More frustrated and confused.

I can see you’re pretty upset, and I would be too. Similar thing happened with me (mattress too firm) but I was fortunate I’d selected a retailer and mattress maker had an excellent comfort policy to correct. I treated it like a process, iterating to perfection.

It looks like Savvy Rest has something similar:
http://www.savvyrest.com/policies/latex-exchange

If you’re interested in working with the mattress you have, you do have a couple things working for you (ability to change layers, it’s easier to soften a mattress vs firm one up)… it is unfortunate it’s not perfect right at delivery.

You’ll probably hear a lot of people say you need to give it 30 to 60 days, but if it’s painful to sleep a night then that’s not helpful advice.

In my case, I had started (bottom up), firm, med, soft. It was hellishly too firm for me. I was taking Tylenol and Advil to sleep on it to deal with pressure pain. I switched it to firm, soft, soft, and it’s been a world of difference. No pain and really nice. Not perfect, but 95% the way there. I have a bunch more things I’m trying (med at bottom, and 3" wool topper), I am trying to get that last 5% comfort (and I’m princess and pea type, so my standards way up there). My point being, even changing a single layer has a significant effect.

Thanks for your sympathy, dn. I just went online to seach for a five-inch featherbed topper as a interim measure until I can (hopefully) find a buyer for this mattress. My fear is that the feathers will get firm quickly, as feather toppers I would guess would compress and bunch up unless they are fluffed every day, which I would be happy to do if it gave me some relief.

I called the Savvy Rest dealer again today trying to discuss exchange options, and he said swapping out the middle medium talalay layer for a soft talalay layer probably wouldn’t make much difference. He did acknowledge there might be “some” additional softness, but not the amount I was looking for. I asked about going with three layers of soft, and he just said he would not recommend that for spinal alignment.

He also said something I found counterintuitive: He said a middle soft dunlop layer would be SOFTER than a middle medium talalay layer. (Again, not a LOT softer, but some softer.) He said if I had gone with a soft dunlop middle layer, it would be exactly the same feel as the what I have now – middle layer soft talalay. Wish I would have known that before I doled out the money for the middle talalay layer. :dry:

So. I will first try the featherbed topper. Unfortunately that is only available online, so I will have to wait a week for that. Meantime, I will start putting up postings in some of the local organic food stores and organic clothing places. If no luck, then I will post on Craigslist. The big problem, I am guessing, is that I cannot offer delivery, so if someone wanted it, they would have to haul it themselves.

I’ll let you know how the featherbed topper works when I get it. Keeping my fingers crossed. :slight_smile:

My only caution (depending on your financial situation, it may or may not be relevant) is to not make a bunch of rash purchases, and throw good money on poor solutions. A 5" feather topper untested by you, of unknown quality, has a higher degree of risk than a material you’ve tested in a store. And yes, feathers do pack down, especially if they’re lower quality.

I don’t agree that changing 1 layer won’t make a difference. It did for me.

It doesn’t surprise me that soft Dunlop would be ‘softer’ than medium talalay. That would make sense to me. That said, the perception of softness/plushness is a personal preference, so it’s possible different people think differently.

Good luck!

Thanks once again, dn, for your great advice. I so appreciate it!! :slight_smile: Yes, money is a concern for me! LOL! :slight_smile:

That is why instead of swapping out a layer (which would be a pricey proposition), I thought I would try a topper first. I really don;t know if I want to invest that kind of money (again!) for something that may or may not end up with the cushy feeling my back needs. Even if the topper doesn’t help with this mattress, it wouldn’t be money wasted; I can always use a topper on any new mattress I may get.

A friend of mine just alerted me to a “high end consignment shop” in Chicago that re-sells higher-end furnishings. Obviously I wouldn’t get anywhere near full price back for the mattress, but it may be an option to consider if I absolutely cannot tolerate this. (And, yes: they do accept mattresses, but charge a fee to sterilization, which they must do by law.) Getting something would be better than nothing.

