Yeah now Iām more curious than before ā¦ :blink: And Iām hoping you can get to the bottom of this. Just for interests sake.
Regardless of how it shakes out, I still think I got a good deal on a great mattress. I am not concerned what you will find, but like you, I am curious - I like to figure things out. And I guess thatās why the whole Semi-DIY latex mattress thing appealed to me in the first place. If I dont like it I can take it apart and remake it myself. And know what this thing is made of from the floor up thru the comforter.
So From this end, the mattress is still a 3 layer Talalay (blended or otherwise) 9" mattress with a very nice bamboo cover and I am out like $1,325 for the Cal-King mattress and foundation before linens ā¦ :woohoo: I still cant go wrong here. But I wanna give you all the info I know to work thru the āmysteryā now
Well after the first 2 days of sleeping on the bed I noticed that we started to get what I would call softening and perhaps ever-so-slight body impressions on the His and Her sides. Our sleeping zones were plush soft, but the center was noticeably more firm ā¦
Whoa !?! :blink:
Only after 2 days? Really? Is this typical for Latex Brake-In?
If you looked across the bed with a single sheet on it you could actually see what would be the āimpressionsā. This picture shows the locations. You cannot see this in the pictures (I drew the locations in), but you could visible see them and could feel the change in comfort as you moved your legs across the bed or rolled across the bed.
The bed was sleeping fine the first 2 nites, but I wanted to see if moving the latex pieces around would effect the body impressions ā¦ OR ā¦ if the body impressions had to do with the Foundation.
If you look at the pics on page 1 of the foundation you can see that it is designed of 3 equal zones (His side, Middle, Her side) and each section has the same number of arched, flexible birch slats - 23.5" each. I theorized that the body impressions might have to do with the Left and Right side of foundation and those arched flexible slats starting to loose their āspringā (probably not ā¦ but maybe).
So to test this idea, I took the bed apart and rotated all the layers 180*, but did not flip any of the layers. Put the bed back together and the visible impressions were no longer visible. The feeling of comfort had changed just a little. The sleeping āzonesā were still fine but now you could no longer feel the change when moving your legs across the middle. The middle WAS though still noticeably firmer. Is this due to the seam?
As I took the Latex apart, I also noticed the comfort layers had some imperfections. Some stuff I could photograph, other stuff did not show in the pics. But there were some ādivotsā in a few places and edge nicks (could have happened in the zipping). Also when I picked up the top layer, if not careful it would start to ātearā along the holes like a perforation ā¦
ā¦ Is this Normal? Seems like it might be.
There were also some āroughā looking places where it almost looked like when you take a cake out of a pan and just a little of the cake sticks to the pan and there is some imperfections in the cake surface where it stuck - places like that in the latex. Is this common?
But in these pics you can see the seams (normal) and a few of the imperfections.
Does Mattresses247 sell factory seconds??? I thought I had read in a few other threads that they used to several years ago, but were no longer. Supposedly everything is new and in first run new condition.
After I did the 180* rotation of the layers ā¦ I woke up after the 3rd nite and the center of my back in my spine really hurt. I had not had this pain since I had slept on a bed 27 years ago down in Miami in a hotel. That was odd. First 2 nights fine, Nite 3 and rotation of the layers (not flip and no layer changes - still set up top to bottom: Soft / Medium / Firm). Kinda weird.
Well, this new pain continued each morning for the next 4 nights (weāve now slept on the bed 6 nights), but got a touch better each day. The bed felt great getting into it (comfort), but I had this mid back in the spine pain each morning (support). I was sleeping really well and having no memory of waking in the night. Maybe i was sleeping so well I was not moving (unlike my other bed) and thus staying in the same position too long causing the mid back spine pain ā¦ ??? maybe.
Well like I said, it was getting better, but being the āPrinces and the Peaā that I am, I could not leave well enough alone. Was it the foundation and those flexible slats?
