Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply Phoenix! I did reach out to both companies, and got more human interaction from FSF. They were great, but ultimately the set up was going to be too hard for me in my current condition, and if a return was needed, impossible.
My Zenhaven arrived today and itâs not love at first test, but Iâm willing to give it a try for a while and consider bugging them for a topper if it comes to that. The pressure under the shoulder feels too strong. It didnât have the immediate âahhhâ factor of any of the Pure Talalay Bliss beds, thatâs for sureâŚI was hopeful but ultimately not surprised. I think it maybe could with a topper. It feels a lot firmer than the many sites that list it as a 4.5. As in, it gives enough that I feel fairly aligned, but the feeling under my hip and shoulder is one of pressure, not weightlessness.
I see what you are saying on the salesâŚit appears many of the âPresidentâs Dayâ sales are still in full swing (I revisited several sites to help my Dad choose a bed).
One thing I considered after I bought the bedâŚmy major motivation was two fold: to find a great bed for side sleeping, and to find a non-toxic option. But, it occurred to me afterwards that I probably could have gotten a hunk of polyurethane-laced, fire-retardant doused mattress, then encased it in a good mattress protector to keep the ânastiesâ inside. I feel like I sacrificed some of the side sleeping comfort to get all-natural when maybe that wasnât necessary.
But, really gotta try it to say! I will report back. Thank you for your help! I certainly agree trying and buying is the best way to learn. I knew I might have been picky, sorta wish Iâd started on the âfree returnsâ end of the spectrum (where most of the options are cheaper anyway) but I felt reasonably sure Iâd like this oneâŚ
I took 5 days off of work to devote to careful research on mattressesâhere, in stores, and elsewhere online. I generally sleep okay in hotels and on guest beds, so while I definitely think there are differences between mattresses, I had a hard time telling most of the ones in the stores apart in any sort of meaningful way and figured anything new would be an improvement on my old mattress.
My old mattress was a Simmons Beautyrest Angelique handed down from my parentsâ second home (which sounds fancy but was part of a multi-location job.) It had been slept on for about 26 weekends. When I got it, the pillowtop was pretty impacted and overall the bed was a little saggy, but quite fluffy and poofy. I slept on it for about 7 years until I just couldnât deny that the pillowtop was completely compressed and my hip was digging in enough that I was making a v-shape from head to toe. It had started to feel saggy but pressure-y and I figured it was time to replace it. I did sleep well thoughâasleep within minutes, one bathroom break, waking up rested (as rested as you get with fibro) 8-9 hours later. But, I figured misalignment could contribute to my pain issues.
At the stores I loved the feel of the Pure Talalay Bliss beds, although the Beautiful model felt way too saggyâŚlike it would be comfy but not supportive. The rep at Zenhaven told me their bed would be a little firmer and made from the same material, which sounded perfect. I also was interested in a non-toxic aspect for a variety of reasons, although I will take something toxic if it makes me sleep. Not sleeping is toxic too.
I disliked the dead feel of the memory foam beds I tried in store, and the rest (hybrids) all sort of felt like variations on a theme. I liked a pillowtop feel, but was wary of it breaking down before the bed did.
I was determined to be a good customer and give the Zenhaven a fair shot, but 10 minutes into going to bed last night I just didnât feel like I could make it another 10. (Didnât have another option, though.) I felt hard pressure on my hip and shoulder and no support under my waist. Is this bed just NOT for side sleepers? It didnât feel âluxury plushâ at all. I didnât feel entirely stable on my side either, like I had to hold myself in that position more than I did on my old bed.
I finally fell asleep after an hour, woke up every hour for 4 hours, and then thought, Iâm so uncomfortable Iâll just get up. Instead, I realized Iâd be way too exhausted today, and pulled out a narrow strip of egg crate I use for camping. This made the bed more bearable and I drifted off for an extra hour or two. I couldnât wait to get out of bed this morning. Iâm quite sore, although not in the agony I expected for how uncomfortable I felt.
Iâm not sure if I can do the adjustment period. How long do I have to give it? This bed felt horrible after 10 minutes and just as horrible waking up. I canât believe they only have a 5% return rateâŚhow can people stand this? What is wrong with me? It feels so different, so much worse than anything I gravitated to in a store. I donât see how Iâll get used to it or how it could break in enough.
