Hello Phoenix,
Since my last post weāve bit the bullet and purchased a split King latex mattress with 3 layers on each side. We are using our original king base with a piece of plywood on top to support the latex mattress, and have added a quilted mattress protector to give a little more softness. Weāve been sleeping on our new mattress for a month.
My side has a Dunlop Firm, Talalay Medium and Tallalay Soft composition.
Hubbyās side has Dunlop Firm, Dunlop Medium and Tallaly Soft compostion.
He seems to be sleeping well and not interested in making any adjustments.
However, I am waking with sore shoulders and hipsā¦indicating issues with the support layers. No problems with comfort when I get into bedā¦just in the mornings.
Iād like to know what changes would be most helpful, since I can make layer changes at a reasonable cost from our seller for up to 90 days. Although our original plan was to switch our own layers around to find the best arrangementā¦with only 6 layers and 2 duplicates, we donāt have a lot of options. It seems my hubby would have to endure 2 layers of firm while I tested his medium Dunlop on my sideā¦he doesnāt think this is a good idea.
Iām mostly a side sleeper and occasionally stomachā¦in the āgenerousā size category .(BMI 30).
Soā¦should I try a different bottom layer, or middle layer, and what should I try? Would a Dunlop Medium on the bottom make any difference (instead of Firm), or should I focus on the middle layer and try a Dunlop Soft instead of the current Talalay medium?
As always, I appreciate your advice and help in navigating the ins and outs of finding perfect rest.
Hi Q8canuck.
I just noticed that your previous post got buried in the by another discussion in progress :oops: . I deleted the duplication and responded here.
Glad to hear that your āhubbyā is sleeping well on the new mattress ā¦ Congratulations on your new mattress purchase ā¦ it looks like your side needs a bit of fine-tuning and itās good that you had the foresight to order from a manufacturer that has good exchange policies.
I am not sure I understand correctly the configuration you have in mind but I tend to agree with your husband that the layering arrangement you mentioned may not work in your case. M/M/S on your side (from bottom to top) wouldnāt be adding the extra support that you seem to desire but instead would have just the opposite effect so Iād be concerned about your spinal alignment and support ā¦. also on your husbandās side an F/F/S configuration would most likely make it too firm for his needs as well.
As mentioned above there are some mixed messages in your descriptions regarding your support/comfort needs and youād want to determine if it is the lack of support, comfort or both that causes the shoulder and hip soreness. Your initial assessment of adding more support seems to be pointing in the general direction as typically a more āgenerousā weight range sleeper would need both firmer base layers and firmer comfort layers to make sure the mattress keeps them in good alignment in all the sleeping positions. You may wish to revisit the info about primary or ādeepā support and secondary or āsurfaceā support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the ārolesā of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here which may be helpful in clarifying the difference between āsupportā and āpressure reliefā and āfeelā as you go through this identification process.
Typically shoulder and arm issues can come from a mattress that is too firm and puts direct pressure on the shoulders, the shoulder blades, or on the back muscles and can also cause soreness or numbness and tingling in the arms or can often come from postural issues as well. There is some much more detailed information on shoulder and arm issues in posts #2 and #3 here and Iād make sure to pinpoint the type of comfort/support (primary/secondary) issues that may contribute to your soreness and also assess the pillow you are using as this can be a big contributor as well. Hip issues, for side sleepers especially, can be caused by a comfort layer that is too firm or too thin where you can feel the firmness of either the sleeping surface itself or the support layers āthroughā the comfort layers. These are pressure point issues. In some cases though another reason for hip pain may be a mattress that is too soft which can cause your hips to be out of their neutral alignment and sink down too far which can hyperextend the hip joint and can lead to a burning feeling or pain from joints, muscles, and ligaments that are stretched beyond their neutral alignment. This would more of an alignment issue except instead of spinal alignment itās about joint alignment. Iād also make sure to check the pillow issue and verify that the bed has good central support and if it is not sagging under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it.
You may also wish to peruse some of the forum posts and threads about mattresses and higher weights and a forum title search on heavy (you can just click this) will bring up many of them. Some examples include post #2 here and post #2 here and this thread
Of course, your first best source of guidance is always coming from the manufacturer/retailer of your mattresses who can give you suggestions for their layering designs based on averages of other customers that are similar to you, but feel free to add your thoughts and clarify some of the issues I mentioned above and Iāll do my best to assist you.