I knew the standard for Latex mattresses was slats only 2" apart and a firm no flex foundation. This birch plywood flex slat foundation was close but not exactly that. My plan before I got the foundation was to modify it ā¦ so I though after day 6 ā¦ that is what I will do. Latex beds do not like flex, but rather firm foundations. Easy fix ā¦ head to the home center, and pick up enough 1x4 to remake the slats. I used zip ties to lash the slats to the bed frame. Worked out well, And I am still coming in much less cheaper than a typical slat latex bed foundation. Now I have about $200 in the foundation ā¦ and it is the height and look that I want ā¦ and it is a firm foundation now with NO flex.
Old flex birch slat foundation on the left (The Boyd Sleep System as sold by Walmart, Overstock, etc), New foundation re-design on the Right
Here is the completed bed now with the improved foundation, new comforter set (that arrived Tuesday) and layers put back to the original first 2 nite positions.
Now after 7 nites, a redesigned foundation ā¦ AND ā¦ re-rotating all the layers back to their original position, I seem to have slept fine. I DID NOT wake with the mid back spine pain this morning.
was it because I took a muscle relaxer before bed? (unrelated to morning bed back pain)
was it because I moved the layers back to the original position?
or was it because I re-designed the foundation into a 2" spaced, 1x4 slat, firm foundation?
I dunno. But I am thinking - Now that I have the bed and foundation where I wanted it to be from the beginning, I will sleep on it for a week or so and see how it goes. If the mid back spine pain happens again, when it is time to wash the sheets in about a week I think I will open up my side and Flip the split core layer on my side. Currently the bed is set up top to bottom: Soft 22-24 / Medium 30-32 / Firm 38-40. If the pain comes back I will try changing those layers: Soft 22-24 / Firm 38-40 / Medium 30-32 effectively firming up the core / support layer.
Thanks for another great set of comments and pictures :).
Yes ā¦ a break in and adjustment period is typical for any mattress (see post #2 here). You would also probably notice some small impressions with any natural fiber material and you would also likely also notice some unevenness across the surface if your foundation doesnāt have a flat and rigid surface because the latex will adapt to the contours of the surface.
If you mean the glue seam then no you wouldnāt feel it.
Yes ā¦ this is not only common but ānormalā with latex (see here).
As you mentioned they used to but havenāt for several years and as far as I know this hasnāt changed. Val is also āgood peopleā and would tell you if she was.
It is also perfectly normal for someoneās sleeping experience to change over the course of the first few days as the mattress breaks in and they adjust to a new sleeping surface but I would tend to avoid making any changes at first unless there was a specific reason for them because your body may not have enough time to adjust and ācatch upā to the changes. For example many people have experienced testing different mattresses over the course of the day where the different sleeping surfaces they have tried caused their backs to complain even though any one of them may not have been an issue.
If your experience becomes a pattern then would be the time to consider re-arranging or changing layers. The time you spend in a particular position that is āon the edgeā in terms of alignment can certainly have an effect on your sleeping experience or any discomfort or pain you feel because spending only a little time out of alignment before you change positions may be fine but spending longer amounts of time may cause discomfort or pain.
Having flex in a foundation isnāt necessarily ābadā but it will change the feel and performance of the mattress because it would be a more āactiveā part of your sleeping system and if your mattress was already on the edge of being too soft then having flex in a foundation may be enough to put you over the edge. In most cases though ā¦ a firm non flexing surface is the āsafestā choice unless your actual experience indicates otherwise.
[quote]Now after 7 nites, a redesigned foundation ā¦ AND ā¦ re-rotating all the layers back to their original position, I seem to have slept fine. I DID NOT wake with the mid back spine pain this morning.
was it because I took a muscle relaxer before bed? (unrelated to morning bed back pain)
was it because I moved the layers back to the original position?
or was it because I re-designed the foundation into a 2" spaced, 1x4 slat, firm foundation?[/quote]
It could be from any one or all of them combined but more importantly than āwhyā is whether your experience becomes a āpatternā where you sleep well without pain or discomfort. If the time comes to change anything then itās usually a more effective approach to make a single incremental change at a time so you can identify the effects of each change without too many variables involved.
I think thatās a good idea and I would use your actual experience to decide on what to change if that becomes necessary.