I donât even know where to start overâŚthis choice was so very considered and I did such a bad job! If this is a âsoft bedâ (considered 4.5 on most scales)âŚwhat do I need? If this is a high-end luxury bedâŚwill the other ones be even worse? Are you just supposed to put a topper on everything these days? This bed felt like it had no top, no⌠âfluff factor.â Part of me wonders if this makes sense from a durability standpoint, but is like wearing the sole of a shoe without the insertâŚ
The one thing that gives me a little hope is the clerk at our mattress mill. She said if she chooses a bed that feels good to her body right away, her body doesnât feel so good waking up. If she chooses one that feels a little too firm, her body feels great waking up. Maybe I could adjust into that? I donât know. How long do I really need to give this? I thought the adjustment period would be a thing, but not like a torture thing.
Thanks for tolerating my distress! Iâm sleep deprived and really feeling emotional about thisâŚgetting sleep to a good place is so key to a fibro sufferer and the thought of my perfectly comfy (albeit quite shot) old bed sitting in a landfill right now is just killing me. Although Iâm trying to tell myself it would be quite gross at this point with 7-9 years of dust, mites, etcâŚ
Sorry to hear that you find the Zenhaven mattress uncomfortable especially as you had such high expectations.
Of course, you could go with a DIY option if you have the inclination to experiment with this, but .but it seems that you have a bit of a learning curve ahead of you. Generally I would strongly suggest avoiding the temptation of trying to design your own mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) and instead work closely with the retailers and manufacturers that are of interest to you and use careful testing and feedback from your own body along with the expertise each of them has about their own mattresses to help you make your best choices. Your body doesnât understand specs ⌠only what I call PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences).
The foams within a mattress are not fire retardant âdousedâ , in fact, some of the more green mattress options never use fire retardant chemicals. What is required is that a mattress pass the 16 CFR 1632 and 1633 fire regulations with or without the use of fire retardant chemicals (the method of passing the regulations isnât specified in the regulations). The most common method used to pass the regulations is the use of inherent fire barrier fabrics that are either quilted into the cover or are wrapped around the inner materials of the mattress like a sock. There is a lot of misleading information in the industry about fire retardants and âchemicalsâ ranging from âfear mongeringâ on one side to completely minimizing fire retardants from being an issue at all on the other. Like most issues that arouse strong feelings or controversy, the most reliable and âaccurateâ information tends to be in between both polar extremes. Also encasing a mattress in a protector wonât stop the VOCs from being emitted
There is no scientific definition, yard stick, or unit measurement of plushness that is repeatable in any circumstances and using a precise rating of plushness (such as 4.5) across products with different materials from different manufacturers is very misleading and generally speaking meaningless as plushness or firmness is very personal and relative to the person that is doing the testing. This is also why you cannot expect that the Zenheaven to feel the same as the Talalay Bliss or any other mattress unless they use exactly the same materials and components.
As far as the non-toxicity goes âToxicâ is a term for poisonous substances produced within living cells or organisms, although the term is often used in the mattress industry (and often part of some âfear-mongeringâ campaigns), but I think I understand your point. Most people that are looking for ânon-toxicâ ( toxicity is dose-dependent ) materials are usually concerned most with âsafetyâ.
There is quite a bit of confusing information available online about toxicity, safety and organic, and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications such as Oeko-tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold, C2C, and CertiPUR-US in post #2 here, and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons, or whether a âsafetyâ certification is enough, and what those certifications can mean to determine whether the contents of any particular mattress are âsafe enoughâ for you.
Latex is generally able to meet more stringent standards for VOCs and harmful substances, and if you decide to move in that direction,
Your description shows that you are not sinking in as deeply as you would need to, and not that you are ânot having support under your waistâ. When you sink in more you often feel more pressure, which people often mistakenly label support. Deep support is maintaining a neutral spinal alignment which is preventing from bottoming out.
The fact that you felt better with the egg crate strip on top shows that you need a bit more plushness but again only you can determine the level of plushness you feel comfortable with.
A low return rate or what other people say wonât tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or âvalueâ of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ), and I recommend that you avoid considering such comments as any sort of a reliable indicator of the appropriateness of any particular product for your needs. With any mattress purchase I would truly encourage you to focus on the product itself, quality of componentry and your own needs and preferences and not on what others may or may not feel on the same mattress. Reviews or other peopleâs comments can be very misleading
The clerk at the mattress mill is wise and listening to her body. Youâve only had the mattress one night - Iâd strongly discourage you from making an assessment after only one night of sleeping on the product. All mattresses will soften slightly with use, even latex and the covering and the non-woven fabric wrapping the springs, although the amount will vary based upon materials being used. Your body will also go through a period of retrogression where youâll adjust to the new product as well. Keep in mind that a mattress can take a few weeks (up to 90 days in some cases) to break in and a new mattress is almost always firmer than a mattress that has been in the showroom for a while and has gone though itâs initial softening period.