Phoenix
Hi - I think from what I read about posting new questions this thread seems like an ok place to start mine but if Iām hijacking I apologize!
Iāll TRY to be concise but I think the backstory is important for getting any guidance. Sorry if itās too much!
My husband (5ā10, 185 lbs, 26.5 BMI) and I (5ā5", 110 lbs, 18.3 BMI) have had (and loved) a king-sized tempurpedic for 15 years. I didnāt have any idea it was that old until I started having leg and hip discomfort in my sleep recently.
When that started I realized the top memory foam layer was pretty mashed. Each of us had a little furrow we were sleeping in. I didnāt think that was necessarily a bad thing - I liked my furrow! When the discomfort started to be a nightly thing I first thought it must be from pressure on my hip but after doing research here (lots of great info here!) and elsewhere I think itās more likely misalignment from my pelvis sinking too low. I had that same sensation years ago sleeping for a couple of weeks on a soft, soft sofa.
I thought weād just get another tempurpedic since we had really enjoyed it and at 15 years I think we more than got our moneyās worth. (No indentations show when weāre not on it so the warranty wouldnāt apply). Then I saw the price point theyāre selling tempurpedics at now and it made me start looking at other options and I got interested in latex.
As an experiment we turned our current mattress over. The bottom layer of our tempurpedic is a very firm foam (polyfoam?) but it has a little give and we were able to sleep on it for a few nights. Although the firmness wasnāt especially comfortable it wasnāt HORRIBLE and the pain in my legs/hip went away. I think that confirmed that discomfortās from sagging down into the old memory foam. I did feel pressure-point discomfort on my hips and had to switch from side to side all night long but the other more unpleasant feeling was gone.
I thought we might be able to get away with just ordering a latex topper for the upside-down tempurpedic. So after reading a lot of info here I went with a 3" natural talalay in soft from Sleep EZ. (I believe their soft is 19-21 ILD.)
We got it this week and have had only 2 nights on it. When laying on it itās very comfortable and my husband is fine. But I think Iām sinking in too much. It almost feels the same or softer than the memory foam felt. I havenāt had the same pain at this point but my legs definitely feel a little something. I donāt know if itās my imagination since Iām obsessing over how it feels. So I plan to keep trying it for a while longer and maybe Iāll get used to it. I do tend to be the princess and the pea-ish so Iām worried that Iām never going to be able to find something perfect. Although the tempurpedic worked great for me so maybe weāll end up ultimately getting another one ā but after learning more about them Iād rather not.
As far as options I thought Iād ask now for any thoughts you might have if I donāt get used to it. Mailing it back to Arizona (weāre in Delaware) would be very expensive. I wondered if it continues to be ānot perfectā what the best bet is. Exchange it for something firmer? That seems like weād just be just rolling the dice again and have no real idea how firm to go. And ordering and sending back is way too expensive to do more than once.
Or I wondered if putting a mattress pad on it ā somewhat thick ā might reduce the sinking-in aspect of the latex. Possibly a wool one? Although a good king size mattress pad isnāt cheap either so I donāt want to keep spending money especially on something non-returnable.
From reading about people designing beds it seems like a 3" soft talalay layer on top isnāt unheard of. And since Iām somewhat on the lighter end of the spectrum it doesnāt seem like Iād be sinking in so much thatās Iād be out of alignment more than other people who have a soft top layer of latex and no complaints. Iām really puzzled at this point. I thought for sure the 3" topper was going to be the perfect solution.
Does anyone having any thoughts? Thank you in advance! And thank you also, Phoenix, for all of the amazing work youāve done on this forum. Itās really an incredible resource.
Hi sparky.
Welcome to our Mattress Forum!
Thank you for all the background information you provided which can certainly make it simpler to offer input and also thanks for your kind comments ā¦ I appreciate it!
Itās always nice when people coming here go through a few of the mattress basics and track down the possible cause of the āsymptomsā they are experiencing ā¦ what youāve described is certainly typical for the aging and breakdown of foams within a mattress which usually leads to sagging, postural issues, and the type of pains that you are describing.
