That’s a lot of information to digest. The more you know…
What type of bed do you sleep on that matches well with a down pillow? I’m not sold on down because of the price unless it truly can last a long time. Seems like a good quality shredded latex might still be an option here with replacement every 2-3 years. I did note that all the other pillows on St. Geneve say they’ll last “years” and are backed by a 5 year warranty while only James Bay pillows state they’ll last generations.
Oh, and I completely understand how one pillow might feel comfortable one night and a different one feels better another. It probably has to do with the physical stress we put our bodies and necks through that day, but that’s conjecture.
I’m on a natural latex mattress. 9" of Dunlop with organic wool and cotton mattress cover. It happens to be Green Sleep, though I don’t imagine that is especial significant as it relates to pillows.
The memory foam pillow is the zedbed breeze. I also have 2 sleeptek organic wool pillows, where the wool isn’t carded/combed … It’s basically raw (cleaned) wool. I enjoy those wool pillows when they feel nice, but I found it was a huge hassle to keep them lofty and feeling even (clumps form and they compress easily and unevenly, I was waking up several times a night to shake, roll, and otherwise re-poof and break up clumps with those the pillows).
As a summary:
I own, and regularly sleep on the down pillow, firm ($400)
I own, and regularly sleep on the zedbed breeze cooling memory foam ($200)
I own, but don’t regularly use a wool pillow (firm, or medium) (about $120 each)
I don’t own, but tried and didn’t enjoy, shredded latex (sleeptek)
i don’t own, but tried and didn’t enjoy, shredded memory foam (zedbed)
I haven’t tried, but want to, crescent moons alpaca wool
I haven’t tried (regretfully), and really want to try, a good solid(not shredded) latex pillow
Good quality shredded latex will last a lot longer than 2 or 3 years. Latex is a very durable material and will maintain its resiliency for a very long time.
FWIW … while I also change from time to time … a shredded latex pillow is what I’m currently sleeping on. It’s a little less “bouncy” than a solid latex pillow and is “scrunchable”.
Making our first post as a business on the forum just because our website got linked to a lot for this thread, hopefully I can clear up some of the remaining questions in comparing down.
Fill power like dn has noted is not technically a measure of firmness. It is really just a measure of loft which means a specific weight of down fills up more and more volume as the fill power increases. Higher fills equate to much more durable down filaments, typically better breathability, insulation and ultimately higher resistance to permanent compression abuses. When it comes to pillows the fill power is probably the most important thing. Which is why at TMASC we usually sell the Lajord pillows which have a very high loft but not the crazy price of something like an Eiderdown.
Larger birds produce larger down clusters, the bigger the bird the bigger the down clusters tend to be. This is why Goose down actually has a higher peak loft rating than what Eiderdown can test at. Typically 800~850 is as high as the loft goes for Goose down for the largest farm raised birds, higher can be achieved by hand sorting the fills and only selecting the largest and most mature clusters although this process is very time consuming so its rare to see this. Some cheaper pillows can also have loft ratings this high, it is typically artificially inflated by chemical treatments that blow up the down clusters beyond what normal conditions allow and the enhanced loft is quickly diminished with compression.
Eiderdown may only hit around 700 loft at the absolute maximum which is why in a pillow fill it is not actually as good as a high end down, typically the only pillows that I think St. Geneve sells that are better than Lajord as a pillow fill is the Salzburg pillow and the new Stromberg pillow which is not currently on our website. Eiderdown however is unbelievably soft so if someone wants the softest possible pillow I suppose it still has its place for those that wish to drop that kind of money on a pillow.
Where Eiderdown truly shines is it’s insulation qualities, it is much better used in a duvet than in a pillow. Eiderdown insulates at a level much higher than it’s fill power suggests because of the phenomenal density and cling of the down. It literally ‘sticks’ to itself so well that it does not shift hardly at all inside the individual baffles of a duvet. Anyway I know I am going off topic because this is a pillow thread, just thought it might deserve mentioning why we truly carry this unique product.
Back to Goose down comparisons, as mentioned the size of the bird determines primarily the loft, there are some other misconceptions like the climate the bird is raised in, if the birds live farther up north, they do not grow larger down clusters, they simply grow more clusters. Goose down with further maturing can continue to develop higher density and cling which improve the insulation qualities as well as resistance to compression, older birds are more expensive to raise (say farm raising a bird for 10 years instead of 1 or 2), this is why some fills can be very expensive in addition to more costly sorting methods typically being employed for these downs. James Bay down is the highest quality goose down in the world with regards to duvet fills because the density and cling are superior to farm raised birds which do not typically live as long. The fill power of James Bay down is not typically as high though because they are not farm raised birds and do not grow to become the same size as a bird that has access to a totally consistent feed supply.
Regarding the guarantees from St. Geneve the fills are all guaranteed hypoallergenic because of St. Geneve’s cleaning system and are all guaranteed for the same time. The 5 year guarantee on their pillows is strictly the workmanship (the integrity of the pillow fabric shell itself). The hypoallergenic guarantee I believe is a pretty brief window of about 30 days or so. This is because they cannot control the environment in which the pillows are used in. Although if it is a legitimate down allergy you would know on the first night or 2. We have in our history been called to honour this guarantee one time and we had St. Geneve take some down products back, although this was also in a home that I knew was going through renovations it honestly may not have been a legitimate issue but we rarely like to argue lol. If someone was really worried about allergies I always recommend just buying one pillow to test at first as a courtesy to us so we don’t buy back multiple pillows and a duvet all at once
Sorry for the small novel, I hope it can help to make sense of the descriptions you see on our website. Our verbiage may not be 100% consistent on our site so I will look to try and make some adjustments.