To begin with I would suggest that you give it more time and even if in the end the product turns out to be unsuitable, you can use what you learned with your future purchase. Youâd be surprised how much you can learn while allowing for the adjustment and break in period.
It feels different from what you tried because in the store you tried Bliss and you ordered Zenhaven and unless all materials and construction are the same for both mattresses you wonât be experiencing the same feel. It may be that you wonât get used to it or that even after the product breaks in you will still find it uncomfortable, but in the process you would gain many insights of what is right for you for a future purchase, then I would do a hard reset and start from ground zero with evaluating the specifics of the componentry of any mattress that you are considering such as materials used, layers, and thickness, ILDs. When assessing any product, also be sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.
I would certainly suggest to you to rely on the advice of the manufacturer themselves as they are much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the âaveragesâ of other customers that may be similar to you. The more accurate and detailed the information you provide them the better you will help them to help you make the best possible choices out of the options they have available. Of course the options you have available with each retailer or manufacturer (or with a particular mattress) and your ability to exchange layers or the mattress itself or use other forms of fine-tuning after your purchase or the return policy may also be an important part of your personal value equation or to offset the risk that can go with any online purchase.
If you need to start again I would still read through the mattress shopping tutorial herepost #2 here post #13 here (there is a condensed version of it at the end of that post) which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure youâve read are which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best âmatchâ for you in terms of âcomfortâ, firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesnât turn out as well as you hoped for andwhich has more about the most important parts of the âvalueâ of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well he will sleep), durability (how long he will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesnât turn out as well as you hoped for).
I hope that this is only about the adjustment period and you wonât have to look for another product. Keep us posted.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I also cannot figure out how to start a new topic. Foam Sweet Foam is not one of the âTalk To The Expertâ choices, and I have already talked with them by phone. Here is my issue/question:
We are almost to the end of the 120 day return window on our Foam Sweet Foam talalay mattress. Initially the mattress felt too firm for me. Our original configuration was:
XF, F, M, S on my side and XF, F, M, M on my husbandâs side. At the suggestion of FSF, we have tried unzipping the encasement and moving around layers. In addition, we added a topper and purchased an additional blended talalay layer (ILD 14) from KTT Enterprises. My husband has been fine with every configuration, so I will focus on my side only. I am 5â and weigh apx. 110 pounds, relatively proportionate. I have scoliosis, but it is not extreme. The most recent configuartion on my side of the bed is XF, M, N2, N1, with the 14 ILD topper over the encasement (the 14 blended is inside the topper, which originally had a higher ILD). We have a St Dormier cover over the FSF encasement, but the topper rests on top of that. The topper cover is a stretchy one - Pure Talalay Bliss. I have had difficulty sleeping since weâve received our new bed, and continue to âtoss and turn,â have trouble falling asleep, and wake with pain, especially in my back, shoulders and neck. Prior to our latex journey, we slept on a soft-sided waterbed. We visited some of the bricks and mortar mattress stores in our area prior to purchasing from FSF, and the consensus seemed to be that latex would be our best bet when transitioning from a waterbed. We were disinclined to buy another waterbed as we are aging and felt a more traditional mattress would be easier for us to deal with. However, we must now decide whether to return the bed to FSM and get something else (perhaps a waterbed), or continue trying to manipulate the latex layers to find that almost-perfect fit. I lurked and spent hours reading here on TMU prior to purchasing a bed, feeling I did not need to actually post an inquiry. Now I am at a place where I need expert advice! Thanks so much.
Thanks as always for your detail, Phoenix! Lots of wisdom here.
A little clarificationâŚI was not saying I was going to build a mattressâŚrather, wondering if the âsafetyâ aspect could have been achieved by simply wrapping any new non-memory foam mattress in a good mattress protector that would contain any cancerous compounds. It seems most of the concerns (outside flame retardants) surround inhaling particulate dust from foam breakdown which then the lungs cannot shed. (Valid or not? Unsure. I feel like I could sleep on the safest bed ever and still be surrounded by carcinogens from all sorts of sources in my day-to-day.) Iâm still curious if âwrapping it upâ would make a mattress saferâŚalthough it wouldnât solve my desire to tread a little lighter on the environment with a biodegradable productâŚit sounds like it wouldnât in the case of VOCâs, but my understanding is that these are pretty low on most of the $1k+ options anyway.
Phoenix, I didnât quite understand the difference hereâŚ"Your description shows that you are not sinking in as deeply as you would need to, and not that you are ânot having support under your waistâ. " It feels like Iâm sagging at the waist, so donât I want the bed to hold up that section in a neutral alignment? I agree I need to sink a bit more. I did have concerns shopping as a 135# woman that most beds would skew towards the median weight.