This is certainly a creative approach that can buy you sometime before needing to replace your current mattress. You did not mention this but Iām assuming that youāve already checked the support system under your bed to rule out any bending or sagging under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it. Generally, foams wear out from the top down as the upper layers of a mattress are subject to more compression than the lower layers. While the bottom polyfoam (Yes! to your ā?ā :)) layer of the mattress would be in better shape than the top comfort layers Iād keep in mind that the Base layer(s) in all the Tempur collections from more than a decade ago used AirFlow System of convoluted foam which in theory helps the layers to breathe but in practice with a 15 year old mattress even if you get the comfort/support just right for you ā¦. the flipping of your mattress may somehow compromise the structural and support integrity you need for proper alignment. The new āconfigurationā with the firm 4" (which they used for many of their beds at the time) on top of the āmushedā memory foam can contribute to collapsing and bending to a certain extent of the poly layer into the āfurrowā created by the foam breakdown of the comfort layers. (The degree depends on many factors such as the polyfoam thickness and age, convolution dimensions: pinnacle base thickness and height, IFD and of course density)
I donāt know which Tempur model you own but it would be interesting to open the zipper and see if the comfort layer can be removed and replaced with the 3" of latex from Sleep EZ ā¦ this way youāll get a few more data points but Iād certainly give the now new set up a little longer to allow your body to go through the adjustment period before you decide the type of changes you may need based on your bodyās feedback.
You are very light which means that depending on your primary sleeping position you wonāt sink in as far into a foam material as people who are heavier and layer thickness also plays a role in the design of a sleeping system that is the most suitable for you. You may need to adjust the āstandardā layer thickness -/+ an inch or so to sink in just enough to relieve pressure without allowing the heavier hips to sink in too far. Only working with softness options instead of thickness options may not be enough for some people who are either more sensitive, smaller (where changes can have a bigger proportional effect relative to the body) or have a body type and weight distribution that is outside the āaveragesā. You can read more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here but this depends more on the specific construction and combination of materials in the mattress and on how well your testing or personal experience indicates the mattress āas a wholeā matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) than it does on just the thickness itself.
The balance between āallowingā the shoulders and hips to sink in enough to relieve pressure and at the same time āstoppingā the pelvis from sinking in too far and affecting spinal alignment is part of the art and science of all mattress construction this is why Iād suggest that you work closely with Sleep EZ as they have an excellent track record of finding great āout-of-the box solutionsā that involve using their products in combination with other products and making recommendations for any particular needs. As you can see this can get quite complex but again the three specifications of a foam material that control most of the pressure relief (along with layer thickness) are ILD/IFD, compression modulus, and point elasticity (and temperature sensitivity with memory foam) which together with the thickness of the softer layers create the pressure relieving ācradleā and needs to be balanced against itās āoppositeā which is support and alignment.
Iām looking forward to finding out what a few more nights of sleep on the new set up will bring ā¦ and of course any additional comments or questions you may have along the way that I or any of the Expert members of the site can help with.
Phoenix
Thank you very much for your reply, Phoenix.
I see your point about the flipped mattress possibly having sagging issues from the polyfoam now collapsing into the āspacesā weāve created in the memory foam - the mushed furrows. So for that reason I do only consider this a short-term fix and donāt want to spend too much money on the experiment before we give up and try to find a new mattress.
Iāll definitely give it more time for my body (and mind!) to adjust but last night I slept better than the previous nights. Iām hopeful.
If I decide to try to make any change Iāll check with Sleep EZ for their recommendation. When I talked to them originally they thought 3" was right because of the very firm surface it would be on. I guess 2" would allow us (more so my heavier husband I assume) to bottom out. So probably it would be an exchange for a firmer density ā but maybe there are other options that theyād suggest.
In the meantime can you give me your opinion on the idea of a mattress pad if I want to dampen some of the squishiness of the latex rather than switching to a firmer density? I was looking at posts on wool fleece versions but maybe that really defeats the purpose of the latex or cancels out too much of its plushness. And once it compresses it might even seem too firm at pressure points?
Thank you again for your very valuable guidance!
Hi sparky.