At this point, I am just investigating all of my options. My very strong preference, as I said earlier, would be go just get rid of the thing. Sleeping on a horribly uncomfortable mattress will end up costing more in the long run in medical bills and ill health effects than just fessing up that I made a very bad decision and taking my medicine (in the form of financial pain). I only wish latex would perform like some of the toxic mattresses and soften up substantially after use. :\

I’m so sorry your mattress hasn’t worked out for you!

One thing you were told confuses me - “He said the store one could have been on the low range of the soft (the top layer), and the one I got on the high range.”

I thought that Talalay latex was sold as a single number for ILD (19, 22, 36, etc.), while Dunlop is the latex that’s sold with a range of ILD - like my Dunlop mattress was sold as having an ILD range of 16-18 for the comfort layer and 19-23 for the core. Since I’ve seen Dunlop labeled that way, but not Talalay, what you’re told about the low range and high range seems a bit odd. Then again, as much as I’ve learned from reading here, I’m quite sure there are still a lot of things I don’t know.

I will warn you that a good featherbed topper isn’t a cheap alternative in my experience - the one I’d considered buying before I decided to get a new mattress was in the $500 range for a queen size. You can get cheap ones - but the couple of times in the past that I did try cheap ones I was reminded very quickly that often you get what you pay for - the one I bought a couple of years ago in the $250 range wasn’t much good two years after purchase, and I’m the only one who used it, so I’d really expected it to last longer in good condition. That one was from The Company Store, and I also bought one for my daughter from Pacific Coast which wasn’t very satisfactory either. You may think now that fluffing a featherbed everyday would be no big deal - but doing that very thing for six months is what tipped me over the edge towards buying a new mattress. Then again, I was having to unmake and re-make a queen sized soft sided waterbed every day to fluff the featherbed, and it was making my back most unhappy.

I got a flawed comfort layer in my mattress initially where there was a lot of variation in density in a few spots, but thankfully the store swapped out that piece for a perfect layer at no cost to me. Sometimes imperfect latex does slip past quality control - and because of what happened to me, I’m wondering if perhaps something similar happened in your case. It doesn’t sound as though Savvy Rest is very willing to work with you at this point, which really seems a shame considering their prices.

I hope you can find a good solution for your problem!

Hi ShopperGirl,

I’m sorry to hear about your issues as well.

Outside of dn’s great suggestions once again … I would add my vote that you go very slowly and take things one step at a time. A day or two is not nearly enough to really make any major decisions. You have many options before taking more radical steps or adding to your costs. Don’t forget that the mattress you have is a very high quality choice so the goal is to find a way to fine tune it so that your PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) is just as good as its quality. If you sell the mattress your expenses/losses will be much greater than if you are successful in fine tuning it to your specific needs and preferences.

The first place I would start is post #2 here which can help you eliminate any of the other variables (including the initial break in period and the adjustment period that is part of every new mattress purchase, any toppers or mattress protectors you are using, and the effect of the quilted cover). Your mattress will change it’s “feel” over the first 30 days or so as materials soften a bit and the cover stretches.

This is part of the nature of natural latex and in most cases the ILD variation will be outside the range of perception but for some that are more sensitive it can make a difference. I would also find out whether the mattress you tested in the store was using Talalay latex made by latex international because they have recently changed to Radium Talalay which may also make a difference (the ILD’s between each may not be directly comparable).

A featherbed will have its own surface softness but is also less resilient and elastic than latex and may interfere with the ability of the latex below it to contour to your body shape. It can add some softness in terms of “feel” but may also add some firmness in terms of pressure relief. You can read more about the different types of softness in post #15 here. keep in mind that softness is very subjective.

Like dn … I also believe that changing a layer can make a significant difference and one of the benefits of your Savvy Rest is that you can exchange a layer. It would certainly be worth trying this before selling the mattress IMO. His advice here …

… is exactly the process I would follow … one step at a time. The initial purchase of a component mattress is just one step in the process.