Iâve read many of these posts which is why there was such a lament over choosing wrongâŚI guess whatâs missing is the test factor. But how many mattresses can one person have delivered in their lifespan? These four hour delivery windows, manâŚ
I called the manufacturer yesterday in a sleep deprived panic and they reminded me the bed will break in a bit more, as will I. They are sending out some sort of topper, which I feel will helpâŚbut at the point Iâm topping an expensive mattress, I question the value of the money I just spent. It almost seems as if it would make more sense to get an inexpensive mattress and a nice topper? How much work is the mattress doing under four inches of fluff?
I will keep trying the bed as long as I can stand to, but itâs really painfulâŚlike trying to wear shoes that are two sizes too small. Last night I added a duvet under the sheet to get a little more ploof. The rep said even if I used the topper, I would still be helping break in the bed. So thereâs that.
I think what Iâm realizing is that most hotel and guest beds have some sort of pillowtop. Is it now the thing to sell this piece separately? It makes sense as it degrades faster and could be replacedâŚ
I donât know quite how to ask this question, but I want my spine to be lined up like in the commercials. How do I find a bed that does that?
Thanks for the helpâŚyou werenât kidding about the learning curve. I wish it could be more like getting sized for a shoeâŚ
As much as I wish, unfortunately I wouldnât be able to diagnose what might be your issue or the cause of your discomfort, as there are entirely too many personal variables involved, including items such as your BMI, somatotype, sleeping style, levels of flexibility, core strength, sensitivities, and preexisting conditions. All I can speak of would be the general reasons for certain âsymptomsâ when sleeping upon a mattress (see post #2 here, but the first step in finding this would always be to determine whether your âsymptomsâ are from pressure issues, alignment issues, or âfeelâ issues ⌠all of which could have different solutions. It may also be that you do not like and cannot get used to the feel of latex and like the waterbed
What you describe can have many causes. Either the deep XF layer is too hard for you, or there is too much extra plushness on top, or that you may need to reevaluate your pillow to keep your head and neck in good alignment in all your sleeping positions as this would have a direct impact on tour neck and shoulder. There is more about choosing a pillow in the pillow topic here and the other sources of information and the posts it links to that may be helpful.
Some other forum posts that talk about fine-tuning a mattress and may help you recognize or âdiagnoseâ the underlying cause of different types of âsymptomsâ, pain, or discomfort that may be connected to a mattress include âŚ
I am afraid that my advice or any other expertâs advice could not help you more than your thorough data collection and conclusions from the trial and error process youâve been going through and that short of gaining a clear understanding of what is really going on and where the discomfort originates your best source of guidance is the advice from FSF as they would have much more information about their mattresses and how they respond to people that may be similar to you and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on the mattresses, and the results of your testing when rearranging all the layers for your side of the mattress âŚ. to make suggestions as to what to do next.
I hope you manage to pinpoint the issue(s) and find a good solution. Iâd be interested in what FSF recommends to you in this situation and any other insights you may gain.
Thank you for taking the time to read my message and for your thoughtful reply. After several attempts at reconfiguring the latex layers, adding a topper, and purchasing various pillows, etc., we are not confident that the bed will ever be the right fit for us. As such, we are now in the process of returning the bed to FSF. Again, thank you for your time.
Warm regards,
NeonCat
Hi geesahn, and everyone:), I am new to this forum, thanks for reviewing your mattress i am interested to know whether your 4" layers (firm and mid) one solid piece for each (4X1) or 2 separate layers of 2" (2x2") for each firmness. Thank you
hi geesahn, thanks for a nice review of your new mattress! I am new to this forum and would like to know whether your layers of latex firm and med you described 4" 2 separate layers of 2 inches each or one solid piece (4x1") ?
Hi lkirik2000! The mattress we exchanged for and still LOVE is one 4"piece of firm core, a 2" med, 2" soft, 2"soft. The original one that we purchased was five 2" layers and only the bottom 2" was firm and that mattress was way too soft.
You are right, the original post was all 2" layers = 10", however we exchanged that one for the 4"firm, 2"med, 2"soft, 2soft" and it was perfect. So one 4" core plus three 2" comfort layers.
General questions, Does it matter which side of the latex foam is facing up? I usually see the smooth side up not the rough side. If I see a large air bubble hole on side of a piece of latex foam, should I be concerned?
