is always very transparent and always disclosing the specs of their mattresses and I am sure if you ask them they’ll be happy to share it with you. Just in case for your ease of research here are their updated specs
Comfort Layers: 4" flippable. 2" of 19 ILD 100% Natural Talalay Latex, 2" of 3 lb SleepEZ Active Flo polyfoam
Support Layers: 6" 2.0 lb HD polyfoam The 2" of 3 lb SleepEZ Active Flo Foam is one of the newer generations of “high performance” polyfoams that are more breathable, faster responding, and less temperature sensitive. The 6" base layer of 2 lb polyfoam is a higher quality material than you would normally find in this category. These are high-quality materials with no “weak links” in the design and would be suitable for any weight range.
While my thoughts about suitability as it relates to your particular needs are of course generalizations, I hope that they are helpful to you.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
Your generalizations and “fact checking” as I try to make sense of my own research are hugely helpful and I appreciate your patience with my questions. And I appreciate your feedback about shopping to add to the existing topper.
Thank you for sending that information about the bed… Are those specs you provided for the Kiss Mattress? I had understood from my call that the layer under the latex was memory foam, but if I am understanding from your post, it is a polyfoam?
Objectively, if I compare the comfort layer of the Nolah (2" 12 ILD polyfoam, 1" 20 ILD polyfoam) and the comfort layer of the Kiss, am I correct in thinking that the Kiss is more supportive (higher ILDs in both layers and latex tends to be supportive) overall than the Nolah? I’m thinking that this bed fits the category of more supportive overall (including the 2.0 lb HD base as compared to the Nolah) based on your feedback about my experience on the Nolah, but still gives me 4 inches for a cradle to assist with alignment and comfort. And I have some ability to change the overall softness/support of the comfort layer if I flip it to increase the chances to get the right softness/firmness balance needed. I hope I am on the right track with these assumptions about it…
And I will submit the rest of my decision to reading again on those two links you sent about final choosing and PPP and a gut check. Thanks again!
Hi jsboogie.
Oops! Somehow your posting slipped through the cracks yesterday, I am glad I checked on your status.
You are correct the specs are for Kiss Mattress and the 2" of 3 lb SleepEZ Active Flo Foam is one of the newer generation of “high performance” polyfoams that are more breathable, faster responding, and less temperature sensitive. you can have a visual of the mattress configuration here and read a more detailed description here.
You are correct again on all points and definitely on the right track … Kiss will be more supportive than Nolah and plusher than the BB and give you more adjustability options. Also, you can reach directly to SleepEZ here for any additional questions about Kiss Mattress. They are one of the Experts on our Panel and very experienced with fitting the right mattress to each sleeper
I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding … and of course, any additional comments or questions you may have along the way.
Phoenix