I also have confirmed that the cover in your mattress was an old version of a SleepEZ cover that they used to use and which were sold at a significant discount as an individual component when they changed their design and not as part of a complete mattress. The law tag was attached because the cover was designed to be used as part of a specific mattress with specific layers inside that had been prototyped and tested to pass the fire regulations but the testing and regulations donāt cover different layers that are inside the same cover. In other words ā¦ what you purchased wasnāt a complete mattress that has passed the fire regulations but individual components that came from different sources that you put together yourself and the law tag that indicates that the mattress has āpassedā the fire regulations or that indicate specific materials doesnāt apply to the individual layers that are inside your mattress. It just happened to be attached to the covers that she purchased that were meant to be part of a different mattress.
Thanks for all the answers. That is pretty much what I was thinking. Will make no changes not for several weeks and give our bodies a chance to adjust to the bed. The only real change I can make at this point is either:
Flip the core from Firm on the bottom and Medium in the middle TO Medium on the bottom and Firm in the middle. This can be done per side. The Soft latex comfort layer is not split and could not be easily moved off the top unless I split it OR moved the whole soft layer to the bottom.
Or
Purchase a Soft / Plush 2 or 3" Latex Topper in about the 15-19 or so ILD.
And I really have no problem with the idea of it being a DIY component mattress. That is what I was wanting anyway and was surprised it even had a law tag.
So far I am liking the foundation re-design. And it has seemed to make the bedās sleeping surface much more consistent.
But as to the softening, Break-in and visible body impressions after only 2 days of the comfort layer ā¦ your saying all of those things are common/normal? Even the body impressions? Actually, the impressions are not really a big deal as long as it does not get worse and has pretty much settled in to how it will be for the life of the mattress until it starts to break down (hopefully in 10 years +)
I agree that in practical terms that it really doesnāt make any difference but she may need to change her ad to reflect that she isnāt selling a mattress but only individual components.
Thanks too for the comments about the new foundation ā¦ and the change in your experience makes sense to me.
Iām looking forward to any ongoing feedback you have the chance to share.
Yes ā¦ the body impressions wouldnāt be in the latex layers and they are normal with natural fibers right from the start. They will also tend to even out over time as you sleep on the parts of the mattress that arenāt used as much. Impressions in natural fibers donāt really affect the comfort or feel of the mattress because there really isnāt much difference between natural fibers that are compressed when you sleep on them and donāt spring back when you are off the mattress and natural fibers that are compressed when you sleep on them and do spring back because both ways they are compressed to about the same degree and would have the same firmness when you sleep on them. Foam on the other hand softens over time and this can affect both comfort and support.
Oohhh ā¦ so you are saying the body impressions would be forming in the Quilted top of the mattress zipper cover (about 1/2 of an inch thick) and ALSO in the mattress protector which is a quilted imitation down cover (about an inch thick). That would make sense and I had read that from you before.
But the firm middle and the soften main sleeping zones ā¦ that would not be the natural fibers but rather the Latex Breaking In? Correct? So the 2 things - the Firm Middle and the Body Impressions - which seem to be related - are actually from 2 different causes? One being Latex break-in AND the other from natural/synthetic fiber compression.
I didnāt know about your mattress protector (which sounds more like a mattress pad than a mattress protector) but the impressions would be coming from both of these yes.
Your mattress will change how it feels over the course of the first few weeks yes as any foam inside loses any of its āfalse firmnessā, the cover loses some of its initial stiffness, and any fibers compress and settle and become a little firmer. In some cases the āfeelā of the mattress will change just because your body is adjusting and learning to relax on a new sleeping surface and still has a muscle memory of old sleeping positions and more relaxed muscles, ligaments, and tendons can sink into foam more than tight muscles that are keeping the body more rigid which can also make a mattress āfeelā softer.
