Ok, so âwaking up refreshedâ isnât quite the case. Youâre waking up with right knee pain. [/quote]
Actually it is/was the case until I started to ârollâ ⌠And still is. I am thinking the knee pain is the sleeping position ⌠not entirely sure. I do not wake up with it, so much as I have been having it thru the day more and more lately. Actually the knee pain has been on going ⌠so even if it is the bed ⌠the bed has not cause it, but at worst aggravates it.
[quote=âLJGMDADâ post=50440]
The more transparency on forums like this, the better for everyone.[/quote]
Trying to Journal the Journey the best I can (good / bad / and ugly) and hopefully help someone else along their way make a better decisions. I have no ties or loyalties to M247 ⌠I pulled the trigger after an extensive search to save some coin. And have wanted others to know how it has worked out - both in the area of a multi layer Talalay bed in general and M247 specifically.
Actually I think sleeping positions are some what controllable (Iâm not a control freak ⌠more of a control enthusiast) . But yeah ⌠its just a matter of starting off in the better position. I still do not have to resort back to the âalmost-on-my-backâ position of the Foam/Spring set up of Olâ . The ideal had been reached in getting the latex. I just started to slide into more of a stomach position after several months. I have started in the past few weeks to roll back a touch ⌠but honestly ⌠My knees / knee is just cranky. Might have something to do with being a cyclists too.
Ok, so âwaking up refreshedâ isnât quite the case. Youâre waking up with right knee pain. [/quote]
Actually it is/was the case until I started to ârollâ ⌠And still is. I am thinking the knee pain is the sleeping position ⌠not entirely sure. I do not wake up with it, so much as I have been having it thru the day more and more lately. Actually the knee pain has been on going ⌠so even if it is the bed ⌠the bed has not cause it, but at worst aggravates it.
[/quote]
Hey Iâm just saying as a reader it started to get confusing the way you were heaping praise on a product while at the same time talking about wanting to change the characteristics of it due to being in pain. Itâs great that you have no affiliation with M247, and now after clarification itâs clear that your mattress seems to be causing pain in a certain sleeping position.
I am also going to try to chronicle my experience with Flexus, time permitting. I looked at M247 and shied away from zoned latex because Iâm a back sleeper and it seem best (to me) for side sleepers, plus I was concerned itâd be a lot more difficult to âget rightâ. I also figure that latex will sort of naturally zone itself, if you will, over time anyhow. Parts of the body that are heavier will soften their zones of the latex more than the lighter parts of your body will. I also wanted a warranty that was going to be hassle free. I figure Flexus might go out of business before their non-prorated warranty expires - in fact they probably will. But at least as long as they are around, Iâll be covered. For whatever that ends up being worth.
I actually wonder if more firmness - not softness - would help prevent the roll. You say it started happening after several months. Well in that time the mattress itself has become softer from breaking in.
Just to chime in here ⌠based on reading all of his posts I think that MrM1 has been unusually fair and balanced and detailed in his comments and feedback about his mattress and sleeping experience both positive and negative. Sometimes itâs not possible to predict how you will feel on a mattress months down the road if something changes (especially if itâs not connected to the mattress) and I donât see the same contradictions in his comments and feedback that you do.
It may be worth trying a body pillow which can often help people that sleep in a forward leaning side position by keeping them in a less twisted or âforward leaningâ position and still having the âcomfortâ of feeling something against their stomach.
@ CosmicHam,
Many local manufacturers or retailers legitimately treat the ILD of their layers as being proprietary because âcomfort specsâ have little to do with the quality of a mattress and with careful testing your body will tell you what you need to know about whether the mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP. They are also well aware that the only reason that a customer would generally want or need to know this type of information is because they are trying to duplicate the mattress somewhere else.
If you were able to find out the ILD range (ILD isnât exact) or the density of their layers (density is a comfort spec with latex) then another mattress with layers that were the same type and blend of latex and the same thickness and that had a similar cover and quilting (the cover/quilting can have a significant effect on the feel and performance of a mattress) would be closely equivalent regardless of the manufacturer of the Dunlop latex.
There are many DIY latex resellers, and just keep in mind that M247 (on Ebay) is mostly selling a speciality product - zoned latex, in addition to some natural Talalay. By the way, what are the DIY latex resellers doing with used latex that comes back in returns? It is illegal to resell used mattresses, but if itâs just latex - not a mattress, perhaps they can just turn around and sell someoneâs used/returned latex to you! Who knows. But something to consider. Iâm not sure how all the DIY latex resellers handle this.
