[i]Hi all,
I greatly appreciate this site. It has taught me about mattress construction and, more importantly, opened my eyes to the overwhelming amount of smaller manufacturers which apparently tend to construct better quality beds for the money than those found at Mattress Firm and other major chains. Before reading through the guides on this site (I looked at all of them, I think), I would have assumed those online and small local brands were inferior simply by virtue of their lack of exposure and marketshare.
I have been having a rough time for a while finding the right sleep system, as I’ve been moving around. I’ve now settled for the moment and can buy the bed I want. I know that I like latex (hate memory foam), and prefer natural materials (wool/cotton/silk quilts, little to no petro-foams). I’m a combination sleeper who tends to default to side sleeping, and tend to like medium-firm or luxury-firm mattresses (I like support, but have to watch out for pressure issues on my shoulders on hips when on side/stomach).
Because I didn’t know to look elsewhere (at least here in the NYC area), I went to Mattress Firm. I originally wanted an Aireloom bed, which I tried at a regional chain in California called Ortho-mattress that seemed decent (they had some house-brand beds that seemed a decent value, including one horsehair model). Aireloom bed I liked there was $4000+ but seemed good quality (luxury firm that came with a reversible and removable latex topper that was several inches thick, hand-tufted). Ortho-mattress reminded me a bit of a regional/factory-direct company in CO called Denver Mattress Co. that had some decent house-brand stuff, and also sold Aireloom. They had Aireloom at Raymour and Flanigan as well, a furniture store chain that we have in NYC, but I didn’t find one I liked as much as the ones at Ortho-mattress (different lines/materials), and their salespeople didn’t know anything.
I ended up settling on a Kingsdown Select (their line for Mattress Firm) bed, the 14.5" Chardonnay, which is their firm. It has thicker gauge pocket coils (a lot of them, I don’t remember the exact number but it was well over 1000, I think 1400 or 1800, without micro-coils, as only the plush models have those), 1" of latex foam (don’t know which type), and then Joma wool quilt, with foam encasement. Probably some other foams in there as well, but it seemed the main comfort layer was the latex. It is also tufted, or at least appears to be. Kingsdown makes some cheaper beds I saw on Amazon that also appear tufted and say “tufted damasc cover” rather than “tufted construction” which makes me think, at those prices, maybe those tufts are just decorative. It is also zoned coils, I forget 3 or 5 zones.
The bed lists for $3k in queen but they always have some kind of perpetual promotion and in this case it was going for $2600 and I managed to apply some coupons and get it down to $2.2K. Not sure if that is a good value or not in reality, both compared to off-brands and to other Kingsdown lines that maybe aren’t marked up as much. Seems the overall look of the bed in the ticking and with the tufting is trying to appear premium (not sure if it actually is). The medium and plush models (they all seem to run a little soft to me) cost more, because they have thicker comfort layers and the addition of micro-coils.
In theory this could be a good bed for me, but after more research I realized a few things:
-I’m not sure yet if I prefer latex on coils (hybrid) or full latex (for both comfort and support layers). All the online options where you can customize the number and density and composition (talalay or dunlop) of latex layers, and even do a split bed, are intriguing. Some seem to have good zoning systems as well.
-Even if I wanted a coil/latex system, I’m not sure 1" latex is enough for the comfort layer, compared to at least 2" or 3." The wool quilt on the Kingsdown is lofty and helps a bit, but will probably compact over time.
-Even if I wanted a bed just like the Kingsdown, I may do better ito of quality and longevity buying something similar from a small manufacturer.
Problem is that the Kingsdown is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. I could probably call and cancel or postpone it, and take a few days to explore other options first, but I’m tempted to receive it and see how it goes. It is returnable, but I have to wait 21 days and then pay 20% plus about $100 in shipping. The upside is that at least I’d have something decent to sleep on for the next few weeks while I keep shopping/researching, and I might end up keeping it. My sleep now is only so-so.