But the first step would be to follow the suggestions in the first post I linked so that at least you have more clarity about the types of changes that would be most beneficial to you. One day is just not enough to evaluate your mattress and you have too many remaining options available to make quick decisions that can cost you a great deal of money IMO.

Phoenix

Thanks for your insights, Clawdia–especially regarding the hassles of fluffing down.

Today I went out shopping, and found a three inch “down alternative” topper. It was originally $199, but with the Columbus Day sale, I got it for $119. We’ll see how that works. I was tempted to also get a polyfoam topper to put under that, too (can you say, “overkill?”), but opened the package and the smell was awful! Decided against that, obviously.

I, too, thought ILDs for talalay were very specific, but not only did the sales associate tell me that, but this afternoon I actually read the information handout they left behind, and it does say that ILDs are “ranges” and not exact. But today as I was reading through some forum topics here, I saw someone mention a store in Wisconsin (Penny Mustard) that has a latex mattress. I went on their website, and they showed EXACT ILDs for their specs (24 and 32 or 34, if I remember correctly.) They did not specify the range that Savvy Rest did.

It’s funny you mentioned about your one layer having different levels of firmness. Last night, as I was trying to get comfortable, I was flopping back and forth between the right and left side of the bed, and I could have sworn the right side was firmer than the left. (I have one solid piece of foam; not two.) But, I then thought I was just making myself crazy and imagining that. I literally thought, “There is no way a single piece of foam can be two different firmness levels!” Hmmm…maybe I’m not so crazy after all. :lol: Tonight, with the new topper on, I’ll see if I can tell a difference.

So, the saga (that I am getting very weary of) continues… :frowning:

Thanks for the great suggestions, Phoenix. I didn’t even think about unzipping the cover a bit! That’s a great option from your linked post!

I did walk across the mattress several times yesterday, which did absolutely nothing (at least that I could tell). I also was aware of the switch to Radium Talalay. The mattress in the store was Radium, as is the mattress that I have. In fact, the salesman at the store said Radium was slightly softer than the Latex International Talalay. (He told me this before I bought the mattress, so he wasn’t just trying to assuage my concern with the firmness of my new mattress.)

I appreciate that the DIY mattress selection is “a process,” but when I bought all of my last regular mattresses, there was no process; I adjusted just fine. Of course there was a minimal break in period, but I wasn’t in EXCRUCIATING pain the first few nights on any previous mattress as I was with this one. Plus, as much as I spent, if I go with another softer Talalay layer, it will be another $475. ($175 to exchange a layer within the first 90 days, and my sales guy told me replacing the bottom dunlop layer with the softer Talalay will be an extra $300 because talalay is much more expensive than Dunlop. For what I paid for this mattress, I am NOT willing to invest nearly the cost of a regular mattress into “fixing” the comfort. This is getting absurd!

Hi ShopperGirl,

Each purchase can be a very different experience and depends on many factors including how much different your new mattress is from the one your body is used to sleeping on.

If I was in your shoes I would take a step by step approach that would start with sleeping just on the mattress itself (removing any other toppers or protector you have) and then if this is also too firm then unzipping the cover to see what effect it’s having. Their cover is a twill apparently which may be stiffer than other covers and may need more time to break in.

Being exceptionally tired may also skew your results and experience with a new mattress and I would look at how it does in more “normal” circumstances. Your experience may be partly a side effect of how tired your body is and a “hangover” from the days before you slept on it.

Finally I would talk with the Savvy Rest corporate office because they may have more experience than your retailer and may have some suggestions that may be helpful as well.

IMO … swapping out your medium Talalay layer for a soft will certainly make a difference … but whether it’s “enough” or not only you will be able to decide. Changing the bottom layer will have the least effect on “feel” of all the layers because you will feel the upper layers more than the deeper layers (although I would work with the other options I suggested first and make changes slowly) and exchanging the middle layer Talalay for Talalay won’t involve extra material costs that would be involved in exchanging your bottom Dunlop layer for Talalay.