I also tried Ikea mattresses, and found them very firm. They are probably a good base for a softer comfort layer that youâd add yourself. But at that point itâs far less economical, and just simply buying a mattress with return/swap opportunities from one of the many great online dealers seems to be a better choice - in my opinion of course.
Itâs actually not illegal to sell used mattresses ⌠just to sell them without the appropriate law tag for the state you live in (see post #2 here and post #2 here and the posts they link to).
Different DIY sellers would handle this in different ways (see post #2 here for some of the possibilities) but there arenât as many exchanged or returned layers as most people would expect since most people are happy with their original choice. No reliable seller with a good reputation to maintain would take the risk of selling a used layer without letting a customer know that they were receiving a used or exchanged layer ⌠the risks would be too high. Having said that ⌠there are also many customers that would gladly purchase a used layer for a discount if they happened to be available.
A reliable seller will give you truthful information about exchanged or returned layers.
In the specific case of Mattresses 24/7 they used to sell layers that were comfort exchanges years ago (and disclosed it in their descriptions at the time) but they no longer do and all the layers they sell now are new.
Itâs actually not illegal to sell used mattresses ⌠just to sell them without the appropriate law tag for the state you live in (see post #2 here and post #2 here and the posts they link to).
Different DIY sellers would handle this in different ways (see post #2 here for some of the possibilities) but there arenât as many exchanged or returned layers as most people would expect since most people are happy with their original choice. No reliable seller with a good reputation to maintain would take the risk of selling a used layer without letting a customer know that they were receiving a used or exchanged layer ⌠the risks would be too high. Having said that ⌠there are also many customers that would gladly purchase a used layer for a discount if they happened to be available.
A reliable seller will give you truthful information about exchanged or returned layers.
In the specific case of Mattresses 24/7 they used to sell layers that were comfort exchanges years ago (and disclosed it in their descriptions at the time) but they no longer do and all the layers they sell now are new.
Phoenix[/quote]
OK, Plush Beds did tell me directly that selling used mattresses is illegal. I suppose the meant selling them as new without disclosing they were used, or representing them as new? I guess that falls under the general category of fraud? I donât know.
When I asked most places what they do with returns, I was most usually told that they do things like cut them up and sell them to people who make other furniture etc with them.
MrM1 let there be no doubt that what youâve shared here has been a big help to those of us wandering in the wilderness. Comfort is such a completely subjective thing that itâs not surprising that your account might seem contradictory at times. I can see being conflicted like that myself while trying to dial in the right combination. Itâs a journey and I found your account of it valuable. To answer your question the possibility of piecing together my own combo from Mattresses247 stock was the reason I started following your thread in the first place. And while they have been very helpful, unfortunately their product line is substantially different from what I have available locally which makes ordering from them more of a crapshoot than I am comfortable with at this point. But that may change.
LJGMDAD: I was thinking the same thing about using a comfort layer on top of the IKEA mattress. Iâm sure that would work if I found the IKEA mattress too firm. Unfortunately I found it to be not quite firm enough so Iâm not sure that can be fixed by adding a layer. It occurs to me that the floor model at the IKEA store has been tested thousands of times and may have softened as a result. There is no way to know except to buy one but their no return policy is a deal killer for me. So far anyway.
Phoenix: I understand what youâre saying about proprietary information, but I donât agree that withholding ILD numbers is a legitimate practice. Refusing to divulge the ILD numbers is akin to a shoe salesman refusing to tell me the size of the shoes he wants to sell me. Of course Iâm comparison-shopping. That has to be expected in retail. Their attempt to save the sale by hiding information has backfired because now I refuse to buy from them on principle. They would not trust me with the information I needed to make an informed choice and I view that as pretty much an admission that they are not competitive.
Sorry for any typos Iâm doing this from my phone
*** This post is a reply to post #83 here and was split into a new topic ***
Hi MrM1,
When you are buying a pair of shoes the shoe size is only one of many factors that will determine whether a shoe works well for a particular person and many other factors (such as the width of the shoe and the shape of the shoe and the style of the shoe) will also be just as important a part of whether a particular shoe is a good âmatchâ for a particular person. When I buy shoes I will sometimes buy 11 1/2 and sometimes 12 and sometimes neither one works for me depending on the manufacturer and the specifics of the shoe. In other words knowing the size of a shoe doesnât provide me with any additional information about whether a particular shoe will âworkâ for me that I donât already know by trying it on and walking in it.
