Mattress Woes, looking at latex

[pygmalionundone]

Hey, I recently posted about this issue on another forum, but figured that the more advice I can get the better. For those of you who are on multiple forums, I apologize for the redundancy. There will be some slight differences based on new thoughts, etc.

Basically, over the past year my g/f and I have had awful results with finding a mattress, despite a fair amount of research. Initially, we got a Serta PerfectDay I-series Ceremony Super Pillow Top. It felt amazing in the store, but ultimately was too plush for me, although my g/f loved it. Unfortunately, within 2 weeks, I was in so much pain I could hardly walk. So, we returned it (for a small fortune) and tried again.

Next, I went to Bed-In-A-Box. I was impressed with the company’s way of doing business, appreciated their liberal return policy, and actually got to try out some models because I just happen to live near Piney Flats TN. We got their 17 inch adjustable mattress, with twin-xl splits in both the reversible comfort layer and the reversible core. I wasn’t able to get a “perfect” fit for firmness, (firm-side up for both layers, g/f soft side up over firm side up), but it was decent. The problem was the slow rebound to the memory foam. If either of us needed to change positions, we had to practically throw ourselves over, often shaking the whole bed. After enough nights waking up 10x/night, we donated it to charity for a refund per BIAB’s policy. As an aside, these guys were really awesome to work with, and if memory foam is right for you, I HIGHLY recommend talking with them. Just know that if you return a mattress, they won’t let you buy another one.

We had to start all over, and at this point, I was more willing to spend extra money to find the “right” bed. I’d heard great things about latex, but the bulk of reviews were generally on par with the best memory foam reviews. We just knew we needed a faster rebound time, and thought we had a good choice in the Tempur-Pedic Weightless Supreme. It felt good in the store and was easy to roll around on. When it first arrived, it was firmer than in the store, but tolerable. We thought we had a winner, and that once it softened up a bit, it’d be perfect. However, within 2 weeks, something changed! My weight had sunken in the middle of the bed, my shoulders didn’t go with them, and my back always felt out of alignment. It appears that the lower density memory foam necessary for the faster response time just isn’t up to handling my weight.

It got so bad, that for the past week and a half, I’ve been sleeping on a 15+ year old low-end innerspring with about 2" sag. Sadly, it’s preferable for both of us now, but too small for both of us, so my g/f is sleeping on an air mattress. Good times.

Anyway, after a nightmare of a time with lies, deceit, and other things I will forever associate with the mattress industry, I finally managed to get HH Gregg and Tempurpedic to take the darn thing back. So…back at square one, all over again!

Given the need for faster response and softness with good support, I’m at the point where I’m pretty certain we need to consider either a good innerspring with a good latex topper, or, most likely, an all-latex mattress…

A few days ago, we drove to Asheville, NC (1.5 hrs away) to try out some latex beds. We tried the Natura, but didn’t like the cover (too much separation between us and the latex). We both liked the PLB Nutrition a lot, but I think my hips and abdomen drop a bit too much for proper alignment for long-term comfort. After many combinations with mattresses and toppers, my G/F fell in love with the PLB Nature with the PLB 2" 19ILD latex topper. It’s a bit too soft for me, of course, but it seems to give us a starting point. The main problem is that getting this combination will leave my side too soft and would cost nearly $5500 to get from PLB.

I personally think I would do well with the PLB nature as-is, but my G/F needs a bit more cushioning, so we need to come up with something that’s similar to PLB nature on my side and similar to PLB nature with 2" 19 ild latex on her side. It should be noted that these are the newest PLBs with the active-fusion, and I haven’t found accurate ILDs on them yet, so I’m just guessing they’re close to the old generation. We also would want a cover that is similar to the PLB in terms of softness and closeness to the latex itself.

As of now, I’m looking at either trying to design a multi-layer mattress or consider a flobed with V-Zone (or possibly custom sleep design). My fear with V-zone is that I’ve never had a zoned bed before, and while I love the idea for side sleeping, I wonder about how I’ll do when I’m on my back (25% of time). As for custom sleep design, they have a different zoning process, which may be superior for back sleeping, but I have some concerns regarding the turnaround time for delivery and exchanges.

According to Flobeds online recommendations, I should look at Firm Vzone/Firm/X-Firm for me and Medium/Medium/Medium or Medium/Medium/Soft. Her side sounds much softer than what we tried in the store, however (based upon listed ILD’s). Others have also commented that a 36 ILD core likely is too soft for my weight (see below)

If I don’t go with a V-zone, I am thinking that a 2-3" 19 ILD topper to cover both sides would be ideal for transitional comfort across the midline, and also that way it doesn’t need to be integrated into the primary mattress. Perhaps that is too much soft cushioning, for me though? As for the core/support layers, from what I’m reading about weight and support, I will likely require another 8-9" of mattress for adequate support (total 11"+). It seems that most bed offerings are in 3" increments, so I couldn’t mimic the Nature precisely either. So, with that in mind, as well as our demographics listed below, does anyone know what might be some reasonable options for our conundrum?