Thanks for your latest update ā¦. I am glad to hear that your sleep is improving
You are correct that a mattress pad or even a tighter protector ā¦. especially a wool one that will compress a bit more with use can have the effect you are seeking. Most of the wool pads and protectors have stretchy corners or sides so they wonāt bunch up while sleeping, but you can look for a tight pad/protector that wraps around all sides of your mattress to add a bit of extra stiffness. Thicker wool layers that are initially soft (and quite frankly nicer) will tend to compress and affect the feel of the layers underneath them over time more than thin ones .ā¦ Post #10 here has more information about mattress pads, protectors and the difference between them. Halfway through post #89 here thereās more about the pros and cons of different types of mattress protectors for those who want (or donāt) to affect the feel and performance of their mattress. You may wish to check out some of our members here who have wool pads/protectors and can also have a look at different types of mattress protectors here and here.
I hope this is helpful and Iām looking forward to any ongoing updates you have the chance to share.
Phoenix
When one refers to blended talalay latex, what does that actually mean?
David
Hello David,
Thank you for visiting The Mattress Underground. The term āBlendedā when is comes to latex foam (this applies to bot the Talalay and Dunlop process for making latex foam) has to do with the make up of the latex formula used to make the latex foam. Blended means that the latex used in the latex foam is a blend of natural and synthetic latex.
There are 2 types of the raw latex material component, natural latex which is harvested from the rubber tree (Hevea brasiliensis) and synthetic latex which is man-made, synthesized from petroleum. The core component of latex is a material compound called isoprene. Natural latex uses the naturally occurring organic compound produced in the rubber tree. Synthetic latex uses a man-made version of the isoprene compound. Blended latex is a mixture of the two types of latex. Blended latex is the most widely used formula type as it is seen to provide the benefits of each type of latex, specifically being more durable and more consistent while providing high levels of comfort and support.
TMU Admin
So Iāve decided on a latex mattress. However, Iām basically down to the Sleep on Latex, Spindle or Sleep EZ. The sleep on latex is the cheapest, and I canāt really tell what Iām giving up. The others are around $500 more. Is there something Iām missing? I see they are all listed as trusted members so it seems like Iām choosing between good/good/good, just want to make sure Iām not missing out on anything by spending more.
Hello again Phoenix,
Iāve taken some time to review all the suggested links from your previous reply, and weāve also logged another month of sleep on our ānewā latex mattress from Sleep Ez.
Our split king is 3 layers of 3" latex as follows:
Bottom layer both sides: firm Dunlop
Middle layer my side: medium Talalay, hubby has medium Dunlop
Top layer both sides: soft Talalay
The mattress sits on a plywood base in our bed frame, has a 1" wool cover and an additional quilted mattress pad I added for extra top cushioning.
After 60 days sleep on my configuration, I feel that I could be sinking too far into my middle layer of Medium Tallalay and wonder if changing to a medium Dunlop layer would make any difference. Would this be where the difference in ILDs between medium Dunlop and Talalay becomes significant?
My primary concern is whether the middle medium talalay layer on my side is sufficient support for a āgenerousā side sleeper, and would there be significant difference in changing it to a medium Dunlop layer?
I prefer a āsink inā feel for comfort, so have not really considered changing my top layer of soft Tallalay, but do have the option of changing to a Dunlop Soft if that would be more helpful than changing the middle layer.
We have 30 days remaining in our exchange window.
Recently we decided to swivel the mattress around so I could test hubbyās side with the medium Dunlop middle layer and although itās been only a week, my perception is a firmer feel of support. Is this my imagination, or is there enough difference between the specs for medium Dunlop and medium Talalay to be noticeable? I know the composition is different, but do the numbers indicate a significant variance? Do different retailers have different specs for their Dunlop and talalay or is this a standard industry specification?
Once again, I appreciate the time it takes for you to digest and respond to all the individual queries you receive.Your specific replies are very helpful in making (and fine tuning) the numerous decisions in the search for perfect rest.
Hi Q8canuck.
Glad to hear that you ālogged another month of sleep on your newā mattress with no major setbacks. It seems that your hubby still enjoys his well-crafted side but you still have some doubts as to your layering appropriateness.
