Below are the Specs of a Mattress at one of my local mattress stores:
Organic Cotton Latex 10″ Mattress
Features:
10″ Mattress Profile
Organic cotton flat cover
3″ 18 IFD latex
3″ 2.4 density comfort layer
5″ 2.4 density base foam
120 Day sleep trial
Made in the USA
Is there a difference between the 3" of 2.4 density comfort layer and 5" of 2.4 density base foam?
Thanks
Hi js5g,
While the density of the foam is the same (I’m assuming these are both polyfoam layers), there is a strong possibility that there is a difference in the ILD (softness) properties and formulation of these two foam layers. It is common for the layer above the base foam to be a bit softer, or sometimes sculpted to increase airflow. This would be a question that your local retailer should be able to answer for you.
The most important thing is the density of these foams, which is of a higher quality, at 2.4 lb. The softness of the foams isn’t particularly meaningful as a quality measure, and since the product is local you should be able to try it in person to see if fits with your personal PPP, which is the most important indicator of applicability for yourself.
Overall, from the information you provided, it appears that there are no “weak links” in this mattress and it uses componentry that is high quality.
Phoenix
First of all those layers don’t add up - 3" plus 3" plus 5" = 11 inch. It sounds to me like you are purchasing 8 inches of foam with a 3" latex topper. So if you were hoping for an organic natural bed, this is not it. If you know you buying foam with a topper and you are fine with that, the 5 inch foam is probably firm and the 3 inch is medium firm and the latex is soft. This is just for comfort so if you find the mattress the right comfort level for you, it really doesn’t matter what the densities are of the foam.
If you are looking for an all natural mattress be very careful. I thought I was careful and I was duped by greenwashing. I bought an “organic latex mattress” that was chemical foam with a latex topper, This is not an organic mattress. An all natural latex mattress would be all 10 inches being DUNLOP latex.
Good luck!
Hi geesahn,
Thanks for your comments.
Many mattresses, depending upon the height of the border panel., will have a finished height less than the total sum of the foams contained within. This is especially true with foams used in a quilt panel (this mattress does not have a quilted top) and those that are tufted. Also, depending upon where the measurement of the total height was taken (side or top crest), there can be a variation. Unless there is a large discrepancy (a total height listed at 15" but only 12" of componentry listed) I wouldn’t have a major concern.
This is indeed a mattress with a polyfoam core with latex on top, but not as a separate topper. I don’t think there was any confusion regarding that.
Again, this was not the focus of js5g’s questions, nor do I think there was a supposition that this was an “organic natural bed”. The cover is listed as organic cotton, which could mean that either the cotton used in the cover is organic certified and it uses other materials, or it could be a GOTS certified organic cotton cover. Those specifications were not listed nor a question that js5g had about the product.
You’re making some suppositions here of which you have no confirmation, and also making an incorrect statement. You would have no way of knowing what the “softnesses” would be of each polyfoam layer, as that information wasn’t provided. While it is true that many manufacturers will use a firmer base foam and then perhaps a progressively lower ILD above that, other manufacturers will use the same or higher ILDs with their upper layers. Only the local retailer/manufacturer would be able to answer that question for js5g. Additionally, your comment about density not mattering couldn’t be more incorrect. Density is the most important indicator we have of the quality of polyfoam, so knowing that these two layers are a better qualiy 2.4 lb. is extremely meaningful.
I’m sorry you were either not provided complete details or didn’t investigate fully the mattress you purchased and bought something that wasn’t what you desired. There is also more information in post #2 here and the more detailed posts and information it links to about safe, natural, organic, “chemical free”, and “green” mattresses and mattress materials that can help you sort through some of the marketing information, greenwashing and terminology that you will encounter in the industry.
An all natural latex mattress would be all 10 inches being DUNLOP latex.
This is also not correct. “natural” and “organic” (and I believe you mean GOLS organic certified by this) are two different things. Both Talalay latex and Dunlop latex can be made in 100% Natural (NR) versions, and there is Dunlop latex that can also GOLS certified. There’s a little more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that talk about the differences between these items.
I realize you are trying to be assistive and potentially trying to help someone avoid the mistake you made, but I don’t think there was any supposition of the product in question being “natural” or “organic”. Also, some of the information you’re providing is incorrect, so I had to address this, as thousands of people comb through the forum and they might see your statements and believe them to be “fact”, when in this case some of them were not.
Phoenix
Thank you Phoenix. The reason I thought it was important to point out that this wasn’t an all natural bed is because the poster posted the title of the bed from the supplier as “Organic Cotton Latex 10"Mattress”. Given that this is the title of the bed when the bed is actually not an organic cotton latex bed rather it is a mattress with organic cotton and latex as only components of the bed, I figured it was worth pointing out as greenwashed titles can confuse many people.