Vitals:

Me: 6’0" 210lbs (1 year ago was 165, and I hope to get back there but that’s another issue); Sleep ratio: Side 75%, Back 25%

Her: 5’5" 130ish; Sleep Ratio: Side 50%; Back 25%; Other 25% (restless)

Biggest Needs:

1. Comfort with appropriate support

2. Good return policy! (burned thrice, only once with a less than brutal experience)

3. Flexibility to adjust if necessary

4. Easy to set up. I really don’t want to do mattress surgery, due to a lack of both time and coordination.

[phoenix]

Hi pygmalionundone,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum!

I did see your post in what’s the best mattress.

Anyway, after a nightmare of a time with lies, deceit, and other things I will forever associate with the mattress industry, I finally managed to get HH Gregg and Tempurpedic to take the darn thing back. So…back at square one, all over again!

This part is good news because starting all over again using completely different research methods and basic assumptions (such as reviews being helpful as an indication of your own experience with a mattress) is a big improvement over what many other people are faced with such as an exchange option where nothing that is available for exchange in the store would be a good quality or value choice.given your history … starting all over again is the best possible outcome for your past experiences … as long as you now change the way you look for your next mattress.

The first place to start is post #1 here which has the information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choices and lower the chance of making a different version of the same mistakes all over again.

A few days ago, we drove to Asheville, NC (1.5 hrs away) to try out some latex beds. We tried the Natura, but didn’t like the cover (too much separation between us and the latex). We both liked the PLB Nutrition a lot, but I think my hips and abdomen drop a bit too much for proper alignment for long-term comfort. After many combinations with mattresses and toppers, my G/F fell in love with the PLB Nature with the PLB 2" 19ILD latex topper. It’s a bit too soft for me, of course, but it seems to give us a starting point. The main problem is that getting this combination will leave my side too soft and would cost nearly $5500 to get from PLB.

At least some of the options you are testing (Natura and PLB) use better quality materials than your previous purchases. This is a step in a good direction but I would personally not start testing mattresses until you reached step 3 of the guidelines in the previous post I linked. Having some good basic information and knowing the better options available to you in your area are important prior steps. It also helps to have a good idea of how to test mattresses more objectively so that your odds are better of making the best possible long term choices. I would also keep in mind that the PLB topper is 14 - 15 ILD (depending on which topper you tried) … not 19 ILD and is very soft. The price is also very high and there is likely much better value available.

I personally think I would do well with the PLB nature as-is, but my G/F needs a bit more cushioning, so we need to come up with something that’s similar to PLB nature on my side and similar to PLB nature with 2" 19 ild latex on her side. It should be noted that these are the newest PLBs with the active-fusion, and I haven’t found accurate ILDs on them yet, so I’m just guessing they’re close to the old generation. We also would want a cover that is similar to the PLB in terms of softness and closeness to the latex itself.

You can find the details of the new PLB lineup in post #2 here.

While it may be true in theory that the Nature could make a good choice for either or both of you … if I was to go in this direction I would purchase the mattress by itself (without any topper) and then add a topper if your longer term experience after the normal adjustment and break in period of any mattress indicated it may be necessary. If you go for the “feel” of a mattress in a store it is very common to make subjective choices that are much too soft rather than choices based on more “objective” testing that are more likely to feel and perform well in actual real life long term use. Careful testing is the key and I would err on the side of firmness because it’s easier to soften up a mattress that is too firm than it is to make a mattress that is too soft any firmer.

As of now, I’m looking at either trying to design a multi-layer mattress or consider a flobed with V-Zone (or possibly custom sleep design). My fear with V-zone is that I’ve never had a zoned bed before, and while I love the idea for side sleeping, I wonder about how I’ll do when I’m on my back (25% of time). As for custom sleep design, they have a different zoning process, which may be superior for back sleeping, but I have some concerns regarding the turnaround time for delivery and exchanges.

Both of these are good quality choices and are made by “mattress people” with good knowledge and experience but they are also different in their design and how they accomplish their zoning. The “best” approach is to talk with each of them in person rather than trying to predict what “theory” says without having enough direct experience to make any theory or design idea meaningful to you.

Zoning can be very helpful if it is done right … no matter what positions you sleep in. If you have a firmer zone under your heavier pelvis … it can allow you more latitude to use softer foams in other areas that may need them (such as the shoulders) without the normal alignment risk of sinking in too far in the pelvis area in any of your sleeping positions. Of course the type of zoning and how it matches your needs and preferences and the other layers of the mattress is the most important part and if you can’t test it in person … then knowing all your options and more extended conversations with each manufacturer are the most important part of helping you decide on your “best” choices. Without a great deal of experience … the “theory” of mattress design and layering can give you some generic insights (such as the information included in the mattresses section of the site) but the best use of “theory” is to use it to have more meaningful conversations and to ask better questions when you are talking with manufacturers … not as a way to become your own mattress designer.