Talalay will weigh less than Dunlop per cubic foot of material because it has more air in it and the same ILD Dunlop is denser than Talalay. This is the basis for the angel food cake vs the pound cake analogy on our site. It will certainly feel a bit more supportive to most people ā¦ with some more sensitive individuals reporting that this made just the right amount of difference to achieve the ideal softens/firmness for them, but of course, this is not an exact science because this is dependent on so many personal and other interrelated variables. The best way to ensure that this would work out for you is (ā¦as you did) to āborrowā the medium Dunlop from your hubbyās side and test it for long enough to ensure that the signals that your body sends you are consistent before you decide on the new layer exchange. You do not seem to experience pains at this time but I always tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to support as a primary concern so it is nice to see that you are reassessing the support issue especially as you also added a padā¦but Iād also keep in mind that sometimes our bodies take a little longer to āacceptā a change and get used to it, but once again only you can be the judge of this.
There is no real industry standard as it comes to ILDs for the different types of latex, from different sources, which may also use different ways of testing it. When it comes to ILDs your own experience is much more meaningful than the ILD numbers (which by themselves can act just as pointers because other specs such as the thickness of the layer, compression modulus, point elasticity and more are just as important to how soft or firm a mattress feels than ILD specs alone). There is more about this in post #2 here and there is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here All in all it is partly science and partly an art to āimagineā and predict how the layers of a mattress will interact together and with your individual body shape, weight distribution, and sleeping position. The good news is that you are already close enough to your ideal configuration and Iād make sure to seek a last word of advice from SleepEZ themselves as they would have all the information that would help make any meaningful comparisons between types of latex from different sources. (They have 4 different sources for their latex ā¦ and all would feel slightly different in the same ILD)
While my thoughts are of course generalizations and cannot replace your personal experience, I hope that they are helpful in deciding on this last eventual layering change. I am looking forward to any further updates you may have.
Phoenix
Above you wrote the following:
āThis also makes thicker, and in some cases more pressure relieving, comfort layers possible when needed or preferable without the same degree of risk that a thicker āpillowtopā or āeurotopā comfort layer will put your spine out of alignment.ā .
Just wondering if that means having a 3" soft comfort layer in the mattress proper vesus having the same 3" layer in a topper would be better for spinal alignment (all other layers being the same). If so, why is this?
Hi Demill1866,
Thanks or the question. Regarding the topper in the mattress proper, or used as a topper. The answer is not better or worse, only that it will feel different, and align you differently.
A topper within a mattress, connected to the other layers, and finished in a cover will be firmer than if one had a topper separate āon topā of the mattress. The ātopperā is loose, more flexible, and will feel and support differently than in the proper mattress. So depending on the personās weight, height, etc, could be better or worse.
Thanks
Sensei
I am getting ready to diy a latex mattress. I am considering using 3-3" āLatex Mattress Topper by Nature Pureā layers from foamorder.com . I purchased some 9" thick upholstery foam from them 3 years ago. They were very helpful and the sofa feels almost like the day I reassembled the cushions.
Has anyone bought latex from them?
I am a 5ā7" 142 lbs. side sleeper. I have a lot of shoulder pain when sleeping so I need a very plush mattress.
Their GOLS dunlop soft is rated at 11-18 ILDs. Is it even possible to make dunlop that soft???
My planned build would be med (24-28), soft, soft. I am assuming their latex is a bit firmer than advertised. Or perhaps firm, med, soft inside the encasement, and a soft 3" topper.
Any help or advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated!
I hate to hijack the topic but I have questions about the comfort layer as well. I have the Ultimate Hybrid in Soft (19 ILD). I sleep on my stomach and side and it gives me hip pain when I am on my side. I think the wool blend in the mattress cover makes it firmer and I also feel the coils make it firmer. I was given he advice on here and by Ken to get an additional 2 inch topper. I know Arizona Mattresses only has 19 ILD but I was wondering if I should get a 14 ILD or if that will be too soft. I just donāt know if another 19 ILD will be the same āfeelā as I have now or will help because there are more layers until the coils by adding another 2 inches, as well as the cover I got (I already purchased the cover as I bought a memory foam topper to try since they can be returned. My husband and I both hated sinking into the memory foam and not being able to move so I returned it) is a bamboo/cotton blend and not wool like the mattress cover. I have been obsessing about this topper for months now but I obsessed with the mattress and ended up slightly disappointed since it is a bit too firm. I just hate to end up with the wrong topper that I canāt return.