In some circumstances Dunlop can be softer than Talalay. If the ILD of the Dunlop is significantly less than a Talalay layer or if a layer is compressed less than 25% when you lie on the mattress it can be softer than Talalay even at the same ILD. Dunlop can start off softer than Talalay with initial compression and then as you compress it more it gets firmer faster than Talalay (it has a higher compression modulus). It would depend on the specifics of your mattress and on how much each layer is compressed with your body type and sleeping position and on the relative softness of their Dunlop vs their Talalay.

Again … I would take things slowly (although I recognize that this may be tough if you are in pain on the mattress) and make sure that there are no simple options or steps that would work for you before spending any more money or losing much of your investment in your mattress.

Phoenix

Personally, given the situation, I’d trade the middle layer from medium to soft in the same kind of latex you bought (talalay if I’ve read right). I wouldn’t adjust the bottom layer at this time. Assuming the info to be correct, that’s $175 only. I won’t say its trivial to replace layers, as it takes time and they’re not the lightest to move, but totally doable. If they have an ultra soft, you might try that instead. Exchange the middle layer for an ultra soft, and put ultra soft on top, soft in middle, medium on bottom. Again, it’s a 1 layer change.

I would not pay $475 to change the bottom layer. Your problem is not likely the bottom layer (which is more about support, not comfort, and your problem appears to be more about comfort).

If that doesn’t do it, I’d probably look at a topper then. It could be you don’t like the feel of latex all night, or just need a super soft latex on top.

(FYI, this is exactly word for word what I’ve done/ am doing).

Thanks, dn. That makes a lot of sense.

I had thought about exchanging the middle layer to soft (they don’t have ultra soft; I wasn’t even aware that was available.) But I figure if I exchanged the bottom layer, then I would put the existing medium tal on the bottom, then have the new soft layer in the middle and the current soft layer on top. That would involve only one exchange. But, to your point, switching out only the middle layer would cost $175, as opposed to nearly $500.

It’s not that I don’t like the feel of latex; I tried a latex bed at Penny Mustard over the weekend that I loved. It’s just that my back doesn’t like this mattress. Extreme pain is a pretty good indcator that something is not good for/right for your body. And I loved the Natura (all latex) at the store where I bought my mattress. (The Natura was well over $4,000 and I wasn’t willing to pay that.) I didn’t find out about the Penny Mustard place until yesterday as I was snooping around the forums here, so it was too late. Wish I would have found that place before buying the Savvy Rest. I stayed on the Penny Mustard mattress for about 45 minutes yesterday, and my back did not “get angry” at all.

Oh well…the good news is that I am learning a whole lot about mattresses from both you and Phoenix, so thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences with me; they really are very helpful and MUCH appreciated!! :slight_smile:

Hello again, Phoenix.

As always, thanks for the thoughtful and concerned comments. I very much appreciate your time and interest in helping me resolve my pain issues with the mattress. It is so kind of you to share your extensive knowledge with me; I’d be completely lost without your assistance. :slight_smile:

I made it four hours on the mattress before I was in such pain that I had to switch to the couch. Unzipping the cover did help (thanks for the tip!). The topper helped, too. But I still have not experienced this kind of pain on my previous mattress–which was old, lumpy and saggy. (With the old mattress I would never wake up stiff. The only thing I did a lot on that mattress was change positions often during the night, and occasional (maybe once every six months or so) sciatica. But not this kind of pain that starts in the lower hip and back and radiates all the way up my spine to my shoulder blades.)

Once I moved to the couch last night, I could feel my muscles literally begin to melt an relax, and within a few hours my pain was greatly reduced. I was able to fall back to sleep for a couple more hours. My couch is made of some kind of foam – not memory foam, but I have no idea of knowing exactly what it is–with a soft leather covering. It cradles me and allows me to sink into it a bit, but it is still very supportive but not at all firm. (The reason that I say it is supportive is that my spine appears to be in a neutral position—not a U-shape). I paid a lot for that couch, so maybe there is some kind of higher-end foam in it that doesn’t break down. (I’ve had the couch for about 15 years now.) I’m trying to figure out what is in it. I think if I could find the exact same material that is in my couch foam I’d try to find a bed with it in a minute. LOL! (Thankfully I was able to take a three-hour nap on the couch yesterday, so I was not completely exhausted when I went to bed last night; just in a LOT of pain which, as I said, I have not had before) As for today, I am in such pain so far today that I can barely stand it while working.)

