Hi Phoenix–
Your site is wonderful but a bit overwhelming.
My husband has been complaining of back pain for months now which brought us to considering changing our mattress. I had a very bad buying experience with the last purchase (I was the idiot who got talked into the risk-free purchase of the most expensive mattress in a chain store — a tempurpedic at Sleepy’s — which I returned after 59 of my 60 days to find out that the money back guarantee was really an in-store credit.) Anyway - on the opposite end of the spectrum - I am now paralyzed with paranoia.
After studying this and other sites - I am really worried that there will be no solution for us as a couple. My husband is a 6’6" fireman with no body fat and a preference for a firm mattress. During mattress trials in the stores, what he “liked” I found very firm and uncomfortable. Ones I liked (even generously only trying the medium firm mattresses to compromise) he thought felt “soft”
I am 5’3", 130 and more generously padded than he. Based on your tutorial - I suspect he is a bit brain-washed (since he has back pain) to thinking unless a mattress feels like a bed of nails in the store, he will continue to have back pain. I’m not sure how to get him to accept that the space filling of a comfort layer does not mean the mattress is soft or unsupportive.
Heat isn’t a true problem, nor is motion isolation. Budget is not a concern either.
I’m inclined to think we need a mattress comprised of a high ILD natural latex for support with a softer Latex layer on top for comfort.
Figuring out what numbers and what thickness — I’m not sure how to do that. You are certainly right that the mattress salesmen we’ve met have no idea how to direct us.
I guess I’m not opposed to coils for support - nor am I opposed to a different material for comfort. I’m sort of stuck —— is there some place I can plug in my preferences for general firmness and materials to see
what mattresses are recommended to at least try?
I’m not sure what you’ve read since you found the site but just in case you haven’t read it yet … the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.
Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
Outside of PPP (which is the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see this article) regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new).
You may have already read this already as well but it may give you some information that you can pass along to your husband.
“Support” is often misunderstood because the goal of a “supportive” mattress is to keep the spine and joints in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more (softer) and some parts of the body to sink in less (firmer) and this will vary on an individual basis based on body type and sleeping style. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together.
It’s not unusual at all for a couple to have different needs and preferences and here is more information in the first part of post #2 here about some of the different ways that can be used to accommodate a couple that have very different body types or different needs and preferences in a mattress and there is also more information about the pros and cons of split firmness mattresses in post #2 here that may be helpful.
One of the most effective “shortcuts” that can help cut through much of the confusion when you are buying a mattress is to focus first on finding and dealing with knowledgeable and experienced retailers and/or manufacturers that have your best interests at heart (and aren’t just interested in selling you anything that they can convince you to buy) before you begin to research which specific mattresses you are most interested in. These are the ones that already know what you would otherwise need to learn (including the information in many of the links I listed) and understand the importance of choosing a mattress that is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP and knowing what is inside any mattress that you are considering so you can make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you are considering that would be a reason for concern in terms of durability. They can provide you with the type of information and guidance that can help you make the best possible choice. Who you choose to deal with can be one of the most important parts of a successful mattress purchase.
There are really only two ways to know whether a mattress is a good “match” for either one or both of you which is either careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal experience when you sleep on the mattress.
If you are also considering online options and you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.
Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the quality/durability guidelines here relative to your weight range … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice (see this article). The best way to know which type of materials or which type of mattresses you tend to prefer in general terms will be based on your own testing and personal experience because different people can have very different preferences.
While I can certainly help with “how” to choose … It’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don’t involve what you will “feel” on a mattress, and help with “how” to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress, manufacturer, or combination of materials is “best for you” regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or whether anyone else (including me) would have the same criteria or circumstances or would make the same choice.
Unfortunately nobody has a crystal ball that can predict which specific mattress or combination of materials you will like best or that you will sleep best on with any certainty based on specs or “theory at a distance” and I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they do. It just doesn’t exist.
Subject to confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list you wish to deal with is completely transparent (see this article) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines I linked earlier in this reply … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Minneapolis/St Paul area are listed in post #2 here.
In its simplest form choosing the “best possible” mattress for any particular person really comes down to FIRST finding a few knowledgeable and transparent retailers and/or manufacturers (either locally or online) that sell the types of mattresses that you are most interested in that are in a budget range you are comfortable with and that you have confirmed will provide you with the all the information you need about the materials and components inside the mattresses they sell so you will be able to make informed choices and meaningful comparisons between mattresses and then …
Careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) to make sure that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP … and/or that you are comfortable with the options you have available to return, exchange, or “fine tune” the mattress and any costs involved if you can’t test a mattress in person or aren’t confident that your mattress is a suitable choice.
Checking to make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you are considering relative to your weight range that could compromise the durability and useful life of the mattress.
Comparing your finalists for “value” based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
Update: My husband and I, on your advice, went to several local mattress manufacturers.