I realized that Avocado has a store in Hoboken, NJ and Saatva has a showroom in Manhattan, so I was thinking I would head over there in the next few days to try out their beds in order to compare full latex to latex over coils and also to see if I prefer Talalay (Saatva) or dunlop (Avocado). I really can’t decide without trying in person. Once I know the bed type, latex type, and latex densities that work, I can go online to custom build a bed from one of several makers. I also found some other places in Manhattan: The Clean Bedroom (seems mid to upscale mattresses, natural materials, also sells ultra-lux Hastens), Sleepare (seems to do most of the simplified brands you’d buy online), and there is a Nest Bedding downtown on the Bowery.
I have also found there is a Vispring showroom, as well as showrooms for Savoir and Hastens in Manhattan (Vispring is expensive, but seems like CRAZY prices on the last two; beds starting at $10K+ and have beds up to $80K+. Ultra-high quality hand-made, custom, all natural fibers). Not looking to spend that kind of money, but just thought I’d share what I found. Seems the ceiling on mattresses goes quite high, although I’m sure there are significant diminishing returns after a point, like with anything. Like a Camry (great, functional) to an Audi (luxury, functional, mass-produced) to a Ferrari (super lux, specialized, very small market, semi-hand built) to a hand-built race car or F1 machine (totally bespoke, the pinnacle, ultra-specialized).
So I wanted to ask a few things:
-How bad is Kingsdown? Should I be very cautious about their quality, and skimpy use of latex (the med and plush/euro top use more, but only 2" and 3" respectively, if I remember correctly, probably b/c it is an expensive material). Most of the smaller makers who focus on latex seem to start at 3" for the comfort layer, plus offer more in a pillowtop or separate topper. Is the lack of latex made up for in a better spring system or elsewhere? I’m not sure, but based on the cutaway I saw, I don’t think the springs are done in a honeycomb. Do you think the bed at this price point is actually hand-tufted? Would you recommend definitely cancelling my order, or is it worth giving it a shot?
-Any thoughts on Aireloom and if they are worth revisiting? I think Macy’s and Jennifer convertibles carries them as well, but there are so many lines with different materials that I’m worried I won’t know what i’m buying unless I buy from a real mattress store or factory direct, if possible.
-I know now how to evaluate the quality of latex and other foams (more or less), but not coils, other than looking for honeycomb pattern or double-tempered or made in house (like Vispring). But 99% of coil beds just say “pocket coil.” Some of the smaller makers specify the brand of coil, or country of origin (like “German coils”), but that doesn’t mean anything to me. Is there a list of best coil brands (even then, I’d probably have to know the specific line or specs)? Or should I just assume that anyone on the approved vendor list here uses coils at least as good as those in a $2k to $3k Kingsdown? Does price just dictate coil quality, or do small makers use better coils for less money? In case if I go for a coil/latex system, I need to know how to decide which coils are good and cross-shop coil systems (I read the coil guide, which is great, but doesn’t cover this issue, as far as choosing between makes of pocket coils).
-I will ultimately go by feel when I try them, but some background on the pros and cons of a coil/latex hybrid vs full latex would be helpful. Which tend to be more supportive? Better quality? Longer lasting? Most of all, how do they tend to feel different from one another? Certainly the all latex beds are more expensive (at least for quality/thicker latex, and at least up until you to get to the all natural fiber horsehair beds), but I’m not sure if that means they are necessarily more supportive or comfortable than a good coil/latex setup.
-Assuming all layers are the same density, what changes when you add latex layers? Some online sellers let you build out your mattress and choose 2, 3, or 4 comfort layers, going from, for example, 8" to 14" thick. I understand it lets you customize layer densities, but if you kept the same density throughout is there any advantage to just building a thicker bed? Will it be more supportive, or, on the contrary, will you sink in deeper? Are thicker mattresses usually better (seems thickness and plushness correlates with price, as more layers of foam or coils are added)?
-I am wondering about double-layered coils. I noticed some bed systems (like Saatva and Berkeley Ergonomics, the latter of which seem well-engineered) stack 2 layers of coils, one smaller than the other, in the support layer. Any comment on if this is a good design? Is it better than a single coil layer, or just a different way to go? I think Vispring does this as well (probably in their case b/c it is flippable). Is it necessarily more or less supportive (I imagine not, depending on factors like coil gauge and foam densities)?