Hi MrM1, I like what you did with the addition of the beefier āslatsā. The original ones use a design similar to many others and if I recall correctly are usually some sort of beech wood, bowed with the intention of flexing (adding some additional ācushā). Unless you had someone looking beneath the bed at the foundation while youāre laying on it, it may be hard to tell how the frame is flexing. In addition to the arched slats themselves (since they were in 3 segments with metal lengthwise supports under āhisā and āhersā), that metal may have also been flexing some. Those thicker slats you added should reduce almost any of that going on and make for a more stable platform.
Also as you mentioned, itās a good idea when connecting multiple fasteners to āstartā them all first, then go back and tighten them. That approach works well with almost any assembly. Youād be surprised how many times lining up fasteners and holes will cause poor alignment for the last fastener even if it appears square.
Iām not sure which legs it is exactly you need to brace, the centers? If they were bending from āscootingā or pulling the bed sideways, such as from his to her sides to say move the bed closer to an end table - then I would brace side to side across the bed underneath. I notice thereās multiple legs in the centers. A way to do it might be to use pieces of 2x4 on edge cut to length to fit between the legs. Since there are 4 feet in the middle youād need 3 pieces of 2x4.
Using something like a pipe grip tie to attach the 2x4 to the metal legs. One end is curved to fit the pipe with a clamping action and leaves 2 flanges with screw holes to attach to the wood. Similar to a connector used to affix pipe up against a wall. Those flanges can be bent over 90 degrees to āfaceā each other and would lay over the 2x4 allowing you to screw into the 2x4ās face instead of the end grain (stronger connection). They make different sizes, youād just need to find ones that were a close fit to your bed legs.
Usually home depot and lowes have them, theyāre around a couple dollars each. Since the middle of the bed would require 3, you may have to offset the 2x4 bracing something like ||ā|| (looking at it from the foot of the bed underneath). Maybe lift the bed up enough to slip the collar of the grip ties over the feet of the legs, or take out the clamp bolt and spread it open wide enough to slip around the bed leg.
I donāt know what sort of tools you have on hand, if you didnāt have a saw you can take the measurements with you and have h.d. or lowes cut the 2x4 to the lengths you need for maybe $.50 a cut or so. Cheaper than buying a saw if you donāt have one. It may not be the prettiest approach, but I think itād be sturdy, inexpensive and would still allow freedom to store things under the bed. The only space youād lose is directly between the 4 center feet. This could be done between the feet at the head and foot of the bed too if you wanted. It would depend on how much bracing you need. Iām going to try and attach a pic of the grip tie Iām referring to, hopefully I succeed. Hope this helps.
The legs seem to be bending only from lifting the bed, not sliding it. I also āinstalledā some Self Adhesive Carpet Sliders Under each leg. So now it is easy to move and / or slide the bed around to make the bed, etc.
The frame actually has 8 legs. 1 on each corner and 4 across the middle. So the 2 middle metal support bars actually have their own leg in the center. So they probably will not bend or flex. I am thinking I need a brace between the 4 middle legs and that part you listed may work well. I will look into it.
Hi MrM1, thanks - that pic you posted is what I was trying to describe, that made it a lot clearer. Not sure you need the braces in terms of the bed frame not being strong enough. It would ultimately depend on where you notice the weak spots or directions where it seems like it needs to be more stable for your own peace of mind. Usually 2x4x8 studs run under $3 and would be plenty to span that distance cut to fit between the 4 center legs like your diagram shows. Those fasteners I posted a pic of are around $2/ea or under, so that would be maybe $12 total. Even if the store had to do the cuts for you and charged a nominal fee, I think youād still be at under $20. Those carpet sliders will also help a lot.
Yes ā¦ a break in and adjustment period is typical for any mattress (see post #2 here). You would also probably notice some small impressions with any natural fiber material and you would also likely also notice some unevenness across the surface if your foundation doesnāt have a flat and rigid surface because the latex will adapt to the contours of the surface.
Phoenix[/quote]
Not trying to be contrary, but the more I looked at the bed with the comforter on, and seeing the larger body impression where I lay, the smaller where the wife lays ā¦ I decided to check the idea that the natural fibers had started to compress. With nothing on the bed but the mattress protector/pad there was definitely an impression, especially where I lay. I took off the protector and rotated it 180*. This should have caused the impression to switch sides. It did not.