There are so many variables of body type, sleeping style, preferences, and sensitivities that there is no “formula” that can take basic height/weight sleeping position information and turn it into a mattress design with certainty and when you are buying a mattress online … your own personal experience and the options you have to rearrange or exchange layers can be more important than your initial choice which is only a starting point in many cases. If the overall design of the mattress you choose online covers your “ideal range” … then the options you have available will be enough to get you there … even if your initial choice is not your best one. An online purchase in other words where you are working with a manufacturer that offers layer exchanges or different degrees of ability to customize is a process and a series of decisions … not a single decision.

According to Flobeds online recommendations, I should look at Firm Vzone/Firm/X-Firm for me and Medium/Medium/Medium or Medium/Medium/Soft. Her side sounds much softer than what we tried in the store, however (based upon listed ILD’s). Others have also commented that a 36 ILD core likely is too soft for my weight (see below)

While some online “choosers” may be more accurate than others… I would never use them and would always talk with each manufacturer you are considering in person which can provide them with much more detailed input … which of course means better output as well. Nothing can replace a longer conversation on the phone and may do more to confuse than help you. Most online “choosers” are biased or "weighted with a certain set of assumptions that may or may not apply to your individual circumstances.

If I don’t go with a V-zone, I am thinking that a 2-3" 19 ILD topper to cover both sides would be ideal for transitional comfort across the midline, and also that way it doesn’t need to be integrated into the primary mattress. Perhaps that is too much soft cushioning, for me though? As for the core/support layers, from what I’m reading about weight and support, I will likely require another 8-9" of mattress for adequate support (total 11"+). It seems that most bed offerings are in 3" increments, so I couldn’t mimic the Nature precisely either. So, with that in mind, as well as our demographics listed below, does anyone know what might be some reasonable options for our conundrum?

Again … I would resist the temptation to become your own mattress designer which involves more variables and much more experience than you likely have. I would limit your understanding of “theory” to the level which allows you to ask better questions. Too little information (or information which is only partly true of inaccurate) can lead to some poor choices but too much information can also lead to “paralysis by analysis” or to choices based on a false sense of believing you “know” how what you are choosing may feel and perform for you. The reality is that every layer and component in a mattress interacts with every other layer and component (not just the foam) in ways that may not be “predictable” for any particular person based on theory alone. Your “job” is to report what you know about yourself and your own testing experiences … their job is to help you “translate” that into a choice that has the best odds of success based on their knowledge and experience with their own mattresses and customer base. Each manufacturer may provide you with different options or “suggestions” based on their own experience, their knowledge of how all the components and layers in their mattress interact with each other and different people, the different options that each design has available, or just because there are usually many layering “pathways” that lead to a similar outcome in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences). Choosing between different choices or designs based on your own confidence level that your “ideal layering” somewhere in the range of possibilities that each design makes available is part of your own “personal value equation”.

I would always pay more attention to the process of choosing and your range of options and the “why” behind each choice than getting caught up in specs which may not be particularly meaningful to you or within your ability to “translate” into real life experience in the longer term.

Biggest Needs:

1. Comfort with appropriate support

As you can see in this article about the basic functions of a mattress … these basic needs are common to everyone that is purchasing a mattress. The key is in how this is accomplished with the best odds of success.

2. Good return policy! (burned thrice, only once with a less than brutal experience)

The importance of a return policy (and the ability to re-arrange or exchange layers and the costs involved) are of course an important part of each person’s personal value equation and need to be factored in to the cost and “value” of each mattress you consider. This means making sure you understand and ask about the details of each retailers or manufacturers policy. Some people are happy with a higher risk and don’t require a return policy at all while other may only feel comfortable if there is a way to “escape” the entire process and start all over again at a minimal cost.

3. Flexibility to adjust if necessary

Again … make sure you know the details of what can and can’t be changed or re’arranged. some mattresses have much more flexibility than others and this too needs to be part of how you compare different choices to decide on what is best for you. in most cases you can change for different ILD’s of a layer (or part of a zoned mattress if that is the design you are looking at) but you won’t be able to change layer thickness with most online purchases.

4. Easy to set up. I really don’t want to do mattress surgery, due to a lack of both time and coordination.

With two people … most layered component mattresses are easy to set up if you take your time. Some may also offer white glove services and this may also be worth considering if that has particular value to you.

Hope this helps … and you may have a bit of reading to do

You may also have seen this already but some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Kingsport, TN area (for when you get to step 3 in the first post I linked) are listed in post #2 here.

A larger list centered around Hendersonville, NC is in post #4 here

Knoxville, TN is in post #2 here.

Phoenix