-Any other NYC area (including Hudson Valley/Catskills) rec’s for good local/regional makers or factory stores where I can go try beds?
-Lastly, do you think it’s worth spending extra for a horsehair bed? I have seen some off-brand/house brand options in the $4000 to $5000 range (most name brand makers like Vispring seem to start at $7k or $8k for horsehair models) that I might consider if it would significantly improve my sleep over a quality coil/latex or full latex mattress. Otherwise I would like to stay in the $2000 to $3000 range (or less, if possible, if I can still get great sleep and good quality). I could maybe stretch to $4000 for a latex or coil/latex bed, but only if it had some kind of exceptional engineering or exotic materials and I really thought it was worth it, as it seems that most from the small and online makers go for between $1500 and $3000 for a queen, depending on construction and options.
Right now I am sleeping on an old full foam mattress I got a long time ago from a NYC company called Dixie Foam that is relatively thin (about 8"), with about 6" of latex (I don’t know the type) and about 2" of memory foam - you can flip depending which side you want. I am sleeping on the latex side. It is not great and leaves a lot to be desired, however I prefer it to the relatively lower-quality coil spring beds I was sleeping on (something like a Beautyrest Pressure Smart, back when it was Simmons or Sealy or whatever), which are also old and somewhat worn out. The latex seemed to hold up well. I also had a latex bed from Ikea years ago that cost around $1000 at the time that I enjoyed. Now that I am a little older with more back and knee issues and am a more sensitive sleeper, I think a higher quality latex bed with more engineering (more layers/zoning, better quality latex) would work well for me, as I enjoy how it lifts and aligns my body (I don’t like sinking in to the mattress much, or materials which are hot or restrictive).
A lot of info here (that seems to be the style on the site, which works for me), so probably best to reply to each point inline.
Hoping for individual replies to each query, but to summarize: should I gamble on the Kingsdown or can I definitely do better in that price-range; how to evaluate coil quality, double vs single coil support layers, and choose between full latex or latex/coil; and should I hold out for horsehair (is it really superior support/elasticity/breathability or is it just preference and prestige)?
Thanks so much!
PS I didn’t cancel in time and took delivery of the Kingsdown. Might be good to have in the interim in case it takes a while to get the bed I want. I will most likely return it eventually, will have to eat the restocking fee, but that’s ok. Curious to see how it sleeps. Noticed some bad VOC off-gasing that really turned me off and made me realize I don’t want a bed with ANY off-gasing foams or glues, so latex only, as far as foams go. Feel a bit duped by the marketing implying “natural” materials (b/c of joma wool quilt and a 1" layer of dunlop latex). Should have known though, since cutaway showed some other mystery foams under the latex as well as a foam perimeter around the mattress. Would still appreciate answers to the questions, as they are all still relevant to my choosing the right bed going forward.
PPS Kingsdown mattress has been off-gasing horribly, strong smell at first, only partly dissipated a day later. I will try sleeping on it to see what it’s like, but even if I like it I almost certainly will return it because I realized it uses toxic materials (probably the foam and/or adhesives) and because it is not maintainable. On principle, knowing what I know now, I don’t think anyone should buy a bed that doesn’t have a zippered case that allows you to access and replace the layers (unless it’s an ultra lux bed like vispring that will probably last forever anyway, and/or is flippable). It’s planned obsolescence and is totally unnecessary. While this probably isn’t a bad bed, I think I could do much better for the money from a small maker, maybe or maybe not ito of comfort, but definitely ito of longevity (can open mattress and replace layers as they wear out), adjustability (can open mattress and re-arrange/replace layers with different materials, thicknesses, or densities), warranty (20+ years instead of 10, at least on full latex beds), and health (no off-gasing and toxic chemicals, and, if I want organic fabrics on quilt/case). The 20% restock and shipping fee also isn’t great now that I realize that so many great small brands have a complete return policy with no fee and either free or limited return shipping cost (although you may have to box them up yourself).
! Thanks for your question(s).