Hi Jill71rdh,
I responded on the other thread, but now you have returned the memory foam.
First of all, I understand your reluctance to not do āanother 3ā 19ild" and being a little concerned with 14ILD being too soft.
Adding another 3" 19ild will definitely change the feel of this mattressā¦100%. I canāt guarantee it will be the right fit for you, but it will change it. As itās talked about here in differential construction, you can use one ild product and just need to find the right height needs for your body.
You could use any of these - 3" 24ild , or 2 or 3" 28ild, ā¦ and use as a transition layer underneath the 19ild. This may then give you enough of the progressive feel that will help with hip pain. Please also read about progressive construction to build up layers properly.
Thanks
Sensei
Hi lotus14,
Sounds exciting, the start of the DIY latex mattress.
Hopefully some of the members here that have purchased from Foamorder will see your post and share their comments but in the meantime a forum search on foamorder (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about them as well. Even though they arenāt a member of the site (at least yet) ā¦ I think highly of Foamorder as well and I would certainly consider them to be a reliable supplier.
Well yes they can be that low, but the real question/problem is exactly what specific testing does the latex producer do to reach the ILD rating. The definition of ild on foamorderās site is a little too simplistic, and imo wrong. ILD, short for indentation force deflection, is an ASTM standard measuring the amount of force it takes to compress the material by 25% and the other is the amount of force it takes to compress the same material by 40% (which of course would produce higher numbers). Secondly is the producer using 6" height foam, and another uses 3" height foam, the ILDās are different for the SAME foam. There are a lot of other articles about this all over the TMU site.
Also make sure you check out the foamorder return policy before purchasing. Really it is hard to give anyone one hard and fst advice on the right 3" layers for you, only you can do that. My personal rule is the bottom 3" at firm is better for durability, then you need to go from there to see what best for you. Also if you are so inclined you can check out our trusted members as many of them have years of experience with DIY latex mattresses.
Good luck and let us know if you have any other questions, and let us know if you have any more questions.
Thanks
Sensei
Yes, I suspect foamorderās soft dunlop @ 11-18 ILD is similar to most supplierās soft dunlop @ 18-22. Iāll have to take that into account with the base layers as well. Hopefully Iām correct in this assumption!
Foamorderās return policy isnāt bad. At least they offer reduced shipping back. My real concern is that the latex will have a strong smell. GOLS dunlop shouldnāt, but I wonāt know until I already have about 200 lbs of it!
The things I like about foamorder is their amazing warranty - 15 years for a topper @ 1/2 inch indentation! Also, I couldnāt be happier with the sofa foam I bought from them 3 years ago.
My current thought for a very plush build is firm, med, soft, soft. Not sure if Iāll go with a heavier 9" encasement (DIY beddingās quilted) and make the last layer a topper, or if Iāll go 12" and DIY beddingās knit organic cotton and put everything inside.
Thanks for the help!
What about a 2 inch topper? With a bamboo/cotton cover? Would another 19 ILD give it a little more softness without changing the feel completely? Would a 2 inch 14 ILD be too soft? I am torn between the 2 in a 2 inch topper over my plush ultimate hybrid.
I currently have a 2" 20 ILD dunlop topper (SleepOnLatex) over a plush latex mattress. And yes, it does give a little more softness but nothing too radical. Great topper for the price.
With my limited experience a 2" 14 ILD topper might simply bottom out and do very little. So if I were going with 14 ILD Iād definitely want 3".
Who are you considering ordering from? Dreamfoamās topper link will take you to their āsister siteā mattresstopper.com (AKA Brooklyn Bedding). They only offer a 3" Talalay (soft, 19 ILD) but the good news is free shipping and free shipping on returns with no restocking fee.
For me, Iād rather stay away from talalay (having a bad experience with the smell) and stay with foamorderās GOLS dunlop. Also, foamorderās warranty is 15 years and mattresstopper.com is only 3.
Decisions, decisions!