Shoe sizes are also much more specific than ILD numbers in most cases and ILD is also only one of several specs that makes one material feel softer or firmer than another (see post #4 here) and the ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also arenât directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here) so putting too much focus on ILD alone can be more misleading than helpful although many consumers donât understand this and tend to focus more on ILD in the belief that it is more important than it really is.
So while I understand your point and I am also one of the biggest advocates of transparency in the industry ⌠I also have enough experience to know that it has nothing to do with the quality or durability of a mattress and like a shoe size it wonât provide any additional or meaningful information that you wouldnât already know by carefully testing the mattress in person or that would make any meaningful difference in making an âinformed choiceâ when you are buying a mattress locally and in many cases consumers that put undue focus or too much trust in ILD numbers will end up making a worse choice than they would if they knew nothing about ILD at all.
Okay but the way to handle it was to explain it just as you did. This this person actually got testy and said âthe only reason you would want those numbers is to shop somewhere else.â
Sometimes the way you deliver a message matters more than the message itself.
Ok but the way to handle it was to explain it just as you did. This person actually got testy and said âthe only reason you would want those numbers is to shop somewhere elseâ.
Sometimes how you deliver a message is more important than the message itself.
Oh, and if after hearing the explanation the customer still insists on having those numbers you gain nothing by refusing. The customer is always in charge of what they spend their money on. Even if itâs for the wrong reasons.
[quote]Okay but the way to handle it was to explain it just as you did. This this person actually got testy and said âthe only reason you would want those numbers is to shop somewhere else.â
Sometimes the way you deliver a message matters more than the message itself. [/quote]
I completely agree with you here and sometimes saying what you say politely, accurately, and with a âsmileâ in your tone can make all the difference
This is a conversation that Iâve had many times with retailers or manufacturers that I know and there are many good retailers that I highly respect that would rather lose a sale than sell a mattress for all the wrong reasons or sell something that a consumer âthinks they wantâ but clearly wouldnât be suitable for them only to have it come back to them after a sale. These types of purchases often cause more harm to a retailer than most consumers would realize and most knowledgeable and experienced manufacturers/retailers generally breathe a sigh of relief when a customer that is focused on all the âwrongâ information or on information that can lead to poor choices end up buying elsewhere. They generally take the approach that they have âdodged a bulletâ although once again âhowâ they say what they say can make all the difference.
This is also very different from dealing with a retailer or manufacturer that wonât disclose information that is an important part of making an informed choice or even worse doesnât have the knowledge and experience to even know what is important and what isnât in the first place.
[quote=âPhoenixâ post=50510]Hi CosmicHam,
⌠there are many good retailers that I highly respect that would rather lose a sale than sell a mattress for all the wrong reasons or sell something that a consumer âthinks they wantâ but clearly wouldnât be suitable for them only to have it come back to them after a saleâŚ
Phoenix[/quote]
Good point and one I can relate to.
It will be helpful if the industry comes up with standards that are adequate for comparison, assuming thatâs even possible. And now Iâm stepping out lest I be accused of hijacking the thread! Thanks again for your devotion to this work.
I decided to split the last few posts into a new topic of its own since I think it deserves it and as you mentioned it was starting to wander from the subject of the original topic where we were posting.
LJGMDAD: I was thinking the same thing about using a comfort layer on top of the IKEA mattress. Iâm sure that would work if I found the IKEA mattress too firm. Unfortunately I found it to be not quite firm enough so Iâm not sure that can be fixed by adding a layer. It occurs to me that the floor model at the IKEA store has been tested thousands of times and may have softened as a result. There is no way to know except to buy one but their no return policy is a deal killer for me. So far anyway. [/quote]
Itâs all relative. Compared to other mattresses that I liked better, the Ikea was less refined and less forgiving. It just wasnât for me and I resigned myself to the notion that getting what I wanted involved a different price point altogether. And I feel as though I may have an unusual luxury of many organic and natural mattress retailers near by from which to sample. It probably has something to do with the high hippie population in my neck of the woods. :silly:
Right. And actually itâs not a question of legitimacy at all. Afterall, what theyâre doing is perfectly legit. It isnât illegal. It isnât even unethical. Itâs perfectly within their rights to do. No, itâs a question of business practices, and quite frankly those particular practices donât win my business. See some companies just donât know what business theyâre in, and this phenomenon is not unique to the mattress industry. But situations like you describe illustrate it perfectly. Those folks think theyâre in the business of selling latex mattresses, or in the proprietary comfort layer business, or in the secret mattress formula business, etc, etc. Theyâre not. In reality, theyâre in the business of winning and keeping customers. And thatâs it. Nothing more, nothing less. So if their product is so great, then they should present it to me based on its merits, at a competitive price, and stop keeping secrets. Then, and only then, do they have a chance at my current and/or ongoing business. But if they want to play games⌠see ya!!!