Talalay latex tends to be quite consistent top to bottom, so if you had a layer slit from the top or bottom of the core it wouldnât tend to feel too different, regardless of orientation. With some Dunlop latex, you can get some settling of the latex particles toward the bottom of the mold, and sometimes pieces slit from the bottom of the core can feel a little firmer than pieces from the top. There would be the potential for more of a difference between layers from the top of a Dunlop core to those take from the bottom of a Dunlop core, but this tends to be small and may not be noticeable to most people, especially if placed in the deeper layers of a mattress. The smoother layer (skin)will usually represent the bottom of a Dunlop mold, so this can represent a bit of a firmer level of that piece of foam. If youâre unsure, you can press into the piece of foam from the side near the top and bottom of the piece of foam and see if you notice a difference in the softness. This is less noticeable in 2" layers than a 6" core. Larger bubbles and small voids are normal in latex foam when it is slit from a core and usually not a cause for concern unless they are large enough to create a large void, which would be uncommon.
Night 9 on the Zenhaven, and Iâve now been suffering a pinched neck nerve for the past 8 daysâŚit is excruciating. My shoulder feels jammed under my ear unless I use two pillows, which creates a different problemâŚitâs like I just donât sink in. And this is with a $20 Target topper and a duvet under the sheet to get some semblance of not-concrete. 2 more nights until the topper from the manufacturer arrives.
If I like it okay with the topper, it sure seems like an expensive, well, topper platform. Currently toughing this out, but I missed a fair bit of work last week and will miss more next week if this pain continues. Eyeballing the Tomorrow Sleep, Casper Wave and Purple as possible next steps. I donât love memory foam and I donât love the idea of bringing a ton of plastic and foam into my home, but I also donât love spending two grand a bed that is now keeping me from making money at work. These three appear to be rated highly for side sleepers, spinal alignment, and pressure relief. (Yes, I have looked at the shopping tutorial but Iâm not sure how to apply it without being able to test every bed, or with the usual customer service staff not being that well informed, so gotta look at some subjective ratings, I guess.)
The good news is that there is no low back pain. And customer support was responsive (although I feel that they could have guided me better when I reached out with a pretty clear idea of what I needed.) However, none of this is worth a pinched nerve. Granted, I have chronic pain. But itâs not usually THIS bad!
I ended up doing a layer exchange and got a firm dunlop layer. I experimented with some different configurations and found that FD, MD, ST, topper seemed to provide the best support, but did not provide enough pressure relief. However, if I remove the ST from the mattress cover and put it outside with the topper, it was excellent and felt like I was sleeping on a cloud, which is the feeling I am trying to achieve. However, my hips are still sinking in a little too far so Iâm still having some back pain (although definitely not as much as before).
I found a company that I could order some tensioner slats from, but when I talked to them, they said I would probably not be able to feel the difference with a 10" mattress and 2" topper. So I donât think that will help my hips.
I guess at this point I need to consider a zoned layer? I am allowed one more layer exchange with Sleeping Organic, however I donât think they do zoned layers. I suppose I could exchange for another firmer layer, which would bring my hips up more, but I donât see any scenario where only my hips would come up and not my shoulder too, which would still leave me in the same situation of my hips being too far below my shoulder.
I looked at some of the links you attached and saw your suggestions about using a piece of firm polyfoam under the hips. I think this would be worth trying. Should the polyfoam go under the bottom layer of the mattress or under one of the middle layers?
If I end up wanting to do a zoned mattress, would I need to return my current mattress and buy a new one from Flo-beds, or could I just purchase one zoned layer from Flo-beds to add to my current mattress?
So, I got my topper today from Zenhaven. There was a hard seam running vertically along one third of the bed, right where youâd actually sleep.
So figuring I have literally nothing to lose at this point besides the last of my patience, I made a tiny hole in the cover and looked to see what was up. They had basically glued two latex remnants together, a twin and a skinny piece. The glue was hard, irregular, and not comfy to lay on.
Their CS guy is nice, but I am at my witsâ end with these guys. Mattress comfort is subjective but you know whatâs not? Production values. I have a topper (granted, it was free) thatâs two bits glued together, and a queen mattress that doesnât seem properly sized for the box spring IT CAME WITH. Measuring. Not that hard, people.
I donât have much to compare it to, but so far, this is not a $2,000-worthy experience. Iâve emailed them and asked if they just throw the beds in the landfill or donate them if you return them. Iâd be interested to see what a supposedly âgreenâ company does with returns. The thought of buying this bed for semi-ethical motivations (I guess I also selfishly want sleep?) only to toss it as waste is sickening.
And I have to addâŚtheir CS guy told me on the phone it was a $500-600 dollar topper, so I was expecting something pretty big. Itâs about a 1" topper, guys. This appears to retail for about $200 without the cover, so throw in a little extra for that, but I have to roll my eyes on that one, Zenhaven. Even if it didnât have the glue seam.