Next I took off the protector and inspected the mattress cover. The impression was more pronounced on my side. Is it the cover? Well i unzipped the cover and looked across the surface of the Soft Latex 3" comfort layer. I could still see Impression - Ridge - Impression. With the deeper impression on my side.
I then pulled off the comfort layer, flipped my half of the core to firm side up / Medium side down. Wifeās side was still firm side down / Medium side up. I then rotated the comfort layer (not flipped) 180*. Surely this would cause the larger impression to now be situated on my side. But it did not. ??? :blink:
What is going on? I know the foundation is now very firm and level. It was re-designed 2 days ago with 1x4 slats spaced 2"s part. I am wondering if this ālow spotā on my side is due to the Core? This is the only thing I have not switched. I have rotated and flipped the cores, but never switched them - Hers on his side and His or her side.
Will see how it sleeps tonight for me with the firm side of the core now facing up and the Medium layer being on the bottom. Still woke up with Center back spine pain. This have been going on for the past 6 nites.
I think the best way to check would be by pulling a string across the top of the layers. I would probably take the mattress off the the frame and lay it on the flattest surface possible (preferably a hard wood floor) and pull the string across one layer of foam at a time and utilize a process of elimination. Normally they check impressions from side to side but i donāt think it matters as long as the string is over the area with the impression. The string will need to be pulled taught this should give you a good idea if and what is failing.
I read the thread and realize you got jammed up with that frameā¦ but IMO it still looks like your weakest link. Iām sure Phoenix can get into a bit more detail. I pretty sure when i created my thread he corrected when i thought most of the weight would be in the middle of the bed by saying that most of the weight would be carried by the edges. I did have a foundation on top of my frame, but still the way you only have legs on the corners leaves me to believe that the side tubes could be possibly sagging or flexing. Just my 2 cents ā¦ i am by no means an expert. But you have a very well written post and i wish you luck with your mattress and frame and i hope you work this out ā¦ but at least others are benefiting.
Actually there are 8 legs. 1 on each corner = 4. And 4 across the middle = 1 on each side (2) + 1 on each of the 2 center cross member supports.
Thus I feel that while the Foundation HAD a week link in itās 3 equally spaced flexing slat zones, it is now a firm foundation and actually quite sturdy and level.
But I think the next time I take it apart I will follow your lead and check each layer / section independently on a flat level floor with a string. If it turns out that that there is an impression, would this qualify as a manufacture defect? (I doubt it :unsure: )
While itās unlikely ā¦ itās always possible to have a defective latex layer ā¦ I would add a ādittoā to TandLās comments about testing whether your layers are defective or have impressed. They would each need to be placed on a flat surface like the floor and then checked for impressions with a straight edge or a string across the surface.
If one of your layers is defective then you would be able to replace it within 30 days under their exchange policy.
Defective is normally defined by the manufacturerās warranty and for most āregularā mattresses would be about 1.5" of sag and for most non quilted latex mattresses would be about .75" (latex mattresses with quilting would be more because the quilting will compress and this wouldnāt be a defect).
Some manufacturers that sell component layers will often use 1/4" - 1/2" per layer as their definition of ādefectiveā.
In your case though there isnāt an actual manufacturer or warranty because you purchased individual layers not a mattress so you would only be covered by the 30 day return policy.
The chance that your layers are defective would be low but if it turns out that one of them is then I would talk to Val about replacing it.
That is what I am thinking too - not going to find a problem ā¦ but I probably wanna check and make sure.
On a bright note, I know I made changes to the layers too early (only after 7 days), but nite 8 of sleep was perfect. On my side I moved the firm layer up into the center layer - creating a stack from Bottom to Top of Medium / Firm / Soft - and this worked well for me.
I thought maybe when I purchased the mattress that I would probably buy a topper too ā¦ that is why I only bought a 9" unit, so I could add 2 inches or so on top and still not be too tall. So time will tell if I want the topper or not, but as of now, things are feeling and looking pretty great