In Life ⌠Your Perception often becomes Your âRealityâ. If your perception is skewed ⌠Your reality will be a deception.
This was the case with my M247 Latex bed and my knees. After 7 1/2 months of sleeping on the bed, for the past 3 months ⌠my knees had begun to hurt ⌠mostly along the outsides and back of the knee. So I began to think about - actually âover-thinkâ about - how I was sleeping in the bed. I did discover that the Latex bed was allowing me to sleep in a position that had eluded me in spring beds (see above for more detail) ⌠but long story short, I began to believe / perceive that this new side position was causing me to sleep with my lower leg nearly upside down and hyper-extending my knee. Thus the knee pain.
Now I have learned ⌠This is NOT the case and the knee issue is NOT the bed at all. So what was happening?
Well, back in Oct a made I slight change to my Road Bike - I moved my saddle up about 1/2 of an inch ⌠if you are not a cyclist you may not realize, but sight changes can make big differences. I did not ride much after that change. November found me in a complete kitchen remodel. December got me into the holidays. I rode probably 300 miles total between Nov 1 and Jan 15 ⌠not much. At the end of January I registered for a 100 mile charity ride in May. So in February I began to train for the ride. In March I stepped up my game and have ridding nearly 300 miles in March alone.
For whatever reason ⌠about 10 days ago i checked my saddle height with a tape measure, thinking I might want to raise it a bit more. What i discovered, was back in Oct I had actually set my saddle about 1" higher than my calculated saddle height and and higher than i had ever ridden it before. Well ⌠if you know cycling ⌠you know where this is going. If your saddle is too high ⌠you WILL Hyper-Extend your legs and it will wreak havoc on your IT bands. BINGO !!
I lowered the saddle back down to my calculated height ⌠and 10 days and 100 miles later ⌠Knee pain is gone. It was not the mattress at all. It was cause and effect. But I had the wrong cause.
Before I realized it was not the bed ⌠I did order a Talalay 2" soft 15 ILD topper. It arrives today. I still do not think I will be disappointed with it as I had been looking at a topper all along for this bed ⌠but the problem with my knee was never the support of the bed at all, and I stand behind my evaluation of this Latex bed, That for me ⌠Latex does provide excellent sleep and comfort.
For what its worth ⌠found a great deal on the topper at Ultimate Sleep. Best price I could find on Talalay. Iâll let you know how it ends up and if the quality of this topper is any good.
Having done a fair bit of long distance bycycle touring myself (on a custom built touring bike) I can appreciate the effect of seat height (and many other relatively small adjustments) ⌠over longer rides especially.
Just donât be too surprised when you receive it that itâs not Talalay latex (see post #4 here).
Just donât be too surprised when you receive it that itâs not Talalay latex (see post #4 here).
Phoenix[/quote]
Well thatâs a drag ⌠the seller when asked claimed that it was. I purchased it from their eBay store ⌠but for the price off their web site (eBay Store was higher priced). So assuming it might be Dunlop and not Talalay ⌠is the âsoftnessâ going to be much different. I was wanting the softest topper I could find. This is suppose to have an ILD of 15-19.
Assuming that the ILD range is accurate and was tested in the same way as a Talalay 6" core (which isnât always the case ⌠see post #6 here) then for most people a Dunlop topper would feel a little firmer than a Talalay topper that was the same thickness and in the same ILD range.
Ok so the 2" soft 15-19 ILD topper arrived. Pretty nice. It is a cal King and measures spot on. But there are no seams in the horizontal surface. No center seam and no 4" add on seam at the bottom. The only seam I can see is a seam where the whole piece looks like it was made from TWO 1 inch pieces of latex.
Also have no way of knowing if it is blended Talalay. I had asked the seller and was told it was, but there are no indications of this on the packing slip, material or topper itself. It does have pin holes, but they are in rows about 3"s apart. But what is odd is even though there appears to be a seam ⌠The holes look like they were put in after The 2 pieces were glued.