I was a bit concerned when I read your comment that both Dunlop and Talalay get more firm over time, as that is the opposite of what I want and where I was thinking this would go; I thought the latex would soften a bit over time. Another latex mattress that I looked at in the store, but did not take because it was well over $4,000 and more than I am willing to pay, was a Natura. That was soooooo soft and squishy and heavenly.

Yesterday, I also stopped by a local store that carries a mattress made by Claire bedding to try to compare firmness. The sales person said it was made of six inches of 24 ILD (not a range; exact) and one inch 32 ILD on both sides (it’s flippable), and it was all Talalay. The one inch firm layer was on top, and the softer layer in the middle. Maybe that’s why that bed felt better to me. Cost of that bed was $2700, so right off the bat it would have been a better deal than the SR–especially in terms of how comfortable it was! But, I didn’t know this store even carried mattresses until after I had bought this torture chamber, so it was too late to even consider that one. Like the Natura, the Claire bedding mattress was very soft and I sunk down in it a lot–very comfortable–yet my spine was still neutral. The sales associate did say, though, that most customers always call to say the bed is too firm when they first get it, because “latex softens up a lot and if you just walk across it a few time, the latex will soften and the wool fire barrier will break down, too.” But everyone else in the industry I have spoken to said just the opposite; that latex breaks down, at most 2%. I hear from one person it gets softer over time, I hear from others that it gets firmer. If it truly does get firmer, I’m really not going to be able to tolerate this thing.

I am not only after a “soft” mattress; the reason I went with latex was twofold: no chemicals and it was billed to me as pressure relieving, even if it is a little firmer than traditional foam. But I have not found this pressure relieving at all. It seems to cause more pressure on my body. However, I will give it a few weeks, if I can tolerate it. I really am not sure if I can at this point, though. Aspirin is my new best friend since getting the mattess.

Another thing I noticed both nights with the SR is that it sleeps VERY hot. The first night I thought it was just from the one-inch wool mattress pad that the guy at the store sold me. But last night, I had a topper on top of the wool, and the bed was just as hot. (I keep my room at 60-62 degrees because I like a cool room, so it’s not that the air temperature was too hot.) Tonight I am going to put on my old mattress pad that is not wool, and see if that makes a difference. I will also take your advice and try to tolerate the mattress without the plush topper. That way I will have removed all materials except the mattress pad (old one, not the wool one) and a fitted sheet.

In the meantime, I will walk across the bed 2-3 more times today. (I telecommute for the company I work for, so it will be nice to get out of my desk chair and do a few “bed walks” throughout the day. (Sigh.) Some people walk their dogs, I walk my bed. LOL!

Hi ShopperGirl,

I’m not sure where you read this but all foam materials get softer over time … not firmer. If you can link to a post where I said this I’ll correct it because it’s certainly not accurate.

Most high quality couches use a high grade of polyfoam and would generally be firmer than the comfort layers of a mattress (around mid 30’s IFD) because they are designed to support more concentrated weight when you are sitting down vs the more spread out weight when you are lying down.

Given your comments that you do well on the couch (which woul.d have firmer foam than your mattress) and that you seemed to like the latex mattress by Clare Bedding that also had a firmer surface than your mattress and then was softer underneath the top layer it may be worthwhile trying your soft layer under the medium layer to see what happens.

Phoenix

Thanks again, Phoenix.