We settled on The Original Mattress Factory (the Minnetonka store) and Jed there was a very big help.
Compared with other stores, we were very impressed with his honesty, his knowledge and his transparency.
We walked into the store expecting to test a latex mattress and not expecting to buy anything.
We feel significantly more knowledgable about what it takes to build a mattress and are now the proud owners of a new traditional coil mattress.
I have been studying mattresses since it became obvious that we needed a new one (particularly with my previous experience getting a bad deal on a bad mattress) I had come to the conclusion that springs as the support layer were a bit dated and that the progress made in that area was from low coil number to higher coil number – low gauge steel to higher gauge steel and to individually pocketed coils.
I am a mattress layman — what do I know?
Jed had a very rudimentary display in his store of the Original Mattress Factory Coil construction (and it’s evolution) beside a high end individually wrapped pocket coil mattress. In their construction - the steel coils are tied together and when you depress the coils, to some extent the coils around them need to respond as well. In the example of the individual pocketed coils - if you press in one spot - that is the only coil that depresses… I suppose the argument that is made by those manufacturers is that this contours uniquely to everyone’s body… but truthfully - this is the SUPPORT layer - it needs to be subtly forgiving but durable. Taxing one spring under my butt over 10 years makes no sense to me.
I don’t have the mattress yet - but ultimately the salesman knew the product - he could quote me the ILDs and rebound of every foam in the place. He knew the steel gauge and the coil count on every mattress. There were not an overwhelming number of mattresses to chose from. Their warranty is world class, their return policy indicates that they are interested in repeat customers and word of mouth (return any mattress in a year for any other mattress in the store and pay 25% of the cost of the lower priced mattress) These mattresses are made in the US.
Thank you for your guidance in finding a mattress. I’ll let you know how it feels at home.
ADDENDUM: I am guilty of not reading the fine print – you can exchange the mattress within a year for another mattress in the store, but you can not return the mattress for any amount of money – not even the horrific “restocking fee” other stores trick you with. Perhaps I’ll learn my lesson in 10 years when this mattress needs to be replaced.
Thanks for taking the time to share your detailed comments and feedback and for letting us know what you ended up deciding … I appreciate it.
Most importantly I think you made a good quality/value choice … and congratulations on your new mattress
You’re certainly correct that an innerspring is a support layer but it’s also true that every layer and component in a mattress will also have some effect on the feel and performance of all the other layers and components above and below it and on the mattress “as a whole” and different types of innersprings have different properties that can affect whether any specific mattress that uses them will be a good “match” for the specific needs and preferences of a particular person.
Steel innersprings are generally a very durable mattress component but the quality of the foam above the innerspring is generally the weakest link of the mattress and innerspring mattresses that use lower quality materials in the comfort layers is the biggest reason for the early softening, sagging, and breakdown that you read about so often … not the innersprings themselves. An innerspring mattress with high quality and durable materials above the innerspring can certainly be a very suitable and durable choice and they are still the most popular type of mattress sold in the industry. Original Mattress Factory also uses higher quality/density and more durable foam layers than most of the mainstream manufacturers in the industry which is one of the reasons I think highly of them.
I’m looking forward to any additional comments you have the chance to share once you’ve received your new mattress and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.
Not good. I will say that the salesman was very clear that any mattress will take some getting used to and has to break in. Our mattress purchase was born of my husband’s constant complaints that he was sleeping poorly and that it was “too soft”. (In retrospect, he’s a fireman with aches primarily from his job and possibly not at all from the mattress; The mattress is 10 years old and he is brainwashed by the idea that men with back aches need to sleep on extra firm mattresses) I compromised in the store on a mattress that I thought was a bit too firm thinking I could add a topper to my side. Again - I am aware that there will be an adjustment period- but I got up this morning and then had to nap on my couch. My back is killing me.
I’ve read a number of the posts on this site regarding toppers. Prior to being so schooled in density - I’ve had varying success with toppers. I ordered a 3 inch “memory foam” topper for a futon that was too firm and that combination was magical. Of course I don’t know what the material actually was. When I later ended up with another “too firm” mattress - I thought a 4 inch topper would certainly be better than 3… (again years ago and who knows what the material and density was) and it was a catastrophe.
In a perfect world, I would be a back sleeper - but I find I have to turn because I am uncomfortable early …
When I side sleep, my contoured memory foam pillow (perfect for back sleeping) isn’t sufficiently high to relieve shoulder pain so I have to roll up a feather pillow on top of my current pillow to endure side sleeping. Back and forth all night (throw in menopausal cover tossing and it makes for a pretty unrestful experience)
I read a pretty long string on this site from a woman who was layering all kinds of materials inside all kinds of mattress covers… it sounds too complex. Is it possible I get a 3 inch latex topper ~22 IDL and live happily ever after?? Where would a wishful buyer reliably find such a thing?