The reason I can assume that the second layer of foam is softer than the core is because it is listed as a comfort layer, and then I can say the latex layer is soft because its 18ild. Beyond that, you are right, I don’t know why density of the foam would be important if it’s comfortable, I don’t really know anything about polyfoam I only know about latex.
Yes indeed there is apparently this magical Talalay that is all natural. However, on the general market almost all of the “all natural” latex that you find can still be blended with synthetic up to 20% I believe. I have spoken to manufacturers of latex who disagree that there is an all natural Talalay, that the process alone implies a synthetic and that it isn’t possible, however on Arizona they do speak of an all natural Talalay. My point is that if you are out in the retail world and looking for an organic latex bed, the best way to guarantee that would be dunlop latex because there is so much synthetic talalay out there I just don’t know how you would know for sure what you are getting.
Hi geesahn,
I appreciate your cautiousness, although I don’t think anyone was making the assumption this was an all-latex organic certified mattress.
The term “comfort layer” is just a label for a separate layer of foam within the mattress, and in and of itself has no meaning or representation of a specific ILD/IFD by itself or when used in conjunction or relation to any other piece of foam. This layer could just as easily be referred to as a “transition layer”, “secondary layer”, “2nd layer” or “sub-support layer”. All are terms that have no meaning, except to differentiate and label, just the same as “comfort layer”. Making assumptions, especially with componentry specifications, is something I work very hard at avoiding, as this site is dedicated to providing objective advice.
Here I have to correct you again, as you are stating what you believe, which is totally incorrect, and in doing so someone could read this and consider it a fact, which it isn’t.
100% natural Talalay means that 100% of the rubber in the latex core is natural rubber (as opposed to synthetic rubber or SBR) and by “convention” these are usually referred to as 100% natural latex (100% NR) meaning that all the rubber that is used to make the foam is natural. All latex (Dunlop or Talalay) also uses other chemical ingredients besides just the liquid rubber to make the foam which includes gelling agents, curing agents, soaps, accelerators, fillers in some cases, antioxidants, and other ingredients in their formula. The specific formula that each latex manufacturer uses is proprietary and a closely guarded secret. If there are no fillers used in the formulation then the natural latex content could generally be 95% or higher.
This would apply to all manufacturers that use 100% natural latex in their mattresses (Dunlop or Talalay) … there is no latex foam of any kind that only has 100% natural rubber in the formula because it wouldn’t be possible to make the foam. There are only two manufacturers of 100% natural Talalay latex in the western world (Talalay Global and Radium) and neither of them use SBR (synthetic latex) in their 100% natural formulations.
It is true that most of the Talalay latex you are likely to encounter is blended (SBR/NR) and as such it would be 70 SBR and 30% NR.
This may be a manufacturer “splitting hairs” and speaking correctly to the fact that there are of course chemical ingredients involved in making latex foam. The term 100% Natural refers to the actual rubber/latex component of the finished foam, as I mentioned above. As there are only two manufacturers of Talalay latex in the western world, it would be interesting to know of with whom you spoke at these latex manufacturers who stated that a product they produce isn’t what they represent it to be and in fact doesn’t exist.
And they would be correct. That is the 100% Natural (NR) Talalay.
[quote]
My point is that if you are out in the retail world and looking for an organic latex bed, the best way to guarantee that would be dunlop latex because there is so much synthetic talalay out there I just don’t know how you would know for sure what you are getting
[/quote].
You “know what you’re getting” by becoming educated about latex (which is easily accomplished on this forum) and then inquiring about the componentry in any mattress you’re considering. If you are only looking for latex foam that is Global Organic Latex Standard (GOLS) certified, only a few Dunlop latex manufacturers produce such a product. And even so, that doesn’t mean that the mattress would be a GOTS/GOLS organic certified finished product (if such a certification was important to someone), nor better quality than a product without such certifications. I linked to definitions about this in my previous reply.
There’s no reason that Talalay latex couldn’t be manufactured to meet GOLS standards (I’ve spoken with several latex formulators about this), but the fact is that there simply isn’t the demand for such a product that would justify the millions of dollars for the appropriate separate pouring/curing/fabricating facilities. And Radium would argue that their 100% NR Talalay, which is Cradle to Cradle GOLD certified, meets the most stringent VOC/harmful substance testing available.
Regardless, I think we’ve both addressed ad nauseam your fears of anyone reading this thread that they would confuse the mattress in question that jsj5g mentioned as being “organic”. 
Phoenix
Thank you, great information! You explained a lot of my questions about Talalay. Thanks again for your service
Hi geeshan,
You’re welcome. I’m glad you found the information helpful.
Phoenix