My couch is definitely NOT at ALL firm; it is quite soft, but supportive, as I said in my previous comments. I don’t think putitng the firm layer on top would help, because my layers are all 3-inches thick; the Claire bedding one was only a ONE inch layer (only 32 ILD) with a SIX inch soft layer. So, it is much softer than what I have.

Every time I lie down on my bed, it just seems way too firm. I even called my ortho doc today, and he said that although latex is usually a good option for people with back pain, he admitted that latex was much firmer regardless of ILD, and said that if you don’t like a firm mattress, you won’t like latex no matter what. I am tending to agree with him at this point. Plus, all my life I have always gone with the softest, plushies, squishiest beds I could find, and was always quite happy.

Wish I wouldn’t have gotten so hung up on the chemical issue. Had I not been concerned with the chemicals, I would have gone with my old mattress type. Oh well…live and learn. As I said, I’ll keep trying things and will report back in here in about a month to let you know what happens.

Regarding your comment re: latex getting harder with time, in a previous post in this thread you wrote:

" Dunlop can start off softer than Talalay with initial compression and then as you compress it more it gets firmer faster than Talalay (it has a higher compression modulus)."

When you said, “it getms firmer faster” that to me means it gets firmer over time, not softer.

Hi ShopperGirl,

This post was referring to the compression modulus of a foam material which means the rate a foam becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply (not over time). In other words if you have a Dunlop layer and a Talalay layer that are the same rated firmness level and you sink into the Dunlop more than about 25% of its thickness or so then the Dunlop will feel firmer than the Talalay because it has a higher compression modulus. Both of them and all other foam materials will gradually become softer over time although latex holds it’s firmness level longer than most other types of foam.

Natural or synthetic fibers on the other hand will compress and pack down over time and will become firmer … unlike foam materials.

Hope this clarifies things :slight_smile:

Pheonix

Yes, it does clarify things. Thanks!

Your doc would have an argument on his hands if I were his patient. I hate the feel of a firm mattress, but totally love my Dunlop latex mattress. Granted, it is the softest Dunlop mattress I’ve heard of, but it’s still latex and I still feel very comfortable when I crawl into my bed at night. I haven’t woken up because of pain issues a single time since getting my mattress about a month ago - I hope you can find a solution that will let you feel the same way!

I’m a bit envious of your couch, though - our leather sofa is about 8 years old and if I sit on it more than about a half hour my back starts screaming at me. I’m already using one of my latex pillows when I sit on the couch these days, but even with that my back is still aching. Bad part is that our living room holds two couches (and no chairs), and the other one makes my back ache, too, and it’s only 5 years old. If I weren’t afraid I’d bring home bed bugs, I’d be looking for a used couch about now, since I can’t afford a new one after buying the bed.

Hi ShopperGirl,

I understand that it may feel softer to you because “feel” and softness is very subjective and subject to each person’s perceptions but furniture foams need to be firmer than mattress foams or you would bottom out when you sit on them. If your furniture had foam in it as soft as the top layer of foam in your mattress you would sink right through and bottom out.

Your doctor may know lots about medicine but he appears to know little about latex or mattress materials. That would be like saying all fruit tastes like an orange. Latex comes in a very wide range of firmness levels from ultra soft to very firm and everything in between. Technically if a latex layer and a polyfoam layer are rated at the same ILD then the latex would actually be softer than the polyfoam because of the difference in the ways the two materials are tested.

I understand that your mattress may not feel the way you like or may feel firmer to you but the “feel” of firmness and softness is very subjective and what feels firm to one can feel very soft to another and vice versa. Even wood that is carved out to your exact body shape would be soft in the sense of being pressure relieving … as long as you didn’t move and feel the hardness of the wood because it doesn’t adapt to changing shapes.

While of course you are free to test whichever layers you want … I would still suggest trying the firmer layer over the softer layer if for no other reason than to see if it makes a difference. You have little to lose at this point.

Phoenix

Well, as you say…at this point I have nothing to lose. I will try the firmer (medium) talalay on top tonight and see if that makes a difference. Who knows? If it helps, well, then that was an easy fix.