I’m sorry to hear that your initial experience on your mattress wasn’t particularly good and I hope that any softening during the break in and adjustment period is enough for you to sleep well on your mattress.
When you buy a new mattress you will generally sink into it either more or less than your old mattress so it’s not unusual to need a new pillow with a different profile as well. A suitable pillow is an essential part of good alignment for the head and neck and upper body because the gap between the head and the mattress and the curve of the cervical spine needs to be supported just like all other parts of the spine. Like mattresses … there are certain “needs” that depend on body type and sleeping positions but with pillows, personal preferences play a more important role because the face is much more sensitive to textures, temperature, smells, and other more subjective “feel” based properties of a pillow. There is more about choosing pillows in the pillow thread here.
If the only issue with a mattress is that it is too firm and there are no soft spots or sagging in the mattress then a good quality topper can certainly be an effective way to add some additional softness, “comfort” and pressure relief to your sleeping system but the only way to know for certain whether a specific mattress/topper combination is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP is based on your own careful testing or personal experience on the combination. If you can’t test the combination in person then there will always be always some risk and uncertainty involved in adding a topper because the specifics of the mattress itself along with your own body type, sleeping position, and preferences can affect which specific topper would be a suitable choice on any specific mattress.
There is more information about choosing a topper and a link to the better online sources I’m aware of in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market) can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. A good exchange/return policy can also reduce the risk of an online topper purchase so I would make sure you are comfortable with the options you have available after a purchase just in case the topper you choose doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.
If a mattress/topper combination turns out to be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP then having a separate topper also has the advantage of being able to replace just the topper without replacing the entire mattress if it softens or breaks down before the upper foam layers in the mattress (which is very likely because the upper layers of a sleeping system tend to soften or break down before the deeper layers) or if your needs or preferences change over time. A suitable topper can also help extend the useful life of the mattress underneath it because it will absorb much of the compression forces that can soften or break down the top layers of the mattress underneath it over time.
It’s a bit challenging to find the right sales people - but I will recommend Moss Envy. The store (the one I went to if there are others) is in Uptown by the Wholefoods. The staff there were very helpful. I went, in truth, to feel the latex to get a sense if I could salvage this too-firm innerspring mattress purchase by adding a latex topper. The Savvy Rest Serenity Bed was heavenly - and had I not just purchased a non-returnable innerspring bed from the Original Mattress Factory- I would have found my dream bed. Its hard to know, as Phoenix will say, how the comfy latex (at 9 inches of variable density) will translate as a 3 inch topper on an innerspring mattress… and what density will optimize it (if any) However, I loved how it felt. I then tracked down a site where I could feel different densities of Dunlop latex as toppers (or as a DIY mattress) Melissa is the Minneapolis rep for DIY Natural Bedding and she markets this product out of her home. She was very patient and very knowledgable. The choices of densities of the latex were greater at DIY than Moss Envy (DIY: soft, medium, firm, extra firm, hard, extra hard vs. Moss Envy: soft, medium, firm) DIY only deals in Dunlop process -so if you’re convinced you need Talalay - Moss Envy has both. Talalay is made by a more elaborate/expensive process - so you will pay more - but in truth- in the store, I prefered the Dunlop. To me - the Talalay was like sponge cake (easy to compress) where the Dunlop at the same density felt like it pushed back a bit more. Anyway - I would have walked out of Moss Envy with a bed for $3700 (according to the sales lady - the Savvy Rest bed really doesn’t go on sale) cotton ticking and no mattress platform (box springs not recommended). If I hadn’t painted myself in a corner - I would put together a similar bed with wool quilted ticking for $1980. DIY will let you return/exchange toppers at your leisure (although Melissa did mention that the process is a bit onerous) The very best thing about this bed - wherever you get it - it will be customized on one side for you and on the other for that person who sleeps next to you. You can expect to get 15 or 20 years out of the latex and you can switch the layers and therefore the feel any time you need.
If you live in Minneapolis and are considering Latex - go to Moss Envy
and/or call Melissa at DIY Natural Bedding at: (612) 314-3298 (she said I could put her number)
Thanks for taking the time to share your Minneapolis comments and feedback … I appreciate it :).
You are certainly dealing with two of the more knowledgeable retailers in the area and like you I think particularly highly of DIY Natural Bedding as well.
Did you end up purchasing a topper for your mattress?
Husband wants the one density you have to write to the owner to acquire: extra hard. I await her response on how to do that and then will purchase. When the toppers come (mine medium, his extra hard) I’ll see if this bed is a salvage for me. I think if I’m going to have to put this brand new innerspring mattress on Craig’s list - I might as well start with some layers and then build myself a bed.
If any of your readers local to Minneapolis want my brand new King Orthopedic Pillow Top set with box springs
(cylinders added to firm up edge) GREAT PRICE AVAILABLE. : )