Thanks for sharing some great information. You are one of the most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to fabrics and bedding materials and I appreciate the information you have the chance to share on the forum.
For those that read this as well TMASC will also be listed later today as an official member of the site so let me be the first to say … Welcome to The Mattress Underground
Daniel, feel free to go off topic a bit! This is all good information, thank you. Since a duvet with down insulates so well, how does a down pillow also cool/breath well in the summer? To my knowledge, the insulation from down should be from trapped air. What is the typical lifespan of these pillows like the Lajord?
Phoenix, which shredded latex pillow are you using and which brands would you recommend taking a look at?
To answer my own question earlier, and stupid of me not to have looked sooner, St. Geneve, at least, products for USA purchasers are listed here on their website: http://www.stgeneve.com/where_to_buy/usa.htm
[quote]
a shredded latex pillow is what I’m currently sleeping on. It’s a little less “bouncy” than a solid latex pillow and is “scrunchable”.[/quote]
Those are exactly the type of features I am looking for which led me to investigate them. I fear down may be too soft (although, looks like there is a Duxiana in NJ not too far from here so I may see if they’ll let me test St. Geneve pillows) and I will need that adjustability.
That is an excellent question, the heat from your body becomes trapped in the tiny micropockets of air that down creates, it does not however trap humidity. The oils in the down (assuming they are still there if the down was cleaned correctly) repel the humidity which is actually what prevents overheating. That being said down duvets are warm, some people that are exceptionally hot sleepers may prefer silk fills however down has by far the broadest temperature range of any fill for use in a duvet. Meaning it is typically lighter and more breathable in the summer to prevent overheating and much warmer in the winter and doing so with much less weight on top of the body which aids a more restful sleep. Polyester for instance is a very poor insulator and yet everyone knows that on summer nights a polyester filled comforter is one of the hottest things to sleep with, this is due to its inability to deal with humidity.
I have had a couple come to buy St. Geneve pillows from me. They specifically wanted St. Geneve as they received some as a wedding gift 14 years ago, they finally decided that they wanted to replace them. Eventually the down gets a little tired and will not completely re-loft as much as it did when new. Realistically if they had machine washed and dried the pillows they would have gotten even more use out of them. They bought the detergent off of me but they still wanted to get brand new pillows as well. I typically tell people its reasonable to expect 10 years if we got the right firmness off the bat.
Down duvets if properly cared for will last a LOT longer than a pillow.
I hope if it doesn’t sound too self serving I would like to mention that for St. Geneve products we can sell into the USA (with the exception of the James Bay down). My brother Dylan typically handles our US sales but we have yet to launch our US website which is in the pipeline, we just want to do it right or we won’t do it at all
[quote=“[email protected]” post=25617]That is an excellent question, the heat from your body becomes trapped in the tiny micropockets of air that down creates, it does not however trap humidity. The oils in the down (assuming they are still there if the down was cleaned correctly) repel the humidity which is actually what prevents overheating. That being said down duvets are warm, some people that are exceptionally hot sleepers may prefer silk fills however down has by far the broadest temperature range of any fill for use in a duvet. Meaning it is typically lighter and more breathable in the summer to prevent overheating and much warmer in the winter and doing so with much less weight on top of the body which aids a more restful sleep. Polyester for instance is a very poor insulator and yet everyone knows that on summer nights a polyester filled comforter is one of the hottest things to sleep with, this is due to its inability to deal with humidity.
I have had a couple come to buy St. Geneve pillows from me. They specifically wanted St. Geneve as they received some as a wedding gift 14 years ago, they finally decided that they wanted to replace them. Eventually the down gets a little tired and will not completely re-loft as much as it did when new. Realistically if they had machine washed and dried the pillows they would have gotten even more use out of them. They bought the detergent off of me but they still wanted to get brand new pillows as well. I typically tell people its reasonable to expect 10 years if we got the right firmness off the bat.
Down duvets if properly cared for will last a LOT longer than a pillow.
I hope if it doesn’t sound too self serving I would like to mention that for St. Geneve products we can sell into the USA (with the exception of the James Bay down). My brother Dylan typically handles our US sales but we have yet to launch our US website which is in the pipeline, we just want to do it right or we won’t do it at all :)[/quote]
Not self-serving at all. You should let St. Geneve know so they can list you in their US sales section. Thanks for all the information. If I can ever make a decision, I’ll private message you or use the “contact us” on your website.
Why is the St. James Down regulated for no sale outside of Canada anyway?
It’s very soft and “down like” (although of course latex isn’t down so this is more of a metaphor) but also resilient and there is no feel of having “pieces” of latex inside it … probably because of the type of latex pieces they use are consistent in shape and very soft. I like it better than the zoned malouf high loft plush latex pillow I was using previously (which I also liked). It comes in different sizes and with different fill levels.
They also now have a pure performance version which has a zip cover and extra lanoodles so you can customize the fill level.
I don’t have any significant personal experience with any other shredded latex pillows so I can’t make any specific suggestions because the type and softness of the latex pieces and the fill level could also change the feel of the pillow and pillows are a very subjective and preference based choice so I tend to look for features or materials that are attractive (much like mattresses) rather than specific brands. A shredded latex pillow that has an adjustable fill level seems like a very good idea to me because it can be customized for those who need to adjust it.
